Shame-Sex Attraction (with Lucas Wilson) | Ep. 51
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jeremy_2_04-25-2025_123125: [00:00:00] Well, today we're gonna explore a heavy topic, but there's a lot of humor involved
and that's one of the things I appreciate about Lucas Wilson, who is my guest today. He is a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Toronto Mississauga, I think is how you say that.
He's the editor of the book that we're gonna talk about in this episode. Shame, sex Attraction, it's survivors stories of conversion therapy. He's also the author of a book called At Home with the Holocaust. This is someone who lives in academia. But it's super fun and engaging and listening to him tell stories is fascinating.
So again, we go to some really heavy topics and things that I think we need to spend time processing. But thankfully Lucas helps us to do it in a way that is engaging and fun. So this is episode 51, shame Sex Attraction.
I have never shared this with [00:01:00] anybody publicly. There's so many things happen in this conversation right now, thousand years from now, people are gonna be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would've no idea.
Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say. You drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? You gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment, resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I mean, the camp to God is at Universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You tell me to drink and I just show up.
I'll also say as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, [00:02:00] you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the, the hospitality that this particular podcast. Provides folks like myself and I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that's very unique. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine early. The wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy. By the way, drinking [00:03:00] this Pinot Grigio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage. You really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: All right. Welcome to the podcast, Lucas.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Thanks so much for having me, Jeremy. It's very exciting to be here.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: This is gonna be an exciting conversation, but as you guys know, before we dive in, we gotta talk about what's in our glasses today. I have a, a French wine today that I cannot pronounce. So my, my rule of thumb is you just act confident when you pronounce this. So today I am drinking a Chateau de la Fran. I don't, I don't really know how you say this, but that's what I'm rocking today. is a Bordeaux blend, primarily Merlot, 95%. A little [00:04:00] bit of Cab Franc in there. This is estate bottled, which means it's grown, harvested, bottled all on site, which is kind of cool. They still do this. The, the color of these, as you'd expect from a Bordeaux wine is super dark deep ruby, almost black cherry in the glass. And I, I love when you go old world wines, you get a lot of that minerality in it. You get a Bordeaux Earth, this is like pencil shavings and damp gravel, and so you get a little bit of earthiness in there it's merlott, it's medium to full body, so not necessarily as big as you might expect. Those are usually more of the Cabernets that have that, but this one's got cherry, plum, subtle little tobacco and some cedar in it.
And it's actually, it's, it's warm where I'm at, but it's, it's a very nice afternoon wine. I'm enjoying it. So, Lucas, that's what I've got. You're, you're gonna come at this a different angle and and I'm
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Like,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: it. So what do you got?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: like a com, a completely different angle, [00:05:00] particularly because the, the all of the writing on this wine is in Spanish and I don't speak Spanish. And so I, what I can gather from this,
res Reserv. Oh God, listen to this. This is just pathetic. Di la familia. It's a chardonnay. And I can gather that it's from Uruguay. 'cause Uruguay is spelled the same way in English as it's in Spanish. So we got that.
We and I, I haven't taken a sip yet, and so I don't know what this tastes like. And again, I, I said before, I'm not a classy gal.
But here we are with my non glass of, or my non-wine glass. Glass. I don't know what kind of glass this is. But here we're, I mean, it smells like white wine. It probably tastes like white wine. Let's go for it. Yep, exactly as I thought white wine. I, I have, I have no idea how to, you know, navigate these waters when it comes to, to alcohol.
Partic in, in general, but wine more specifically, maybe beer. I can do a little bit better of a job, but I. [00:06:00] Dear Lord, I am starting off real strong here. Huh? In this
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: So
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: podcast.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: it, it, it comes down to this. There are wines you like and there are
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: like, and everything else is icing on the cake. So do you like that wine, yes or no? That's all you really gotta answer.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yes. Unlike, you know, a lot of the hearings that we've been watching on social media and elsewhere online recently, where, you know, that's yes or no answer, and they just say more than yes or no, which I've just done. I will say yes. Yes. I like it.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Then great. Cheers to you. You've got a glass of something you enjoy. We, we have our wine ready. We are ready for a great conversation. Now we're gonna talk about conversion therapy, which is something admittedly for straight people, we don't either fully understand what it is. Certainly probably don't have a ton of experience with it. And so it's one of those, I think a lot of people may go, okay, I've heard of that. I, I may be somewhat aware of it, but I think it'd be helpful as we begin. How would you [00:07:00] describe what conversion therapy is? And maybe it's stated goals of like how is it.
presented to people so that we have that as a, a frame of reference?
I.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah, so at its core conversion therapy are efforts to change in individuals individual sexual orientation. Or gender identity or, and or gender expression. So really it's trying to align queer people with the heteronormative model. And typically these days when we're talking about conversion therapy or more broadly conversion practices, we're thinking really in, in the, the Christian context.
Not to say that it's only in the Christian context, it's certainly not exclusive to conservative Christian traditions, but it, it, it happens disproportionately within these communities. I sort of surprisingly, I, I guess for some people it actually, conversion therapy didn't originate in religious context.
It actually reli originated in secular context, particularly in medical and psychiatric context. But once we hit the seventies, it became much more of a Christian phenomenon and picked up speed into the eighties and into the nineties at the height of the ex-gay movement and then [00:08:00] into the two thousands.
And, you know, to where we are now it's 100%. That's actually, that's a, that's a misleading percentage. It's very much a Christian phenomenon today. It's not a hundred percent but again, the vast majority of conversion practices are gonna be occurring within high control religious context, particularly conservative Christian context.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Yeah, and just to give my context where I first intersected this conversation when I became a lead pastor in a church in Oregon, within my first month, I had this lady that, that was in the church and wanted to meet with me and I, and I mean like wanted to meet with me, like kept emailing, kept calling my assistant, like I gotta get on his calendar. And I'm like in the first month thinking what on earth could be that important? I'm trying to wrap my hands around all these different things. What is this pressing issue, that she's got to, to meet with me about? And so she gets on my calendar the first month or two, and I sit down with her and I, I mean, I have no idea what we're talking about, you know?
And I'm like, what, what? Something is very important to you. And she goes, I need to know your stance [00:09:00] on, homosexuality. And I, I was a little caught off guard, just like, why, why? Like, why do you need to know my stance on this and why is this such a, pressing concern? And so I just started asking a little bit more, like, follow up, like, okay, what, why is this a passion for you and, what's your involvement?
Well, I find out she leads a conversion therapy ministry and, has been very involved in this. And so I quickly realized. Oh, I'm about to make an enemy here of someone that has been in the church that I don't resonate with this at all. And so, I'm trying not to make enemies in month one that would come, in the years to, to come.
But and so I just say to her, Yeah, I'd, that's not my thing. And I don't, you know, I don't do that and I don't, don't have experience doing that, and I don't think there's merit just as like, as kindly as I could say, I, I'm not going to do this. And she just immediately turned on me and was like, you must be the devil if you don't believe in this.
And then, I mean, immediately like went on Facebook and lit me up [00:10:00] and I just was like, wow, this is this. Like you were saying, this has become a Christian thing for a lot of people and that's how she saw her ministry. And so I just think for people listening to this, you may not have direct experience with it, but what this book does so well especially for someone like me who, this is not my story. Gives me a chance to listen and just hear the pain and the journey that you have gone through in so many other people. And as I'm listening to all these stories, I mean, I could only read so much of this in one sitting 'cause it's, it's just like a heavy, it's a heavy weight if you have any empathy in you at all when you're just hearing these stories.
So I, I was curious, why now, like, what led to, Hey, let's get all these stories together. It, it was, was a timing ride. Did something kind of coalesce for that? What led to the creation of this book and all these different stories together?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah, so I mean, first just hearing, hearing your experience with, with [00:11:00] that congregant or maybe not, not for.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: She wasn't for. long.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah, she got the heck outta there. So I mean, hearing that, I mean, like so often, particularly, I shouldn't even say particularly right now, like this has been something, especially from the nineties onwards, but before, before in the eighties and the seventies, your stance on, on homosexuality became this litmus test for whether or not you're a true believer, whether or not you are, you know, of God or of the enemy.
And so it's, it's oftentimes elevated right to a level of sinfulness that is over and above any other sin, maybe on par with like pedophilia and bestiality. But even then, like the jury's still out according to these folks. And so, it's like, I think that what, what that that says to us is just again, like how demonized queer people are within the church, right?
Like, how their quote unquote sin is seen as worse than, any other sin. And again, it, it's, it's, it's this litmus touch, right? It really serves as, a, a clear sort of expression for so many people. Again, I think it's a lot more complicated than that, [00:12:00] but you know, for so many people, whether or not you are, you know, of the fold or outside of it.
And so, that's just what comes to mind when you were saying what you were saying and, and telling that story. But for as to why this, this, this, collection came about, it was actually a, a DM on Twitter when Twitter was still called Twitter. I got this message from this, this editor at this press, and, you know, when I first received it, I, I thought like, this is some sort of scam.
Like, there, this isn't real. Like no one's reaching out to me on Twitter to start a, to, you know, write a book or to collect stories that, you know, that's it. And I, and it felt like, so I, I quickly did, you know, a quick Google and found out sure enough, this is a real, you know, editor at a real press. 'Cause you know, there's so many, like, what's the word?
Like predatory. I. Publishing opportunities, quote unquote that people reach out to you are like, Hey, do you wanna pay like $10,000? You're like, absolutely not. Like, no, I'm not paying to have my book published. But again, some people sort of, tried this. So turns out it was real and back and forth between me and the editor for a few, I don't know, like weeks, just negotiating what exactly we were looking for.
And I really wanted to have only survivors [00:13:00] voices in here. No, you know, fictional accounts. And as of recent, we've seen some, you know, fictional accounts from folks you know, who weren't survivors writing about. Conversion therapy and also even just like documentaries and, you know, representations of conversion practices that have been focusing, not necessarily just on survivors, but also on the perpetrators, those who are, you know, practicing conversion therapy.
And so I wanted to make sure that we were, have you, you know, we would only include survivor's voices to center those voices and, and to put those first. And so out of or pardon me, all of the, the contributors in the the collection are survivors. There are 17 of us. My story is included at the very end.
But then there's also Garrett Conley, author of Boy Erased, and, you know, the films based on that, that memoir if you've seen it. And he's, he wrote the foreword. So all of us are survivors. When. But as for, as to why, like, you know, right now, to be honest, it was like, it was an opportunity at the time like that it was just presented to me.
And, you know, obviously I wasn't gonna say no. It was super exciting and, you know, I felt honored that, the editor at that point had said, that they had been tracking my, my work on my public facing work about conversion therapy and like op-eds and [00:14:00] in mostly queer publications, but also a few religious, you know, the oriented publications as well.
And so when, when they asked, do you wanna do this? Of course they said, yeah, but I think that it's sort of serendipitous or, you know, maybe if to drop on my, my evangelical sort of lexicon a God thing from, from days evolved that right now that this collection came out. 'cause of course, recently for, you know, there was the, the Supreme Court made the the decision that they will hear a case about conversion therapy.
Later this year or early next year that, you know, the news came out, you know, like a month ago or a few weeks ago or whatever. And so it feels like it's a timely thing in the sense that there will be a decision made by the highest court in the US as to whether or not, conversion practices will be legal.
And it's a very, like, how do I put it in like the best ACA term academic terms? I can like stupid way of approaching this case that the person who's, who's, you know, suing is saying that they want to be able to exercise free speech and that's why they should be able to practice conversion therapy.
And you're like, dear Lord, like, what are you talking about? Like, any professional code [00:15:00] of conduct, does not make sort of caveats for your free speech. Like if your free speech impinges upon or interferes negatively with, clients or patients. Then obviously your free speech is like not a thing.
That's, that's not what matters. What matters is the practices that you're, you know, performing. The problem is, of course, that even though that is, in my opinion and the opinion of many others, like a very stupid approach right now with the way that the Supreme Court is stacked, it's not looking good.
So, at the end of the day, I wanna say like, this collection is gonna, you know, change minds and it's gonna go out there and, you know, people are gonna, you know, it's gonna make a difference in that sense. That's idealistic. And I, I would like to be realistic, and I don't think that that's the case.
I think though that it will at least raise awareness about, conversion therapy. It will raise awareness about, the effects of conversion therapy and also just giving survivors of, some representation. And so, again, I would love to say that this is gonna, you know, change the Supreme Court's decision.
I don't think that's gonna happen, but nonetheless, I, I do think it is coming out at a, a, a coincidental time or a time that that seems [00:16:00] like, you know, kind of perfect. But at the same time, just given the reality of what the Supreme Court's makeup is, I don't, I don't know what the, the effect of it will be.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Sure. And I would say for anyone listening to this, I, I, I think where, where as I was reading this book where I was thinking, okay, who, like, who would I want to read this and who, who would I think like this would be a great fit? I. It really would be for someone, I think w would be.
powerful if, if you're on, and I, I meet these people all the time.
I have this conversation all the time. People who are open to maybe changing their mind on, the, the whole affirming conversation. But they're not there yet and they're not there yet, either logically or they, they can't reconcile the way they read the Bible with that and, you know, so they're still working through that.
And, you know, I just, I have these conversations a lot and I think part of it is it's easy to kind of separate that as like, well, maybe I'll get around to it. Maybe, you know? 'cause if you're straight, this doesn't, this is not in your face. [00:17:00] You have to fix this. Right. Where, what happens when you read this book though, is it stirs something in you where you go, oh gosh. This is a problem and the way in which we are believing this is completely dehumanizing slash traumatizing slash I mean, fill in whatever word you want to use and you, you get a whole bunch of 'em after reading these stories where, where then it, it creates that sense of like, maybe I need to really rethink this a little bit.
And that's, I think the power of the stories in this collection. You say that the book isn't a how to manual, but it's a survival story, and so I'm curious for those who are new to your story, what did surviving look like for you?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah, so I you know, I didn't actually, I wasn't even raised in, in the church. I became a Christian in high school and became sort of like a, a zealot at the time. And then, you know, in my sort of like excitement as a young evangelical, I decided that I wanted to go to the world's largest evangelical [00:18:00] university which of course is Liberty University, Lynchburg, Virginia,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Which is
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: founded by the one.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: a funny reality that that's your school.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Oh my God. You know, looking back, like, I just think to myself like, what, what was life like? I always say now, like, we make decisions and they're not always good. Right. And so, you know, for anyone who's not familiar, it's Jerry Falwell's school, right? And then later on when Jerry died, Jerry Junior took over, and then Jerry Junior was pushed out.
Once or stepped down as if there was any like choice in the matter. Once it, you know, folks found out that him, his wife and a Miami Pool boy were having a three-way ling relationship. It was kind of hilarious. And by kind of, I mean like, just absolutely amazing. And so, that to give again a little bit of context, and so it's, you know, Trump has two honorary doctorates, you know, Mike Pence is an honorary doctorate, like Candace Owens is a regular there, like this kind of stuff.
Charlie Kirk was formerly affiliated with the school anyw who, so for me, you know, I, again, I made the really wise decision and looking back, it's so wild, right? Because I, I could have gone to Canada's best university. I'm from Toronto, and I was planning on either [00:19:00] going to University of Toronto again, like a really good school and liberty, and I chose Liberty.
So, yeah, my, my, my CV is, is there's a big stain on it and I won't say what it is, but I think you could do the math. So yeah, so I, I went to to Liberty and it was there that, you know, it was like for me because I wasn't. Raised in the church. I always had one foot in, one foot out. And I mean, I was in it to win it.
Like I was definitely, you know, full steam ahead, like for Jesus sort of again, like, you know, on fire for, for God. But I also had like, I, I wasn't like strange or like weird or socially awkward. Like so many of my Christian friends, you know, I wasn't homeschooled. They didn't go to a Christian, you know, elementary, middle, or high school.
I could hold a conversation that was, you know, I think novel for a lot of them. And so I think that for me, like when my big idea was to go to Liberty, I knew that they had a conversion therapy program, though I didn't conceptualize it as such. Like I didn't think like, oh, they have a conversion therapy program in those terms.
I instead thought about it because it was advertised as a pastor on campus who was a paid [00:20:00] university staff member to who helped two, two groups of guys. One the group who was addicted to porn, and as research suggests, you cannot be addicted to porn. But putting that aside for now and then the other group, those who were addicted to homosexuality, and I was like, guilty as charged.
And so, I thought like, I'm gonna go there because I know that it, they can help me and they can fix me. They can cure me of this, you know, affliction, this struggle that I had. And so that really was a big motivating factor for I, for why I went to Liberty. And so I went down as a 18-year-old.
And my big idea again, that this goes back to the idea of one foot in, one foot out, my big idea was that I. So in high school, of course, I went to a public arts high school. The writing was on the wall. Like they, everyone should have known, you know, who Luke Wilson was. But I, I went to the school and I always thought, you know, I didn't want to have a bad witness for Jesus.
I didn't want to, you know, sort of like give off bad PR if I'm out there, you know, going on dates with, you know, unsaved guys, and especially if they're guys right, of course, within the evangelical imagination. You can't be gay and Christian, blah, blah, blah. So I, [00:21:00] I was like, I, I I have to sort of be, you know, a, a good, a good kid.
Well, I thought to myself, when I get to Liberty, like. They're all Christian. Like I can go down there and go and like date Christian guys. No one's gonna tell on me 'cause they're just as guilty as I am. And then at the end of my time at Liberty, you know, I'll go and switch, become straight and off, I'll go and, you know, with some woman again at the time it didn't matter who as long as it was a woman.
And then I go back to Canada and you know, everything be fine. And that that plan really didn't, well for a number of reasons happened,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: out for you.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: believe it or not. And so I get down to Liberty and my spirit, one of on, on every dorm at Liberty, there were two RAs under then two spiritual life directors under them, a bunch of prayer leaders and under then the rest of us, like Plebeians who weren't spiritual enough, you know, to be on leadership.
And for me, I wasn't on leadership until I was in like my junior year. So, so I get there and there's this one spiritual life director on my hall who takes a very keen interest in me and you know, starts flirting and whatever. And I did, I had never flirted in my life like I was 18 years old and like thinking like, what is this what I [00:22:00] think it is?
Like, I don't really know. So super confusing. This guy starts making moves. Anyway, we have this absolutely bizarre like romantic encounter if we can be so generous with the term romantic and. Afterwards, you know, he wouldn't talk to me like he was like so awash in his like, you know, evangelical guilt or I guess shame, maybe both.
And he, he was just like, sort of like excommunicated me. And the problem was we lived on the same dorm, we were, you know, at Liberty a lot of things are, are structured in such a way that you and your dorm do a lot of things together, whether that be chapel, which they call convocation three times a week, or, you know, hall meetings on Tuesday nights or, you know, whatever.
Like people go to the, the cafeteria together, that kind of thing. And so I was like, well, shoot, like I wanna talk to this guy. Like something happened. And so I remember I said to him, I texted him, I said, Hey, we, we should probably talk about what happened. And he said, nothing happened. And I was like, oh shoot.
That's not true. Like, you know, just as, anyway, so I, I couldn't do anything, so I would just go and cry in the parking lot all the time. That's, I [00:23:00] was like, just devastated. Right. And eventually, like every, you know, good angsty team, particularly of the queer variety I wrote a poem about what happened.
And it was called, it was called, you ever notice how cold it gets in the Fall? Which is just like terrible, right? Like unbelievably cringe. But I write this poem and I, my,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: poem?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I still have this poem. You know what,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Can we
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I, you know what, Jeremy, I've never read this. And, and I've, I've told this story, you know, a few times.
No one's asked me to read this, but here we are. Let's see if I can find it. It'll be in my.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: This is what we get on Cabernet and pray. Friends, he, he is currently looking it up on
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: There. It's,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: and he
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: it's on October 20. Last time I opened, this was on October 24th, 2019. So this was six years ago. Oh gosh. Should I read it? Should I read the first stands? How about that? Because I don't want to,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Let's
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: know,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: the first in just so we can, we can really appreciate the [00:24:00] story.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: oh my God. I'm like, I'm like, you know, like the awkward shivers that like, sort of like paralyze your neck. Oh, the word inane in here, like, you know, the woman, the words and, and the word inane is in your poem. You're like, you've, you've done, you know, you've not done the job. Okay. You ever notice how cold it gets in the fall?
You ever notice how cold it gets in the fall? No. I know it may sound in name, but when the weather is so bitter as pain is imparted in your lips begin to quiver, you know it's fall when we walk down the red hall and step out the door, I realize it's not so warm outside anymore. You ever notice how cold it gets in the fall?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Yes, am here
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Sweating.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: it.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Oh gosh. I'm sweating. Dear Lord.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: what, if academia isn't your thing anymore. Poetry, bro. Poetry.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I've got a back door. What? That sounds like a, anyway, [00:25:00] nevermind. So on that note so I, so I write, I write this poem again as, as you know, beautiful as it was. I write this poem and I had a, I had a friend.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: or it was for you?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Well, this was a, this was for me to get it outta my system, like to, but again, it certainly didn't work.
As the story will soon reveal, I, but I, because again, like I had no one on campus, I imagine this, right? You're at a campus where you, you can't tell anyone what has happened because if you do a, it's not street cred to be gay at Liberty University. But on top of that, like, it's like there's always a threat that you can be kicked out for doing what, what I did.
And so I was terrified and, you know, I wasn't like telling no one back home knew that I, well, no one back home knew explicitly that I was gay. At least I didn't say I was. But again, I watched a lot of HGTV growing up. So, again, I think that people had a, had a inkling,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: did had an idea.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah, somewhat, if not completely.
So I, I, once again, I, I, I was sort of like, I would go to the [00:26:00] parking lot, cry, pray, and then talk, and then call my mom without telling her what happened or that I was upset. And then I'd, you know, go on with my, my evening. And this was pretty much like every evening that I could do it. So I, what I eventually did was that I was, I was at work one time and I was, I was a switchboard operator, so anytime you called the university and press zero, you'd get me when I was working.
And so it was great because, you know, half the time no one's calling the university. So I would just sit there and do homework. And I was, and I was also allowed to have friends over. So I had a friend Michael one time, and I used his name because he's he's given me the green light. So one time we were at my work and we're just chatting and, you know, doing homework and chatting, whatever.
And he knew that something had happened between me and my spiritual life director. And, but I didn't tell him what, and he was like, well, come on, tell me what happened. I was like, well, no, I can't tell you what happened. He said, well, why? I said. Michael, if I tell you, you'll, you're not gonna wanna be my friend.
And he's like, well, what the hell does that? Or what the heck? You know, he wouldn't have said, hell, what the heck does that mean? You know? I said, well, I can't explain it, but I did write a poem. And so I said, can I, [00:27:00] can I read that poem to you? And he said, sure. So I, I read Michael this poem and I love it.
'cause to this day, well, I shouldn't say to this day of it, I, last time, well, I saw it, Michael, last year, we, we zoomed. But to, to this day, quote unquote Michael, whenever we would talk about anything that even had like the, like the slightest valence of sexuality, his lips would quiver. My, the, the reason why I noticed it was my grandma's lips used to always quiver not about anything sexual.
I never talked her anything about, you know, along those lines. But she used to have these like, sort of like shaky lips. And I, whenever, so Michael, I, I noticed he had these like, shaky lips and I was like, oh, shoot, like something's going on inside of Michael right now, he's responding. But I said, I, and I, so I read in the poem and he says you know, with these, with these shaky lips, he says I think I know what I think I what the poem's about.
And I was like, oh, shoot. Like my, my cover's been blown. And so I said, well, well, what do you think the, the poems are about? He said, well, I don't want to guess and be wrong. He said, well, why wouldn't you want to guess and be wrong? He's like, because if I guess it, I'm wrong. You'll, you'll know about my struggle.
I said, wait a second. And for me, like as a young gay kid in the church, whenever anyone said struggle, like that was often reserved for when you're talking about like struggling with same sex attraction. So I was [00:28:00] like, wait a second. So we sort of like started fumbling back and forth, like testing the waters and eventually we're both like, oh, I struggle with same sex attraction.
Oh, I struggle with same sex attraction. And then, you know, we both find out that we're both young queers. And so we again, like we, we didn't really talk, you know, we talked about this every time we'd hang out, and that was, it was great in the sense that I finally had someone I could talk to and share my poem with apparently.
And, but on top of that. I, I was, you know, I, I thought to myself, well, I don't really wanna burden Michael with all of this sort of like, emotional weight that I'm, you know, carrying and like constantly like, put this on him. So I thought, I said, well, I might as well fast track that idea that I had of going to conversion therapy.
So that's when I eventually reached out to the conversion therapist on campus. His name is Pastor Dane Emmerich. And I reached out to him and I, I was like, but I was nervous. He was gonna find out who I was and, and then get me in trouble before I even went to him. So I was like, let me make a fake email.
With like, an identity or a persona that says like, different from, from my, from who I was as like 18-year-old gay loop from Toronto. I was [00:29:00] like, so I made up the email was something along the lines of like, Texas football fan or something stupid like that, right? So I emailed him and I was, yeah, you know, me throwing those pig skins around.
And so I emailed him and I'm like, Hey, you know, if I come talk to you, will I get in trouble? He said, unless you're in a self-harm, I guess, I suppose in a physical way, nothing you say will leave our o my office. So I was like, okay. So I went and that's, that's how I eventually went to, to meet with him.
And so that was that was really quickly into my freshman year, and then it was over the four years that I was at Liberty that. I I was in this program, I only went once to the group conversion therapy program that Liberty had. And that's what I write about in the book and the story that's included.
And so I'm, wait, I'm saving the the one-on-one story for my next edited collection. But yeah, that was, it was over the four years of, of my time at Liberty during my undergrad. Again, if we can be so generous with the term, like undergrad when we associated with Liberty University, you can just guess the quality of, you know, education I received.
But yeah, that's, that's how it came about. That's how I got into it.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Wow. [00:30:00] I just want to, I just wanna keep asking you to tell stories. This is. is exciting. Okay. There's a few quotes I wanna read from the book that you, you get into some ideas that are really powerful that I, I think probably a lot of people don't necessarily connect the dots the way you, you, you do it and then it's like, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, for example, it says the stories included in this collection offer a range of conversion experiences and what unites them all is the effects of shame. Without shame, the authors in this collection would never have felt compelled to submit themselves to conversion practices. And so really, you know, that is obviously something we've, throughout each of the chapters. How did the theological environment you grew up in, or you know, you came later to it how did the, all that shape your idea of this idea of shame around your sexuality?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: So I think to, to zoom out before we zoom in on, on, on my experience and particularly in regards to my sexuality, [00:31:00] I think about Christian theology in as, as a shame laden. Ideology, right? Like this is, this is something that consistently tells believers that who they are is, is evil. Like if we're, if we're being calling a spade a spade, right?
That it's evil. That it's wrong, that you're sinful, that you as yourself, even your, you know, your, your, your righteousness or your good deeds or, you know, you know the, the good parts of you. Those are filthy rags according to God. Like in God's eyes, that's the, they're equivalent to tampons, right? Like use tampons if we're using a, you know, modern day sort of like equivalent that, that's wild, right?
Like, I, I think that, so we don't really sort of recognize, or at least I didn't recognize for a long time how imbued into the very like, fabric of this theology of, Christian theology that you have to believe. Again, I, I, I'm gonna say with conservative Christian context, I, I think that there actually are a number of like hermeneutic or sort of like interpretive possibilities that, that sort [00:32:00] of circumnavigate this sort of phenomenon that I'm, I'm naming.
But let's talk about, you know, specifically conservative, Christian traditions, evangelicalism, pentecostalism, white Christian fundamentalism, whatever. So like within this religious tra or these religious traditions, you have to believe, like, that's sort of like why Jesus matters, is that you are not good enough.
You are not sufficient, you're on your own and you need a savior. Why? Because you need saving. Because of your sinfulness, right? Like you are not good at your core. And so that right away, like lays the foundation, lays the groundwork for why people like why people in Christianity or Christians, should I say why they struggle.
I think so often with shame, this is not exclusive, to simply to, to queers within Christianity. It's, it, it extends beyond that to straits as well. I mean, think about for any of us who, you know, gay or straight, you know, when we were in high school, you know, every time we looked at porn it was like the world was ending, you know?
And we just thought like, oh [00:33:00] God. Like, what have I done again? And it's like, yeah, my body has natural urges. Crazy. And so, you know, this was something that, you know, I think that it affects affected all of us, so many of us. I still remember, this is actually a funny little side note. I still, I, I, there was a gal that I was pursuing.
Very unsuccessfully. But she, she, she liked me somehow. And I liked her in, well, I liked her in like a platonic sense, and I was like, I really like her. And it was like, nothing more. But, you know, I really tried to push that and make it into something more than it was. So, I, I remember I went and visited her.
She lived in London, Ontario, and I was living, you know, in, in Virginia. But I would come up for I, I, I surprised her over I think it was like American Thanksgiving break. And so I, you know, surprised her. And we, you know, I, I, I'm at this coffee shop, I turned around and I'm there and she's like, oh my gosh, it's you.
And like, all excited, chatting, whatever. And she was like, grabbing onto me and holding my hand. And I still remember, like when she grabbed onto me that feeling, I was like, ha, like I don't like this. And like, then when she's holding my hand thinking like, I [00:34:00] really don't like that either. Like, it's so intimate.
And so it was just like, you know, imagine anyone that you just don't want to touch you who you're not attracted to, even though you're trying to, it's not a fun experience. And so. Eventually I told her, I said, you know, Courtney, I think we need to like pump the brakes here. Like, not that I don't want to date you.
I just, I think we're moving too fast. Like we had literally held hands. And so this whatever, like, this sort of like goes back and forth, back and forth. You know, I come back to Virginia and then there's sort of like, you know, I come back to Canada and we're negotiating all this. Anyway, long story short, fast forward to next summer, I went and visited her again and I said, okay, before I come, I'm gonna, I want you to pray.
I really want you to, you know, prepare yourself and your heart for what I'm about to tell you. Because I don't want, you know, I, I, I want you to take this seriously. I'm taking this seriously and I want you to know something about me that I, I just haven't told you yet. So obviously it was the fact that I was gay.
So, or I said that I struggled with same sex attraction. I, I, I was under the delusion with very little evidence that I was bisexual. There was nothing to back up that, that belief other than perhaps the gay part. So [00:35:00] I are the attraction to me. So I, you know, we, we prepare, she's preparing her heart, I'm preparing mine, whatever, blah, blah, blah.
We eventually we go to this park so that, you know, we're not by her family or whatever. And I said like, I need to tell you something. I said, I, I I, I'm bisexual. I, I'm attracted to men. And she goes, oh, you know what? I've been, you know, thinking like, what could this possibly be? And I'm just sort of like, freaking out.
You know what, you know, in anticipation. But she said eventually, she's like, well, I have something to tell you too. And I'm like, Ooh, did I just win the jackpot here for like the next gay Christian? Like, did I find a lesbian? No. What I found was that she, she then confessed to me. She's like, well, I look at porn sometimes.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: We're
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I love it. Yeah. I love it. Right? Like, yeah, this is the same thing, right? So let's move forward. Cool. But that was it. That was, it was just like the best I I I, to this day. I, I think that's just one of the funniest, like Yeah. In that, in her sort of like, you know, teenage mind or whatever. Yeah. I guess she would've been a teenager, you know, that that was, you know, on on par.
Any who so shame is certainly something that, you know, underlays, Christian theology [00:36:00] writ large. But then when we're thinking specifically in regards to sexuality and gender, if your gender is in any way non-normative you know, in how you express or how you identify, I think that for, for us.
Queers and I use queer in both the gender and sexual sense, just to be, you know, all encompassing and, and make it easier to talk about. But for queers within evangelical traditions or, you know, high control Christian traditions it's absolutely a source of shame. And it's, it, again, like I said in the intro of of the book, it's what brings queers into conversion therapy.
But it's also according to a recent Canadian study, the number one consequence of conversion practices. So it's both the, the, the sort of thing that attracts, you know, folks in, but it also is that which is compounded, and again, the number one sort of like fruit fun I guess intended of conversion therapy, right?
So I think that, you know, shame is such a central, that's why obviously why the name of the book is shame sex Attraction. It's such an integral part for conversion practices because if we, if we put aside the folks who are forced into it, and there are of course a number of folks who are forced into conversion therapy, but if we put [00:37:00] those folks aside for the rest of us who.
Quote unquote chose to, to go into it. We can talk more about agency and what it means to choose which I think is a lot more complicated than I think some folks try to make it seem. That I think that what we see is that, again, why would we be there if it were not for the fact that we thought of ourselves as a problem that needs to be fixed that we are, you know, something that is dirty, defective, you know, damaged incomplete.
Whatever. And I, I think that it's such a, conversion therapy is such a dirty business because it, it preys upon, or it relies upon really right shame as an integral sort of factor in one's, you know, lived experience for them to come into this, the, this quote unquote therapy. And of course it's not therapy, it's a misnomer.
I mean, there's also no conversion involved either. No one's ever changed. But I think that, yeah, it, it, it's wild, when you take that step back and when you're not within conversion practices or conversion therapy to see for what it is. And it's just this shame amplifying and also shame like hungry.
You know, sets [00:38:00] of, or it's a set of, practices that is, you know, again, it's predicated upon shame and it amplifies shame. And so, that's how shame comes into this, this conversation. And again, in more broadly in Christian theology.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Now I would say there's like a one-two punch there. Shame being one punch. Then one of the things I noticed come up in a lot of the different chapters was the threat of hell being used. And so it's this idea, you know, often by the person practicing the conversion therapy or the representative of that, if you don't do this right, if you don't take this seriously enough, if you don't try hard enough, that's what's waiting for you.
And so it's, shame might get you in the door. But then it's seemed like in a lot of the stories as I was reading it, this very literal, eternal, conscious torment view of hell is now gonna be the thing that's going to, to take over for shame. And now we're just going to literally scare you to death and get you to do all this. And I've. We're talking about a lot of things I've changed my mind [00:39:00] in over the years. So I, I, I was not raised to be affirming. I I got there after changing my mind. I also was raised with the eternal conscious torment view of hell and have changed my mind on that as well. And so now I envision, like a question I had as I was reading these stories, if you could remove the eternal conscious torment view of hell, hypothetically, right?
If you could remove that from all of these stories and that could not be used, how would that change do you think These stories? When, if, if we started, 'cause this is one of the things, not necessarily in this subject, but I, I talk about hell a lot 'cause I think it's one of the worst things in Christian theology that people think they understand the Orthodox view and it's really not orthodox and doesn't look anything like Jesus.
So if we could get people to remove that, do you think that would be in changing some of these stories? Or is it just like they would find something else?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I think that the vast majority of [00:40:00] the contributors specifically, but also folks who, who subject themselves to conversion practices in general, and those who are pushed to, to subject themselves. Like, I think that without the threat of hell, it is a threat, right? This ever present like you are going to burn forever threat and it completely separate you from God, which I think is actually the, the lesser of the two threats to be honest.
That without that, people wouldn't do this. Because again, the, the, the incentive for people to go into this, there are, I mean I if we're talking in the Christian context specifically the two big sort of like reasons why people go in, or they, they're, they're not gonna be able to be in relationship with God or write relationship with God.
'cause of course, within, you know, these religious traditions, it's belief that, either you choose yourself, IE your sexuality or you choose God as if it's some sort of choice, right? And so it's this false dichotomy that's set up for them that you, you have one or the other, you can't have both.
And so if that's the case. Obviously, I shouldn't say obviously, but for those who come from this context like that, that seems to them to be the obvious choice of, well, of course I would [00:41:00] choose God over me because, you know, I'm sinful, I'm dirty, I'm all these things. Right? The self-confidence is at an all time high when you're an evangelical, right?
But I think that you know, that's the first thing. But then I, like I said, you know, a second ago, I think the even more important really thing is that if you don't, then you're gonna go to hell. Because again, if you've chosen that, you're not gonna be in right relationship with God. Well, what's the consequence of that?
Of course, hell and so. It's this incredibly effective and also affective, and affective in the sense of like emotional pull to keep, to bring people into conversion therapy, right? Like, yes, shame is certainly what, brings people in, but they're not ashamed of themselves if they didn't have this understanding of sin.
And of course, sin and hell are inextricably connected because the the one leads to the other, other. Unless you have, you know, Jesus's sanctifying sort of, you know, or you accept Jesus you know, as your savior. So I think that those are two big things. And again, I I to, to, I I, I brought it up a second, you know, a few minutes ago, but I think it's, maybe this is the time to talk about it, the idea of agency, like.
What does it mean to make a choice to go into [00:42:00] conversion therapy? What does it mean to make a choice as an evangelical? To be honest, even more broadly because within this religious system, you, a lot of your decisions are made for you, right? You choose this or this, right, wrong, good, evil, love the enemy up, got.
It's this binary understanding of everything. Male, female, man, woman, blah, blah, blah. All of these sorts of, cons, constructions of the world force you to make a choice. And of course, within the evangelical imagination, emphasis, of course on imagination, you know, there's always one right answer.
There's always one right or wrong answer, right? It's so clear. Everything's so, you know, organized and me. And I think that for obviously homosexuality versus heterosexuality, of course, you know, the decision is made for you. You cannot be one. And so you have to choose the other. But again, this idea of choice is, so again, it's con, it's constrained.
It's. Circumscribed. It's, it's determined in so many ways for you. And so when you're told that either you choose yourself and just live authentically, or you choose God and reject, you know, the sinful part of you, you know, again, is that really a choice? Yes, in a lot of ways it is. But when you're in [00:43:00] a, a context, whether it be a family, a university like Liberty a church community, whatever, when you're in the, in a small town, right?
When you're in this, these contexts. So many of your decisions are made for you in so many ways. Again, not to absolve people and say, well, they didn't have a decision and therefore they, that's why they did all these awful things. No. Or why they chose conversion therapy. But when I think about, you know, conversion practices, specifically in just zooming in, I think to myself, you know, what does it mean to consent to abuse, right?
And conversion therapy is abuse on, on all levels. Spiritual phy in a lot of cases, physical or in many cases, physical, I should say. You know, psychological, emotional, et cetera. And on top of that, if we are to take seriously what the un ur and torture in 2019 described, conversion therapy, as it's in, according to their definition, it's torture as well, depending on the context, right?
So what does it mean to consent, to torture? What does it mean to consent to abuse? I don't think you can. And it's, you know, if you have someone like, a, a person who's in a marriage and, and they're abused, you would never say, well, you stayed in that marriage, right? Like that. That's never gonna be the thought.
But I think in this context, what we have to think about is if we [00:44:00] understand conversion therapy. For what it is, which is it's abuse. I think that it sort of changes how we understand people's choice, quote unquote, to be in there. They're coerced, they're pushed, they're you know, in some ways, many ways forced into this into these practices.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Yeah. And I, I just, it got me thinking, if we could take off that one horrible understanding of theology, how many other dominoes, you know, and like, and this to me is just one of those like, man, when you have this view of hell, it sets up this kind of abuse. And I wonder how many other kinds of abuse could we line up that are all, you know, affected by that one domino.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: that, this one I, it was like, oh, this kind of caught me off guard. But then I was like, wow, I completely see the point here. And I think you make the point really well in this book, this was another one that was kind of like caught me off guard. Conversion ideology and practices are genocidal in nature. And it, you talk about it targets members of this community [00:45:00] with the intent to completely destroy queer culture, queer identity, queer expression, and queer social vitality. Attempts to erase queer life, operate on a global scale, and constitute planned, coordinated, and long-term efforts. Talk to us about how do we reframe this in context of genocide,
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Mm-hmm. So this is an idea that is original to my friend Christine Robinson and her partner sp Sue Speedy. They co-authored this article called Genocidal Intentions, and every time I talk about conversion therapy, I bring this up because I think it's super important to understand it in these terms.
So, conversion therapy, if we are, again, to sort of name it plainly, the, these are efforts to completely get rid of, like you said, you know, queer vitality. Queer joy, queer love, queer community, queer representation, queers. It's to get rid of queers, right? To name it plainly. If these folks could have their way, queers would not exist.
I would not exist. [00:46:00] My friends would not exist. All of us would be gone. Like there would be no such thing as queerness. And of course we understand genocide, not just in a physical or bodily sense, where, you know, it's not just murdering or, or killing, a group of people or attempts to kill, kill a group of people or murder a group of people.
But it's also cultural. We can think about, you know, indigenous populations in, in North America and the decimation of these commun these, these communities, right? And these groups. And so when we're thinking about conversion therapy, we're, we're thinking about the effort to strip us of our.
Queerness. And you know, I oftentimes make the comparison 'cause I think it's an apt comparison if we're thinking about, you know, where someone says, and, and I, I, I still find it wild that today homophobia is still like the last sort of hatred that's like really okay for a lot of people that it's palatable.
Where it's like, if someone made a really racist comment, people are like, what the hell? You can't say that. Like, don't, no, don't say that. And they would sort of, well, you'd hope that they would address it. Most people, I think, at least in my circles, would same with sex stuff, you would say like, ah, don't say that.
Like, whatcha talking about stop. But homo homophobia within PE with, for people who are like, [00:47:00] it's like their sincerely held religious belief that's, it's okay. Like, oh, that's just their belief. You're like, wait, what? Like, that's okay. Like, excuse me. But I think that, you know, there are so many people who again, it's just sort of like accepted because it's, it's, it's a belief or it's a, it's a religious belief.
It's tied to religion. But when of course we know that sexism, racism, these are tied to religious beliefs as well. We can look at like Christian history in the past, well, since Christianity's been around. And see how women have been subjugated. See how people who are not white have been subjugated.
Right. And so I, I think it's, it's, it's wild when people don't understand homophobia and transphobia and the desire to get rid of us as anything less than, than being motivated by genocidal intention. Right. It's, it's an expressed desire that, like I said in the book, it's a global phenomenon. Like it's, it's a, it's not just exclusive to the US or Canada or whatever.
It's across the world, right. That, that, and again, it's, it's accepted that people like, well, you know, at the end of the day, people should be able to choose. People should be able to, you know, make their decision. And it's like, [00:48:00] dear Lord, like how is this still the way the conceptualization. Of this. And I, I think it's super important to put it in these terms because when we understand it as one of many, and I think we can all think of many, you know, instances of attempted genocides that are happening right now, right?
That when we think about it in these terms, we can understand the stakes. So we can understand that this is not something that should just be winked at or sort of like, oh, that's fine, because that's just what they believe. It's like, no, like, again, like if these folks could have their way, I would be gone.
And I always think, you know, and I get, I, I, I got off track, but I'll bring it back and I'll land the plane in a second. You know about when people will say things, you know, if, if people say like, well, I like him. I just don't, I just don't think it's right that he's gay. Like what? It's like if I said to a woman, it's like, I really like you.
I just don't like that you're a woman. She'd say, so you don't like me? I'd say, no, I just don't that you're a woman. It's like, no, because she'd say, I'm woman. Like, you understand? That's a constitutive part of who I am. And for you to say you just don't like that, that that part of me, well, that influences so many different aspects of [00:49:00] my identity.
Right. In the same way or in a very similar way. At least one's sexual orientation or one's gender identity or expression. Right. That these, these constitute of parts of who we are. If you're to say, I just don't like that part that you're gay, it doesn't work, the math does not compute. Right. Like it's not possible to say that.
And I emphatically reject when anyone says that. Right. And I also don't like really have much face time with people who say things like that. They don't really wanna talk to me. Strange, strangely enough. But, I think that at the end of the day, it's just, it's again, it's sort of this, there's a still this like remnant of respectability, if we can call it that, of like homophobia, that's like assigned to homophobia.
And you're like, dear God, like how is this still okay? You know, at least in some people's estimations. Like, it's just, it's, it's bonkers to me.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: You're totally right and you know, the, the phrase you're making me think of is the hate the sin, you know, love the sinner, and we can separate those cleanly, you know, and to, to the person on the receiving end of that. It's like, which, which part of me.
is, you know, like, [00:50:00] and you know, it comes from this idea that I think conservative straight theology teaches, which is, no, this is just a choice that you made, Lucas, you know, this is you, you made a choice, and I don't like the choice you made.
And I think the person is trying to say that. And, and doesn't in ignorance understand what they're actually communicating to the other person of like, oh, it's, it's not a choice. And it's, you know, you didn't have the option to choose something else. And Yeah. That, that falls apart pretty quickly. Now I wanna circle back to something, you mentioned this earlier, but this, this is one of the, the threads in the book as well, but the whole idea of the weaponization of celibacy in queer Christian contexts. I'd love to hear you, you talk a little bit about how does that distort both sexuality and spirituality when we, we emphasize it only for people in the queer community.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah. So first of all, if we are to look at the Bible, which a lot of evangelicals both strangely know very well in the sense that they can like stite a lot of passages, but have. [00:51:00] And a profound, like lack of understanding when it comes to anything like historical contextual or like interpretive. But putting that aside that Paul, if we are to go to Paul, our good friend Paul, who perhaps one of the main mobilizers of shame within the, the evangelical, or sorry, the Christian tradition I, you know, Paul says that, you know, he encourages people actually, he says that, that that should be the number, like, that should be the, the default is going for celibacy is to be single.
Whereas he says if you, if you're burning with passion, then you know, get married. So you can have sex is, is, you know, the, the sub thesis, sort of the, what's the word? The other, the thesis put differently. So, so first and foremost, like this is not something that, even should be, this should be offered to everyone as if it's a gift.
And I love the idea of celibacy as a gift. Isn't that, isn't that a gift? Right? Isn't that a such a, a, a present that you're, we're all looking for? Right? I always think to myself, like, I had an ex-boyfriend and he, I mean, he was a terrible person. But putting that aside, and I don't say that about all my exes.
I actually had a really, I have a wonderful exes, but this one in particular, I [00:52:00] think it has something to do with his religious upbringing. And his parents, and you'll have an idea of what I mean when I say what I say. So his dad, you know, he was, first of all, when he, when he first told him he was gay, he told him, you know, that he had his, one of his first questions was, so did you molest those two boys?
He used to babysit? Which I love that connection. That's always a cute connection, right? And then he said, well, you know what, you could, you could just be celibate like that. That seems like a, a really, you know, strong option right now for you. And I thought, I remember thinking at the time like. What a generous offer.
You know what I mean? First, you know, you, you, you, what's the word? Go at 'em with, you know, these crazy comparisons or questions that, of course, like just violent in and of themselves. But on top of that, then you offer this really, you know, really cute gift of celibacy. So it's, of course, these days when we think about celibacy it's oftentimes reserved for, for queers or who are fighting their, you know, desires which their internet histories tell a very different story that, that, as to whether or not they're fighting these desires.
But that's neither here nor there. And who am I to say? So, what I will say, I. Is that, you know, it's, it's oftentimes reserved for [00:53:00] queers that, you know, again, and it's framed as this like really generous gift. And it's just, again, I think that, that again, like as an option you know, I think to myself like it's, it's oftentimes you just reverse it on, on, on straight folks.
You're just like, do you want to be straight? Like, does that sound fun to you? Do you think that would be a fulfilling life? Like, again, we're talking about like a very natural biological function if we're talking just about sex. And of course sexuality is not to do with just sex, but certainly connected.
It's in the name. I think to myself like, dear God, like you, like what a, what a wild offer. But it is, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I think that there's so many parts of evangelicalism that present themselves as like, compassionate or loving, even conversion practices, right? This is framed as a compassionate, loving endeavor that what they're doing is for the good of the individual in large part, so they don't go to hell.
But on top of that, that, you know, they're, they're gonna find a way to sort of like, live with this. But I think that that speaks so clearly, just like this offer of celibacy to [00:54:00] the inverted morality of this religious tradition, right? That what is good is for everyone else, bad. For what is bad is like considered something to be celebrated.
Celibacy. You know what I mean? Like, these are things that I just find just while, and I think it took me so long to, for me to understand all of this once I got out of this system and really had that sort of critical time and space apart from it, that you just realize like how twisted this entire sort of like.
Theology is, and again, it's this inversion of morality. It's this inversion of ethics. It's this inversion of like the good life. And I just think to myself like, yeah, the things that that are offered as if like these are gonna be life-giving or clearly death dealing, these are things that I don't want anything to do with.
And I don't think any of them would want anything to do with if they were presented the option. And I think that, yeah, this is just one of many examples of, of how evangelicals are like an upside down opposite land. Just crazy.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: I never hear, I never hear [00:55:00] celibacy suggested in straight contexts, so it's not like, well, this is one tool we have and we know we, we recommend this for everybody. I would just say, like, as someone who has been in the church for decades, I, I've grown up in it. Like it's never used like that.
That's not how celibacy is used. It's always the, the wild card. Oh, you're queer. Well, guess what? You know, here's, here's how we can fix you and get you, you know, settled. But if it was the gift that we say it is, then we should be offering it to every teenager, you know, regardless of their sex. Say, Hey, celibacy is really a gift.
You should, you know, consider that. And we would think That's funny. We're like, no, we're teaching 'em. Like, go find your soulmate. You know, and, and, and as long as it's of the opposite sex. And so I think that it's just. I, I would just caution us as Christians, especially if you're straight, like, please Don't think about celly as a gift only for one part of the community.
If it's, if it's a gift, that's gotta be a gift for everybody. And if it's not a gift you want, then it's probably not a
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Don't offer [00:56:00] it.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Yeah, just, just saying. Okay, one more quote I love this. You say, one survey indicated that the top sided way that survivors have been able to come to terms with the effects of conversion practices was through supportive friendships with affirming individuals regardless of their identities. How can we, regardless of our identity, how can we be part of contributing something healing and ultimately life giving for people who have, E either gone through conversion therapy or are at risk of someone trying to get them to go down that road.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I think, you know, and, and both. I think the way to cover all of those bases is to say, like, queers in general, right? Like there are people who are, who haven't gone through conversion therapy, but they're at risk potentially. And like queer affirming practices like I. It's, you know, I, I think some people make it really difficult in their minds or like, sort of like think like, oh [00:57:00] gosh, how am I gonna talk to this queer person?
It's like, it's like, what do you think you're supposed to talk, like, talk to us like we're a normal person 'cause we are normal people and you could just talk to us like that. So I think that for me, I think there are a few things. One like talking to us, like having conversations, including us in conversations, in decisions, and if we're talking in like a ecclesial context, like a church context, then, you know, using affirming language.
Like I, I still, I, to this day, it's one of my favorite things that anyone's done. It wasn't in a church, it was in a, a tutorial. Actually I was in Divinity school not at Liberty. And I was there and, and the, the, the ta he would always do this thing where he would be talking about God and sometimes he'd say he, sometimes he'd say she, and sometimes he'd say they without any sort of qualification and without skipping a beat, it was just like talking like, yeah, God, blah, blah, blah.
She said, and I was like. And you're sitting there and as again, as like a somewhat deconstructing or beginning to deconstruct person, it was still sort of like this wild radical moment where I was like, oh my gosh, like did I just hear that correctly? And like I sort of like looked around the room and like no one else was phased.
I'm like the only like evangelical in the [00:58:00] room. So clearly no one else cared, but I was like, wow. So I think that, you know, using language that's affirming also, having conversations with us. Right. So for those who have undergone conversion practices to listen, simply just listening, like and not necessarily offering your opinion.
I think so often people, and this is for everyone and anyone in the world, we try to go for what's the solution. And half the time people who are telling you stories or telling you, like showing you their scars, they're not asking for you to tell them what to do. They're literally just asking for you to listen and affirm them.
Right. And I think that oftentimes what happens in the retraumatization processes is when people don't listen and when people, negate their experience or say like, that didn't happen or it mustn't have been that bad or whatever I still love it when people, I tell them I went to Liberty.
They're like, oh, it mustn't have been completely terrible. And I'm like, what? Like, that's your first thing to say to me. Like, first of all, it's true. Like it wasn't completely terrible. Yeah. I made friends and I have, you know, some friends to this day, but that's the first thing. Like, oh, it mustn't have been awful.
And you're like, what are you trying to like, like, what's the word? Like find the silver lining for me. Are you trying to like, redeem my experience? Like get the hell outta here. But [00:59:00] that's one thing. So it's like not to to tell them anything other than. That I love you. And even that statement, I think that sometimes we have that statement, but I, but I still love you.
And you're like, what? Like, we didn't need to add the, but I still like, you could just say, I love you. You know, it's always a wild thing and people are like, I don't, I just don't know how to talk. I'm like, just again, how would you talk to anyone else? Talk to us, like that. And so I think that like, again, listening is a huge thing.
Engaging in conversation, engaging people in conversations and bringing them into decisions and conversations I think are huge. And also having like very directed like activities, whether they be like a sermon series or, you know, have a, like a, a bible study or like a, like a book, like book club or whatever about queerness, right?
Like actually like, have some sort of representation, have some sort of conversation. And I think what's even more like, could be even more fascinating is like to actually have those folks lead these things as opposed to the straight person leading it, right? Strangely enough, queers have a little bit of life experience that can allow them to, to, you know, facilitate these conversations.
So I think these are things [01:00:00] that are, are, are awesome ways to, to make folks who have undergone conversion practices or are, at, risk of undergoing conversion practices or just queer in general. If you wanna have queers in your congregation, which I hope you do you have to actually like, engage these folks and if, if they're not engaged, well they're gonna go somewhere else, right?
And for good reason. Right. I, I wouldn't wanna go. I, I, I don't, I don't go to church anymore, but if I were gonna church and my church was completely silent about gender sexuality, I'd be like, then I'm outta here. Like, no thank you. Like, no, no chance in hell am I gonna stick around. Right. So I think those are, are are ways of, of, navigating these waters.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Love it. There's so much to this book that I, I really appreciate and I think you have. I think you have offered a gift, not only in, in, you know, allowing all the voices that you compiled and you know, you, you even mentioned there could, there could be dozens more that, you know, that could have made it to the book.
But allowing each of those stories to be told and honoring, honoring that experience. But then the gift for, you know, for [01:01:00] straight people to have a little bit of an insight of like, holy cow, we had no idea is so powerful. And know, it may not be the book that changes, the Supreme Court or any law, but it's bringing beauty into the world and it's bringing healing into the world.
And that's, you know, when When the world feels heavy these days, that's like all, I just like go back to of like, what can I do today to bring some beauty into it? Because it just feels like so much ugliness, so much hate, so much all that. But like, we each get a chance to, to do something, you know, to do our part, to bring something.
And I think you, you are bringing beauty into the world, and I would highly recommend people who are listening to this check this book out, it, that there's something that, it's a conversation we need to have. And I'm, I'm very grateful you did that. Now I'm gonna transition us. Okay, So now I want to ask you some questions that I ask everybody and we get to compare your answers to everybody else's.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Okay, I'm ready.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: You may need a sip of wine for this. All right,
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Oh, shoot. [01:02:00] Okay.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: question. I know you're not a wino. Admittedly, you've, you've said that, but I'm curious. I, I don't think that's your first glass of wine you've ever had in your life. Have You ever had a really good glass of wine? A really good experience if I said. Hey Lucas, Mike, what was like the best wine you've ever had? Is there a memory that comes to mind? Is there a poem involved in it? I mean, come on, tell us what happened
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: You would almost think that I was drunk when I, when I, when I wrote that poem.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Except you were at Liberty and I know there's no way you're
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: right. Well, you know what, there were a few moments in my junior and senior year, but we'll put a, a pin in that for later.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: were
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah. Not naughty boy at the time. Yeah. I was, I was, I I never got caught. That was the good thing. Like I, I, I did a lot of things that I absolutely shouldn't have done according to their, you know, student code of conduct.
But I never, I never got caught. Any who the best experience of wine or the best experience associated with the wine I.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: sure. So if I said like, Hey, what's the [01:03:00] best glass of wine you've ever had? Is it, do you think about a, like a particular bottle? Is it who you were with? Is it where you were? Is it a conversation you had? Like what's the, what's the story there? I.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: So this is something I, I also don't talk about typically, but you know what, we're on our second glass. Here we go. So I'm a rose boy. I'm like a, a cheap date for a, well, a cheap rose. To be honest. I don't need to be expensive. And I typically what, what I, what I do is in the summers there's a, a clothing optional beach in Toronto, my favorite place in the entire city.
You can understand why. And so I go with, you know, my friends or whatever, but I always bring, you know, at least if I'm, if I'm not doing wine coolers, which. Again, like Soge, but if I'm not doing wine coolers, I'm doing Rose, which again, like big old homosexual. And so I'll bring like a bottle to, to two bottles depending for the day.
And then just, you know, have a, a clothing optional time. Yeah, it's, it's kind of the [01:04:00] best. And if you ever come to Toronto, Jeremy, I'm gonna drag you to, to Hamlin's point, and you have well, you do have a decision. I was gonna say, you have no choice in the matter, but it's like, no, like that absolutely goes against like fundamental values I hold.
So, you have the option, but if you wanna come, you're more than welcome.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: we've
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah. Consent my friend. Come on. So,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: That is I, I've never had that story shared before. So,
you're the first on the podcast to share about a clothing optional rose bottle on the beach. I like it.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: yeah. Yeah.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Which member of church history you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you who would you not trust and why?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Church history, who would I choose? You know what, like who would I rather have a bottle of wine with is maybe the way I'm gonna undergo approach the question and then it'll answer the que like, would I rather like Jesus or MLK? Probably MLK at this [01:05:00] point. I, I know who for sure I wouldn't wanna have a bottle of wine with.
That's Martin Luther like that. There's like, well there's Martin Luther King Jr. And then there's Martin Luther that, let's go with that. That seems like a fun connection, even if, just by way of name Martin Luther like that, that crazy, crazy man. Like he said, a lot of horrible things. And, you know, even about his wife, like he talked about her in like, the most unpleasant terms of how ugly she was.
She was I don't know what he would say about me, so I wouldn't wanna share a bottle of wine with him. He talked about Jews really poorly, especially in his later years. In the early years he was, he was, down with hang out with Jews. But then, you know, once we get to on the Jews and their lies.
The treatise that he wrote. Strangely enough, he wasn't, he wasn't a fan. And so I would, I would say him, like, I'd rather like, he, he, yeah, he'd probably like drink like a bottle of vinegar over, like a bottle of wine, that weirdo. So yeah, Martin Luther, I'm gonna say nay, I, who I'm gonna say yay to is MLK.
I think that, you know, church history, you know, obviously extends into the present. And so I think that, you know, it's not so, distant history, but [01:06:00] certainly history that I, I'm super fascinated with and, and inspired by. So I would say MLK.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: What do you think MLK would have you drink? What, what, what tea picking
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yo, he, he would, he would share my my interest in, in Rose. I don't think he would share my interest in him. No, absolutely not. I'm just like speaking like what I want, what I want him to, to love. No, he, he, yeah. Like he, well, I would, I would say, yeah, he, he'd love Rose, but he wouldn't love Lin's Point Beach.
Maybe that's, and I can,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: much for him.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: yeah, but like, maybe he's full of surprise. He, you know, I, he's actually not full of surprises, but maybe You never know, right?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: All
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: You never know.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: on. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong? About
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Jeremy, do we need to answer this question
after all of what we've just gone through? That I'm a good poet?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: get to pick
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah. We'll, we'll put the poet thing aside. We'll put the straight thing [01:07:00] aside. What did I used to believe that I'm like, I no longer believe or I was wrong about
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: it turned out later you were wrong about.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Oh, I see. Okay. That I, it turned out that I was wrong. Ah, you know what?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Hmm, we got
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: This is something, this is a, this is a day of first that I'm telling things that I, I absolutely shouldn't tell this, but it's gonna completely jeopardize my reputation, but I think it's fine. I, honest to God, up until about last year, maybe the year before, I don't remember when I thought that eggs, like when, when a chicken lays an egg.
This is, this is gonna speak to like my biology education or my education. Yeah. Education in biology. I thought that when a chicken laid an egg, it would turn into a chicken if a chicken, if like a hen sat on it. But if it didn't, if the hen didn't sit on the chicken egg, it, it wouldn't turn into a chicken.
And that's why people would pick chicken eggs out of like the coop, because if you took it outta the coop, well the, the mum couldn't sit on it. And so I legitimately thought that they like the chi, [01:08:00] like that the yoke side became a chicken. If there was enough heat involved to, to kind of cover that, the egg.
And that, I honest to God, believed that that's how chickens were, became a boat. I, I, I shouldn't have said this. Now, I should be like, redact that, change that
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: actually, now you've got me wondering 'cause I would probably have guessed the same thing.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Well,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: So
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I didn't understand. Like I
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: how
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: apparently like the, well, it needs to be fertilized by by a, a male, a male chicken a rooster. There we go. Oh my gosh. Language is not my thing. Yeah, I, I think that it has to be fertilized. So when you have a chicken that hatches, it's because it was fertilized.
But again, I didn't even, I just sort, I don't know what I thought. I, I just, I just never questioned it. Like, it just was never on my radar to think, huh? How does a chicken hatch? Like, I, I wasn't raised on a farm. Like, I didn't,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: I'm
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: eat eggs. Sure. But I, you know what I mean?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: A chicken either. I'm with you.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: and I don't think that we, we should feel ashamed [01:09:00] actually, based on, based on you.
You agree with me?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Yeah. You, you were like bringing shame to that and I was trying to like, come alongside you and say like, I don't know the difference either. Like, I've never raised a chicken I'm sure our listeners are gonna be like, that's obvious, you know? But you've probably
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: if you did
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I hope that anyone who's listening to this.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Yeah,
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah, I think any, I hope anyone who's listening to this just reaches out to affirm us that they too thought that it was the difference between a hen sitting on the egg or not. It's also like,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: an expert with
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: pardon me?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: let us know how to navigate
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah. This, this was like, and actually I did learn this at Liberty.
One of the few things I learned was that North and Up are not the same thing. I always thought that when I said I'm going north, I was going like, sort of synonymous terms, but they're not, so that's maybe a less embarrassing confession. But I think they're in some ways connected.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Oh, I love it. Very nice. All right, well you can take [01:10:00] this next question, obviously a, a variety of angles, so we'll see where you wanna go with it. do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in America today from your vantage point?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I think that the majority of of conservative religious tradition or conservative Christian traditions, again, Pentecostals, you know, evangelicals, white, Christian, fundamentalist and to, to loop all that together, I would just say, I guess maybe the term I would use is white Christian nationalism or my Christian nationalists.
I would say that's the problem is, is this conflation of country and whiteness and Christianity that is really at its core and my understanding as a grab for and maintenance of power. That I think that, you know, and maybe all religion really is sort of like in a fian lens, like, you know, or a fian way, like, an effort to exercise power in some way, shape [01:11:00] or form.
But I think that from my understanding of a lot of the conservative Christians, again, the white Christian nationalist, this is, this is the goal. No longer are Jesus' teachings the goal, and maybe they never were for a lot of these, these, these denominations or, but maybe they were I don't know. I wasn't around, you know, more than what, 34 years ago.
But I think that white Christian nationalism is, is the the biggest issue. And I think what's motivating that is the, the desire, like the thirst for power.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Yep. That's good. is something that's blowing your mind right now?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Hmm.
Oh, goodness. I'm trying to think. I said it once, but this is, so, it's, it's not really new, but there are these, these grapes that I've been eating recently that not, not turned into wine. They're quite good, but that's like a terrible answer. Sorry, I'm so sorry to be, [01:12:00] to disappoint. What else is new?
No, I'm, I'm trying to think like what these grapes you wouldn't believe.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: I gotta tell you
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: what, what's blowing,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: guys.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: what's blowing my mind?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Come on,
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: You know what, what I will,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: What idea, crazy book you've read.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: oh, you know what I'm working on a few projects that I'll, I'll tell you about later. And this is not. I, I can't, I can't talk about it publicly, but there are some things that are actually like crazy that I think a lot of pe Anyway, that's, that's for later. But what I will say the effects of creatine, Jeremy, I, I, I, I sort of, I, I, I'm, I'm a simple minded man.
I, I was always sort of like a very average, I had a very average body. I, I always describe it as a potato body. And when I, and other than when I was at Liberty, and a few times after that, there was one time actually this, to give you a, an idea or a story. One time I, I went on spring break, it was senior year, and I came back from spring break and I went to Disney in Florida, [01:13:00] which was like my first mistake.
But, you know, I, I, I come back to, to Lynchburg and I said to my friend Ben, or he said like, oh, what'd you do for spring break? I said, oh, I, you know, I did this this, this and this. I said, what about you? He said, well, David, who was a friend of a mutual friend of ours at the time he said, David and I looked at pictures of you on Facebook and saw fat.
You got.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Wow.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: They call that, they call that Christian Love. And so there's no, there's no love like Christian Love, right? No. So I, I, I, I just never exercised. And then once I finished the PhD, my, my thing was I was gonna get, one of my goals when I finished the PhD was that I was gonna start working out.
So I did, and there was like, you know, marginal effects, and then I started with creatine and I feel like a new girl. You know, like my, I, I just, talk about a, a transform transformation. I feel, I feel just, just fabulous. Creatine.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: What I, okay, now I'm intrigued. What, what, what kind of creatine are you taking? What, what are these gummies, this powder. What are you doing? You gotta let us know. How's
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: It is powder there, there's, there are gummies that are like green apple flavored, and I'm not a fan. So that, that's sort of a dead end. But it's [01:14:00] this.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: surprised.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: A lot of things are up my alley, Jeremy jeez Louise. Or make it just softball pitches here. What'd you call me? No. So, I think that the creatine, you know, I, I just down the hatchet, it's just disgusting and everyone who sees, it's like, why do you do that?
Like, yeah, like that. And then I just chug some water in it, like, dries my throat out like a desert. But nonetheless, it's, it's how I do it. But honestly, like I, I've never, I've never felt like what's the word? What's, I never felt like I had like a body. And now I'm like, do I, does she have a body?
Yada ydi? I think she might, or she's at least on her way. And so I'm quite excited about it. It's, it is blowing my mind. And again, I'm a simple minded boy. Like, very simple things excite me. And so yeah, that's what, that's what I would say for, for that answer.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: I am excited for you. That's great.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Thank you.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: That's,
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: you.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: What is a
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: that you're trying to solve?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Oh, goodness gracious.
A [01:15:00] problem I'm trying to solve, you know, I guess at every, every time you're, you're doing any research, you're trying to solve some sort of problem, even if it's just an intellectual problem. I, I guess this is a, I'll make this into a shameless plug. How about that? So the, the project I'm currently working on is an edited collection of stories similar to the stories or in the same, format as the shame, sex attraction.
But this one's about queer experiences at Christian colleges, universities, and seminaries. And so up until this point, there has, hasn't really been too, there has, there have not been many representations of, of queer experiences at Christian colleges and universities and seminaries. There have been, of course, and there are a number that I suppose I could name, but there's never been an edited collection about it.
So, that centers on this topic. And so that one I'm trying to solve the problem of a lack of representation, Jeremy.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Hmm. That might carry over. My next question is, what's something you're excited about right now and you seem pretty excited about that, or do you want to be excited about something different?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Oh boy. What am I excited about? Oh goodness. What am I excited
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: be hard to top your
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: [01:16:00] about?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: excitement right now, to be honest.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: There's very little in this world that could Yeah. Match that. What am I excited about? Oh boy. I'm excited for beach season. I'm excited for that, again.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Yep.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Yeah. And the question is like, when he goes to the clothing optional beach, is he wearing a speedo or is he wearing trunks? That's of course the, the, the logical question.
I'll leave it to the imagination. Jeremy,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Hmm. But
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I just, I just, I just messed up. Your name there is Rose. Yeah. I called you Jeremy. Apparently the wine is here. We are queer. We are beer. We are, no, it's wine, Jeremy. Yeah, so the beach, beach season I'm very excited and I'm excited for you to join. I can't, I can't wait.
It's gonna be a good time.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: You gotta gotta find a way to get me up there. I got to find some, some church that needs a speaker or something.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Done. Done.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: let's see. Is there anything you wanna add? I hesitate to ask this. Is there anything you want to [01:17:00] add that I may not have asked you about? That we cannot close the books on this conversation without addressing
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Ooh.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: that.
Did we not get to that? Let's talk about that.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: You know what? That's that question. Or like, variations thereof. I, I typically, that's when I plug the book, but I didn't have anything for the last two questions ago. And so here we are now. Oh boy. What did we not talk about? Oh gosh. You know, I, I, I feel like this would be the moment to insert a joke about pop culture, but I'm so poorly informed.
I, I really live, I live in like the most sheltered bubble of my research. Like, I read newspapers from like the 1990s all the time. Like, I'm not reading current stuff, you know what I mean? Like, that's my reading. And today I was reading anyway, it doesn't even matter. So, hmm. What was the question?
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Oh,
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Geez, Louise.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: is there anything else you'd like to add that I
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: have asked you about? [01:18:00] You
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Well, Jeremy? Yes, I am going. Well, I was gonna say, I am going to the gym after this, so if that's what you were wondering, then the answer is yes.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Had your creatine or is that after this?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: no, I forgot. You know, apparently I'm so excited about creatine that I forgot to take it today, so that'll have to be afterwards. Yeah,
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Excellent.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Just a pure mess.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Hey, this has been a delight. If someone is listening to this and they're like, I like this guy. I want to connect with more of their work. How can people find you online?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: So you can find me on Instagram at Luke Slamdunk Wilson. You can find me on threads, at least something slim dunk Wilson. Pardon? Oh boy. I, I'm not a lightweight, but my word, this is absurd. So, same with. I never thought it. I'm getting sweaty. [01:19:00] Ah. So you can't tell from my blurry camera. Geez, Louise.
Look at the quality of this thing. My word. What is this? 1999. So, what, what else, what else am I on? Blue sky at Luke Slim Duck Wilson. I'm on institute. We've already covered that. I'm on Jeremy. Cut. Cut the camera. Cut the microphone. Oh my God. And then X or Twitter, whatever it's called these days.
Wilson fw. And then, you know, Lucas Wilson on LinkedIn, Luke Wilson on Facebook, and then also on academia.edu. Should you be so inclined to read my academic work that all of 12 people have read? Yeah.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: What's the slam dunk thing? What's that from?
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Wow. No. So Luke Slam Duck Wilson came about from high school this high school conversation. This, this one gal, she was just talking about who knows what, and she said like, your name's, like she was talking to someone else. And I just clocked it and I was like, that's, that's for later. She said, like, your name's like, I don't know, like Michaela, slam dunk, Josi.
And I was like, that's hilarious. And like me being like [01:20:00] possibly the worst at like sports in general, but particularly basketball. I'm only good at volleyball and I apparently that's a gay sport according to a number of people's, sort of like understandings of the sport, which I didn't know until years ago or until years, until recently, should I say Sorry.
Which I just find hilarious because I'm like, again, like the proof's in the pudding. But I, yeah, I'm not very good at sports, in particularly not basketball. So I thought it was kind of, kind of silly kind of funny. And I thought, let's, let's name that and claim that.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Well, I just gotta say, this has been a delightful conversation. I think we're friends now, so
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: I think so too.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: don't know if you are okay with that, but this to talk about something as heavy as we have talked about and the amount of laughter involved. a pleasant surprise. You know, I thought this one could be a little heavy and we have navigated it and you have brought so much grace and, and charm and humor and I appreciate that.
So thank you for not only having the courage to share your story and share, so many other stories of people that are rallying [01:21:00] behind you, but thanks for taking the time today to, to share it with us. We really appreciate it.
luke_1_05-15-2025_160348: Jeremy right back at you. This has been a treat, honestly.
jeremy_1_05-15-2025_130348: Awesome. Alright, everybody go check out. I can't. I was like, if I don't say this right. Shame, sex attraction. That is a tricky one to say. Shame sex attraction. It will be worth your time and you can support a great guy in the process. We'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray.
