Rethinking and Rebuilding (with Josh Patterson) | Ep. 47

May 21, 2025

Ever wondered what happens when two theologically curious podcast hosts bring their shows together over a glass of wine? Episode 47 is part divine disruption, part spiritual therapy session, and 100% a good time. Jeremy Jernigan sits down with Josh Patterson of Rethinking Faith to talk about reconstructing theology, open and relational views of God, and why some former pastors become bartenders. This episode is an unfiltered swirl of laughter, wisdom, and spicy takes on hell, omnipotence, and what we do after leaving church leadership.

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Episode Transcript

Rethinking and Rebuilding (with Josh Patterson) | Ep. 47
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Jeremy: [00:00:00] Well, this is a very special episode of Cabernet and Pray. I was approached by a podcaster of another podcast called Rethinking Faith. It was very similar in the conversations that they have and in the guests that they have and said, Hey, would you ever be open to some type of podcast collaboration? I thought, I've not done it like that, but let's do it.

And so we put our heads together and thought it would be fun to take some elements of my show, some elements of his show, put it together and create a special episode for you. And so that's what we did. I lovingly refer to it as podcast inception. It's like , a podcast within a podcast.

Josh is a guy that I immediately connected with and we've been talking online, but we just hit it off. This is going to be the new record of the longest episode of Cabernet and Pray. So this is one. Get yourself a nice glass. Settle in, get ready to unpack some ideas. This was super fun, to [00:01:00] record, and I hope you get a ton out of it.

I'm not gonna introduce him because he introduces himself. In the episode, but you are going to get a lot out of this. I'm so excited to bring you a very special edition of Cabernet and pray. Enjoy.

I have never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happen in this conversation right now, thousand years from now, people are gonna be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would've no idea.

Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say. You drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? You gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment, resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.

I mean, the camp to God is at Universal spirit. This is the strangest [00:02:00] podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You tell me to drink and I just show up.

I'll also say as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.

We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the, the hospitality that this particular podcast. Provides folks like myself and I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.

It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine [00:03:00] that's very unique. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.

It's the peach wine early. The wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.

Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage. You really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Well, hello friends, and welcome to, I don't even know what this is. I think this is like podcast inception when multiple podcasts come together. So my name is Jeremy Jernigan. I'm the host of Rebuilding Faith and Cabernet and Pray, [00:04:00] and I'm joining Josh Patterson, who's got his own deal. Josh, what are you doing?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, so I run a podcast called Rethinking Faith, and I, I like your language there, podcast inception. We're gonna, we're kind of both on each other's shows at the same time.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I, I didn't know what I was like trying to think of what is this, what are we doing that's just, It felt right, like it's a dream within a dream,

you and me.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: fits. I, I like it. Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: And what's awesome is I talked Josh into drinking wine with me today. So in honor of the Cabernet and Pray podcast that I do, we always have a glass of wine together.

So Josh is a beer guy, but he is, he is extending grace to us today. I'm gonna introduce what I'm drinking. I've got a 2019 the brand is called Authentic and this is a Myrto Vineyard version of that. This is from Oregon. It's a Pinot Noir and it's made by a guy named Nicholas Keeler.

Nicholas has become a friend of mine over the last few years, and I recently just did a wine [00:05:00] and whiskey trip.

Where we had nine of us and we spent a weekend in Oregon Barrel tasting some whiskeys and then going to some wineries. We met up with Nicholas. And it was one of those, like, I thought it would be cool, you know, when we got there.

He had agreed to, to do like eight pores for us. A normal wine tasting trip you're doing four to five. And we ended up doing, I counted 15 pores which was

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: kind of tasting.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: slightly more than anticipated. And ironically, that ended up being the highlight of the, the trip for everybody. So everybody liked

that.

But this wine is a beautiful, the way I describe Nicholas, he's like an artist with Pinot Noir. Pinot Noir is a signature grape in Oregon. It's, it's my, my first love and this one. So you get the traditional characteristics of pinot noir, like a cranberry, get some mushroom in there. But then this one, this is, I'm way I'm gonna describe it.

It feels like a dark and rainy Oregon day, which some people hate. I love it. And [00:06:00] literally, I'm in Arizona. I'm not getting lots of rainy days, but this wine , is bringing me there. So this thing's deep. It's beautiful. I'm absolutely loving it. That's what's in my glass. Josh, what do you got today?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. So I'm not gonna pretend to be a wine connoisseur. If we were doing beer, I could, I could be more nerdy, but I.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You would smoke me on beer.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: my favorite style of wine is cab Solve. And so when I was at the store, I decided to go with one with my name on it because, you know,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I was even gonna make a

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: like that.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: that, do you know that you have a wine named after you, but you are way ahead of me.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. So I, I got, this is 2022 cab sauv from Josh from their reserve line. And it's barrel barrel aged bourbon, barrel aged specifically I think for two months, if I remember reading correctly. And I really, I love barrel aged wines specifically in bourbon barrels. I think it just adds a nice depth and a little [00:07:00] bit, you know, different character to the wine.

So that's what I'm going with. But I had a question for you because I brought a, like a, you know, a regular wine glass with me from BDE Vineyards, which BDE is a, a fine winery here in Maryland. But also as a beer guy, I brought a, a beer glass that looks kind of like a wine glass from full Tilt Brewing, which is my favorite brewer I ever worked at.

Unfortunately, they no longer exist. Thank you, COVID. But I didn't know, like I didn't know if this was breaking the rules, so I wanted to seek permission. Which one do you think I should go with?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: That's a great question. And here's the fun fact. The biggest thing you look for in a wine glass, and people will get so nerdy about this, and you know, if you look online, you can find literally a wine glass for every specific grape

that you want to, you know, drink. So like if Cabernet Souvignon, what's my wine glass?

You will find a Cabernet Souvignon one glass. So if you wanna buy a bunch of glassware, do that. That's awesome. If you don't, here's the, the rule of thumb. You want the [00:08:00] bowl of it to be wider than it is at the top.

That's, that's at the end of the day. And both of your glasses accomplish that. And that's true with most. Glassware in general, like you think a lot of the whiskey glasses, the, the most of them are designed or it's a wider bowl and then it gets more narrow at the top. And that's to allow you when you have those aromas, to kind of capture them. So then when you smell it, you're getting all of that bouquet.

So you're gonna be awesome with either one of those glasses. So I would say rocket man, whatever one feels right.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: All right. I'm going full tilt.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I love, I love this

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: whole stopper kit there. Look at you.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Oh yeah. My, so my wife very much is the wine person. And so I'm borrowing some of her fancy things. Yeah. 'cause we, I couldn't wait. I definitely cracked this last night with

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Yeah, you did

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: So how to make sure it was appropriate for the podcast.

You know, I can't show up like a complete idiot, only

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Cheers to you my friend.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Likewise, cheers.[00:09:00]

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Now, have you had that one before? Oh, you had it last night, but have you had, is it a regular go-to for you?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: No, I think this is my first time with this one in particular. I've had other Josh wines. Oddly enough, many people have gotten Josh Wine as a gift and been like, dude, I bet you didn't know this. And so then I, I just get a bunch of them for free, which is really cool, you know?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I just

need a famous Jeremy to, oh, create a vineyard then.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah, that'd be sick. Or, and I don't know if you've seen The Good Place, but if you named it Jeremy, bear me, that would be a really cool wine.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I'm not aware of this.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Ah, man. The Good Place is, is a fantastic show and the way they describe time is that it's not linear, but it's sort of a Jeremy Bear Me, which is they write Jeremy Bear me in cursive and that's how time functions.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: What, how have I never heard this?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah, do YouTube it when we're done.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You are like changing my life right now. This is gonna be a thing.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: You are how time functions. So congratulations. It's the [00:10:00] secret to the universe. If you ever do philosophy of time stuff, you're, you're set up for success. So,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Awesome. Well, what do you think about your wine?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: oh, I love it. It's, it's good. It's it definitely, I don't know if this is how I talk about it with beer, it has some heat to it from the from the barrels. Like you can pick up some of the kind of burn from the bourbon. But overall, I mean, it's, it's pretty smooth. It's, I'm going to, I can't speak about one in any intelligent way, tastes like grapes, but, you know, I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's dry is, which I prefer. I do know I prefer dry wine over sweet wine. But it's not like as dry as, you know. I think like a merlott would probably be a bit more dry. Right.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Merlot's actually gonna be a little bit more friendly on that scale,

but it depends on the Cabernet. So Cabernets are kind of like the big boy with tannins is the thing that usually people are

like, oh, that, that bite that you get kinda dryness in your mouth,

that's from the tannins. Merlot's gonna be more of a medium tannin.

Whereas [00:11:00] Cabernet is like, again, depending on the Cabernet, where it's from. But if you know, if that's like a, A California cab, they're usually pack a, pack a punch.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, I, I mean, I like that. I think I wonder actually, 'cause my, with, with beer, I prefer dry bitter beers like a solid west coast. And so I wonder if part of my love for that is similar to why I might go for something like a cab solve.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I totally think it is.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah. Cool. Okay. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. I can't be more intelligent with my, with my, my wine language.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You dove into it. I love it. Well, what's so fun about this video is like, we're kindred spirits. This is our first time meeting.

We've interacted online before we follow each other online. But this is the beauty of the web is it, is it brings like minds together. And even some of our shows are, are named similar.

We have similar journeys. I mean, literally, like, there's so many, you know, parallels here. So I'd love, why don't you tell us a little bit more about your show and [00:12:00] what, what you're doing.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, sure. So, rethinking Faith started this October will be seven years, so I

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Woo. Dude, that's a long time.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. It's, it's been been going for a while. It's been a lot of fun. It's started out not being called Rethinking Faith. Originally it was called Theology Doesn't Suck. And, and it was an idea that me and a buddy of mine had at the time who we had very different theological perspectives. I, at the time was like a kind of somewhat edgy evangelical and that I felt like women were cool and like maybe gay people too, because my brothers are gay. And then he was like a Westminster confession or bust, hyper Calvinist, super reformed, like Tim Keller's not a real Presbyterian kind of guy.

And so we tried to demonstrate that we could have conversations across, you know, theological lines. And it worked until it didn't. He left [00:13:00] because he was like, yeah, dude, I don't think I can talk to you if I'm gonna become a, a pastor of my denomination. 'cause like, you're kind of basically a heretic.

So he left. I brought on a new co-host my buddy Marty. He was the worship pastor at the first church that I was ever a pastor at. And we kind of bonded over negative church experience together. That place was not awesome. But we recorded a hundred some episodes together. And it was a lot of fun.

That's when the name change kind of happened to rethinking Faith. Eventually Marty got a job at the church that he currently works at. They were not super down with him doing the podcast as it, you know, continued to grow and explore more questions that you shouldn't explore

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: This is my

surprise. Face to

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Right.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: part of the story.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Yeah. And then I brought on a buddy named. Excuse me, named Greg. During a point in my life when in my own kind of, you know, spiritual journey, deconstruction journey, whatever you wanna call it Buddhism was, was really [00:14:00] big for me and I was very much into the mystics. Greg brought, brought that aspect to the show.

He was on for a while. He ended up leaving because of work stuff. And so ultimately I decided like I'm probably just a bad person to host a podcast with. It's clearly my fault. And so I've been going solo ever since. But yeah, rethinking faith, just, I love theology and philosophy. I fall broadly into the kind of process relational camp on days when I, you know, am comfortable positing ontological truth claims of ultimacy, or to say it differently on days when I still believe God's real on days when I don't feel like that radical theology is kind of my home.

And yeah, so I'm just, I love having big conversations with guests and explore faith and, and different ways people hold that. Yeah. So that's, I mean, I guess it's kind of a bit about what I do. Yeah. I, yeah. Rethinking Faith

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I like it.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Nerdy podcast.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: [00:15:00] I like it.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. But I'm, so tell me, since I guess you're also on my podcast right now, I, I would love for you to tell my listeners about what kind of stuff you do as well.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Alright,

so I have two podcasts and the way I would describe it is I started with one called Cabernet and Pray,

which was kind of an, an an outpouring of my ministry journey where I would, you know, I was a lead pastor in Oregon for three years. And I would meet with people and then we'd go to, you know, the wineries like on a Saturday, my wife and I would take a couple out and we would get in the best conversations, you know, over a wine tasting.

And then I would see them at church the next day and they'd be like, totally different, you know, and it would prim and proper. And I'm like, what, what happened? And I, I liked the way you were yesterday. You know, that conversation was more fun. And so after I, I left the ministry officially, I was like, I really love [00:16:00] having, similar to you, I love having theological conversations, but I want them to be real and authentic and not stuffy.

And so I thought, how fun would it be if I got people to drink wine with me while we talked about God, you know?

And so a lot of times it's people who, they drink wine like privately, but they don't talk about it, you know, as you mentioned. 'cause certain circles, you gotta be hush hush. So a lot of the guests, this is like their first time I'm outing them as alcohol drinkers, you know?

So they're having, , a glass with me and , they're these professors and academics and like authors of incredible stuff, and then you're watching them get a little buzz and lighten up, on the episode. And it's so fun and it's so good. And I'm, I'm not a lightweight, so I, I drink regularly, but I'm always amazed how quickly someone can start to feel it, you know, with one glass.

And we often get to see that on those episodes. So I would kind of put that

into like, the deconstructing camp.

A lot of those conversations are, [00:17:00] rethinking some things that you grew up with. You were told it had to be this way, and we kind of unpack, hey, maybe there's another way to think about it.

And really going at it that way. Then I had a friend of mine challenge me a little bit ago and he said, Hey, you're doing a great job for people in the deconstructed community. He's like, what are you offering people as they reconstruct. Something better. And it was such a good question, and I was like, yeah, I don't know.

Like that's really hard to offer. You know, like, I'm not a church, I don't, I'm not trying to be a church. So then I started like putting more time and more thought into that. And then that led ultimately to a second podcast that I do. This one's weekly. So the first one's every two weeks. This one's is weekly called Rebuilding Faith,

A little different than yours, where I literally, I cap it at 10 minutes an episode, so they never go longer than 10 minutes.

And I teach through the Bible. So I'm literally going through the gospel of John 10 minutes or less every single weekend and trying to literally offer people, like, if you grew up going to church and Sundays feel weird [00:18:00] because you have that, but you don't want to go to a church now, or you, you know, you can't for whatever reason, but you still are feeling like I, I would like to study the Bible.

I would like to grow in my faith. I offer something so it posts on Sunday mornings and , it becomes this thing where then people can gather around and it's designed to have conversations. So rather than listening to a preacher for 50 minutes, you only watch a 10 minute video or listen to it, you know?

And then there's, questions that I, I create with it as well. And so that's been really cool and I'm trying to figure out ways to offer both the deconstructing and the reconstructing piece holistically together, if that makes sense.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Sweet. Absolutely. I think that's really cool. 'cause I'm, I mean, I'm, I, I like your friend and how they kind of challenged you on that. 'cause I think it's, it's needed, right? There's a time and place for the kind of deconstructive stuff, you know, in the way of how, you know, we're using that word in pop culture today.

But also, yeah, like you said, people, you know, it's good to throw rocks for a while or ask questions, but then like, what do we do next? You [00:19:00] know? And so the question for me in that vein, that's. I kind of try to operate, rethinking faith out of, comes from Richard Rohr where he says the best practice of, or the, sorry, the best critique of the bad is practice of the better.

And so like there's definitely, you know, deconstructive themes currently in Rethinking Faith, if you go back, you know, maybe three, four years, it's much more prevalent. But now it's kind of, I try to do the practice of the better and just have cool conversations and, you know, see what happens.

But yeah, I, I think that's sweet. I like the kinda the holistic one two punch that you got going on.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I'm trying, man,

I'm trying to, you know, for, for a long time I thought I would retire as a lead pastor and, you know, I was two decades in the church world, and

like my life made sense,

like, this is what I'm gonna do and I'll retire doing this. And then when I walked away from it, it was like, I don't know who I am anymore.

How do I offer something helpful when all of my training is in this thing [00:20:00] that I don't really want to do anymore? You know

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, a absolutely. I mean, I think, so I was, I was in vocational ministry for only six years. And in those six years I was between three different churches. The first one I was a teaching pastor at, and that church, like I said, was, was not great. I, to be quick, I experienced verbal, spiritual, emotional and borderline physical abuse.

While working there, I was there for eight months and it was eight months too long.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Yeah.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: So I, I pieced outta that place pretty quickly. Picked up a gig as a youth pastor, or they called youth director 'cause that wasn't ordained in the Methodist Church you know, at a Methodist congregation. Which was, which was fine.

The, the church wasn't great. There was a lot of like unhealthy staff things that happened, but overall it was a much more positive experience in the first place. And then the, the third church, you know, [00:21:00] I, you know, we left Florida, came back to Maryland where we're from and I have nothing bad to say about Seneca Creek.

I'll actually name them. They were wonderful. Pastor Mark and Pastor Jeanette were very helpful to me. They provided a lot of healing that I needed, but I was kind of like super duper damaged goods when, when, you know, I started working there. And so, basically through the help of actually Pastor Jeanette and then also a spiritual director I decided like, okay, it's not healthy for me to any longer be a pastor.

And also not just for myself, but also for those who I'm serving. I didn't want to, my kind of faith crisis that I was having. I didn't want to unnecessarily like dump that on people. You know, that's not my job as a pastor. So, but yeah, I, and then after that I was like, I don't know what, what do I do that you know, I, I had conflated my identity with my vo my vocation at the time.

So it's like Josh is pastor. I don't know how I exist outside of that. So [00:22:00] I don't know. I became a bartender and then started making beer and

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I love it, dude.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: but I continued with the theology and philosophy and podcasting. So that was my, I guess, I connection that I maintained. And

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I don't know if you know a guy named Jordan Hughes in

Oregon. He was a youth pastor for many

years, and then he, he left that to go be a bartender, and he like, has blown up. I had him on an episode, he's

blown up on social media and now he like,

literally teaches bartenders how to capture that stuff on video for social media and I mean, incredible stuff. And you ask of like, you know, like, oh, what'd you do before this? Like, I was a youth pastor. I mean, it's just like, there's, there's a, there's a handful of us that have a less than standard trajectory, I guess.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, the, well, it's, it's funny because I think I was actually genuinely surprised how much of an overlap there was it [00:23:00] from like, skillset for pastoring people and bartending. Specifically in the, you know, in the realm of like interpersonal communication kind of stuff. People come and sit down at a bar and they pour out their life to you.

Like, I had conversations with people that were like so personal after knowing them for, you know, 30 minutes. 'cause I poured 'em a beer. You know, then I did with people who I'd been, you know, working in a church with for like two, three years and I was like, what? This is a weird thing. Like people just sit down and are like, here's everything bad I've ever done and why I'm a giant piece of shit.

And help me and be like, oh, this is interesting.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Yeah.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: This is a, I don't know, interesting overlap, I guess.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: And here we

are,

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: And here we are. Podcasting.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: just couple dudes talking about God on, on a podcast.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Classic. It's, I mean, that seems to check out, right? The trajectory is there. There's a, [00:24:00] there's a pipeline, I think.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: So, Yeah.

so, so

to all the listeners or or viewers of this, if you, you are currently in ministry and seeking another profession, there are options for you. So

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. There are now, now, you know. Yeah. It's worth, worth having to go at, but

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Alright,

you've got a segment we're gonna dive into. I'm stoked for this.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Yeah. So on well, listeners of of Rethinking Faith will note that we, you know, every once in a while I'll put out this bit called 20 ish Cues, which I have to give a shout out. It was my buddy Trip Fuller. It was his idea initially and people liked it, so I kept doing it.

And it's basically invite someone on the show and instead of, you know, maybe going through a dense theology or philosophy book that they wrote I prepare 20 ish questions that some are serious, some are silly, some are personal. And we just kind of go through 'em and see what happens. It's a lot of fun.

People like the, the format. So I [00:25:00] thought as a crossover, it might be fun if we try to do like a, I don't know, a version of that where I have 10 questions for you and you could ask me 10 questions. We'll just kind of take turns and we will see what happens.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I love it. Let's go.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: All right. Do you want, do you want me to ask you one first?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I mean, sure. It's your segment. I want to,

I want to honor it.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: so, let's see. I'll go at this one. So, as you stated, you used to be kind of like a mega church pastor. So how has your view and understanding of church changed since you stopped doing that?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Woo. Just give me an easy one Right. off the gate,

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Right. Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Oh man. So the way I I would describe it is like this. And some people will say of me, I just had this said to me this last week that, oh, you're just bitter toward the church because you had a bad experience in it. And I think anyone who has had a bad experience in [00:26:00] the church, probably many of you who are tuned into this right now, you probably have had that said to you as well.

Like, you're just bitter and you know, you almost like you need to get over your own bitterness. I would not say I'm bitter. I would say I was hurt and I healed. And so the way I describe it, it's like a scar. You can poke on the scar, it still is there, but it doesn't bleed and it doesn't hurt anymore. But what it did allow me to do is see how the hot dog was made. And when I mean that, I mean, I was in a mega church in Arizona for 12 years. Then I went and led a megachurch multi-site. Both these of these were multi-sites in Oregon and and Washington for three years. I saw all the behind the scenes, like all the nitty gritty. And then when it went bad in Oregon, I watched how it went bad.

I watched

the power struggles that all those dynamics. And so I would say for me, it's given me an awareness [00:27:00] of the totality of the American Evangelical church model

that most people only see like a little glimpse of, and I had a chance to really like get under the hood and see how all the engine runs. And there's a lot that is really concerning to me about the model itself. So not, you know, this is not bitterness, it's not like I got hurt, so now I'm just pissed. But no, just like, hey, there's, there's inherent things. When you have. A hierarchy of power and you add the faith dynamic to it.

I think that gets really funky, really easy. And there's just a number of things like that, that the cult of celebrity, that's a huge part of American Evangelicalism, I think is a huge issue. So I would say leaving that has allowed me to kind of not only see it for myself, but then, and I don't know if this was similar for you, I changed my theology on a number of things after I was out of the church,

and I always wondered why, like, why it was that.

And I think the reason why is when you're, when you're [00:28:00] pastoring a church, at least I felt as the lead pastor, I couldn't go too far beyond where my church was, like

relationally. And I felt like it would be spiritual neglect to

like, I believe things that none of my church does. You know, I, so I felt like I had to, like, we have to go, we have to go together.

I. Well, as soon as I don't have that, it's just God and I of like, okay, God, what do I think makes the most sense? And all of a sudden some of these like topics, I was like, oh, I for sure think that makes more sense than what I've been believing for a whole lot a, a whole long, you know, time. So that was like another shift.

And so I feel like a tremendous freedom, but now what I'm trying to do is like dip my toe back into the church. 'cause I think it needs voices like ours

and voices who are a little to use Richard Rohrer's phrase from the edge of the inside, which I always love that image of I'm not

outside it, you know, looking in, but I'm not in the center anymore.

I'm on the edge of the inside. And that's how I think I've tried to, to now contribute something to the church moving forward.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: hmm. Yeah. Right on. I, yeah, I can, relate with, with [00:29:00] so much of that. Especially as like the first church that I worked in, they kind of prided themselves on like, oh, we sell all these books and stuff that our pastor wrote about how to do this evangelical church thing and charge people astronomical amounts of money for said, you know, books and programs and kind of just seeing how this, you know, like you said, the hotdog was made definitely was very off-putting to me, but at first it didn't cause any, like, theological questions.

I was just like, oh, this way of doing church is dumb. I'm gonna go try a different version of it. Right? But then of course the, you know, theological challenges came anyway.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You could

outrun it.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I, couldn't, no, I just, I read too many books. It's my problem. It's my advice in life,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Yeah, the church

is a difficult place. I was just having this conversation with a megachurch pastor last week and I, you know, he was asking me, Hey, what do I think the, the future of the church is in the next five years?

And I was saying, I think the church is gonna have to make more [00:30:00] space for people who can't wrap their head around certain things that you currently believe.

And

it's, it's the point you just made about, you know, if you read too many books and you know, too many ideas and then you hear the church say, everybody has to believe this view of this. And you're like, well, why? And what about the other views? And, you know, and until I think more churches make space for people to go, like, you don't have to leave if you want to deconstruct, like you could deconstruct here.

Like, that would be a beautiful thing. Like, no, ask

the questions here, like, we're gonna make space for it here. I think that's awesome. And Kate, that's getting get to my first question for you.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: All right.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: What is a book that has wrecked your theology in a good way?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Ooh. Well, I have a cheeky answer to this question because it's kind of the first book that started to wreck my theology in a good way, and I don't think it was the intent of the author. So that book was surprised by Hope by NT Wright which is a book on eschatology and life after [00:31:00] death. And it completely uprooted my understanding of like, oh, the whole point of Christianity is that when we die, our soul floats off into space to be in heaven forever.

And like that's the bit, and this, you know. Wright challenges that completely, he's a New Testament scholar. So for him it's not about us going to heaven, but rather heaven coming to earth, which he argues is how the Bible functions. And so that was, that was a big deal to me. And then also that kind of opened up this question about like eternal conscious torment hell stuff.

'cause he doesn't, he's not a proponent of that, at least not in the book. He's like, that's just not what the text is doing. And so that kind of started a lot of my questioning when I was like, okay, so if I was wrong about this thing, then like, what else is there out there? And then there's been, you know, I can't tell you how many freaking books I've read since then.

Too many. [00:32:00] I just gifted like 150 books to a friend of mine for their wedding that my wife was like, you need to get some of these books outta here, dude. And I'm like, so like, Hey, here you go man. Enjoy.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I saw you just

posted like your reading list for upcoming episodes. So that's

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Oh yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: People are like, I, I, I'm like, I really want to get to it. I just, I, I'm backlogged, you know, I gotta get, gotta get some reading done.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's crazy. The pile is directly to my right and it taunts me on a regular basis, but but it's fun. It's, it's cool. It keeps me engaged and I don't know, I like hearing other people's ideas and having fun conversations about 'em. But yeah, surprised by hope. I know it's maybe not a sexy answer, but it's an, it's an honest one.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: How many years ago was this?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Oh geez. I read Surprise by Hope after graduating college. So this was probably 2012, [00:33:00] 2013. And that actually, that perspective. Of like the whole point is, you know, building the kingdom of God on Earth that is in heaven, and that people can go around and create little pockets of heaven on earth. That was like my big thing that I always talked about with students to the point where they, like students made memes about it.

Like there are memes of like, you know, pockets of heaven and, you know, silly stuff. These kids make fun of me. But it, that was, it was deeply foundational. And I still, I mean, I still find a lot of value in a lot of that, in that language and, and those ideas. Even if I might wanna qualify things, you know, a little bit differently than Wright does now yeah, I, so,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Love it.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah.

Right on. Well, here, I, since I gave you like somewhat of a hard one right off the bat, I actually wanna ask you a question about how I bumped into you in the first place. So I think I saw you posted a video either with Tom Ord, [00:34:00] who is a good friend of mine, or talking about Tom's work. And then I also discovered that you wrote a, an essay in a book that I also have an essay in on Tom's notion of omnipotence.

And so I was wondering if you could just tell listeners about the chapter that you wrote in the am impotence

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Hmm. Good question.

I have to remember what I wrote.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I read it this morning so I could remind you

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Did you Okay, good. You can, you can check my work here. I think mine title was something like, God Isn't Waiting For Your Cry for help.

or something

along those lines. And so. Dr. Ward asked a a handful of us to write, and you could either, you could, they're like different options.

You could take, take the idea, make it experiential, you know, offer a rebuttal, you know, all these different things. I was like, I wanna make it experiential. 'cause that's where I love, I love taking big, huge theology and figuring out how to, like, the typical person can do something with that.

So mine was figuring out how do these ideas affect [00:35:00] prayer? And I was thinking about the way that we normally pray in, in all the circles I've ever been in. And I, I am a second generation preacher. I grew up in the church, so I've, I've been in a lot of these circles in, in my years. It's always with this assumption that if we don't ask, you know, God's not gonna do it.

So we, we have to

ask for God to do these things. And as I was thinking about the impotence idea, I was thinking. You know, he has this line where he talks about, you know, a good God always is gonna act, you know, in, in the best interest of people. And so if we assume God is good, which I operate from that assumption, then we should assume God is always going to be good.

Which then makes some of our prayers a little weird because,

And I use it like a parent. I've got five kids and if one of my kids, we took 'em to the beach and one of my kids starts swimming out and I'm realizing like, oh man, they're, they're getting far out there. There's no part of me that's going to just sit idly and go, [00:36:00] well, I hope they don't get in trouble. But if they do, they'll call out to me and then I'll note to, you know, to, to interject as a

parent, that sounds like the weirdest thing ever. I would be proactively watching them engage, going, they might need my help. At no point would I say. Hey, I'm not gonna save them because they haven't asked me like that.

Like from a parent analogy, that just is a ludicrous idea. But I realized as I was thinking about, you know, his writings and then prayer, I was like, that's how most people pray is like, unless we invite God to do this, and it's like, what kind of a God do we think like we're following? Like, God won't intercede unless you ask God to do this.

And so my chapter is all about what if we actually assumed that God is already doing what God could do for our benefit? Like God's

already engaged. So then it's not, Hey God, I'm inviting you to come do something. It's [00:37:00] us partnering with God, us figuring out God, what

are you at work? And how could I further what you want to happen?

How can I join you? How can I bring my free will and others free will and you know, and really bring this together? And so that was the idea I had of like, Hey, let's not, let's not like stand idly by and think like, well, if we didn't ask him, he's not gonna do anything. I just thought that's like a, such a monstrous view of a parent,

and I couldn't reconcile that as as a dad.

And so why on earth am I projecting God is like that? And then I even say in the chapter, I think people will be like, well, yeah, of course this is true. Well, if you agree that's true, then stop praying the way we pray. You know what I mean? Like,

I think people read it and they're like, well, of course. Like it's, you know, it's not controversial.

Like, yeah, well, but it's like, but we don't pray like that. We, we still pray of like, God, please would you, would you do something for the good here? And it's like, what do you, what do you literally think God is doing and wants to do? Now I, I do agree with Dr. Ord that, you know, I think there are limits to what God can do.

I don't, I don't view God in the [00:38:00] traditional sense of omnipotence and all that. So I'm, I'm, that's probably way more than we have time for. But yeah, so that was kind of the essence of like taking that concept and applying it to prayer.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm. Sweet. I think that's great. That's a, an awesome way to apply it. 'cause I'm with you. I think that was always, even in my, like when I was still in church world, I was always uncomfortable when we would do prayers of like inviting God into something because I was like, didn't you guys say that God was like everywhere or something like that.

And so us like inviting God into something seems kind of counterintuitive. Like God was off like, I don't know, in heaven grilling up some steaks or something. And then he's like, oh, what's that? Oh, the church over there, they're invited me. Guess I have to go. Like, that seems silly to me. So yeah. But I'm, I'm with you.

I've, well, and my next question for you will be a follow up to, to your chapter, but yeah, I'm, I'm with you on the rejecting omnipotence and all this kinda stuff, so.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Love it. All right. [00:39:00] Let's get into

your chapter then. What, what did you write about?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, so I did a I tried to bring a radical theology and process theology together. So like for listeners who don't know, radical theology kind of comes out of the, kinda like the whole death of God movement.

So you know, the holocaust happens. You have these Jewish theologians like, wait a minute. We're God's chosen people. Have you seen the holocaust? WTF doesn't make sense. And you start people questioning the Omni God, right? The God of all the omnis, the God of classical theism. You have people declare that God is dead.

You know, people like Paul Tillek great German theologians say Amen. And let try to do theology out of this space. And so it's an inherently, from a philosophical perspective, it's an inherently deconstructive mode of theology. Whereas process thinking or open and you know, which is a form of open relational theology is constructive.

And so oftentimes, you know, [00:40:00] they've been pitted against each other, but in reality they have a lot of overlaps. And so what I try to do is bring in the work of a very prominent radical theologian or he prefers to be called a philosopher, John Caputo. And I brought him into conversation with Ords notion of omnipotence and called my chapter omnipotence perhaps.

Because that's a play on, you know, Caputo Caputo talks about God, perhaps, you know, he would say things like, God doesn't exist, but God is an insistence an invocation, a provocation a specter that kind of haunts, right? And we never know if God exists until after the fact, right? He calls it a theology of the event.

So when we look back and we see a time when we loved our neighbor, we can say in that moment we actualize the divine, right? God existed. So it's this God perhaps, and it's to me very similar to Tom's idea because as you know, like the omnipotent God, the God of, you know, whose power is love, is [00:41:00] non-coercive and like isn't gonna just, or can't rather just like take over us, make us do stuff to solve problems, but rather invites us to be co-creators, to use a word that you did and, you know, help God actualize God's will on Earth as it is in heaven.

And so. You can see both of them require by definition humanly cooperation creaturely cooperation to actualize for process thinkers, the will of the, the divine or God's initial aims, and for radical theologians to actualize the, the divine potentiality or something like that. So I try to bring those two together and see what happens.

And so that's what I did much more theoretical. And a lot of people are like, why does that matter, Josh? The prayer bit was much better, but

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Your sounds much

smarter than mine.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: or I just read again eight of Caputo's books and was like, I need to get this outta my brain.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: [00:42:00] Happen when you're like, I can't stop this. I gotta get it out. It sounds like

you, you harnessed it Well.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Well, thanks man. I, it was hard. It was a challenge. It's weird doing. You know, theologies where one believes in God and the other one doesn't, and say like, okay, how can these actually inform one another? But it's a fun thing. But it does. I mean the, you know, continued the process stuff. I was just curious for you, like, how did you come to find open and relational theology in the first place?

And is like that kind of the camp that you would put yourself in today, so to speak?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: So I grew up very traditionally evangelical, and again, I was a preacher's kid, not, I mean, I'm very, very well versed in that arena. And I remember going to college and I went to a seminary for college and. Started having questions that I didn't really love [00:43:00] the answers I was getting, but I

didn't know if, if there was something more.

I just knew like, I don't really love these answers. So I remember asking like a Bible professor, my, one of my favorite Bible professors, Hey, I'm really struggling to reconcile like the God of the Old Testament with what I see in Jesus. And I, I I just need something that's gonna help me navigate that.

Like, what would you recommend? And he literally like gave me a, a textbook like it, there's just a biblical summary textbook and I'm like, this is not even helpful. You know, it's like, no, I need someone to actually, so I kind of just began this journey of after I graduated and then I could read whatever I wanted to read.

'cause I wasn't taking classes anymore. So it's like, all right,

I'm just keep reading. And I stumbled into a book. It was one of those, you, you've seen those four views books where they

take a topic and they have, you know, people on all ends of the spectrum. And it was divine knowledge for views. And I've always loved the idea of how does [00:44:00] God know what God knows and

how much does God know about the future?

How does God know the future? Like just fascinating to me on a total nerdy level. So that's what this book is all about. Divine for knowledge. What does God know about the future? How does God know it? And there's four views in it. And there's this view written by Greg Boyd. That was the open theist view. I had never heard of open theism in my

life.

I'm now in my mid twenties at this point. And it was like I met Jesus again. Like I was so enamored with this view of like, this is incredible and God is so real and so vibrant to me in this view. So then that launched me on this whole journey. I started like grabbing everything I could read from Greg and then one weekend. I literally said to my wife, I'm like, I wanna see what this theology looks like in a church. And so we ended up flying out to Woodland Hills in Minnesota one weekend, and I was just wanted to, I mean, literally I didn't know [00:45:00] anybody. I just wanted to see what, what kind of a church does this theology produce? And we're walking around, you know, we get in a conversation, I end up meeting the, the teaching pastor there and just kind of bumped into him and explained, Hey, we're, you know, from Arizona, we're at this church, all this. And he's like, Hey, would you wanna meet Greg? I'm like, that would be incredible.

Like, yeah, I'd wanna meet Greg. So I go backstage, meet Greg and we just like hit it off.

And Greg does this whole thing, like little speech to me about how we need more people who understand this theology in the younger generation because guys like him are getting older. And I don't know Josh if this was the spirit of God or what I had for breakfast, but I decided I'm just gonna throw it out there.

And I said to Greg Boyd, who was like my. This icon of theology to me. I said, well Greg, if you ever want a young preacher who believes these ideas, I'll come preach for you for free.

I don't know why he said that. I don't know where that came from. Just came out in this moment. And [00:46:00] he is like, oh, okay, yeah, maybe I'll take you up on that.

He has no idea who I am. You know, he is like, some random dude just offers to preach for him. So I don't think anything of it, you know, we, we go back home, whatever, like a week or two later I get an email from Greg and it's basically, it's like, holy hell dude. You can preach is is like the title.

And he is like, Hey, when I met you, I didn't know whether or not you could really preach so I wasn't gonna commit anything.

He's like, but you can preach and I'm ready to take you up on your offer.

So Greg flew me out and then paid me nothing to go preach. 'cause I had offered that. And so I went and preached for him and just got sucked into the world of this theology's. Beautiful. That's like my first introduction to open theology.

And then Greg started mentoring me after that. So then I would say, you know, since then, so we're going on probably 15 plus years at this point, that he's just been my mentor. And so then he has introduced me to all of these people. So, you know, [00:47:00] Tom Ord and you know, Brian Zand and all sorts of people and all sorts of different things.

So as we would work through theology, he'd be like, you gotta go connect with this guy. And then that's how I got dialed in. So I definitely feel like I, I feel at home with a lot of open and relational theology. I also feel at home with Anna Baptist Theology.

I feel at home in a number of different camps, you know, these days.

And so I find it, I find it helpful not to lead with that because the typical person I have found has no idea what you're talking about when you say these things. And then they kinda look at you like, oh, are you part of a cult? You're like, no, this is Christianity. You just don't know all these labels. So I don't usually lead with that, but. Those are the spaces where I, I most often feel at home where it's like, oh, these are ideas I really resonate with, and so that

was kind of my introduction to all of that.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Nice. Well, that's a sweet story, dude. I, Greg had played, you know, a huge role for me in my own you know, [00:48:00] experience. I, I read his book, myth of a Christian Nation in college and then became like super annoying about it to all my friends. You know, about like Christian nationalism and these kind of things.

Yeah. And so Greg's awesome. He, I had the privilege of doing a few things with him as a part of this thing called Jesus Collective which was super cool. Yeah, he's awesome. But when you said you know that the Anna Baptist bit, I remember I was interviewing for a church when we were trying to move back from Florida to Maryland.

And the pastor was interviewing me and I mentioned that like, I have Anabaptist Bend towards me. And this dude was like, what do you mean anti Baptist? He was like, this is, it's a non-denominational church, but like we're Baptists. And I was

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Why do you hate Baptists so

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Anna Baptist. And he had no idea what I was talking about.

And I was like, that's not gonna be a good fit for me. But he was like Anti Baptist,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: No, and I don't, you know, if I say that someone's like, inevitably, what the heck is [00:49:00] that? You know, they,

it's like, it's a term. All these are terms people don't know. And so the way I'll describe it is like, you know, like the Amish and the Mennonites

and you know, and they're like, yeah, I'm like, it's like that with all the weird cultural stuff.

like, just take the theology of what they believe without some of the cultural expressions of it. And Yeah. so

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. That's

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: like having a conversation with a Mennonite church in Arizona right now. And we're talking

about, you know, different ways to partner and stuff, and so it's. It's, it's just funny, but again, people are like, Mennonite, like what?

You know, they say like, really anaba is not something that the typical Christian understands, so you gotta really soft sell that.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I, I learned it from so I went to Messiah College, now Messiah University in Pennsylvania. And they're not technically any one denomination, but they're very heavily connected to the brethren in Christ. And so that's where I started to pick up a bunch of Anabaptist stuff.

That's where I got connected to the meeting house which was, you know, I think maybe the biggest [00:50:00] kind of Anabaptist as they would call themselves expression at the time. And so I was very much a part of my story and I still carry a lot of that with me. You know, and my, my ethics and my disposition especially with a lot of the kind of like nonviolence.

Type stuff, but it's definitely a part of my story. But Anti-Baptists is kind of funny to me.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Okay. Let me connect my next question to that line,

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Alright.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: because when you have these ideas, what I have found as we're talking about, a lot of people don't understand them and, and a lot of people think they understand these ideas, but they have radically different understandings of what some of these ideas mean. So I, I would think, and I'd love your answer to this, what's the biggest heresy that you've been accused of?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Oh. The biggest heresy I've been accused of, I've been accused of so many because they're probably accurate. I don't know. I mean, I think probably [00:51:00] my conception of the divine is a big one for people. They get upset about because it is so radically different from classical theism. And if all you know is classical theism, then to hear something outside of that is like you, it's basically like you worship a different God.

Like that's a whole different religion. So that's a big one. I don't know. I mean, culturally people get upset about you know, my support for like L-G-B-T-Q community. Which, I don't know, it's, it's always so weird to me, like, I'll, I've told this before on the podcast, like, I will have wild conversations with, with atheists and people of different faith backgrounds and all this kind of stuff.

We'll question all of these things. And then what loses me followers is when we're like, and also gay people are cool, and they're like, that's too far. It's like, what? That's where you draw the line.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I lost you there.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Right. Like, so that, I don't know. That's, in my mind, that's not a big thing, but, [00:52:00] you know, for people I guess it is.

Yeah. But so I, I think that I, I've been caught an atheist a bunch, which is fine. You know, Darida had often said that, you know, he could rightly pass for an atheist, and Caputo picked up that line and kind of ran with it. And if people wanna call me an atheist, I'm fine with that. Just because it's kind of like.

Disruptive enough. And I think all theology should be atheistic because there's definitely, there's gods we don't believe in, right? So all of us are an atheist to some extent. So that's fine.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Yeah, I

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: call me an atheist.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: There's

lots

of Gods I don't believe in. yeah, of

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: right? Yeah. Yeah. So

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: a good answer.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: that's, probably a big one is is the God stuff.

Yeah. Well here, I'll, I'll ask you one that's kind of in line with that. What is the most difficult aspect of your faith that you had to rethink?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Hmm. I, there's, there's so [00:53:00] many I've changed my view on, so I'm trying to pick one. I would say I, I'll have to piggyback on your last answer a little bit. When I came out as being affirming. It seems like that has been the biggest shift of all of my shifts. The only one I would, there's two that I would put as like close runner ups, and that would be when you openly challenge eternal conscious torment

and and posit the notion that Jesus might save everyone, that that's a close second

and maybe also a close second or maybe a third depending on who you're talking to, is if you challenge Trump

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Hey, maybe this is not the Christian Messiah that we all think you know, that, that this is, those, those two are close seconds to the reaction.

But I would say singly like the single most, whoa, this, this one was massive, was when I [00:54:00] said, Hey, I was wrong about this.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: you know, I wrote a book in 2016 called Redeeming Pleasure, and I had a chapter in it about homosexuality. And in the chapter I, it was almost like this prophetic notion I even said of any of the chapters in the book that I may look back on later and not agree with.

I think this might be the chapter where,

here's my current argument, but I don't know if I will, if I'll believe this into the future. And I don't, and I don't agree with what I wrote in that anymore, but I literally said that in that chapter, which is, I always look back like, I think I, I think I was like working it out, you know, of like, Hey, I think something's coming. But like I said, being a pastor in a church that would've just, you know, been a bombshell to the community that I was leading. And, and I don't think they were ready for that at all.

As soon as I left that it, it was like this no brainer. And I'll tell you what was funny, you know, the moment I realized that I had changed my theology on this, I don't know if you've [00:55:00] had one of these moments. I was sitting in a circle with with six other evangelical pastors who I'm friends with, and we were having a great discussion about. What, what can the church do for the LGBT community and how, you know, and they're all, they're all pastors of churches. Like how, how do you, you know, do this? And in that conversation, I realized I was arguing against every single one of them.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: And I didn't, it was like, it was not like an, like, if you would've asked me that morning, Hey, are you affirming? I would've been like, no, I'm not really there. But in the conversation I'm realizing functionally I'm adamantly disagreeing with all this. And again, you know, it wasn't

heated, it was just, I don't agree with that and I don't, you know, all this. And then I literally had this epiphany, I'm like, oh, I guess I'm affirming, like, I guess I am. And you know, I don't agree with any of them on this. And now, and that was like, that was the moment for me. But when I came out publicly saying that, I stopped getting invited to preach in a [00:56:00] bunch of the places that I got invited to preach. I had people, like at some of the churches where I, I would speak out, they would look up previous videos and stuff that I've done and they would find that, and then they would bring that up to the elder. Like, I literal had this, I was speaking outta church. Someone found a video where I talked about Romans one, and I unpacked why I don't think that verse is, you know, the, the chapter is this slam against homosexuality.

Someone found that video, took that to the elder board and basically tried to get me uninvited from preaching. And I, I was already, I'd already gone out to the, you know, it was like I was already at the church for the weekend and so I ended up having to like alter some of the things I said in the message.

'cause they were just cautious. And you're absolutely right. That is the one issue that people just have no, no awareness of. And, and so I think when I, when I said, Hey, I, this is where I land on this, and now it's like I've already paid the price for it. So now I'm just.

Being more way more open with it.

Like, yeah, I, this is where [00:57:00] I'm at and here's why. And so I just had a guy named Brandon Robertson on my podcast

who wrote a book called Queer and Christian, which is phenomenal. And and then that led to another guy emailing me to talk about his book about coming out of conversion therapy. And so it's just like you realize like, oh, this is a well of material the church needs to wrestle with, is just, sadly, most of the church isn't.

So that, I would say that one, rethinking that one has like been probably the biggest game changer.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's a big one. I also, I had Brandon on recently as well. The episode's not out yet. It'll still be a couple weeks. But yeah, I really, I really enjoyed queer and Christian. And actually I think I saw you, like, had a reel or posted a reel or two about it which was sweet sweet to see.

But yeah, I remember even recently, so I went back to the church that I used to, the last church that I worked at, that I was a pastor at which I, I always respected the head pastor there, mark, for being willing to have difficult conversations, even to have [00:58:00] positions that he didn't agree with represented.

So he agreed to have a conversation on like, deconstruction with me. 'cause I was telling him, I was like, dude, like this is not only happening in your pews, but it's also happening on your staff. I guarantee it. So I went and we like did this cool like, conversation, whatever in the church for, you know, for the sermon.

And after the fact I found out I will not, you know, out them in case someone listens to this, but a friend of mine that works at the church filled me in that a member of the tech crew quit because Mark let a homosexual speak from stage and they were talking about me and I'm not gay.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Wow.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: And it was because I had my fingernails painted black.

And that they made that assumption, which I guess is fair. Okay. Whatever you can. Yeah. My nails are painted currently, but like, that really. It bothers people to the point where someone is willing to walk away from.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Okay. So why do [00:59:00] you paint your nails?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I don't, you know, so I've been doing it for like, I don't know, about two years now.

I remember kind of growing up I dunno if you can see, I'm wearing an Emory shirt, which is like a emo Oh, sick. Okay. So emo music, that whole scene always been my thing. I was the youth pastor that, you know, black skinny jeans, black t-shirt, backwards hat, much like I present myself currently. So that's just my vibe.

And I would always see like the bands would have like their nails painted or whatever, and I would be like, oh, are they gay? I'm like, no, it's just looks cool. And so I was always too afraid to do it because of the association that people might assume something about me. And so I just remember actually being at Theology Beer Camp two years ago.

I. And having just a really profound experience. Two of the people that were doing live music for the event that year were Derek Webb and Ivy King. Ivy King is a queer indie artist. She's amazing. And she has this [01:00:00] song where she basically talks about how she grew up in the faith and all this kinda stuff, but she was never allowed to like, do anything with it, right?

Because she's gay. And I had this, this moment where I saw this queer artist performing on stage. Her song is, had a line in it that says, that's Atonement bitch. And

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: That's a great

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: my, yeah, right. And like my brother growing up, Jordan, my, my, I'm the oldest, he's the middle one. He was the one that always wanted to be a pastor.

That was never my thing. I was the one that became a pastor Jordan's Gay and has been ostracized by the church completely. And so to see a queer artist on stage now when I'm no longer a pastor, and she is, and she's performing I got very emotional. And for me, I was like, oh, that's atonement bitch in that moment.

Right? And then, so that coupled with Derek Webb performing and he had his nails painted black. And I was like, you know what? Like, fuck what other people [01:01:00] think. Like I, if I wanna do this, then I'm gonna do it. And I came home and I like was talking to my wife and I was like, is it weird if I paint my nails sometimes?

And she was like, I don't care. And so I've decided to do it. And it, you know, I enjoy it. It's not, not always right now they're painted. But also it does, especially in today's climate political climate, I'm more inclined to do it because I think it signals to people that you're a safe person.

And that like, you know, it, they're gonna be okay around you. And if some people want to, you know, I've been caught all sorts of names for it from by various people. And if they wanna do that, that's fine. Whatever, you know. So yeah, that a long, long answer to your question, but that's kind of the gist behind it.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Hmm.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: It looks cool and it signals to people that I'm safe.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I love that. that.

is, that is super. That is super cool.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: All right, let's see a question I want to go with next. [01:02:00] If you could have drinks with any historical figure, who are, who are you having drinks with and what are you drinking?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Ooh, any historical figure?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I'm excited for your answer 'cause you're a reader, so you could go lots of directions with this.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah, I could, that's a really good one. Hmm. I'm gonna have to think about it. Any historical figure, my leanings are definitely gonna be towards theology or philosophy for nerdy reasons. But also like there's some cool people that I really like that are outside of that world, that are still alive today.

Like there's a person who just made some major history that I would love to have a, a beer with, and that's Alexander Ovechkin, the captain of the Washington Capitals, and now the all time leading goal scorer in NHL history. And the dude likes beer. He's openly said on interviews after games when they ask him why he drinks beer, that he likes the taste of beer.

And I'm like, my kind of dude, so.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: It's not more complicated than

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Right, right. [01:03:00] So that would be really cool. Um hmm. So I would enjoy that, but. I don't know. I think since, and this is, you know, basically just because of where I'm at in my mind space currently, I'd be really interested to talk to some of the kind of like death of God theologians and philosophers you know, over a beer or, you know, you know, wine, whiskey.

I try, I tend to stay away from hard alcohol 'cause that's when my brain stops behaving properly. So probably beer, but I just have a lot of, you know, questions I'd want to ask them. You know, clarification on some things you know, like, Jacque Deida would be fun to talk to. Although I guess I'd have to learn French, which might be difficult, but I, yeah, I don't know.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You could have a translator.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah, the alright, it's sick. Well then, yeah, the.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You just gotta buy 'em drinks.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: That's fair. All right. We'll go to a place where like, you know, somewhere in Maryland where the brewer [01:04:00] the breweries still know who I am. 'cause I used to brew in Maryland and they give me free beer, and then he'll think I'm paying for him, but

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Nice.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I just tip the bartenders.

Well, yeah. So I don't know.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: it.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I don't know. I feel like both of those are lame answers, but that's what comes to mind at least currently. But I'll, I'll flip it and I'll ask you a similar question that I like to ask on 20 ish cues, which is so for you, it'll be about wine. You get to have wine with any member of church history specifically.

All right? So you're hanging out at the, the bar, the winery, get to have wine, have a conversation with this person. But you notice across the room or at the end of the bar, there's another member of church history and they're just mean mug in you the whole time. And after you get to have your fun conversation with your buddy.

You then get to go fight the other person who's been mean mugging you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you get a drink with a member of church history and then you get a fight one, and [01:05:00] that fighting can be, you know, metaphorical. So it can be a verbal altercation, you know, or

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: this is a question you ask people.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. People love it. you can fight 'em. And I've gotten all sorts of weird answers.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Wow. Okay. So I

gotta give you two people's names.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. You're, you get a drink with one and then you can team up and fight this other member of church history after you're filled with the Holy Spirit, if you know what I'm saying.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Oh, yeah. I'd be, I'd be filled with, okay, so I'm having drinks with CS Lewis,

and

here's what I, I, I wish. So CS Lewis didn't get around to non-violence. Like he, he didn't ever land there. And I am, my working theory is just because he lived, you know, during the rise of Nazi Germany and it would be really hard not to want to oppose that.

Right.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: But, but my working theory is if you could get [01:06:00] CS Lewis in a pub today,

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: would he, would he have a different take on it? I think he would. And maybe this is just. My longing, but I think he's so logical, so rational. He's the first guy that I ever really read where I was like, wow, you're taking huge ideas and you're making them so simple.

And that to me, like I said, I love that. I think Greg Boyd does that. I try

to be that for people where it's like, I want to take really big ideas. And you even said like with your academic books that you know, you read, like taking these concepts that you either don't wanna spend the time diving into or in their current form, they don't make sense to you.

And then almost being that, that bridge, that translator, I think CS Lewis is was one of the best to do that.

But there's a few things that I would love to see, like, Hey, are you really landing here still? Or is this like you were a product of your times? So we would be talking about, he was a beer guy, so I don't know if I could get him to drink wine, but hopefully I could.

So in this story, [01:07:00] he's drinking wine with me and we're gonna talk about nonviolence, which is then gonna be challenged. Because you know who's at the end of the bar is Saint Augustine.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Oh, all right.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I want to throw down with him because he has said some horrible things that the rest of us have had to unpack for people. And you know, there's lots of, lots of things that I would take issue with Augustine on. And so yeah, I think that, but it would be a good practice for me and for my newly converted nonviolent CS Lewis to harness the spirit nonviolently in how we confront Augustine.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Nice. I love it. I love that you weave storytelling into it as well. I can see, I can tell that you're a good preacher, you know, just based off how you can, how you can weave story like that. Yeah. 'cause I mean, that's, that's fun. That's the first, I think you're the first person who said CS Lewis to have to have a [01:08:00] drink with.

Yeah. But you're not, I think you're maybe the second person to say fight Augustine. He comes up,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: some other people bothered by him. Huh.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah, Calvin comes up often. I got Christopher Columbus one time as somebody that they'd like to fight. Yeah. So that's, I don't know. That's always a, a fun one. I have another crowd pleaser question for you that I'll ask you next but

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Okay, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with a fun one that I have.

I've never asked this, but I do have like, some questions that I normally ask. I haven't even got to those yet, so maybe I'll, I'll hit those next. But I, I was curious where you'd go with this one. If you had to sum up your theology in a meme,

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Ooh,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: what would it be?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: in a meme.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I'm gonna

pour more wine while you're thinking about this.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah. Amen.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: This conversation.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: me too. This is a lot of fun. I think I would need to find a [01:09:00] meme that best represents like love. So like, maybe, don't know, is there some kind of meme of like a big cuddly creature, like offering a hug or something like that?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I am thinking of Baymax as you're describing

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Ooh, Baymax would be actually awesome for this. Okay, so Baymax is the character in the meme, and it's basically the gist of it is that what I'd wanna convey, and I'm stealing this language, this is quoting Trip Fuller.

The truest thing about you is that you're known, seen and loved by the Divine. And I want Baymax to be that representation, inviting everybody into that. And then you can do the cool fist bump and go, yeah, yeah, that's where I'd wanna go. Baymax is

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: We need this to exist. We need, we need this to exist. That's amazing.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. And Baymax is perfect. I haven't thought about Baymax in that, that way before.

So now [01:10:00] you got my brain turning. I took it, I wrote it down. It's a note. Baymax.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: That's yours. Now no one can take that from you.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: All right. Well here, this, so. This is a fun question I love to ask 'cause I always get different answers on this one. And sometimes really weird unexpected answers. So it's, again, it's a two-parter but if you could cut one book out of the Bible, so you're ditching a book outta the Bible, which book would you get rid of?

And then also you can now canonize any written document. So Ditch, ditch a book and Canonize one. Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Man that is, see, this is a question I would wanna, I would want to spend a lot of time on 'cause I feel like I, it's like a genie that I would waste my wish on, you know? And then later I'd be like, shoot, I said the wrong [01:11:00] book. I should have done this book. Oh man, what book am I cutting out? My mind is going of like, what's the most misused book in the Bible?

That's kind of where I'm feeling like, and my, my top two ones hitting my head are Romans and Genesis.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Cool. Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I actually like both the books.

I just think they are used to create a lot of damage and a lot of Christianity today. You know what, I'm gonna stay on the L-G-B-T-Q theme. We're gonna take out Romans.

Because we're gonna, we're gonna take out Romans one right out. 'cause I think it's misunderstood anyways, so you no longer have that. You don't get to use that. And then what book am I replacing with? Oh man. Oh, that's such a good [01:12:00] question. I'm gonna go, I think I'm gonna go Cross Vision by Greg Boyd.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Oh, nice. Mm-hmm. I have,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: So he actually had one, the academic one's called Crucifixion of the Warrior God,

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: mm-hmm. Big two

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: cooler title.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: parter. I read that originally. And that sucker. It's incredible. So it depends, like do we want the the easier reader version in the Bible or do we want the academic one? I'll, I'll let that listeners can decide that. But there's an academic one. There's a, an easy, easier to read one that doesn't get into as many cool details, but you can make it all the way through without wanting to throw the book off a, a shelf. So I think I would do that because that I think is probably the single greatest, like one book that I recommend to people who are struggling with what I [01:13:00] mentioned I struggled with in college was like, all this junk in the Old Testament, what on earth do we do with it?

And Greg was the first one that I have read. I don't think there's many that have attempted this, which is rather than just defending. These horrific passage in the Old Testament, I'm actually gonna show you how they help you understand Jesus better. And I remember when he was working on the, he was writing this book, he told me that premise. I was like, I don't know, Greg, I don't know if you can do that. Like, that seems like a lot. And then I read it and I'm like, oh, okay. You did it. You, I, I think so, and I know not everyone was convinced by that book, but maybe I'm biased, but I, I felt like that was amazing. And that book I give to people who are wrestling with that of like, gosh, God looks awful.

I mean, God's a dick in the Old Testament. And then it's like, and now he, he's Jesus. It's like, what are we supposed to do with this? I mean, literally, I tell people listeners of of my show will have heard this already, but I think the worst [01:14:00] chapter in all of the Bible is numbers 31. I've said like, that is the most horrific, barbaric, like. Just awful depiction of God who gets, God gets his own versions of as spoils of war that are literally designated. I just think like there's so much, just so gross about that. And so like when you read that, you know, and I've had people in my church before that's like, yeah, that's, that's what God is like, I'm like, no, he's not.

Like, not at all. So cross vision's the book that helps. I think people work through that.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: That is a, that's a tricky, I'm gonna rethink that question

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Alright.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I'll be laying in bed tonight. I'm like, no, I should have said this.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Right on. Well,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: gonna haunt me with that. I.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: it's a fun one. I mean, I Cross vision's great. And that and Crucifixion of the Warrior, God, I, both of, or I guess technically all three of those books made it through my slimming down of my shelves. I've maintained them and still enjoy them. And actually that's one of the books that I was happy to read [01:15:00] with Pastor Mark.

The last pastor that I worked with, he was kind of down with it. So that was kind of cool. Yeah, that's some solid answers we've got. I've gotten so many weird things, dude. Like my one friend Sarah wanted to canonize the Taco Bell menu 'cause she was trying to think of like the thing that could least cause harm to people.

And she was like, if you mess up the Taco Bell menu, that's on you. Like,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I do love Taco Bell.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Taco Bell doesn't love me. We'll, we'll leave it at that.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Hmm. Okay. Say, say, say no more. Alright. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Ooh man.

I could, you know, continue on the L-G-B-T-Q theme, but I feel like we've talked about that a lot. But like, I literally had, I gave my brother a book written by a, a gay Christian who claimed to not be gay anymore and living celibate and like, that's one of the biggest regrets I have in my life. Luckily he did not [01:16:00] hold that against me and was just like, whatever.

This is just Josh being in, being Josh. And I was in college when that happened. So that, that's a big one. I mean, hmm.

Things that I taught, I think for me, honestly. Even though I wrestled with it a lot, I'm not super comfortable with how I used to talk about Atonement. Even though I like, you know, obviously there was a point in my life when penal substitutionary atonement was my perspective. And I would speak out of that place and then I shifted, you know, I had some different perspectives, but I think in general I've just been wrong about that.

And that oftentimes atonement theology has ramifications that we don't think about. And I'm not comfortable with [01:17:00] how some of the ways I've talked about atonement portrays God, how it portrays the relationship between father and son how it portrays relationship between us and God, these kind of things.

Today when asked about Atonement, i, you know, before could have spouted off something snappy, and I don't really know. This happened to me recently. I was at an event on a panel and someone asked like, I wanna know what the panel's thoughts on atonement is. And I sent it to the other side of the panel first.

But then when I was forced to answer, I basically, what I said was like, I don't really know what I think about atonement anymore. But what I do know is that in the person of Jesus, we find a God who, one chose not to be God without us. Two demonstrated that God would rather die for a cause than to ever kill for one.

And three chooses solidarity with all of those who die, cross dead in [01:18:00] history. And that's about all I could muster. That sounds pretty cool to me. But there's some people that would want more out of that, right? And so, I think. That's, that's one that, that I think I'm not comfortable with how I used to talk about, and it probably has had some negative impacts and consequences on people that I wish I could take that back.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Hmm.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Did that answer your question? My A DHD brain kinda went off with that one.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: No, that was good. Yeah. You

went more on like things that you've taught, which is, that opens up a whole nother can. I was just talking more like what have, what did you used to believe that you changed,

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Oh,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: you add, you added an element, which is interesting of things that you taught. Man, just so many sermons that I look back on 'em just like, Ugh, I cannot believe I said that.

You know what I mean? Or like just. But I always have to remind myself like, that's the sign of growth. Like if you don't ever have that moment, if [01:19:00] you never look back on something that you go, I cannot believe I did that then you're not growing like you're the same person. You know that you were and we're not the same people we were, which is cool, but it also means you have these kind of regret stories of like, I cannot believe I, I believe that, or taught that or gave that book out, or whatever.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And I think for me, I remember having an experience one time where I was kind of looking over my bookshelves, which I don't know how many you can see, but there are many in this room overflowing. And I was like, man, I can't believe. I read that book or like this was helpful or whatever, but I kind of had this moment where I was like, hold on Josh.

Like that's not fair. Like each of these books was super helpful at a particular point in time for you and a part of like your own kind of spiritual growth and journey. And so there was kind of like an invitation in that moment that I felt like, okay, [01:20:00] how can we have, how can I have grace for past versions of Josh who was just doing the best that he could with what he knew at the time?

So like, yeah, that's how I try to think about, you know, some of the things that I might've said or taught in the past, or systems that I may have per, you know, continued to perpetuate. Is that trying to have grace for myself. But yeah, there's, I mean, if it's just yeah, belief like hell, all sorts of crazy stuff about demons, the rapture, you know, to name a few were big ones for me that I don't even have categories for anymore.

But yeah. Here's let's see for you. All right, I have two questions that are very closely related. All right, I'll, I'll give you this one first. Why are you still a Christian?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Because I can't quit Jesus. And

Jesus continues to be the most. Beautiful [01:21:00] expression of all that is true. All that is right. All that is beauty itself that I've ever seen. And I've never seen anything that can rival Jesus. And

I've looked and I continue to look and it's, it's hard for me. And you know, you had kind of expressed earlier, there's days when you don't think of yourself, like as a Christian I understand that.

'cause there's, there's days where I look at Christianity or things done in the name of God or labeled in the name of God. And it just so grieves me that I'm like, I want nothing to do with this. Like, I just watched this week, you know, there was that clip of the White House press secretary praying with her team before she, you know, goes out there and then like objectively lies to everybody, you know, and they can like prove that what she's saying is not true.

And I'm like, you just literally like summon the name of of Jesus over that. And

there's just days that I'm like, I, I, like, I can't get [01:22:00] far enough away from whatever that is

and, you know, call it whatever you wanna call it. I would say at a minimum it's taking the Lord's name in vain,

but just all of that.

And yet I do not find that with Jesus. And when I read the gospels, I'm just so enamored with this. This person that just doesn't fit any mold, doesn't play to, doesn't play to power, doesn't play to the hype. And just seems so, so intriguing to me. And I'm just drawn in because I, I, I fully believe that me following Jesus has brought out the best version of me and has made me a, a, a, a way, fuller version of who I am.

And I would not be that without Jesus. And I think that's the hope of the world.

And. You know, I get asked, I got asked this last week, this question I was talking to someone about [01:23:00] how I didn't believe in the traditional view of hell, and they said, well, what's the point of sharing Jesus with people? And I said, the point is that Jesus is the source of life and beauty and truth. And I wouldn't want anyone to go another day without experiencing that.

And that's who I think Jesus is. Like I wouldn't want anyone to miss out on that. And not because you're scared of what God's gonna do if you get it wrong, but because you can go everywhere else and then you can find everything you've ever been looking for in, in this person of Jesus.

And so

that is why I still am a Christian, although I'll admit this to you, and I've said this before on my podcast, but I find this, and I don't know if this is true for you. When I meet someone and my first thing in the conversation is they'll say like, I'll find out that they're a Christian. I immediately assume I'm not going to like you and we're not going to agree. And I've realized like I'm a functional atheist at this point. Like

not in the, in my belief, 'cause I still believe [01:24:00] in Jesus, but in how I interact, like I don't functionally fit into, at least in the United States, this evangelical, mainstream version of Christian. I just don't fit into it. So when I meet people there, and like my wife and I, you know, she took me out for like my last birthday.

We went to a resort for the night and we're swimming in the pool and we meet this couple next to us and they mentioned that they go to some church or whatever. And then I'm like, immediately I'm like, the conversation's gonna go bad. And it did. It did go bad.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Dang it.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: how the Bible preaches against gay people.

And I just like, yeah, we're not those kind of Christians. You know? And then it was like, what do you mean those kind of Christians? So like there's so much about Christianity. But that goes back to my original answer of I'm trying to help people deconstruct the junk,

reconstruct something new that looks like Jesus. And the line that I often use is, good theology is theology that looks like Jesus. So we we're working

through hell or sexuality or [01:25:00] anything. You're working through whatever the issue is. Good theology is theology that looks like Jesus. So how do you get a Jesus looking answer to whatever it is you're working through?

And that's why it's why I'm still here, man.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Snaps, no notes. Dude, I I love asking people that question 'cause you get a variety of answers, right? And but Jesus seems to be the thing that keeps people around and I mean, that's, that's very true for me as well. So, yeah, it's a fun one.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Alright. What is something blowing your mind right now?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Ooh. Yeah. So I went to a talk the other night. There's an independent bookstore. Not too far from me here in Baltimore called Red Emmas. Shout out to Red Emmas. They're wonderful and they host conversations there on a regular, but this one happened to be between a philosopher slash theologian that I already had lined up to come on the podcast.

Turns out they live in Baltimore. Super [01:26:00] cool. And another philosopher who is from Sweden, and they were having a conversation on the climate crisis and how economics play into that. And so the critique that the individual who I, I want to say his name, but I feel bad 'cause I'm not gonna be able to say it correctly 'cause I heard him say it and it's, it has like a little circle over the A in his name.

'cause it's like

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: We're not equipped to

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, right. To me it says stale. Holon, but like, that's not right. I butchered it. But the argument that he was making is actually that capitalism breeds crises and crises necessarily reproduces capitalism. And he said that, you know, he then laid out like historically all of these different major economic crises in US [01:27:00] history and ask the question like, okay, who benefited from these things?

And it was always the ruling class, the super wealthy and who was impacted the most by these things. And it's always those on the margins because crises always hit from underneath. And so him framing things that way, kind of like. Like you said, blew my mind and set off some like aha type moments for me to the point where I bought his freaking book.

I'm going to interview him in a couple weeks on the podcast. But it just feels like it brought some clarity you know, to some things that may or may not be going on in the US today. And was, was super helpful. So it's not like a theology or philosophy. What's philosophy, but it's not like related to faith stuff.

But his critique was interesting and I think in general hearing critiques of like my country that I grew up in from those who are outside of it and didn't grow up here are [01:28:00] interesting because they kind of have a different perspective on it. Right. So, that kind of blew my mind and I've still been thinking about that a lot.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I love

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Yeah. And that

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: the fun thing about having a podcast is you can like see someone or read something. Then you're like, I'm gonna get you on the show and we're

gonna unpack this. And I love reading books when I know that the author is gonna be on the show. I. Because then I, I read it differently where I'm

like, oh, circle this.

We're gonna talk about this sentence. You know what I mean? And like, what a cool honor that is to be able to say like, Hey, I'm gonna engage in the person who wrote this sentence down and unpack it. And I think that's hopefully what listeners pick up as well. Like, oh, these are cool connections, you know, of things that you and I are truly just fascinated by.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, I absolutely, yeah, it's like the secret, you know, I have all these like nice sounding reasons why I love podcasting about like. Helping people. And you know, there's a line that I was told once about [01:29:00] like, if you go deep enough into your own story, that other people will find themselves there as well.

Like all of that's true. These are why I do the podcast. But a secret part of that is I get to talk to the people that I want to talk to.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Oh, yeah, totally.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: There's like a slight selfishness in there. But he was funny because he was like, Josh, like, you know, like, I'm no expert on faith. Is that okay? And I was like, yeah, dude.

Like, and I, you know, I sent him a quippy email back. That was fun. But I'm, I'm excited to talk to him about that. So anyway I guess I wanna ask you a question about wine because you do, you know, with at least the Cabernet and Pray bit you introduced wine into theology. And so I'm wondering for you, what's the connection?

Like, how do you see sharing a glass of wine with somebody? How does that, I don't know, impact conversation? Does that make theology better? Does it make it worse? How do you see that relationship between having a good glass of wine and talking about conversations like [01:30:00] this?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I think it makes authenticity easier. And like I said, I just have noticed that, that people, you, you get a glass of wine in them and, you know, there's, there's a Latin expression in vino veritas. I literally have this tattooed on my inner arm.

It says in vino veritas and a wine glass there. And it means in wine there is truth.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: And I love that phrase. And to me what that means is when you have you have a glass of wine with someone, the, it's more likely that truth is gonna come out. And it's

kind of this like liquid truth serum. And I just have seen it lower people's inhibitions, make people more comfortable. There's a, a wine theologian named Gila Craig Leaner and had her on an episode and she actually coined a phrase, I'm trying to think of how she words it.

I think she calls it the, I think she phrased it like the spirituality of holy tips, this, [01:31:00] and she actually talks about that getting a little bit intoxicated is, is a spiritual space. And you hear this and you're like, wait, that just sounds, you know, like you just want to drink. It's like, well, maybe there's something there.

And I would say to anyone who has had conversations over a beer, over a glass of wine, you've probably noticed, like those conversations tend to be a little bit more raw, a little bit more honest. And so I really enjoy that there is this thing that brings people together.

And, you know, for me, I, I I used the church space to do that for decades, you know, and then I was like, well, what if we created spaces outside of that?

And so podcasting allows obviously those conversations where you can explore it. But, you know, if you want to explore ideas, I. That are beyond what the typical evangelical church is, is currently at, where are you going to explore those?

I mean, you have to find some other avenue, which again, I think why is why podcasting is awesome right now.

[01:32:00] But it's also where, you know, we create events and we create trips. And I mentioned this wine and whiskey trip. We had nine guys who didn't know each other at at, at the, at the start, right. Who all flew in and end up sharing like incredible, intimate details about their journey with God and faith and life.

And

a lot of it was designed around these tasting experiences. And so to me it's, it's like I love wine by itself. I think there's so, such beauty in it. And I mean this is literally, to me it's a mix of the beauty of creation where we're taking something literally we were given, but then it's

also us physically partnering with God to create something, which you had mentioned that earlier of like what does it theologically mean to partner with God To me, every time you drink a glass of wine. It's that reminder of this was grown and you see the vines and you see the grapes, and then they were made into something by a wine maker and then it was aged and this beauty comes out and [01:33:00] now you can taste all these things that aren't in the wine. You know, people ask me of that a lot. Like, Hey, you said you got raspberry and cranberry.

Like, did they mix that, those fruits into it? It's like, no, those aren't in there. They just emerge. And so like, it becomes more than the sum of its parts.

And I think that's what intrigues me about wine, where you're tasting all these things that are not in there but you, you can experience it. And I think it's a metaphor, a very tangible metaphor for God. And then I just love that Jesus seemed very comfortable with wine. You know, obviously John two, the first miracle, John 15, he uses literally like the entire vine as an analogy to explain what it looks like to connect with God. Like this is incredible stuff and I've taught that. That story, John 15 in a vineyard.

And I, I promise you, it takes on a different tone when you read those verses and then you look over and you see a vine and you, you know what I mean? And you're imagining [01:34:00] someone cutting it and trimming it and shaping it, and you're like, oh, that's what it looks like. And then like, oh, this is, this is how Jesus explained intimacy with God.

Like, it's just so fascinating to me. So as you can see, like I geek out about that, but like, I just think there's so much there. It's such beauty and I'm just drawn to it and I, I, I just think it's incredible.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm. Yeah. Well, I'm here for it, dude. I, I feel like you need to come to Theology Beer camp. Don't let, don't let beer scare you away. There's wine there as well,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I do drink beer, I drink

whiskey. I, I'm. I'm.

open, I just don't, my problem is like, I'm not an I-P-A-I-P-A guy,

and so like when I was in Oregon, I'd be like, Hey, do you guys have a wheat beer? And you know, I didn't like to whisper it. They're like, oh, this guy, you know? It's like I just can't, I can't hang with beer drinkers

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah. No, no worries. We're, as Trip would say, we're open and affirming for all beverage

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: and that. Okay, there we

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. At Theology Beer Camp. But I love, I [01:35:00] mean, I love what you just said about wine. It reminds me too of like, you know, to tap into some of the, you know, more Buddhist side of myself when you're talking about like, wine being more than the sum of its parts.

All these kind of things. Like thi Han would talk about who is a, a. Buddhist mug who passed away a couple years ago would talk about doing things mindfully, right? So like eating or drinking mindfully. And he would invite you to like, okay, in this case, look into our glass of wine and see what and he was like, basically if you're open to the experience and you look long enough, of course wine.

And then maybe you're like, okay, so there's grapes here. Okay. But then also I can see the farmers who grew the grapes or the wine maker who crafted it, or you know, the vineyard workers who tended the vine as it was growing. But also I can see the soil that it grew out of, the sunshine that shined on the vine.

I can, you know, the rain that nourished it. And ultimately you [01:36:00] can come and kind of figure out that like the universe is present in this glass of wine if you have eyes to see. And so that kind of like. Slowing down to try to be mindful and just see how much, you know, I love how you talk about it, bringing people together, like how much it can connect us over, you know, a beverage like this.

Very similar reasons to why I love beer and and brewing and to see how that, you know, when I left Church World, the thing that I missed the most was my community. And for me, full Tilt Brewing became that community of, of belonging. You know, we sang together, we obviously drank together, we ate together.

We were happy when our friends were happy. We mourned with those who needed to mourn, and it is just a really beautiful thing. So I'm, I don't know. I'm here for it. Dude. I, this is a solid answer. Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Thank you.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: If you'll indulge me as a beer guy, I'd be curious to your answer. You've, you've had wine, you said your wine or your wife likes wine more than you [01:37:00] do.

If I asked you what is like the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life,

is there a story that comes to your mind? Is there a bottle?

Is, was there a situation have you ever had that moment where you're like, wow, this, this one is just, all of it's coming together in the right way?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm, that's a really good question. I,

I don't know, because for me, often when I think of wine, I think of being with other people because most, the majority of my wine drinking experiences are around going to a winery and meeting, you know, celebrating a friend's birthday or something. And so it's never really like this particular wine, but like I've, you know, I have tons of really positive experiences of sharing wine with people.

You know, that come to mind. But like, I don't, I don't know, I don't think I'm. [01:38:00] Wine. Cool enough to answer like this particular wine. Although I like, I don't know. I, I do love a good cab saw. I tend to stay away from like the sweeter stuff I know. I can tell you the first glass of wine I had was Moscato, and at the time that was great.

But today I am like not so much. It's fine. But yeah, I don't know. I know that's a, that's not a good answer. I don't really have one for you. But I mostly think of people when I think about wine, which is interesting. I haven't thought about this before.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: No, that's great.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: yeah. But

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: So I, that's a

question I ask people on the podcast and it's interesting 'cause some people, the thing they remember is a specific wine. Some people remember the place they're in.

So like, it was a, Hey, I was in Italy, I was in France, I was in whatever. And then some people will say, the people who are there with, you know, we were doing this.

And, and so it's always interesting to me. It's not, it's not like one [01:39:00] answer every time of like, well that was the, that was the most expensive wine I've ever had. You know, it's like, it's like,

not that Sometimes people are like, we were drinking out of little paper cups. You know, like it's always been

these different answers. But that's what's so fascinating to me about wine is it's not, it is all these different variables that can make it an amazing. Experience,

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No ab absolutely. And that it is interesting 'cause at first what my brain went to where I was like, okay, how would a wine person answer this? And I was like, what's the most expensive bottle of wine I've ever had? And the answer is The most expensive bottle of wine that was ever put in front of me.

I couldn't drink because at the church that I worked at, at the time, I wasn't supposed to. And they didn't tell me that until after I was hired and moved across the freaking country.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Oh

no.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: And my, my uncle and aunt took Noelle and I, my wife out to dinner and bought like this like 350 bottle dollar $350 bottle of wine.

And I was like, I, [01:40:00] I'm sorry I, I can't, I'm gonna get fired,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Oh, geez. That's brutal.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: so Noel gotta have it. And I didn't. I was like, dang it,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: See, so that was the best wine you've ever had. You just didn't have it.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I just didn't have it. Right. Yeah, it was, that's the, you know, that was the, my, you know, the tie in a theology joke. That was my radical wine experience. Then it was present, but it was non-existent

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Oh man.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I didn't have the ability to actualize the potential of that wine is very sad. So.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: on that one.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Alright, well, I guess, I have two more, but we are, we're cranking out on time

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: We are, we are.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: you.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: this is a, this is a hefty episode here.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: It is. And so we, we should probably shut it down this is a kind of a difficult question, but I'll, I'll leave you with this one.

What do you think is the most important theological question that the church should be asking itself today?

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: [01:41:00] Does it look like Jesus? I.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Ooh, nice.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You know, I could make it more complicated, but I would at the essence, you know, this, this idea we're all promoting, does it look like Jesus? And I'm amazed how often that's not asked.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Like, well, no, that's what we've always believed. That's what the creeds teach. Does it look like Jesus? Like, I mean, like, it's not more complicated.

And so many of the way I've changed my ideas over the years have just come from the simplicity of going back to Jesus and trying to be honest with myself. Like I like nonviolence. We've talked about a little bit,

I grew up with a very different view and I, I owned three different guns and I had my concealed carry permit at one point, and I would carry concealed with me and I would've been [01:42:00] fully. Self justified to take someone's life, you know, to kill a bad guy, to save the good guys, you know? And I, that's, that's how you do that. And Greg, again, who mentored me over the years, I remember had a conversation with me one time where he just said, heck, what did Jesus teach about? Like our enemies, you know?

And he has this way of leading me without being condescending, you know? And I'm like, well, we're supposed to love him. And he is like, yeah. How do you think we love an enemy? I'm like, oh, all right. He's like, no, like spec, like, specifically like, how do you love someone who's literally opposing you? So we started talking about it, right? And, and he is like, what if someone's like trying to break into your home? How do you love them? I mean, just weird questions, you know? And I just keep talking. And I had this one answer where I had so pontificated on how you could justify dah, dah, dah. I'll never forget. He's like, do you think you're making it more complicated than what Jesus actually said?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: I'll just never forget that question. And I was like [01:43:00] you know, now that you say that, yes. And just had to wrestle with like, this doesn't actually look like Jesus and the example I

see. And I think if the church asked that question on everything, on the way they spend budget, on the way they invest money, and again, I say this as a guy, you know, I'm on the edge of the inside.

I I have been the guy signing the checks for years, right. And even in that role, I would, I mean, I would oversee million dollar budgets of mil multimillions of production stuff, so like moving lights and screens and projectors and you know, and like, and you're seeing like the bills to, to buy these things.

I just remember going like, this is some woman's. Tithe, you know, some single mom bringing all that she can. And it was just like this tension always.

And I think that's a tension you should always have in [01:44:00] the church. Like, does this look like Jesus? And the, the minute you stop asking that and you go, yes it does, we're good, is probably when you're opening the door for a whole bunch of other stuff. And so I think theologically, experientially in in every aspect of it, does it look like Jesus, I think would be a game changing question.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, I, solid dude. I am, I'm here for it. If I were to somehow find my way back into church ministry, which I'm fairly confident would lead to a divorce, which I'm not trying to do that's, yeah. Right. Yeah. That's the question that I, I hope I would ask. 'cause I think that still guides so much of what I do today, even though I'm doing it from, you know, outside the doors of the church, so to speak.

But still very much within the tradition, so,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Okay, I've got,

I've got, I think, a good question to land this

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Alright, to wrap it up, let's do it.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: So we've been all over the place talking about all sorts of things, but dear [01:45:00] listeners and and viewers, we're gonna give you some hope here. So, here's my question to you. With everything you've seen, everything you've experienced, the good, the bad, the junk, all of it, what gives you hope

today?

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Hmm.

Yeah, that's a good question. I, what gives me hope today? It's gonna, I don't know, this is probably gonna sound like a, a cliche answer, but I think what gives me hope today is the people in my life that have continued to stick around and support me and be my friend and care about me, regardless of what my job title looked like.

Regardless of what my Christology looked like, regardless of what my, you know, insert theological doctrine here looks like. Those people give me hope. And even like the people in my life that [01:46:00] don't give two shits about theology or philosophy or that I'm a Christian or, or whatever, but continue to show up, continue to text me and check in on me and, and all these kind of things.

So I genuinely think people give me hope, the way that people show up for one another, the way that communities form. And it doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be, you know, like a mega church or something. Like, there's, there's just so many people that I can, I can think of that I'm grateful for.

You know, like two, like the two owners of Full Tilt, they brought in this hurt, beat up kid off the street and let me try to brew beer for their, their business. And two of them are still like my closest friends today. They're awesome. Or there's a bartender at a a bookstore that I like to go to that has been a really awesome friend and you know, that I can talk to and, and share my stuff [01:47:00] with, in a space that's like, not judgmental, but also like when it is judge judgmental, it's like the right kind of judgmental, you know what I mean? To like call you on your BS kinda stuff. So yeah, I, I haven't lost hope in humanity. There's even though I think the temptation is to do so, it seems kind of paradoxical to me that there are a lot of people who suck, but it's not everybody and the people in my life that continue to come around are, are what gimme hope.

And the way that I see people love each other and, and show up for each other and stand up for people that they don't have to stand up for. You know, the, there's still goodness out there. And that's what I hope that I can, you know, be a part of as well. And try to be a part of I don't know how good I am at it, but yeah, I think that's, that's what gives me hope.

People I still carrying on and trying to give into the things that are good and beautiful [01:48:00] and true. Even when everything around you is screaming, none of this matters. This is all stupid. Only care about yourself. The people who don't do that and continue to demonstrate love, they give me hope. And so I wanna be a part of whatever that is.

And sometimes that's called Christianity.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Well said, sir. Well said.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah. Yeah. So,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Well, dude, I feel like we are kindred spirits.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I think so. I mean, like. You know, black t-shirt hat, tattoos. I mean, your sleeve is much, is very complete and mine is not. So, I'm not gonna lie, I'm kind of jealous,

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: You got a little space there

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: I'm working on it. Yeah, it'll, it'll get there. But yeah, this was, this was super fun. I'd love to you know, hang out and talk again sometime, or, you know, hopefully maybe our paths will cross in in person.

I could think of some fun beer, wine things I feel like we could come up with. So

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Yeah.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: possibilities are endless, [01:49:00]

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: And I think what's cool is we probably are reaching very similar people with both of our crowds. And so hopefully you guys are swapping over, you

know, and

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Right.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: the other one. 'cause I think if you like, if you like one of our contents, you'll probably like the other person as well.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: very much agreed.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Yeah, it's like, it's like Christmas.

You find all sorts of new episodes to go to, go listen to or watch or enjoy.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Yeah, so I'm here for it. I'm, I'm excited about this. I'll obviously, you know, tag your show and all your stuff when I throw this out on social media and let people know to come check out your work. So

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: Well, Josh, thanks. And thanks to all of you guys for, for joining in on podcast inception day.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Woo.

jeremy_1_04-14-2025_130650: We'll see y'all next time.

josh-patterson--he-him-_1_04-14-2025_160650: Peace and love, guys.

Rethinking and Rebuilding (with Josh Patterson) | Ep. 47

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