The Good News About Evil
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jeremy_2_07-28-2025_132811: [00:00:00] Hello friends, and welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray.
Today we're going to acknowledge there's a lot going on in the world. There's a lot of heavy stuff going on, and I felt like I wanted to do an episode to address it, to acknowledge some of it, a lot in the news is happening. I'm just gonna pick two of them, just two major news stories that hopefully you are watching, you're aware of that lots of people are talking about trying to make sense about.
First one would be the Epstein files and the details of sexual trafficking of children that is coming to light, and how pervasive this is how many people probably are involved in this. So that's beginning to emerge. People's reaction to that, the obvious cover. Of that. Another one that's a gigantic story that is so heavy is that Israel is literally starving the Palestinian people to [00:01:00] death.
And so not only is this their ongoing way that they're waging war, but now they're literally starving out. Women and children, and if you're paying attention, you're seeing footage of this and photos of this and it is heartbreaking stuff and it's very heavy to watch these kinds of realities both at home and across the world, take place.
You wonder what are the spiritual ramifications of this? Like this is where we begin to think, where does my faith play into this, how? How does my belief in Jesus affect the way I process and respond? Stories like this? Maybe at a minimum you're wondering, how do I function with this kind of heaviness going on?
Where do we find hope in something like this? I don't think avoiding these stories and the realities and the discomfort that they produce is the right option. I think we need to lean [00:02:00] into it, and obviously there is a lot that happens when you lean into it and people disagree and have reactions to that.
I've been thinking of something, you've probably seen this before, but I've been thinking about this a lot lately. It's a quote from Omar l Acade. He wrote this. One day when it's safe, when there's no personal downside to calling a thing what it is, when it's too late to hold anyone accountable, everyone will have always been against this, and that is a profound way of understanding what's happening and applies to both of the examples I just gave, but.
I wanna unpack this in a bigger sense. I wanna actually offer you a little hope today in the midst of some very heavy things happening around the world. So this is episode 52. The good news about evil.
[00:03:00] I have never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happen in this conversation right now, thousand years from now, people are gonna be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would've no idea.
Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to. You drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? You gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment, resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I mean, the camp to God is at Universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You tell me to drink and I just show up.
I'll also say as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. [00:04:00] You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the hospitality that this particular podcast. Provides folks like myself and I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that's very unique. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine early. The wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's [00:05:00] wine. Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage. You really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_2_07-28-2025_132811: I'm gonna begin like we normally do, talking about what I'm drinking in the episode today. It is very hot in Arizona. We are full on into the summer, and so I'm going with a white wine today to lighten things up, especially because we're gonna talk about a heavy topic. I'm drinking a 2022 Napa Valley Muscat Cane.
This is from Saint Super a, I think is how you pronounce it. Beautiful white color to this and in the appearance it's pale straw, gold. It's bright, it's translucent. [00:06:00] It's almost like sunlight in a glass, which again, nice to have. When you're dealing with heavy things on the nose. This thing is intensely aromatic.
Kind of smells like a floral orchard fell in love with a fruit basket, and you're getting both of those really nice on the palette. I'm getting tropical fruits like mango, pineapple, pear, and tangerine. This is my first time having this particular grape and it's got some sweetness to it, so it's.
A little bit like a Riesling. But it's got great acidity as well, which is balanced, by that sweetness. So just a beautiful mix of both of those. And then on the finish, it's crisp, aromatic, it's refreshing, like I said kind of like lemonade with perfume and some class to it, like a, like an adult lemonade, if you will.
And Muscat canelli a fun little fact about this. Great. This is one of the oldest known grape varieties in the world. Goes back to like [00:07:00] Old Testament ancient times and believed to be a grape enjoyed by the Greeks and the Romans. So if you're a history nerd or you just like, things that have stood the test of time, this is a grape that will do it.
So hopefully you're able to enjoy something with me in this episode as well. And if you are, cheers to you and cheers to this journey.
Whew. That was so good. Hopefully you have something refreshing you today as well. So, as I've been processing these different weighty news things happening, and I, again, I just see about 'em all the time and feels very helpless, feels like I don't know what I can do about some of these realities happening.
It's reminded me of something that it's a theme that I have found throughout the scriptures that I don't think we talk enough about. And the idea is that evil carries [00:08:00] within itself its own demise. Okay? So this is something throughout the scriptures that there is a gigantic flaw in the nature of evil, and it's a significant flaw.
And I think when we acknowledge this flaw, when we talk about it, when we bring this flaw. To the forefront. It gives you a different perspective in which to not only process these things that are happening, but also to figure out then what do we do about it? What's our response to it? Now I wanna set up this flaw for you of evil.
In the book of Psalms, we get all sorts of references to this. And so I wanna read a handful of these. This is the book in the book of Psalms. We have so many different examples of the idea that Evil carries its own demise in it. So I wanna invite you just to sit back. Relax, put your feet up, get that glass of wine in your hand, and just process the ideas in these verses.
And let's [00:09:00] allow this to paint a picture for us that scripture paints repeatedly about how evil works. And so I'm gonna read beginning in Psalm seven, verse 14. The wicked conceive evil. They are pregnant with trouble and give birth to lies. They dig a deep pit to trap others then fall into it themselves.
The trouble they make for others backfires on them. The violence they plan falls on their own heads. So again, we have this theme being set up that we're gonna see more and more of that evil turns on itself. It works against itself. Eventually, Psalm nine 15, the nations have fallen into the pit. They dug for others.
Their own feet have been caught in the trap. They set. The Lord is known for his [00:10:00] justice. The wicked are trapped by their own. Deeds 10 verse two. The wicked arrogantly hunt down the poor. Let them be caught in the evil they plan for others. 37 14, the wicked draw their swords and string their bows to kill the poor and the oppressed to slaughter those who do right, but their swords will stab their own hearts.
And their bows will be broken. 54 5. May the evil plans of my enemies be turned against them. 57. Six. My enemies have set a trap for me. I am weary from distress. They have dug a deep pit in my path, but they themselves have fallen into it. 94 23. [00:11:00] God will turn the sins of evil people back on them. One 40 verse nine.
Let my enemies be destroyed by the very evil they have planned for me. And Psalm 1 41 10 Let the wicked fall into their own nets. But let me escape. So you see this all throughout the psalms, this idea of evil falling in, collapsing in on itself. It's a prevalent theme, but we find it elsewhere in the Old Testament as well.
Proverbs 5 22 and evil Man is held captive by his own sins. They are ropes that catch and hold him. He will die for lack of self-control. He will be lost because of his great foolishness. Now that imagery is so great there that literally the evil of a person [00:12:00] becomes ropes that catch and hold them that the evil they intend for others.
Proverbs 11, five. The Godly are directed by honesty. The wicked fall beneath their load of sin. The godliness of people of good people rescues them. The ambition of treacherous people traps them. So again, the same idea played out. Proverbs 26 27. If you set a trap for others, you will get caught in it yourself.
If you roll a boulder down on others, it will crush you instead. And again, this is an idea we see all throughout. Couple other examples in other books. And the Book of Esther chapter seven ends with this kind of crazy turn of events. And Esther seven verse 10 says, so they impaled Haman on the poll he had set up for Mordecai.
Now, this is [00:13:00] probably the most literal example Throughout the scriptures of falling into your own trap, Haman plots this evil and ends up suffering from the plot himself. It all turns on him, or I think of Daniel chapter six, verse 24. Then the king gave orders to arrest the men who had maliciously accused Daniel.
He had them thrown into the lions den. So the trap, the official designed for Daniel ends up being their own demise. So again, we see all throughout scriptures, we see this theme of evil working against itself. And again, I think it's something we don't talk enough about. Now, Jesus adds an interesting twist to this.
When he takes this idea, there's a moment when his disciples want to take extreme force. To battle evil, which many Christians today would say, we have every right to do fight, fire with fire. [00:14:00] If evil is using this force, use that same force back. We have to battle evil at all costs. And there's a moment when the disciples are going, yeah, Jesus, we're gonna do this as well, but Jesus rebukes them for it.
It. And we see Jesus seeming to offer a different view of this whole thing. In Matthew 22, verse 48, it says, and even as Jesus said this, Judas, one of the 12 disciples arrived with a crowd of men armed with swords and clubs. They had been sent by the leading priests and the elders of the people and the traitor.
Judas had given them a prearranged signal. You will know which one to arrest when I greet him with a kiss. So Judas came straight to Jesus. Greetings rabbi. He exclaimed and he gave him the kiss. Jesus said, my friend, go ahead and do what you have come for. Then the others grabbed Jesus and [00:15:00] arrested. Verse 51, but one of the men with Jesus pulled out his sword and struck the high priest, slave slashing off his ear.
Yes, this is how you battle evil. Verse 52, put away your sword. Jesus told him, those who use the sword will die by the sword. Now, here Jesus is showing us that we do not. Fight evil with evil. That is not the way we respond when we see evil taking over, when we see evil running amuck in the world. But this is where our collective imagination goes.
Think of how many movies, how many shows depict a good guy with a gun. Battling the bad guys with a gun, and we think, yes, we just need a stronger good guy, right? This is the myth of redemptive violence, whether it's Die Hard or John Wick or [00:16:00] basically any superhero movie ever made, the message is the same.
We stop evil by hitting it harder, faster, and with better aim. And so as long as our good guy is better, is stronger, has the better aim, then the evil will be. Thwarted, and that's how we often think about battling and stopping evil. And yet Jesus is saying, no, we live differently. We don't do it that way.
Now you might be wondering why did you talk about in the title that there's good news about evil? Isn't that absolutely not true? Isn't it evil awful and absolutely evil is awful. But the good news about evil is that we don't have to fight fire with fire in order for evil to lose. That's the good news I bring for you today.
All of these verses that we've been exploring in this episode show us that direct opposition isn't the only [00:17:00] way to fight evil. Now, we're so used to thinking in these binary categories. We think it's fight or flight, dominate or be dominated, but Jesus offers us a third way the way of creative nonviolent resistance.
Right. This third way of inviting the Holy Spirit in to, to solve this uniquely, to battle this uniquely, not just tit for tat, not just fire with fire, but a third way, a third imagining of what we can do. This is the way of turning the other cheek in Matthew 5 39, or praying for our enemies in Matthew 5 44, or absorbing violence without mirroring it, which is what we see in Jesus on the cross.
You see the cross? Wasn't Jesus losing it? Wasn't Jesus resigning himself to evil to say, all right, fine. There's no point in trying. Let's let evil win. [00:18:00] Let's just give up. The cross was Jesus refusing to become what he came to save us from. Right? The cross was Jesus saying, I'm not going to become more of that in order to stop that and all of these methods, this third way works precisely because time itself is working against.
Evil. Evil has a fatal flaw built in. It is a giant Achilles heel that we should be very mindful of as we think about our response to it.
Now, to get specific and to contextualize this a little bit. I think we're seeing this concept play out right now in the MAGA movement, right? The Make America Great again. Now, depending on when you listen to this episode, the details may [00:19:00] be very different, but as I record this, it has recently come out that Republicans knew that Trump was in the Epstein files.
Okay? So this has come out, and this has been obvious. They knew that he was a confirmed pedophile involved in the trafficking of children. And yet for the most part, they are choosing to cover it and to bury it. Now, I would suggest friends, this is not a difference of politics. This is evil. And I think it's important no matter who you voted for that we learn to call out either side when we see something like this is flat out evil.
In fact, many people are saying, to progressives, oh, well, bill Clinton is also on the list. Do you want the list buried now? And the response that I've seen is no show everybody on the list. Like there's no allegiance to anybody who's on this list to protect them. What we're discovering is evil.
The trafficking of children is [00:20:00] horrendous. Like we should want that to come to light and there should be no excuse for it regardless of whether or not they're in your camp or not. And lately we've been watching the MAGA movement. Turn against themselves. And as I have watched these different leaders fall apart and begin to turn, I'm no longer, in support of him.
It struck me as, oh, this is the nature of evil. It is playing out against itself. It is eroding from the inside. Because whenever you have something that is choosing evil, it will naturally have this flaw built in. It's the nature of evil. Playing out, which means this is more good news for you.
Evil is never as strong as it appears. Now, it does not mean that evil isn't strong and cannot have disastrous effects. It absolutely can. But what we tend to want to do is throw up our hands to [00:21:00] give up, to say there's no point in responding. There's no point in doing anything because what would we possibly be able to do?
And you can often feel so overwhelmed that you tap out and you just give up and you go, well, there's no point. Because evil looks that strong. But evil is never as strong as it appears. Now let me give you some nuances to this walter Brueggeman in one of my favorite books, the Prophetic Imagination, wrote it like this.
Every totalitarian regime is frightened of the artist. It is the vocation of the prophet to keep alive the ministry of imagination, to keep on conjuring and proposing futures alternative to the single one the king wants to urge as the only thinkable one. I love that line that every totalitarian regime is frightened of the artist.
And you might [00:22:00] go, why? What on earth would cause them to be threatened by the artist, or Sam? Rusty said it like this. A tyrant's greatest fear is a man who can laugh at him. A joke is more dangerous than a thousand swords. Now again, you might be thinking, well, that is wishful thinking. No regime is going to care about artists.
Right? There is no imagination. There is no evils too strong for that. Except if you've been paying attention recently, there is a South Park episode that recently came out, brutally mocking Trump. And I thought about Bruge men's quote of the totalitarian regime being frightened of the artists and the literally thought, these are modern day artists, right?
And you may not like the art at all. You may not agree with the art, but these are modern day artists. Preparing their art. Creating their art, [00:23:00] and they came out with this episode just brutally making fun of Trump. And ironically, the episode is titled The Sermon on the Mount. I thought a South Park fan admittedly, but I found that one interesting.
Now if you think totalitarian regimes are not frightened by the artist let me read to you a quote from the White House spokesperson named Taylor Rogers. In response to this South Park episode, they said this President Trump has delivered on more promises in just six months than any other president in our country's history.
And no fourth rate show can derail President Trump's hot streak. So, wow. I mean, that's a lot of delusion in one quote. Now that comment came at the same time, if you've been following the news that Trey Parker and Matt Stone, the creators of South [00:24:00] Park, reached a 1.5 billion with a B deal with Paramount for the global streaming rights to South Park.
So as President Trump is calling South Park a fourth rate show, and this art is garbage and no one cares Paramount just bought them for $1.5 billion for this deal. And so you begin to realize maybe these regimes are afraid of the artists. Maybe they're not as strong as they appear.
Now, let me offer a couple takeaways. When we look at evil in this way, when we understand that evil has this inherent flaw in it and isn't as airtight as it might seem, what should we do? Well, I would say at a minimum, number one, we should always work against evil. I think God is always working against evil within who God is, [00:25:00] right?
God doesn't do this coercively or doesn't abuse power. God is love. And so God uses love to always work against evil, and I think we can work against evil as well. Every chance you get work against evil. In fact, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the German theologian called this the spoke in the wheel, if you ever heard that phrase.
He said, we are not simply to bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice. We are to drive a spoke into the wheel itself. And this is where organizing together, rallying together, using our voices together, all of this matters. We should constantly be working against evil. But here's what I wanna also suggest.
We should also invest our time into building the good. Because if evil is naturally on a ticking time clock, right, evil's naturally going to work against itself, then we should also [00:26:00] spend a lot of our time building that, which is good. It's not enough just to tear things down just to battle something. We have this temptation, right?
Like those of us in the deconstruction community who have lived this. We want to become professional critics. I'm gonna tell you what is wrong with X, Y, and Z, and we can spend a lot of our energy exposing what is wrong, but critique is only holy when it gives birth to something more beautiful. And in this case, this is where I believe Christians are uniquely equipped.
We can critique evil work against evil, but more importantly, we can help give birth to something more beautiful. So Jesus didn't just flip tables. He also set tables and invited new people to eat around tables. And so there was this both and happening where he worked against what was happening and built something new.
[00:27:00] And I would encourage you and I let us work to build something new today as well. Only that which is good and beautiful will last. Evil will not last. There is a timeline that has already begun. Evil will not last. Evil is loud. It is flashy, but it is temporary. Conversely, as Paul writes in one Corinthians 13, 13, 3 things will last forever, faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love.
We have a chance to bring more and more beauty and love into the world every day. And this has a disproportionate way of crowding out the effects of evil. So not only do we work against evil, do we speak out against evil, but we work to bring that, which is beautiful. We work to [00:28:00] bring that which is the expression of love.
And as we do that, we also work against. Evil now because of the role that I'm in these days and the environments that I'm often in, I regularly talk to people who are overwhelmed with despair. They are, deconstructing things and they're realizing all the issues and they don't really know what to build it up with yet.
And they just feel the weight of all of this. And I certainly understand that weight and what I usually will say whenever I'm asked that, like, what do we do? How do we have hope? I'll just encourage them, bring a little beauty into every day, work toward a little bit of beauty each and every day. Figure out maybe just, God, what are you doing today?
How are you bringing beauty in this world? How can I partner with you today? And if you leave each and every day with a little bit more beauty than when you found it. We would be inherently changing the world. [00:29:00] We would be inherently working against the effects of evil by bringing more and more beauty into our, our environments.
Now, you don't need a title to do this. You don't need a pulpit to do this. Every act of kindness, every refusal to dehumanize another person, every bold stand for love, all of it counts. All of it is creating that which will last against that, which is inherently falling apart. And so I want to close with a quote from some Russian literature, the Brothers Ker Matov, from Sevki.
There's a character named Father Sima. I don't know how you pronounce that has this great line that I thought this is a poetic way to end this episode, and so I'll leave you with these thoughts at some thoughts. One stands, perplexed. [00:30:00] Especially at the sight of men's sin and wonders whether one should use force or humble love.
Always decide to use humble love. If you resolve on that once for all, you may subdue the whole world. I'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray.
