Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Cabernet and Pray, the podcast where we explore Christianity through the beauty of wine. This is episode 23, and today is so, so good. It is. I mean, I like them all for different reasons, but today was a special one, because today I get to have one of my mentors for over a decade. I don't even know how many years it's been now, but for a long time now, a theological mentor of mine who has helped me work through so many different subjects and ways of understanding God, and ultimately, I would conclude, have arrived at a much more beautiful Jesus looking God through all of it. And his name is Greg Boyd, and share a little bit about Greg. He's been the senior pastor of Woodland Hills church in Minnesota for 32 years. He's married to Shelly for 45 years, and they have three adult kids and six grandkids.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:56]:
He has written a bunch of stuff on the episode. I asked him if he even knew how many books it is. He guessed 23 ish, so we'll go with that. He's a drummer in a band called not Dead yet, which is pretty great. Craig has been featured throughout his career in the New York Times, CNN, NPR, and the BBC. And in 2010, he was listed as one of the 20 most influential living christian scholars. This guy is brilliant, but he's not stuffy. And as you quickly realize in this episode, Greg is a wild ride.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:01:35]:
It is one of the reasons I love him so much. And this episode was absolutely a blast to record. I hope you enjoy it just half as much as I did enjoy episode 23 with Greg Boyd.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:36]:
All right, welcome to the podcast, my man, Greg Boyd.
Greg Boyd [00:03:41]:
Hello. Thanks for having me on.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:43]:
Oh, this is gonna be. This is gonna be so fun. Friends, for so many reasons. I have a deep love for Greg in my heart, and it's mutual. And I hope it comes through in this episode and that you all.
Greg Boyd [00:03:55]:
I love you. I love you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:58]:
Okay, before we begin, Greg, that sound means we need to talk about what we're drinking. So I'll go first. I'll explain what I'm drinking.
Greg Boyd [00:04:06]:
Okay.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:06]:
Then we'll invite you to offer your very professional wine critique of what's in your.
Greg Boyd [00:04:11]:
I'll be happy to offer it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:14]:
Okay. So today I am drinking. This was gifted to me. This is called the prisoner, and this is a pretty well known bottle, and I had never had it before, so a friend of mine gave it to me. Thank you to that friend. If you're watching or listening, this is a 2021 prisoner red wine blend from California. There's a number of grapes involved in this blend, primarily Zinfandel, cabernet. I'm getting a lot of really great flavors on this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:44]:
I'm getting fruit flavors like strawberry, BlackBerry, getting some raisin, and some fun things. Greg. I'm getting butterscotch and barbecue meats.
Greg Boyd [00:04:54]:
Barbecue meats in a wine?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:56]:
Yes. That's some. Some subtlety of the flavors I'm getting.
Greg Boyd [00:05:01]:
A vegetarian couldn't drink your wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:04]:
You definitely could. But if you may not enjoy that flavor. Right.
Greg Boyd [00:05:09]:
Well, I know my reasons for not eating meat have nothing to do with flavor I love.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:12]:
Okay, well, I just didn't know if it bring up, you know, any, like.
Greg Boyd [00:05:15]:
Flashbacks I could actually get the taste of meat in a glass.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:18]:
There you go. There you go.
Greg Boyd [00:05:19]:
You just cheating. So that you telling me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:22]:
Perfect. Okay. So what are you drinking today?
Greg Boyd [00:05:25]:
I decided for this show, as you know, I was going to drink, as you know, I'm not much of a wine drinker. And so I have a two dollar thing in my bottle in our cabinet that we've had since Christmas, and I thought, I'll just drink the rest of that. There's only about, like, this much left. And then you warned me that it would taste very, very, very bad. And so I went out and got, uh, this is Francis Coppola and his diamond collection.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:52]:
Okay.
Greg Boyd [00:05:53]:
At merlot 2020.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:55]:
Wow. You have, you have way exceeded my expectations already.
Greg Boyd [00:05:59]:
Well, you know, I went to the guy, I said, I don't know anything about wine. Would you pick out the something in the $20 range and tell me why it's good so I can sound smart on the show. I don't even know what these cactus are. So this is. Oh, well, our merlot has been fragrant. It has notes of plums, currents with an ants and anise with lively flavors of blueberry pie. So it tastes like anise with their anus.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:34]:
No, that's a nice.
Greg Boyd [00:06:40]:
Way I know, to pick them up, you know, and so I'm. It's. So he explained to me how this particular one, he thinks it's the best in this price range, blah, blah, blah. Because when you first taste it and then the, you taste the fruit, fruity part, kind of first blueberry comes up that's got hints of. It's supposed to have hints of this oak wood or something like that in there, but I can't. I. I think when it comes to my tongue, I'm kind of the equivalent of being colorblind. Like, it tastes good, but I can't, like, parse out why, you know? And, I mean, that just takes a lot of practice, but I can't do that with, with wine or scotch or anything.
Greg Boyd [00:07:21]:
I, you know, I. One time, this is my wine story. All right, leading off of this, because the best I got. But once upon a time, I knew some rich people. I, they never stick around very much, very lime. But they invited me to go out to dinner, and this guy ordered $190 bottle of wine. And, of course, you know, he explained that comes from all the reasons why it's $190. And so I have it, and it tasted good.
Greg Boyd [00:07:51]:
But if you asked me to distinguish that from a $20 a bottle thing, I couldn't do it. It's good. But it's not $170 better than this one.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:01]:
I understand.
Greg Boyd [00:08:03]:
But I guess if you are coincident of that, then, you know, it kind of has a. I will say that I didn't know if I jumped the gun a little bit because I wanted to try to practice this wine thing. And so is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on the show. I've never. Plus, I never drink during the day. I wait till night, you know, if I'm gonna have anything to drink.
Greg Boyd [00:08:26]:
Which is why I stopped drinking wine, because it interferes with my sleep. Whiskey and scotch, I'm fine. Bourbon, fine wine. I'll wake up after an hour sleep and feel all buzzing. But if you drink it at noon, I. You know. There you go.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:44]:
You know, Greg, that was amazing. Cheers. Cheers to you.
Greg Boyd [00:08:49]:
Yeah, it is smooth. I can say that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:57]:
So at the end of the day, here's what I tell people. There's. There's really only one question, and it boils down to, there are two types of wine. There are wines you like and wines you don't like. And you start there.
Greg Boyd [00:09:09]:
All of your boils down to those two questions.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:11]:
Do you like the wine? And if the answer is yes, great job. You. You pick the. You picked the right wine.
Greg Boyd [00:09:17]:
There you go. Good.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:19]:
Perfect.
Greg Boyd [00:09:20]:
And then I'll cut this to my refined taste in wine. I love it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:25]:
I love it.
Greg Boyd [00:09:26]:
Does anyone do something like this with cigars? Because I would think that'd be it. That'd be my thing. It's like, let's get on and. And talk about the cigar, you know? But then, see, it wouldn't work unless you're down where you live, where you can be outdoors, you're around. Because here, you know, you have to be indoors half the time. And no one smokes cigars indoors anymore. It's like no one.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:47]:
Not culturally appropriate.
Greg Boyd [00:09:49]:
Like it used to be in the fifties. And I'm glad, too, because it would stink up everything. But. But that'd be a fun time.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:55]:
I do have a few friends who are super into cigars and have joked about making their own, you know, their own communion wine company, but making it for cigar. So we'll see.
Greg Boyd [00:10:06]:
Holy smoke.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:10]:
That's brilliant.
Greg Boyd [00:10:11]:
Yeah, we got the holy smoke. Okay, we gotta look into this. Tell your friends I'm game. Plus, I. I need an excuse to smoke a cigar, okay? Otherwise, I feel guilty, you know, because they're expensive.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:24]:
So I if we spiritually wrap it up into something, then it's good.
Greg Boyd [00:10:30]:
Exactly. Give me enough reason I can become a drunk for Jesus.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:34]:
I love it. You know, I'm so proud of you. You are aging well, my friend. You are aging well.
Greg Boyd [00:10:40]:
Thanks for lying. But. But it. I don't know if age is kind to anybody, but it's been kind of brutal. I wouldn't recommend it. It really is not for the faint of heart, just physically. Everything starts falling to pieces. So don't get me going on that one.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:55]:
Okay, well, we'll move on to more fun topics. How about that?
Greg Boyd [00:10:59]:
We'll teach you wisdom in your old age as you learn how to deal with aches and pains. And you have to become more patient, and nothing works the way it's supposed to work.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:07]:
Well, that's a good segue. I want to ask you a question that I ask most of my guests.
Greg Boyd [00:11:12]:
All right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:13]:
And it's a. It's a good frame, like a reference for people who may not be super familiar with you to go, okay, who. Who are we talking to here? It also shows that faith is not something you know, you are born with or you arrive at when you first follow Jesus and then you white knuckle it to your grave. It is an ongoing learning and openness. And so the question is, if you look at the last ten years of your life, how has your faith changed over that. That span of time? Last ten years?
Greg Boyd [00:11:46]:
Gosh, man, I tell you, it's so. Six years ago, after I finished inspired imperfection, my last book, 2018, I really. I just didn't have any energy for academic reading or research anymore. I went back to projects that I had started, and I just. I felt like God was calling me to let go of that, at least for a time and to spend more time on myself. I'm working on my soul. You know, theology can be the greatest excuse for ignoring God. Ironically, it can.
Greg Boyd [00:12:27]:
You know, you're so busy thinking about God, you never take the time to get to know him. And so I spent. I have been, on average, spending an hour to an hour and a half a day just walking and meditating, praying, going out in nature, if possible. And man, it has had an incredible effect on my life just in terms of mellowing me out. I realized, looking back on it, I was very driven, and I always was driven for Jesus because I want to make as much a difference for the kingdom of God as possible. But as I've. You know, one of the things that happens when you spend enough time contemplating meditating praying is you start to get honest with yourself, or at least it's easier to get honest with yourself. And I've come to realize that a lot of that was bullshit.
Greg Boyd [00:13:10]:
I'm trying to make a name for myself, try to show people how smart I am. Just like, so much academics is like that. It's like, look at, you know, here's my new spin. Listen to me. Read this. And I just don't want to. It felt like a game. I don't want to be part of the game anymore.
Greg Boyd [00:13:25]:
At least it's not. It's not all a game. Things. God uses it. God uses everything. But it just wasn't what I, for me to be doing it, it felt like a game. And so one thing that has really changed is I am more honest with myself and with God. I am realizing much more of a sinner than I ever let myself to believe.
Greg Boyd [00:13:49]:
And I think that's true for most of us. We're not very good at having accurate perception of myself. I would say that I have become. Here's probably the major way. Most of my life, Jeremy was spent the most abused word, maybe in any language, but certainly in theology, the most abused word is mystery because it gets used to cover up any kind of piece of nonsense you want to cover up in any other discipline. If your belief system results in a contradiction, that's one indication that something's wrong with your belief system. But in theology, you get to say, oh, no, that's just a mystery. And I came to really loathe the word mystery.
Greg Boyd [00:14:32]:
I love mystery in the Bible because it's about the secret things of God and the mystery of Christ, whatever. But mystery as it's used in theology, I just got to. I became an anti mystery person, which means I became kind of a rationalist, and everything had to make sense, and. And God used that. And I think it's good to try to make sense as much as possible. You know, I know a lot of people who have had a second lease on life in their faith walk because finally something made sense. So there's a good use of that. I think mystery becomes just a fill in for sloppy thinking.
Greg Boyd [00:15:05]:
On the other hand, it meant that I didn't have a real positive relationship to mystery, and I was loath to really acknowledge the mystery that I have to accept in my belief system because it's all around. I just didn't want to really. I want to pretend like my. My belief system has way less mystery than anyone else's because I make sense out of things. But I don't even know what existence is. I don't even know what energy is. It goes beep, beep, beep on little kind of mechanism that we use, but we don't even know what existence is, let alone how the creators holding. I just become much more okay.
Greg Boyd [00:15:38]:
Acknowledging that I don't know shit. I really. We're preaching on that. This, this weekend, my message, that won't be the title of it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:15:48]:
I was gonna say is the title I don't know shit, because that would be great.
Greg Boyd [00:15:51]:
The title is upgrade your, um, vault. Oh, wow. Yes. It comes from, uh, last week's sermon by Emily Morris, who, Morrison, who who just did an outstanding message based on this book called an immense world by Ed Young. And, and, uh, he uses this concept of, um, vault, um, and that book, by the way, is, I know you love books, and you always list all that. And, man, you read a lot. I can't believe what you read. But you want to read this one.
Greg Boyd [00:16:17]:
It is so interesting. You don't know how little you know about nature till you read this book. Umvauld is simply any organism's experience of its environment through its senses. And it's our sensory bubble that we all have to live in. And it filters out most of reality, but allows us to experience a little bit of reality. And outside of our own vault, there's nothing but mystery. So. So the.
Greg Boyd [00:16:43]:
The sensory bubble that my dog lives in is way smaller than mine, although she picks up frequencies in hearing that I can't possibly pick up. And she. Her nose is a thousand times better than mine. But she doesn't know what algebra is or what the universe is, because I'm 95 million years more advanced than her. My brain has evolved 95 million years more, but my brain is still a bubble. I'm still locked in it into my five senses. I pick up only a fraction of the reality that's around me. And so imagine that suppose the world will go on for another 95 million years, and the brain continues to evolve those we will be to those beings.
Greg Boyd [00:17:21]:
If evolution continued that the same rate has been going, we'd have the intelligence of a dog in the same way that my dog can't understand algebra. The reality of algebra is outside of my dog's own vault. So also there'll be things that they know that I can't conceive of. And so when you realize that's just 95 million years, what if we went forward 900 million years, you know, and you begin to realize how little we know. And for me, it has helped really helped me get in touch, become appreciative and worshipful of God's transcendence. I've always much more emphasized God's closeness, and we visualize Jesus in our imagination, and that's called cataphatic prayer, where you pray with mental images, and I'm a strong believer in that. But there's also, it's called apathetic prayer, where you pray without images, and that's more about capturing the transcendence of God. And I've really been getting into that and.
Greg Boyd [00:18:17]:
Yeah, and just accepting the mystery of it all and being okay with, you know, I don't. I don't need to know. I have a map. Here's what I think is true. And at the center of the map is the cross, and the cross is the way of love. And, you know, the last ten years, I tell you, I. And this has been true for every new decade of my life, but the number of things I believe, the number of things I really believe gets fewer and fewer, and the number of things I care about get fewer and fewer. But those things that I believe and care about, I grow more and more firm in them.
Greg Boyd [00:18:50]:
It's like they're more precious to me. And so, yeah, it's a more of a minimalistic. A lot of the things that I used to think were so, so important, I now just see, is at best sort of kind of an interesting game of chess. It can't. The playing theology, like, you know, how does God know possibilities and the future? What works for me is I can't imagine. I can't conceive of how our free decisions are known as facts ahead of time. But having said that, I also, if you had, you say, well, time's just funky and God's timeless or whatever, as long as it doesn't negatively impact your relationship with God, who gives a rip? You know, like, at the end of the day, it's the impact it has in your life and then through you on the life of others. Otherwise, it's just plain chess.
Greg Boyd [00:19:43]:
You know, it's interesting, kind of an intellectual sparring.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:47]:
You know, the irony of listening to you say this is. I totally understand what you're saying, and I appreciate it, and I think it sounds beautiful the way you're describing, to give context. You are the most brilliant thinker about God I've ever encountered in my life.
Greg Boyd [00:20:03]:
Well, thank you. So you need to get out more?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:07]:
No, I've been out, Greg. That's the thing. And I've talked to a lot of people and, you know, I was telling my kids this morning, I was dropping them off at school and, you know, I was telling about this podcast today. I was just looking forward to it. And, you know, they're like, you know, tell us about Greg. And so I was, you know, sound like you're all over the place and you're fun and you're wild and you're not what people expect, I said, but you've also, over many years, walked through some really pivotal ideas with me as I was trying to make sense of a faith that I inherited, that I grew up in. But I got stuck in a lot of different things and I, I remember coming out of college with way more questions, you know, and going, I don't, I don't know how to, how to, like, keep going and started reading things. That's how I started reading your books and then discovered you and, you know, then we launched this whole journey together.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:54]:
But it is a bit ironic for you to say that the way your brain works, like, must be nice to be able to go to the summit and understand God in ways that, like, the rest of us just kind of scratch the surface of and then go, yeah, but who knows? Who cares?
Greg Boyd [00:21:11]:
Well, listen, I appreciate those kudos. That's really, you know, nice of you, you know, but Thomas Aquinas, he's the one who, he is the angelic doctor. He's called in church history, quintessential theologian. And he wrote, you know, these two volumes that are multi volume works, summa Theologica, summa contra gentilis, and they span, I mean, this enormous. He died at the age of, in his fifties, I think it was. But in his life, I mean, this, he wrote without parchment, these volumes, and they're brilliant. I mean, I have, somebody thinks he's talking nonsense and whatever, but, but he is the one who was most into all this. But just prior to the end of his life, he had some kind of an experience, and I've never looked into this deeply, but, but I.
Greg Boyd [00:22:02]:
To see what was all behind it. But he had, now, if I recall right, it would, it was some kind of epiphany that he had during a service, community service that he was leading. And he said, everything I've ever written is rubbish. He had this encounter with God. It's like everything is just rubbish. And maybe he just means so inadequate, you know, like, words don't come close to describing this, you know? But yeah, there is that kind of thing of just, there's a, we're, we're so arrogant if we think that we can be confident about. We know the ways of God. When you consider, like, where these little tiny microbes on those little tiny planets circling this helium ball itself is not.
Greg Boyd [00:22:52]:
It's pretty average as universe goes. The little helium ball is part of this galaxy of 2 billion helium balls. And that's one of 2 trillion galaxies so far as we know. And that keeps on growing and doubling every couple of years we get better. You know, we're so. We're the equivalent of a grain of sand on the planet earth and all the beaches of the world. And it's just got to humble us. I just find that.
Greg Boyd [00:23:19]:
But I find it be very freeing also. As long as I can trust that this God is love and just trust that the cross is the best indicator of the character of God, everything else just seems to me to be gravy. It's because if I can trust that, Jimmy, then God's going to do right by everyone and everything. Now I don't have to know what that's even going to look like. I don't even have to understand. It's enough for me to trust it. And then I can tell, I can offer opinions about what I think is the best option given that conviction. Well, what kind of hell do you want to, you know, is, do you think is most plausible given that God is love and what kind of, you know, so you can work those out, but all the time we're working those out.
Greg Boyd [00:24:10]:
We, I think, should be aware that we're dealing with a God who's so far, far beyond us. You know, it's even John in the book of Revelation. He talks about the one sitting on the throne. He never describes him. He says he has appearance of Jasper and Ruby. Well, that tells you a whole lot, doesn't it? It's like, whoa. You know, it's like indescribable. The infinitude of God, the God who has no bounds, who holds everything in existence moment by moment, every molecule throughout this entire year.
Greg Boyd [00:24:39]:
It's just. And so I think worship is very close to awe. And it's really good to work at having a conception of God that is awe inspiring. That's awesome.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:51]:
Well, it's well said and I appreciate your humility and your openness, and that is great. At the same time, I would say, and you have helped me with this, there are theologies and ways of understanding God that do not align with the person of Jesus and do not create a more loving version of people. And that's really damaging. That's a lot of Christianity. And so one of the things where I get passionate about is showing people no, God is better than you think and better than a lot of these classical, traditional ways of understanding God. Like, let's explore some of these. And then watching, you know, the scales go off people's eyes and they see this beauty a lot of times for the first time. And, you know, you've lived with these ideas for so long and, you know, the way I've, the way I've told people is you probably saved me a decade of time of how long it would have taken me if I wouldn't have had you in my life, you know, poking and prodding and asking good questions, that it would take me probably ten years to get to where I am today, longer.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:52]:
So I would have been ten years older to be here. And, uh, and I just grateful for that. And I try to be that role for others of, hey, let me show you the best of what I've seen. And, you know, humbly, like, I could be wrong, but, like, here's the best.
Greg Boyd [00:26:03]:
Of what I seen and claim is, like, here's the thing that makes the most sense to me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:26:07]:
Right, right.
Greg Boyd [00:26:08]:
And, and then you share it because it makes the most sense to others. But you are right. There's, there's theologies, you know, where people have got to have horrendous pictures of God, but they have to call that God loving because if they don't, that means that, that God's going to send them to hell. So it's a, you know, fear based kind of a thing. And so that's where the allowing, and this is, I think, how the New Testament portrays things. But allowing the cross to really redefine who God is because that's what the apostle Paul does. The cross is the power of God. That's just so unlike any kind of conception of power that anyone's ever ascribed to God.
Greg Boyd [00:26:45]:
You know, it's just one of the ways, you know, that it's true and inspires that human beings would never make that up, the cross of the power of God. So, yeah, it's. And that's a true mystery, I think, if we're using the word right, it's not just, you know, that which we can't figure out, but it's that which is awesomely beautiful. It's mysterious. Is Einstein even? He said that the contemplating mystery is, how do you put it? The highest. The highest experience one can possibly have is it's encountering the mystery, it's the otherness, the beyondness of God that is just. Yeah, awe inspiring.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:27:26]:
Okay, that was. That was question one. Okay, so I've got something super fun planned. I don't know how this is gonna go. I've never done this yet. We're gonna try something. Okay.
Greg Boyd [00:27:41]:
Oh, great.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:27:42]:
So I was thinking about, you know, you have, like I mentioned, you have been a massive theological mentor to me. You have helped me work through many ideas. Much of my theology has changed into adulthood because of conversations with you in ways that you have shown me things. And I have found it to be more compelling than what I had prior. So I thought it would be fun to have a little ongoing mentor conversation in real time. And here's how we're going to play this game. I've got some video clips from other episodes of the podcast where people have said things that I thought. That's an interesting argument, and I want to have you react to their argument in real time and just see your take on it.
Greg Boyd [00:28:22]:
Oh, boy. All right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:24]:
Is this you up for this?
Greg Boyd [00:28:26]:
Sounds fun. Okay. I'll be better at it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:29]:
Yeah. So the first one is David Gushy. Do you know doctor David gushing?
Greg Boyd [00:28:36]:
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Really? I like. I like his stuff.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:40]:
Okay. So in a conversation with him, we were talking about his book, defending democracy from his christian enemies. We're unpacking it. I talked about you, and I read a quote from one of your books, and then I asked him to respond to it, and so he gave me his response, and then I want you to respond to his response.
Greg Boyd [00:29:00]:
All right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:00]:
Okay. So this is about a little over three minutes. Okay. So you can settle in for a little bit. We're going to watch this together, and then we're going to see Greg Boyd's reaction to David Gushy's reaction to what.
Greg Boyd [00:29:14]:
Greg Boyd wrote, and then go back to him and have him react to my reaction.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:18]:
This is like theological inception. Okay. All right, here we go.
Greg Boyd [00:29:23]:
All right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:25]:
It's from a book called myth of a Christian Nation. And Boyd writes this. He says, while all the versions of the kingdom of the world acquire and exercise power over others, the kingdom of God, incarnated and modeled in the person of Jesus Christ, advances only by exercising power under others. So he, Boyd, offers this power over versus power under that I know I and many others have found very helpful. Does this fit into what you're saying here? How would you incorporate it or offer a different way of looking at it? What would you do with that?
Speaker B [00:30:02]:
I think it's too simple a distinction. When the government takes our tax money, that's power over. Because, Jeremy, if you don't pay your taxes, the government has power over you, and they can. They can fine you and penalize you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:17]:
Right?
Speaker B [00:30:18]:
But is that power over, like, intrinsically wrong, or does the kingdom being power under mean that a good christian could not be part of the tax collecting apparatus of the state? Well, then the question is, is it illegitimate for taxes to be collected to do things like educate children and clean up the environment, fix the roads, educate the children and clean up the environment? Let's just say that the state exercises power over us collecting our money, whether we like it or not, to do those three things. I do not think it is illegitimate for the state to do those things, to collect the money from us, especially if we have had a voice in setting the tax rate, because it is our representatives who set the rate. Nor do I think it is illegitimate for christians to be the ones who are actually collecting the taxes. So to work at the IR's and write the letter to Jeremy saying, jeremy, you owe us another $3,000. I don't think that's illegitimate either, because in the democratic process, that is what the tax rate was decided to be, and this was the agency that was set up to enforce it. So what I think Boyd is doing there is too negative about the proper exercise of power in public life. Parents have. How about private life? Parents have power over children.
Speaker B [00:31:41]:
We say, no, you can't do that. Or, yes, you must do that. You can't have seven cookies before dinner and you must go to school. That's power over. Is that illegitimate? No, because you're exercising power for the good of the child. If you were not exercising that power, then the child would make all kinds of bad decisions. So I actually think that the distinction is overdrawn and it makes us allergic to the proper exercise of power and community. So, no, I think I'm not there.
Speaker B [00:32:16]:
But power over for what purpose is. If the state says, hey, 330 million Americans, you must all affirm that Jesus Christ is Lord, that's a, that would be an illicit exercise of government power because it would oppress the rights of the citizens. It's not what government's supposed to be doing, and it's a violation of the first Amendment. So it's how the power is exercised, not whether the power is exercised. And it's also who decides what the rules are going to be in a democracy, because we have a voice in that. There's a legitimacy. That would not be the case if a dictator said, this is what you must do.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:58]:
It's a good, hot take on that.
Speaker B [00:33:01]:
She versus Boyd.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:03]:
I literally was like, I need to clip this, and then get Boyd on.
Speaker B [00:33:08]:
You heard it here.
Greg Boyd [00:33:12]:
All right, well, yeah, see, I don't know that much about David. Apparently, I read an article he had written where he was talking about the motivation for kingdom ethics and came to the conclusion we should be doing it as an end in and of itself without, instead of being consequential, which I totally agreed with. But here he seems to have a real strong buy in for democracy, and I suspect it caused him to misunderstand what I'm getting at, because I wasn't at all saying that the use of power over is illegitimate. The whole goal, the whole thing is, I'm saying, what kind of power do you trust? And the kind of power we're to trust is the power of the cross, because Paul says that is the power of God, and that is a power under. It's the power of self sacrificial love, and everything we do is supposed to be done and out of self sacrificial love. And so that's what defines the kingdom. Now, of course, there's, as a parent, you got to use power over with your kids. As a teacher, you might as you power over with your students, you know, if you are okay being in the police force, you got to have power over there.
Greg Boyd [00:34:31]:
That's not illegitimate. It's just, that's not the kingdom. Okay? So you can't have a, you can have a good way or a bad way of having power over others, but you can't have a kingdom way of having power over others. And that is, I think, the mistake that christians don't make. They exercise the same kind of power kingdoms always have made, exercise power to control, power to impose your will, all the rest.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:34:56]:
But.
Greg Boyd [00:34:57]:
But they. They thought. They thought it was unique to Christ, even though now they describe to christ the same kind of power that all the kings use. And so this is the king who rules from the cross, and that's why I was emphasizing it like that. So, yeah, it doesn't. And so, you know, there's, some of the kings of this world are autocracies, you know, totalitarian states. Others are democracies. Now we're having a lot of democracies that are becoming totalitarian states or fascist states and all the rest.
Greg Boyd [00:35:32]:
And I think that some are better than others. I'm glad I live in a democratic country rather than non democratic country. I worry that, you know, that could be in danger and all the rest, but none of that defines me. As a kingdom person, that's my opinion about how Caesar should run the world. Smart, make me be dumb, whatever. But it doesn't make me kingdom. What makes me kingdom is my commitment to live this kind of way and to trust in this kind of a power and not put the, our trust in the power of the bombs and the tanks and the bullets and the flags and all the rest. The power of the cross.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:06]:
So you would say then someone living in the kingdom will still have to participate in power over, but they don't have to necessarily make that their end all trust, right?
Greg Boyd [00:36:17]:
And they shouldn't make it their end all trust. That, that's, that's not what's going to save the world. Now there's, there's going to be, christians can differ on this and have we all follow our own conscience. But at some point it could be the case that the power over that you might be called on to use in a government capacity might violate your kingdom convictions. Like for example, I think every person who's going to run for presidency or for Senate or any place where they might have to order troops to go into war and kill people that they don't know, ask the question, okay, how does that jive with Jesus saying, love your enemies and bless those who persecute you and everything you do be done in love and all the rest? So I couldn't do that. So at some point there could be a conflict, but the fact that you're going to be in charge of somebody, whether it's collecting taxes or whatever, no, in the following world, we need hierarchies. That's just how the thing works. And otherwise we have chaos.
Greg Boyd [00:37:22]:
I think Paul assumes, he assumes that governments are going to use the sword. Romans 13, he says, as I read it, he's saying that insofar as they do are doing it to curb sin and to keep justice, they are. That's how God keeps order in this world. They're servants of God. That's how God brings about justice. Dakia Sune, and that's the same word he, so he said to christians, like six verses earlier in chapter twelve, he says, you leave all vengeance, all justice to God. Our job is to love our enemy. Okay? So don't take you, you don't harbor that in your heart.
Greg Boyd [00:38:03]:
So you leave it all to God. And then he goes on, say, now, here's how God does it. He works through governments and, and to punish wrongdoers. Because in the fallen world, there's a lot of people who won't do the right thing for the right reason, though. They'll only do the right thing because they'll get hurt if they do the wrong thing, you know, so it keeps order.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:20]:
I like it. Maybe it's not Boyd versus gushy. Maybe you both can coexist in this.
Greg Boyd [00:38:25]:
No, I won. I want to win. How bear you, gushy?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:30]:
Okay.
Greg Boyd [00:38:30]:
I like that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:31]:
That was good, Greg. Okay. Clip number two is from a friend of yours, Thomas J. Ord. Oh, he had. He had an interesting way of explaining Jesus on his episode with me, and he described Jesus in ways that I don't know that I would describe Jesus certainly that way or had necessarily heard. And so I thought, this will be fun. Let's see.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:39:00]:
What does Greg think about the way that Thomas J. Ord describes Jesus?
Greg Boyd [00:39:05]:
All right.
Speaker D [00:39:07]:
This of Nazareth is not God. That's heresy right there for most people, I think I can say Jesus is divine, or Jesus expresses the divine nature. But one of the essential characteristics of God seems to be omnipresence. But Jesus of Nazareth is not omnipresent. Another is that God can somehow know everything. Knowable. Maybe not the future, like you and I, as open theist would say, but God can at least know the past. And here Jesus is walking along, and a woman touches him, and he feels something, power go out of him, and he says, who touched me? Well, that's not an omniscient being.
Speaker D [00:39:47]:
So we have this Jesus of Nazareth who doesn't have some of the classic characteristics of God, and another one would be that this individual has a localized body, and God is bodiless. You don't have to end up saying point blank, Jesus of Nazareth is God because his body is divine or something like that.
Greg Boyd [00:40:10]:
Yeah.
Speaker D [00:40:11]:
That phrase, exact representation reminds me of a jacket I wore in high school. On the inside cover, on the back, where the label was, it said, genuine imitation leather. This is not imitation imitation leather. This is genuine. And think about that phrase, exact representation. Represent means that it's not the same. It's a re presenting of something. If I say I'm going to represent the United States at the olympics, I am not the United States.
Speaker D [00:40:50]:
I'm representing something that's other than myself. So, we've got a really weird thing going on. The translators are saying one thing about exact, and another thing is a representation. So I interpret that something like this, Jesus gives us the clearest revelation of who God is and God's nature. And that's not the same because it's a representation according to the text, but it's the closest thing we've got.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:19]:
What do you think?
Greg Boyd [00:41:20]:
Wow. Well, I'm a little surprised by that. I've always this kind of thing where I suspected that that answer was very honest, and I really appreciate that. I thought that that's, given his system of thought, which is, so far as I can tell, a process paradigm, I never could see how he could have an orthodox Christology. I asked him this one time about, you know, what do you do with the Trinity and the eternal son? And he really kind of hedged and hawed and whatever, but it was certainly he was still trying to stay within the language game of Orthodox Christianity, I think, because at that time, he was still teaching at a nasarene seminary. But he seems like in this, he seems like he's cut the tether with, if you don't have a divine, if you don't have a fully God and fully human Jesus, that you don't have, by definition, orthodox Christology. And I don't know what you do with the Trinity. And so you're talking about what I think is the very center of the christian faith, that and then the idea that the world is created ex nihilo.
Greg Boyd [00:42:30]:
And that's also something he denies. And I think the reasons he goes in this direction are unnecessary. But in any ways, my response would be that I don't know if Tom even cares about this that much. But when you read the New Testament, I just think the early fathers were right when they came to the conclusion that, though it's paradoxical, though it's mysterious, you find these early disciples of Jesus, who are Jews, monotheistic Jews, worshiping Jesus, praying to Jesus, ascribing to Jesus all the attributes of God. And yes, as a human being, he wasn't omniscient, he wasn't omnipresent. But how do, I don't know how Tom gets the inside knowledge that God can't do that. Because I think God, if you want to become a human being, could do that. But I don't think that could happen in Tom's metaphysical system.
Greg Boyd [00:43:32]:
It would completely violate the whiteheadian principles, which I think were God's bound by metaphysical laws and all sorts of things like that. So, yeah, that is, I am surprised by how it was almost kind of stunning. Jesus is not God, and I appreciate the candor of that. But if he's not God, then of course it'd be blasphemy to worship him. But, you know, I'm preaching through the book of Revelation right now, and I'm just loving it. This book that I used to just really not like, at all. And now I'm just so getting into it. But it, one of the unique things it does is when he talks about the one who sits on the throne.
Greg Boyd [00:44:10]:
Okay, so this never pictures God. Okay, it's just Ruby and Jasper. Okay. But then there's the slain lamb who also is sometimes around the throne or in the throne or sitting with him on the throne. And he also is worshiped. And he's given, he's. He also claims to be the elephant and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He's worshiped in contrast to the beast.
Greg Boyd [00:44:31]:
And it's John's symbolic way of saying that, you know, God. While God is infinitely mysterious in and of himself, who can conceive of God, the uncreated, boundless being, nevertheless, he has completely identified himself with humanity in the person of the son. He became a human being. He emptied himself to do it. Philippians, chapter two. He set aside, as I take it, he set aside whatever he needed to set aside as God in order to become a full human being. And so since a human being is not omniscient by definition, then you got to take on finite knowledge and finite space and all the rest. He became killable.
Greg Boyd [00:45:17]:
And as I said earlier, I don't need to have to be able to make total sense out of that. I'll give the Christology that I think makes the best sense, but at the end of the day, it's all going to be. It's mysterious. We have to just agree. But my dog doesn't know algebra. Why would I think I should be able to understand the incarnation? But I think it's very important to hold onto that. I think when you cut the tether like that, Jesus just becomes sort of a. The best example of human beings and he's no longer saving us.
Greg Boyd [00:45:53]:
He's, you know, it just changes the whole story you live in.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:56]:
Well, it seems to me that you could have both. You, you could say Jesus is divine, Jesus is God, and also say Jesus is the fullest version of a human.
Speaker E [00:46:07]:
You know what I mean?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:46:08]:
Like, those, those inherently aren't in contradiction.
Greg Boyd [00:46:11]:
No, no. Those are, in fact, they're, they're inherently necessitated. And that's what the church has always said, that, that he is, because he's God, the coming human being. He's also perfect representation of God and also perfect representation of human potential. Definitely is that. But you had the whole chalcedonian Christology comes by hanging on to those two things together and.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:46:34]:
Yeah, that's good. Okay, I got one more clip for you did an episode with a guy named Jonathan Foster.
Greg Boyd [00:46:43]:
I just want to say that I appreciate asking me these kind of questions, or I appreciate folks like Tom because I look so conservative next to them. You know, it's like fundamentalist, you know, we gotta leave the trend. We gotta, you know, and I. It's a relief because I'm usually getting accused of being a liberal. You know, it's like liberal. So it's good to take you from the other direction.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:47:06]:
Hey, man, I'm just here to, you know, give you some prayer. You know, you're. You are mainstream evangelical people. Just haven't figured it out yet.
Greg Boyd [00:47:15]:
There you go. I don't mainstream, but we'll get to that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:47:21]:
That's number four. Okay, number three, I did an episode with a guy named Jonathan Foster, and he wrote his dissertation on memetic theory. And so we did a lot and talking about memetic theory. And here's what I would say to set up this clip. When I was. One of the things you helped me work through was atonement theories. And I grew up with penal substitutionary atonement because that's all I knew. That's what I was raised with and didn't love it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:47:49]:
Didn't sit well with me, but didn't really know when I was a kid especially, that there were other ways to understand it. You helped me work through. Hey, here are some other ways in particular, the Christus Victor view. I really have loved and think, um, to date, that has been the most compelling view that makes the most sense of what this looks like. Jesus. In this clip, Jonathan offers the memetic view of atonement that I also really like. So I'm curious if you like this. You too.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:48:17]:
Or if you're going to shoot this down. So here's Jonathan Foster.
Speaker E [00:48:22]:
I. I was introduced to Gerard when I was really trying to figure out, oh, wait a minute, why did Jesus have to die? I'm a little embarrassed to say that I was in my forties and pastoring before. I really, you know, wrestled with that. But whatever, that is what it is. And so finally, after I got a pretty good handle on what Gerard was saying, I finally realized, oh, Jesus had to die because we killed him. It's just what we do. He didn't have to die to get God to love us or to free. I mean, God in the section we call the Old Testament was already forgiving, you know, and Jesus was forgiving before he was even brutally tortured and murdered.
Speaker E [00:49:03]:
So it wasn't because of that. It was because I think that because we've, we've ordered our systems upon scapegoating violence. And Jesus identified with, he didn't identify with the powers, and so we had to project our, our issues onto him. And Girard is, I think, spot on there. And when he's, when he's saying, yeah, God doesn't need any of us to be victims, I call that in my dissertation, the myth of redemptive sacrifice. I'm borrowing a little bit from Walter Wenk, who talks about the myth of redemptive violence. And I just changed that word to sacrifice because I think it makes it a bit more specific. But I don't think God operates that way.
Speaker E [00:49:49]:
I think we do. I think we operate by the myth of redemptive sacrifice, but I don't think God does. I think it's possible that God might be love. And if God is love, love doesn't need sacrifice and would not force love. Actually. I don't think actually love can force, because if you could force, it wouldn't even be love. And so Girard gives me a, yeah, an intelligent way to try to, to process all of that. And I'm super, super thankful for that.
Greg Boyd [00:50:20]:
Renee Gerard, what do you think? You know, I have really become pretty fond of Gerard's stuff. He's on to something I am not sure about. Medic theory as a, I'm always a little suspicious of any theory that claims to have, you know, explained the atonement. Like, we can translate it all that into this kind of language. So I I'm suspicious of it as a, as a total meta theory. But there's something going on there. And I learned, you know, from, from reading Gerard about how unique the Bible was, because it always, it's, he claims it's the only piece of ancient literature we have where it takes the side of the victims and it sides with the oppressed. And that's why then you have the tradition that, where you expose the scapegoating mechanism.
Greg Boyd [00:51:12]:
And so there's something to that. And I even like those Gerardians who employ, like Walter Wink, who employ the language of the powers, you know, the New Testament principalities and powers and rulers and dominions. And they see that as sort of the, at least the way, the way wenk works it out is that's sort of the group mindset of what happens when we scapegoat, you know, the interiority of a groupthink. And there's something to that. In fact, the only thing I would add is that, and this is where so many people get off. But I think, you know, Jesus and all the New Testament authors, they ascribe agency to the powers. And you know that they're intelligent beings. They have designs and schemes against us, and you lose that if you see the powers is just an extension of us as what you have with Walter Wink and stuff and the way they knew.
Greg Boyd [00:52:12]:
And this goes to, like, why Jesus had to die. Yes, he died. He had to die because we killed him. And I totally agree that there's no vindictiveness in love. There's no. The father didn't like, I need to punish somebody to get this off my chest, like some kind of rageaholic. He just gotta hit somebody because he's angry. Nothing could be further from the truth than that.
Greg Boyd [00:52:33]:
But there can be situations where love requires a sacrifice. Love doesn't require the sacrifice, but love is required to make a sacrifice because of the situation. And the situation that the New Testament presents is that he's got this humanity, that he wants to be his bride. And this bride got herself kidnapped by this, the principalities and powers, by the powers of evil and destruction. And now we are enslaved to this. We're enslaved to sin, we're enslaved to destruction, and we need to be free. As I understand it, it was only that radical revelation of who God is and radical sacrifice on the cross of the Almighty creator, God becoming a human being, that love was the light that pushed back the darkness. It was the here, the atom bomb of love that blew apart the kingdom of darkness, caused evil to self implode on the self insistence, so on and so on.
Greg Boyd [00:53:28]:
So, yeah, answer, yes. Yay. To alert. To the most part, I just add, I think it makes a difference whether you see these, these, these agents as agents that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:39]:
Do you ever feel that the Christus Victor view, and this is where I sometimes get a little bit, like, foggy, doesn't it feel sometimes we're giving too much credit to Satan? Like, why are we saying Satan has that much power, though? Like, why, why are we acknowledging we've been kidnapped? It almost, it feels at times to me we're giving too much credit to Satan's power. Right? Like, God lost us, you know, I.
Greg Boyd [00:54:05]:
Mean, like, yeah, well, you know the way first, John 519, Satan has control of the entire world. Four times in the book of revelation, he deceives all the nations, all the inhabitants of the earth. Jesus calls him the archon of this world. Archon was a term that was used for the highest ruling authority in any region. And John 1214 and 16 says Satan is the archon of this world, the CEO. That's pretty. That's quite a bit of authority. Paul says, Ephesians two, two.
Greg Boyd [00:54:36]:
He's the principality and power of the air. And the air was, in first century cosmology, the domain of authority right over the earth. So he's the authority over this earth. And if you just look at this world, it is so, so screwed up, and it's getting more and more screwed up, and, and something's terribly wrong. And, and so if you hold that God really is altogether lovely, beautiful love and nonviolent, you have to have a good explanation for why nature, it does not look that loving and kind and nonviolent and this whole creation, and we're called slaves, you know? So I don't think we're going beyond what the New Testament says. If we are saying that, you know, God in his manifold wisdom, which means his multilayered wisdom, he accomplished a lot of things on the cross. Okay? So I don't want to reduce it down to one thing, but I think all the things that he accomplished and all the different metaphors that are used surrounding the atonement New Testament, they all could be categorized as they all come into the rubric of rescuing humanity and creation from evil. And I think that's the central thing he did.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:47]:
That's good. Okay, one more I want you to respond to. I don't have this on video because this conversation happened after I hit stop recording. And then I debriefed with a guest, and then he dropped this little nugget, and I was like, shoot, I wish that was recorded. So I'll describe it to you. I was doing an episode with a guy named Caleb Campbell. He wrote a book called disarming Leviathan. And Caleb is basically, he has given his life to going after christian nationalism and not as his enemy, but they're his mission field.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:56:25]:
That's how he phrases. So he considers himself a missionary to christian nationalists in America, trying to show them that there's something better. So he said something, though, in a conversation after the episode that I have, I was like, Caleb, that is a fascinating idea. And I've never thought of this. And he mentioned you by name, and so I thought, this will be fun to just see if you've experienced this. I was asking him, like, hey, how's this going? Like, how are you seeing this? How's this playing out? You know, are you doing okay? Like, how's this all happening? And he was saying he's noticed a trend, that he thinks there's a shift happening in christian circles right now where it used to be progressives and conservatives, and you had the progressives over here, the conservatives over here, and they would battle. He said he's noticing a shift where now the issue seems to be not how progressive or how conservative are you, but what is your response to the use of power? And that he's saying, now the church is getting divided in a different way. You have those who say, yes, let's rally around this, let's make America great again.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:34]:
Let's lean into all this influence and those who are saying, no, that is not at all what the church is called to be. And so you have this new kind of rift in the church on this issue. But then here's the statement he made, is he said, what I have noticed from his experience in these camps, not, you know, saying this is not the way the church is called to be. He said he's been watching progressives and conservatives come together in ways he never has seen before. And he was saying what people are doing is they're going, yeah, I don't agree with you on x, y and z, but I really agree with you on how you're responding to this in this season right now. So we have more to lock arms on than we don't. And then he said, again, I didn't bring you up. He said, yeah, I'm watching how people are receiving guys like Greg Boyd.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:26]:
And I was like, oh, okay. And he goes, you know, for a lot of years, Greg Boyd has been kind of labeled as a heretic because of open theism. He goes, what is happening in the circles I'm in is now people are saying, yeah, we don't agree with the open theism, but we love what he does with the kingdom and, you know, the powers and all of that. So they're welcoming you back in. The conservatives are embracing you. I thought this was so fascinating. And I'm wondering, have you experienced any of this? Have you seen that the playing field, the chessboard has been rearranged a little bit?
Greg Boyd [00:59:05]:
Yeah, I don't see it as clearly as he does, but I do see some of this where I like, for example, I was invited. I spoke at Preston Sprinkles conference, whatever that was called. What's it called? And there's a lot of calvinists there, people from foreign backgrounds, but they are united in wanting to distance themselves from kind of butt head Christianity, that fundamentalism that we always got to be right. They really emphasizing having an arrhythmic spirit and talking through things. And so yeah, there, I have been invited to those kind of things. There is now a whole group of people, and it's this movement, so far as I can see, and it's been going on for quite some time. I just learned about, like 15 years ago, but of people really becoming Jesus centered, where really simplifying their theology and everything down to make it Jesus centric. And so, like, the Jesus collective is this group that is kind of a hub for folks who are moving in this direction.
Greg Boyd [01:00:14]:
And there are folks coming into this from real left wing avenues, but also coming at it from real right wing things. We have a number of folks in Africa, and they have a very conservative theology, but they are all over this, you know, Jesus centered thing because they see how other christians are abusing power and whatnot. So, um, yeah, you know, that actually, I'm glad that, that you ended with that question, because that gives me hope. And that's like, because sometimes you can get so cynical when you see, you know, but something is changing. You know, they, the stat I had heard, and I never saw it disputed, is that 83% of white evangelicals vote voted for Donald Trump in the previous election. Now it's down to 64%, which is still, like high, but, but no but. So there's a shift kind of going on. And I hope, you know, people, a lot of folks woke up to this when we, with the moral majority, there are folks who, they had all this buy in and they tried that was really to take America back for God.
Greg Boyd [01:01:22]:
And they, a lot of them at some point realized, wait a minute, this is no longer Jesus y. And that's why I got out of that movement. It's like they just had this. And I forget some of the names, but some real big name folks opted out of it and then wrote books about how the kingdom, this is not the way of the kingdom. And so it's like this pendulum swing, you know? And so now with this christian nationalism, it seems like that is really growing. Everything I hear about is like, that is really growing. And they are standing back and standing ready, you know, they're to see what's going to happen here. And it's very concerning, you know, what's gonna.
Greg Boyd [01:02:00]:
But I appreciate this brother who feels called to be that. That would be the hardest mission field. It had be, I mean, that that.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:06]:
Would be, you know, what's so interesting, when I interviewed him on the podcast, he had a giant american flag behind him and he was wearing a USA hat, and he had all these icons that you would expect. You're a huge Trump fan. Right. But that's how he reaches.
Greg Boyd [01:02:24]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:24]:
His mission field. So he. He's very intentional to say, like, no, I'm gonna go in and talk about things I love about America, to build a bridge with you to then try to lead you to something better than what you have, you know, settled.
Greg Boyd [01:02:39]:
Yeah, that's. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Yeah. So I've come to, you know, there's so few things to have hope in, in this world. I mean, everything's becoming unraveled. Everything from culturally, socially, politically, ecologically. We're in some deep trouble.
Greg Boyd [01:02:59]:
And of course, ultimately our hope is in Christ and the promise that he's going to transform this world and bring about the kingdom on earth. But when you see people who do get it and who are trying to live faithfully and walking humbly, and they're not opting into the cycle of sacrifice and violence. And, you know, maybe when Jesus said that the kingdom of God's like a mustard seed, you know, I thought that by now we should be a big tree, right? But maybe it's always going to be a mustard seed. The percentage of folks who get it until it comes back, you know, the remnant. Right. The first fruits. The first fruits was not the majority of the crop. I think.
Greg Boyd [01:03:42]:
I never thought of that before. We're called first fruits, right? The harvest, the whole humanity. But the first fruits was. Was never, that was just a. It was never. The majority of the crop is picked first because it was ahead. So the most we can do is bear witness to this other kingdom. And there's a better way to live than the hateful way you're living now.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:06]:
Hey, man, your stock is on the rise, my man.
Greg Boyd [01:04:08]:
My stock is on the rise. Are you saying I'm corny? Nice.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:13]:
I see what you do there.
Greg Boyd [01:04:15]:
Okay, we're gonna.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:16]:
We're gonna close with a speed round of questions.
Greg Boyd [01:04:19]:
Oh, yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:22]:
So these are. These are easier. Those other ones were. Those are heady. These, these. You just. You just fire off whatever comes to your mind first, okay?
Greg Boyd [01:04:30]:
It's dangerous to talk to say that to a guy who's got ADHD, all right?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:34]:
I have a son that has ADHD. This is true story. This should also encourage you. He's eight. He was in the car this morning, we were talking about you, and I said, hey, Abel, my friend, you know, Greg has ADHD and his eyes got big. And he said, he does? And I said, yeah. And I said, and he's the most brilliant person I know. And he said, well, dad, I'm smart, too.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:55]:
And I said, you are incredibly smart. And it was like, literally, like he had a little glimmer of hope of, like, someone who has what I have has done well. So that's great.
Greg Boyd [01:05:05]:
And that's why you should be out loud about stuff like that.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:05:08]:
Yeah.
Greg Boyd [01:05:08]:
You know, instead of keeping a secret. Whatever. So I always tell people, and when I tried, it was probably about five, six months ago, I, you know, I've mellowed out so much from spending more time in prayer and contemplation and whatnot that I thought, you know, I don't think I need my meds anymore. I think I can get rid of it. So I went a month without it, and everybody was begging me after that month to go back on them. Please, Greg. Greg.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:05:36]:
Okay, so I will confess. This is my. This is my guilty confession. I I enjoy your sermons when you're off your meds. Those are my favorite, because you go on tangents and I'm, like, here for it. And it's like, I have no idea where you're about to go because you have no idea where you're about to go. And those are always my favorite sermons, like, buckle up, here he goes.
Greg Boyd [01:05:59]:
Yeah, well, I now don't do that nearly as much. We actually have a rehearsal sermon and where you kind of go through it all and iron out the bugs and, you know, trying to. So I try to put the boundaries in there, keep thing. Keep the train on track. But sometimes, yeah, it gets a little wobbly.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:17]:
It's probably for the best.
Greg Boyd [01:06:19]:
All right. All right.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:20]:
Speed round. Here we go. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Greg Boyd [01:06:27]:
Gosh, a lot of things. The rapture comes to mind.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:33]:
Okay. What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
Greg Boyd [01:06:39]:
Keeping the kingdom holy. Keep it distinct. Not getting it, not. Not allowing it to get wrapped up into the. To stay free. I'll elaborate. You said short, but I don't know how short you want.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:54]:
You can elaborate.
Greg Boyd [01:06:55]:
Okay, so, so they. It's. It's. Maybe I should put it this way. Being. Being a peacemaker in America, we are on this. This polarization where everything's getting weaponized in between. It's just really crazy.
Greg Boyd [01:07:09]:
And, and. And so what? The worst thing that can happen is for the church to get caught up into that, to just become a christian version of the hate that's already going on. But we need to opt out of that. To keep the kingdom holy means to keep it distinct, set apart. And. And that means being able to live out the kingdom in any, in any situation you're in. So Paul says, first corinthians 1614, to do everything in love. Everything.
Greg Boyd [01:07:38]:
And so I encourage folks that if you're in a political or theological debate and winning the debate becomes more important than loving the person, then do the kingdom a favor and shut up, because you're. You're losing the debate. Even if you're winning, the goal should always be love, communicating love, the honoring the worth of the person. They may have views that are deplorable to you. They may embody everything that's just wrong with humanity. Doesn't change that we're still called to love them and. And to reflect that love by how we dialogue with them.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:08:11]:
So, side note, I didn't know you were to say that, but you just triggered a memory. One of the reasons early on why I was so enamored with the way that you understood God was because of how I watched you live it out. So I think a lot of people are watching leaders in the church, right. Formally and informally, and saying, do I want to look like you? Do I want to be more like you? Is that the kind of Christian that I see as, like, the end goal? And if it's not, then they look at what ideas got you there, and there's a skepticism right, on those ideas. But the reverse is true. When you see someone, you go, I want to be a Christian like you. Then you go, what ideas got you there? Like, how do you see God? And for you, you know what's funny is, when I first started becoming friends with you, this was, I don't know how many years ago now people would caution me, well, you know, Jeremy, he's considered a heretic in a lot of circles. And I found it so funny because they only knew of you, you know, through an idea from afar, right?
Greg Boyd [01:09:19]:
You.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:09:20]:
You were a believer of this doctrine or whatever. And I'm going, well, yeah, I've. I've hung out with a guy, and I'm. And I'm telling you, like, he looks like Jesus. The way he's responding and like, that makes me believe what he's saying even more. And I'm not gonna make you share it unless you want to share it. But you told me a story one time about another pastor in your area named John Piper who tried to take you down. And the way you told me that story, I've never forgotten it.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:09:50]:
And you. You basically didn't fight back. You didn't try to take him down. You know, tit for tat, you just said, like, do what you got to do. And I remember you telling me that story, and I'm being so amazed, going, what does this guy, how does he understand a faith like this? Because, like, I wouldn't have wanted to react the way you did. And you. You do embody the, like, let love win. It's not worth winning an argument.
Greg Boyd [01:10:14]:
Well, thanks. I appreciate that. I do remember that it was. I don't know if this is a specific think time story you're talking about, but. But this is where that hit a pit where I was most tested, because there was a point where at first, okay, so there's a move to get me fired from Bethel, and our church kicked out of the Baptist general conference and whatnot, and went on for two years. And the first year was kind of exciting, you know, because I like to debate, and we're having this, you know, jobs, and I never really thought that if I lose my job, I still had wilderness. I wasn't, you know, that worried. But by the second year, I began to kind of get sour on it, because I came to realize that, you know, I had to go to all these different meetings, answer these questions, appear before different pastors, committees, whatever.
Greg Boyd [01:11:06]:
And by the second year, I began to realize that when I give answers to their questions, they're not even listening. All they're doing is looking for. At least a lot of them are looking for ammo and things they can use against me. They want to win. They don't want a dialogue, and it's not healthy to engage in that for too long. There's a religious spirit of rightness that can just start to not. And this isn't about John Piper at all. In fact, John and I have always just been real cordial.
Greg Boyd [01:11:32]:
You know, I've never sensed any animosity from him. Some of his followers, yes, but not from him. But then I, at one point, got a. Got a notice from Baker publishing that certain pastors were going to bring a lawsuit against Baker for defaming their name by associating them with the same publishing house as me. And they were calling on one person, was calling on a boycott of any christian stores that would sell my books. And I got. That one. Got me pissed.
Greg Boyd [01:12:09]:
Okay, now you're like. And it was that night where I. And I would recommend this to every follower of Jesus. I think it's one of those fundamental disciplines you can possibly have. But I felt in no uncertain terms, the Lord saying to me, mister Boyd, I'm giving you an assignment. Your job is to pray for John Piper and for his church and for his family and play blessing on them and to do it every day until I tell you to stop. And it went for about a year, and at first, it was pulling teeth. I was really mad.
Greg Boyd [01:12:40]:
You know, when you want to not like somebody, it's hard to pray for them. But. But, you know, Jesus says, love you, pray for your enemies, pray for those who, in your view, are despitefully using you. And that's the only way to stay free. You see, I now realize that when Jesus says that, yeah, it blesses them. Yeah, all prayer, but it's mainly for you, so you don't get caught in the undertow of. And it can sour you. And what I found is that it's really hard to do at first, but it's like a muscle.
Greg Boyd [01:13:14]:
And if you. You know, if you start doing that at first, it's really hard. It's pulling teeth. But in time, God softens your heart. That's another thing I've learned just by spending more time in prayer and meditation, is that you give God time to soften your heart and to change your perceptions and maybe begin to see even what God sees in them. Jesus thought they were dying for. They've got unsurpassable worth. Can you see the preciousness in them? You don't agree with their views, you know, and maybe they're going to cost you your job, but agree with God about their worth.
Greg Boyd [01:13:46]:
And that was. Just ended up being so liberating that that's a practice. I always tell people, take the one or two, no more than five people or groups, that you have the hardest time not hating, the hardest time loving and commit to praying for them, you know, and it doesn't mean that you're praying, you know, that they'll live a nice, prosperous life. Or maybe they're all Old Testament prayer, Lord, smite them. Shuffle up. No, you know, it's. But. Because sometimes I would pray, God, protect people from this person, but that doesn't change their unsurpassable worth.
Greg Boyd [01:14:31]:
That's the only way to stay free, my friend.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:14:34]:
All right, what do you see as some of the main issues facing the church in America today?
Greg Boyd [01:14:39]:
Well, staying free from polarization, it's definitely one of them. We always have got a lot more work to do around racism and around reconciliation with indigenous people. A major issue that we're going to have to confront, talk about, and do it in a loving way and an open hearted way and let the spirit move. But the whole LGBTQ issue is right in our face. And, and so the church needs to be in dialogue about this, what various views that people have. And we're starting to do that at Woodland Hills, and not just with the straight people in the room. You need to be talking to gay christian friends who get their perspectives on it, because they're the ones who are the most impacted, you know, and that's a major issue. And then I really think that in this coming decade and the decade after, our climate is going to be going absolutely bizarro bonkers crazy.
Greg Boyd [01:15:39]:
It is already this last year. I mean, we are now going on our twelve month straight of breaking records by records. They just came out this report, the international Meteoric, whatever it's called, came out with this report yesterday, that not nice today, last week, where every indicator that they look at, every indicator that marks global warming, is just one of the indicators. How many storms are there? How frequent? Every single indicator broke records this last year and it never happens. And so anyways, we are going to be seeing an immigration crisis like the world's never seen here very soon. Already there are millions of people displaced because the whole horn of Africa is swell. Trains, if they're not getting flooded, they're in droughts. And that's where some regions are.
Greg Boyd [01:16:32]:
So this responding to the increasing crises that are going to be caused, I think eventually, as society begins to crumble, it's already in the process of this. Will the church be a faithful witness in a time as the world unravels? I think that's, that's all, though. Other than that, it's gonna be pretty easy.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:16:55]:
Easy peasy. What? Is something blowing your mind right now?
Greg Boyd [01:17:01]:
The concept of, um, volt. I really got into the whole, um, volt idea in, in the book, uh, uh, an immense world by ed young. Just realizing that. Okay, do you know that of the total light spectrum. So light comes in different frequencies, right? So, so if the whole light spectrum were the length of my arm, like this. Okay, the amount of light we actually see with the human eye, what percentage of the light spectrum do you think we see?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:17:36]:
I'm going to guess it's small. Based on this setup.
Greg Boyd [01:17:38]:
Yes. Okay. I'll tell you. I'm trying to get this, show you my cool arm. I can't do it. So if you think about the length of my arm right there, the amount of light we experience is 0.003% of 1%. 0.003. That's three millionths of 1%.
Greg Boyd [01:18:02]:
That would be like the size of a human hair against my whole arm. That's how much of the total bandwidth that we experience. Now, that's our. When it comes to seeing, it's similar when it comes to hearing and everything else. And so it is for every insect and for every organism and for every animal. It has a frequency. And what's really interesting about this book is that it gets into the different ways that different animals experience the world. And it's so.
Greg Boyd [01:18:32]:
It's so freaky, a mind boggling. These bats who, just by. By sending out echoes based on what comes back to them, how quickly the echoes come back. They can tell if there's a moth somewhere out there in the middle of the night and. And then zero in their radar to the point where they're sitting out 200 pulses a second as they zero in to snatch this thing. It's just mind boggling. But all of them are limited. And so we think we see the whole of reality.
Greg Boyd [01:19:00]:
We only see a fraction of a fraction of reality.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:19:04]:
Yeah.
Greg Boyd [01:19:04]:
And that's within the light spectrum that we know about. This is the kind of energy that we can measure because that's the kind of energy we live in. For all we know, there are as many different kinds of energy as there are kinds of frequency within any given light spectrum. And so it just. You become aware that basically there's not that much difference between you and the box. Zelderbug, when it comes to being aware of what's going on in this universe, you know, we are not it. We're so small. And then that it.
Greg Boyd [01:19:32]:
That, for me, creates wonder, it. And amazement and. And, and, uh. I don't know, it just. It's. It's why I. It seems to me so arrogant or I don't want to use a negative word like that, but I don't quite get why some people are so insistent that angels are impossible or that, you know, principalities and powers that they are just metaphors of when they're. You think that we're the only intelligent beings here in the universe and we're not all that intelligent.
Greg Boyd [01:20:01]:
You know, it's like there's other dimensions we know even within our own light spectrum. There's all these other dimensions right now. There's radio waves going right through us, thousands and thousands of television stations and songs and whatnot. But there's just not on our frequency, so we don't notice it. That blows my mind. The wonder of creation.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:20:19]:
I have to read this book.
Greg Boyd [01:20:21]:
It's a. It's a good one.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:20:24]:
What is a problem you're trying to solve right now?
Greg Boyd [01:20:28]:
A problem I'm trying to solve right now. Well, um. Well, there's certain theological, you know, the LG LGBTQ thing I'm working on. Here's the main thing, though. I am really. I'm not really trying to solve it. It's more of mystery. I don't quite know, as if you really look at the world as it is right now and look at the science of it and whatever it.
Greg Boyd [01:20:57]:
We're heading into this really dark future, and I'm wondering what, I don't know how God's going to wrap this whole thing up. How far down the road is he going to let us go? Would he let us go extinct before he resurrects the whole thing? We have no idea. I have no idea. How does that relate to the whole. In the New Testament, we're taught to live with the sense of expectancy. He could come at any moment. And that was a part of my Christian. When I was first a Christian, that was everything.
Greg Boyd [01:21:29]:
Jesus is going to come back. And we thought it was going to rapture us. It was so real to us. It was like, so. And then I lost that. I kind of burned out on it, and I came to realize the exegesis wasn't there. But in the last several years, I've recovered that, not because of the Bible, but just because of looking at the world the way it is. And it's got me thinking, I mean, so we should be living as though we could come back any moment, and so we should be faithful to the end and be all the more intense because of this.
Greg Boyd [01:22:01]:
But I find that that's really easy to do if you take an honest look at. At. We're at the state of things right now. It's. There's a great podcast, if I can advertise other podcasts on this. Totally. Well, it's one that. It's not a christian podcast.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:22:16]:
Oh, no. We only talk about christian things here, Greg. We're very limited.
Greg Boyd [01:22:22]:
Okay. It's called the great simplification. Nate Hagen is the host. He's. He is a former professor at the U of M here. And the great simplification is just his word for collapse, because everything will simplify, because everything that's complex requires energy, but our energy is running out because this whole society was built on a battery. I got that metaphor from him. It's built on a battery, a finite battery that's running out.
Greg Boyd [01:22:48]:
It's called fossil fuels. And the more the battery runs out, the more expensive it is to get at the battery. And we're already past the peak, we're getting less on a return than we are in our investment, but it's got a collapse. It's, so, so how does, it has to, it's even apart from climate, we've been running at this on borrowed energy, you know, taking ancient sunlight that's trapped under the earth. So, so that, so how does that relate to, you know, the second coming? How is Jesus gonna wrap this up? I don't know, but I have recovered that, that, that living with that existential expectation but not fear. And that's the thing in the New Testament, like when we think, oh, no, society is going to collapse, you know, it's going to be, and it will be terrible. It's going to be terrible. It's going to be terrible.
Greg Boyd [01:23:42]:
But that's not the, terrible isn't the last word. And in the New Testament, they know it's going to be terrible and Jesus warns them how terrible it's going to be, but in the end, they're praying for it. Come quickly, Lord, because that's the only way this world's ever going to be set right. Yeah, it won't be right until then. And you get to the point where you're so sick of the violence and sick of the injustice and the hate and stupidity and that it's like, come.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:24:06]:
Lord, just, well, death precedes resurrection, right?
Greg Boyd [01:24:10]:
Yeah. Unless the seed falls into the ground, it cannot. So that may be true of the whole thing. This whole thing's got to collapse. Babylon must come crumbling down before the heavenly city can be introduced into this world. So it's going to be, we're in for some unpleasant years here.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:24:29]:
Those are some big problems you're trying to solve, by the way. I think that's the biggest answer I've got yet to that question.
Greg Boyd [01:24:35]:
I should have said, well, there's a screw that's loose on my bike, you know? That's right.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:24:40]:
So some people are just like, I don't know how I'm going to, you know, it's like, wow, you are, you're kind contemplating a lot. Okay. What's something you're excited about right now?
Greg Boyd [01:24:48]:
Well, I'm excited about what I see going on. The movement of christians who are getting it, who are the kind of post Christendom Jesus centered. It's all about living in love that's happening and that's, I think, the most exciting thing on the planet. That's the most hopeful thing going on, I think, in the planet. And, you know, that's, I mean, I'm excited for this week's. Sermon. I mean, I actually am loving pastoring more than I ever have. It's really weird, I think, not having let go of the academic stuff, I am more focused on just the church, and I'm more concerned just about being the church and being disciples and, you know, and part of that's my awareness that this is coming to an end.
Greg Boyd [01:25:35]:
Part of it said, I'm 66, and I'm coming to an end, you know, but either way, I'm excited to do that, and that's always exciting.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:25:44]:
That's cool.
Greg Boyd [01:25:45]:
Everything else about the world is pretty. Pretty depressing. Keep your eyes fixed on Jesus, baby. It's the only thing you got going for you.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:25:53]:
All right. Is there anything else you want to add that I have not asked you about that? You just thought, we got it. We got to get this plug in there.
Greg Boyd [01:26:01]:
What is the pronunciation of. This is a berry that this thing was made out of? I thought it was an anus.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:26:07]:
Anise.
Greg Boyd [01:26:08]:
Anise. Is that a barrier herb or what?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:26:12]:
I'd have to look it up. I think it's a. I think it's a fruit, but I'm not. I'm not 100%.
Greg Boyd [01:26:19]:
You are our anti. Well, look at that. Ladies and gentlemen, Boyd stumped journey in wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:26:24]:
It's not hard to do there. The only time I've ever heard that word used is describing a wine, and it's used often, but I couldn't tell you what that flavor is, so.
Greg Boyd [01:26:34]:
Wow, wow. And so, can I ask you, how is your ministry going? I've never quite had a clerk because I'm not a wine drinker. So I've never had a quite clear understanding. But I love the idea that you're. You get the people together, talk about wine, and somehow bring the gospel in that. How's that going?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:26:50]:
The podcast has been amazing. I have. I have absolutely loved having an avenue to have conversations with people. And basically, here's how this whole thing got started, is when I was a lead pastor in Oregon, we would take couples from the church. My wife and I would take a couple from the church out to a winery on a Saturday, have an amazing experience. Wine tasting, talking about life. I mean, just incredible conversations. But here's what I noticed.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:27:16]:
The next day, I would see him at church, and they would be prim and proper put together. Good morning, pastor. You know, and it was like, what. What happened? The person yesterday who, like, was so fun and real and raw and like, we did all that life, like, what. Why are. Why are you this now? You know? And I just realized, for a lot of people, when you go into a formal church setting, there are certain cues, right? Like, I say this, I don't say this. I act this way, and you get them out of that and you get a glass of wine involved. And people felt very, very open.
Greg Boyd [01:27:52]:
So.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:27:53]:
So my brilliant idea was what if we had people who, like, you don't normally drink wine, you know, and just say, hey, let's talk theology. Let's talk life over a glass of wine and have some fun with it. And so that's kind of the essence of it. We're, you know, into our twenties now of episodes. I have absolutely loved these conversations. It's been. It's been a joy.
Greg Boyd [01:28:15]:
That's good. Well, you're a good host. I mean, it comes natural to you.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:28:18]:
Well, thank you very much.
Greg Boyd [01:28:20]:
Thank you.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:28:20]:
I appreciate that. Okay, Greg, so if someone is listening to you right now and, like, I like this guy, which hopefully you like this guy because I like this guy, where do you want him to go? How do they connect with what you're doing?
Greg Boyd [01:28:32]:
Well, you can find [email protected]. r e k n e w. We have a podcast there, and you hear me at Woodland Hills church, wh church.org. and we have all my sermons archived there. And you can find my books at any local bookstore.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:28:51]:
You've written one or two, right?
Greg Boyd [01:28:53]:
Yeah, a couple here and there.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:28:54]:
What's your. Do you know the number?
Greg Boyd [01:28:56]:
I think it's 23 22 20.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:29:00]:
That's what I was like. I got to look this up because I don't know what the actual number is these days.
Greg Boyd [01:29:06]:
Yeah, I don't know, but I haven't done anything for five years, so that. That's taking a little break.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:29:11]:
There you go. Well, hey, my friends, you are a jazz. You. You have been so amazing in my own life. And I'm so excited to post this episode because I feel like we're going to give our listeners and our viewers a chance to see, like, just a little glimpse into what you've done for me for years in real time. Like, we're going to show you them. And I think you are. You are just such a gift to the church and to a lot of us who want to follow Jesus, and we're not always sure what that looks like because we see a lot of junk around us.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:29:49]:
And you have been such a good voice for that. So thank you for your faithfulness. Thank you for taking a few hours out of your day to do this, and thank you for going and buying a nice bottle of wine to humor.
Greg Boyd [01:30:02]:
Me, giving me an excuse to get a little tipsy in the afternoon. Appreciate it.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:30:09]:
Dude, you're the greatest.
Greg Boyd [01:30:11]:
Hey, thank you.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:30:12]:
And everyone, thank you for joining us. I hope you have loved this episode as much as I have. We appreciate you listening and watching, and we'll see you all on the next episode of Cabernet and Prayer.
