Downsizing Evangelicalism (with Michelle Van Loon) | Ep. 55
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[00:00:00] Hi, this is Heather from the Rebuilding Faith Online Community. I joined the community because I was drawn to a space where I could continue to grow in my faith, but in a different way. I felt like I no longer belonged in my church home because I didn't adhere to the typical beliefs I had been raised with.
I no longer could fit in the pew at my church while knowing my vay son was not accepted by the Christians with whom I worshiped. The best part about my experience in the community has been feeling that I'm not alone in my faith rebuilding journey. I'm learning so much through amazing podcasts, belonged book studies and lesson.
I love the community and the content and comments shared. I'm thankful.
Today we are talking about downsizing when it comes to evangelicalism,
and we're diving into a book with that title, the author is Michelle Van Loon. She has written a number of books. Her writing is shaped by her deeply [00:01:00] rooted faith in Christ by her secular Jewish heritage, by a spiritual hunger, and her storytellers sensibilities.
She's been a regular contributor to Christianity Today and InTouch Magazine. She's the author of eight books on faith and spiritual growth, including her most recent downsizing, letting go of Evangelicalism's Non-Essentials, and I offer her my own take on, uh, an a possible subtitle tweak on that. She's been married to bill for nearly 46 years and is the mother of three and the grandmother of three as well.
Just a delightful person to talk to. We had a great conversation. So enjoy episode 55, downsizing Evangelicalism.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happen in this conversation right now, thousand years from now, people are gonna be looking at this [00:02:00] podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would've no idea.
Steven A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? You gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment, resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I mean the camp that God is at, universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You tell me to drink and I just show up.
I'll also say as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and [00:03:00] I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about. The beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the, the hospitality that this particular podcast provides folks like myself and I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that's very unique. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine early. The wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. [00:04:00] I know why you have your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage. You really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Well, welcome to the podcast, Michelle. So great to have you.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Thanks for having me. And the invitation along with the, um, recommendation that I have a glass of wine at hand might be my very favorite podcast invite I have ever gotten, and I bet I'm not the only guest who said that. So.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: that. You know, it's an easy sell when, when we pitch the podcast and then I also say the requirements, you gotta drink with me. And people are like,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Yeah,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: then yeah, maybe I can fit that
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I'll,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: so, let's talk about then what we're
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: alright.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: got a, we've got a couple of beverages today. I'm going to a wine that I was given that I'm excited [00:05:00] to drink. This is a 2019. not, I don't know how to say this, so I always say, if you don't know how to say it, you just say it confidently. Ma la Plana.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Ooh.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: cabernet Souvignon from Spain, and so I am stoked about this. thing's a big boy, deep red, lots of of power to it. But because it's more of the old world, you get some of the minerality, the blackberry, the plum mint, some nice acidity to it. It is a warm day here. Uh, we had, Michelle and I were just talking before we hit record that we had a, a Haboob in Arizona yesterday. Maybe if you're following the news you've, you've heard about, but, uh, they're, they're kind of funky things that we get in Arizona. So the weather today is actually a little bit cooler, so like our high today is 91, so we are celebrating we're not being killed by the sun right now.
So I'm drinking that. what do you got?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I am drinking [00:06:00] courtesy of our friends at Trader Joe's, a Cocoa Bond Estates Chardonnay. Um. And I, even though I have a huge vocabulary, my wine vocabulary with all of those delicious, beautiful, descriptive adjectives, always feels impoverished. So I will just say that it is bright, it is crisp. I live in Florida, so instead of going with a cab or something red and and intense, I went with something that rhymed with Cabernet by picking a Chardonnay, so,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: you go. I like it. Well, cheers to you,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: and cheers to any of our listeners who are also enjoying a fine glass of wine with us. Throughout this episode, you know, we had a, a wine event last night and one of the guys at the wine bar was describing the [00:07:00] wine, and one of the tasting notes he used was, he said it's, it reminded him of, uh, a blossoming herb garden. And I
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Oh my goodness.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: blossoming herb garden. So not to be confused with an herb garden, this one has to be
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Yeah. Plaing.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: it is, it is funny. Some of the, I I think it's a chance for people to express their creativity is really
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Yes, it totally, it totally is. And even though I am a woman of many words, I've written eight books, I have lots to say when it comes to these particular adjectives that make sense when you're talking about wine. My husband and I enjoy wine. We've been to some tastings. We we're. We took a trip up the Rhine last fall
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: very cool.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: and drank lots and lots of wine and saw the beautiful terrorist, um, vineyards and like certainly an appreciator of wine, but intimidated to [00:08:00] start busting out words like Okie and legs and buttery.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Well, you, you did great. And I always tell people it boils down to this, there are wines you like and there are wines you don't like and you drink the ones you like and you don't drink, the ones you don't like. And it really isn't need doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I love that rule cosign
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: there we go. so.
we're going to dive into your book.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: and I had a chance to read this letting go of evangelicalism's non-essentials. Although I will
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: [00:09:00] Mm-hmm. Well.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: that before.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I haven't heard it, but it kind of works. Um, it definitely tracks. So yes,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: So.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: both are both fit, so
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: use that. That's, that's yours. Now
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Thanks. Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: So before we dive in, I wanna ask you about a number of quotes that I really liked outta the book. Before we get
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: there's a question. I like to set the tone for our audience to get a little bit of an idea of you, of your journey, where
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: what's brought you here. And so I always just ask people to narrow it down to 10 years. So if you looked at the last 10
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Ooh.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: of your life.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: your faith journey been like in that time? What has changed for you in your faith in the last 10 years?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Well, I love that question. Um, I would say the last 10 years have been. Integrating a lot of stuff that [00:10:00] came before beginning to make sense of it, creating meaning out of it, and being very quick on the trigger to call BS when I see it, to, um, recognize dysfunctional patterns and also to celebrate, um. The, the rebels, the whistleblowers, the constructors, the question askers, because honestly, those people who end up feeling like and often getting pushed to the margins are exactly where Jesus is working.
And, um, it's not in the. At the center in the boardrooms of big institutional churches and denominations and universities. It is always, and we're always surprised by that, but it's always, always, um, [00:11:00] on the margins. That's where the growth in activity and life is. So for me, I would say the last 10 years have been that journey, um, and continuing some of the things that.
Got it already started in my life. Um, before that, I'm 66, so I have lots of decades of experience from which to kind of process and draw.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Hmm. Well, you definitely are speaking to the right audience on this podcast.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: All right.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: people you mentioned. I'm like, yeah, these are, these are
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: These are, they are, they're, there's an awful lot of us out there.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Yep. Yep. And, uh, and hopefully we're gathered
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: wine to,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: better. Okay, so one of the quotes I loved, and this this sets us up to get into the overall theme of your book. You write this, the church is not who she should [00:12:00] be or must be.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: to be born again, and the only way to get there is via downsizing. why, why downsizing? Why is this the metaphor that that works for you to explain these ideas?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Well, I've known people actually, probably, probably since the, the turn of the millennium. So 25 years ago when there was a big bubble in, particularly in the evangelical world, um, around the emergent movement, it was kind of the first wave of people that were. Asking questions, challenging norms, deconstructing, and some people just the momentum carried them way outside of faith entirely.
Um, you know, kind of shook the dust off their feet to, to use, uh, metaphor from the gospels. Um, [00:13:00] but a lot of people actually were. Were not deconstructing faith as much as they were deconstructing terrible church experiences and bad theology. And, um, those people I worked at, uh, an evangelical seminary during the first few years of the two thousands.
And, um, while there was a lot going on. And people were talking about things and people were asking questions and they were trying things, trying to figure out what to keep and what to toss from their church youth group, evangelical, acquire the fire, whatever, whatever the thing was that kind of defined evangelicalism for them as young adults.
Um, people knew that it wasn't sustainable, um, and it didn't make sense so. [00:14:00] Those, those people who were trying to sort baby from bath water to use a really tired metaphor, um, sometimes it's the right metaphor, and in this case it, it actually was, um, what to keep and what to toss became. Something I started paying attention to, um, partly because I am a student and a lover of church history.
So the what's happening now is not an entirely new thing. Um, it's a, it's a now thing, however.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: So you, you bring up some realities that come with the downsizing that anybody who is probably listening to this podcast has experienced themselves is
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: interested in these kind of conversations. But you write it like this and it, this, this illustrates it very well. You say, it is humbling to recognize that maybe you've invested a lot of [00:15:00] time and money into something with little lasting value.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: forces, that kind of reckoning. the truth. And when I
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: I thought, I thought back to when I stepped away from being a lead pastor. I remember thinking every little nuanced decision I made about everything in the, in the church
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: utmost importance. You know? And it was like I gave a every waking moment and energy I had because I, I really did believe
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: single bit of it mattered. Then I stepped away. And watch them just change a bunch of stuff and revert a bunch of stuff. And I, I remember having this feeling of like. Why. did I spend all of
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Great.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: energy, all of that
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: all of that time and, and then you realize like, this didn't have the impact that I believed it did. I thought I did. And I have heard that realization from person after person, after person who's been in it to any degree and then [00:16:00] walks away and goes, that is not What I
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: What was that?
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: are illustrating it. Speak to this reality as, as you've seen it in your journey.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Well, um, a, a story to kind of go along with the story that you shared. I was on staff at a church and I was communications director, communications coordinator, whatever. And, um, one of my jobs was to help orient people. To all the different ministries of the church. Well, I thought this was before the. Uh, internet fully kind of took over those tasks for churches, so I thought, let's get some flyers out there.
So visitors, there were lots of visitors, there was a lot going on in the church at the time. Could just grab something. They didn't have to try to ask a person for [00:17:00] information. It sounded so simple. The, the fight over. Not only the content, but particularly how those flyers were going to be displayed in the lobby of the church took almost two years of my life.
It ended up, it was it, it wasn't a power struggle. It, I mean, I got pulled into the power struggle, but it was the power struggle between two women. Who watched a lot of HGTV, um, and were deeply committed to going to Hobby Lobby and the Craft store to make an explosion of it. It was just like a mix of hobby, lobbying, cracker Barrel, just like you would imagine, um, in those days.
And, um. [00:18:00] That I, I, it didn't make sense to me. I finally, you know, got the rack with the flyers put up on the wall within a month after I left, it was down and I was like, first of all, the goodwill, the relationships that got shredded in this ongoing thing. All because I thought we need to help people understand how this church works.
I didn't understand that what I was fighting was actually the truth of how the church worked. So, um, that same anybody who's been in a church for a while, or particularly if you've been on staff, you understand how. Everything just gets over [00:19:00] spiritualized and amplified, and a lot of it is power struggle and, um, from unhealthy people.
And, um, for me that the, the complete pointlessness of that, I'm like, this is two years of my life. It, I, I didn't do this 40 hours a week for two years, but it was a theme. That just never went away. And I thought there's so many other things that I could have been doing with my time. Anything really flossing, you know, drinking wine was anything that would've made more sense than what ended up getting burned up in that.
For what? So I get it.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Yeah, and the more you've, the more you've put into it.
the harder that is. And so, my, my whole career, all my certifications, all my schooling, you know, is all in this thing that then it's like, I don't want to do this anymore.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: [00:20:00] Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: And that, that, that is, that, that downsizing moment is a, is a tricky pill to swallow. And, yeah, I just talked to someone at a, this event last night and, you know, he, he was talking about his own journey and I said, what was the turning point for you? And he just said, I, I've known this for a while. I just
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: a point where I was willing
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: It's like
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: to do the work. And he's like, I just
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: bright.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: to admit what I knew I needed to
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: I, I just like, that's, that's it. And you certainly capture the emotions of that. also speak to something I, it's also in my, my journey. I have worked on staff at two Megachurches. I was responsible for, for leading one of them during my time there. And you write this line, certainly people came to faith and grew spiritually in megachurches, but
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: it was despite the church model at the foundation, not because of it. '
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: cause of,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: some fighting words for the mega church. What do you, what do you think Michelle?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: [00:21:00] well, I grew up, I'm from the Chicago area, northwest suburbs of Chicago, and I remember visiting Willow Creek, which. Is one of the Mac daddies of the Evangelical Magic mega church world when it's still met in Willow Creek movie theater. I worked in the building across the parking lot from that theater, and so I've had kind of a front row seat, not as a participant.
We attended, my husband and I attended for a short while, right before. Everything kind of unfolded publicly about the, the leader. I won't even call him pastor, but the leader Bill Hybels, um, in 2018 or so. But, um, I remember watching all that and I saw people and I knew people, I [00:22:00] had friends, you know, peers, um, young people whose lives were being changed, but.
It wasn't the church got them in the doors. The church made it okay to be interested in Jesus. Made things relevant, made things understandable. There wasn't a pipe organ in sight. Thanks be to God. Um, but um, the gospel is the gospel and it has a life of its own. And these. Laboratories and tricks and tips and techniques and all of the stuff that we kind of fold in, um, actually just most of it doesn't have much lasting value.
Relationships do. The relationships that you built, there's probably people in your life [00:23:00] that are, you know. Super meaningful experiences that you had times of prayer, hanging out, laughing, crying, moving, whatever the thing was that built an organic relationship that didn't have much to do with the institution.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Yeah, that's well said. You tell a story in the book of a church experience that you had with a lead elder named Dave. And when I got to this part, I, I was like, oh yeah, we all know. We all know this guy. You say
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: abysmal behavior from the elder team confirmed my suspicions there was something rotten at the heart of the congregation. My ability to trust the leadership of a church would never be the same. There are a lot of
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: listening to this
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: experiences of their own that will be nodding their head right now and going, yep, yep. I, I, I've had that [00:24:00] with the prevalence of these stories. And again, I, I, I happen to be in a position where I hear these stories all the time from people.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Sure.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: think this is the norm in evangelicalism or is this the exception that we just see far too much of.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Um, that's, that's an interesting question. I might have answered it differently. Had I, not just before I jumped on this call with you, read, um, a litany of woes from a church in another part of Florida where they've kind of gathered ahead of steam from all of these women that have been spiritually and sexually abused and, um.
I just went through that. Somebody that, it's a friend of mine that sent it to me who's [00:25:00] kind of involved with this because she knows I've walked with survivors because of my own, um, experience of spiritual abuse. I've one in the book, but in actual real life I have about two and a half, um, before I finally got myself in counseling and disconnected from.
You know, started asking the questions. I've ended up in this situation more than one time, and so I need to do some painful, hard work to figure out what drew me here. So your question, is it evangelicalism or is it just, you know, with social media, people are finding each other. It's easier to kind of out people, bad leaders, whatever.
I'm surprised when a church doesn't have a story. If, if the church has been around for [00:26:00] more than 10 minutes or a couple of years or whatever, that there's not some story in the shadows. Um, spiritual abuse. Um. Pastoral, um, or leadership, um, sexual abuse, abuse of minors, all of that kind of stuff. It's, it's everywhere, but it's every, I mean, it's, it's in schools, it's in the halls of POW anywhere there is power, um, corporations.
You know, you can look at, um, the Me Too movement that's got its own story and narrative arc. Um, even what's happening in the halls of power in Washington DC with what our, who our leaders are right now. So with all of that being said, um, [00:27:00] it's very common and the one area that I touch on it in the book, but, um.
I can say more clearly the one area that a whole lot of the church, not just evangelicalism, but kind of it through all the different streams, um ha. Most streams of the Big C Church have not done a good job developing a theology of power. Develop, developing, um, practices that kind of continue to steer people towards humility and authenticity.
So the minute that there is an opportunity for someone to exert power, a broken person will make terrible choices. So.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: [00:28:00] Y the, the line, the second sentence in that, you know, my ability to trust the leadership of a church would never be the same. that's
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: line because I, that's how I feel, you know,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: you know, I, I would never be able to. Because of my experiences. I'll say it like this. I don't think I could ever fully trust a board to be altruistic and always have the best interest.
Like I just would have a very hard time with
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: of my journey. Now, some will push on that and say, well, you had one bad experience. you've allowed that to create a bitterness in you. And so I try to be sensitive. Okay, maybe,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: you know, that's pain talking and, and then I turn around and I watch it happen and happen and happen and over and over, and story and story in this community and
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: And then you go, well, okay, so at what, like how many times does it have to happen before we say this is a feature, not a bug.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: And is it bitterness or is it wisdom
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: [00:29:00] Hmm.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: because, um, somebody that is looking for people to manipulate and doesn't want someone who's gonna ask questions or challenge, um, will immediately pull out the sin paintbrush and just splash that all over. I, I think it, there's, there's a constant dance. There's a reason that Jesus says forgive 70 times seven.
Um, and I it in some of these cases, the, the case in the book of my own spiritual abuse, um, I might be on forgiveness lap number 536 for all I know. You know, like you just have to continue. To kind of navigate that, that's my part of the journey.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Hmm.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: But the other [00:30:00] part, the part that is more, um, guarded that the minute there's a power structure, um, I try to make sure I'm on the outside of it.
Um, because I, I don't need to be the insider and I, I know what it does to people. Um. It, the reason that people get pulled into those orbits and cover up for bad leaders and blame whistleblowers and all the rest is because of their own brokenness, their own spiritual immaturity. Um, a few years ago, before we moved, right before we moved here, we moved to Sarasota from Chicago in 2019, right before the pandemic, which, um.
You know, maybe not the best timing, but um, I went to [00:31:00] a gathering that was at Wheaton College, another evangelical bastion of whatever. Um, and it was a bunch of survivors. Um, I think Beth Moore was there 'cause she was becoming more public about her own experience of abuse. But the person who struck me the strongest was someone that was, uh, part of the inner circle for many years at Willow Creek.
And she talked very honestly about what drew her there and how she fought to maintain her position. And really what she was doing was telling the story of, um, immaturity that. Would never, ever flourish or grow past that point until she got out of that situation.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Yeah.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Um, you know, there, there's no reason to [00:32:00] change.
You know, she was being rewarded. She had a position, she got to take trips. She was in the spotlight. She was holding the microphone. She was preaching so.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Yeah, you, you have another section that I thought was so good and it's something I, I think we're, seeing more and more of now, and it, it's been something I've seen, you know, I've grown up in the church, I've seen this all my life, but. like, it's like this whole thing is on steroids right now. you talk about paranoia and you talk a little bit of your experience, but you say, we've been practicing paranoia in the name of end times readiness for decades. And so you tell a little bit of your story and then you say this. was even longer before I could walk into an empty house
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: there would be people at home and not have a 10,000 wat jolt of fear
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: had taken place and I'd been left behind.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: church baggage, you know, the theology that comes with that. what I have found [00:33:00] especially true today. Okay, so this is like, this has been around, it's not new, but it seems like this has grown. Paranoia seems to be a very common trait in evangelicalism today, and it's paranoia about all sorts of stuff.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: you think paranoia grows so well in the soil of evangelicalism?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: It, it, it sure does. Um, authoritarianism grows in that soil, um, for people. Evangelicalism as a whole has. We don't have a pope except we kind of do, you know, depending on what stream you're in, you might, if you're in a charismatic church, there are, you know, untouchable, charismatic leaders. If you're in a very fundamentalist church, there are those guys and they set the tone and they make the rules.
Um, the, a lot of [00:34:00] times. Instead of discipleship, we are doing, um, formation by peer pressure. And that peer pressure ends up kind of cultivating, uh, an atmosphere of fear. People focusing on rules, people focusing on. On all of that. And guess what? All the conspiracy theorying that has exploded in the last 10 years, most of us, um, have been well taught exactly how to embrace conspiracy theories through.
Trying to figure out when the rapture is gonna happen and trying to figure out who the antichrist is and trying to figure out who to boycott and what cartoon character might have. Be having a secret message that's gonna make all the [00:35:00] viewers gay or whatever the thing is. Um, and that all of that excitement and energy and having a common enemy.
Is, it forms communities. They're not healthy communities, but it, it has the effect of, uh, people understanding who the enemy is, who's inside, who's outside, where the lines are. So, and woe to you if you do not color in those lines.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Well, and I think the challenge for most people is if you, if you stay within the lines.
of your community and you go along with what is taught and what is reinforced you, you can very easily find yourself in an echo chamber where
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: everybody thinks the way you do because it's
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: to you every
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: And the conversations you have, and we all agree with this, we all
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Then you talk to someone [00:36:00] who goes, what?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Are you talking about? That doesn't make
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Are you nuts? Right.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: you know, these people are like, what? No, everybody believes this. And you know, and that's a lot of times the conversations I get, it's like, you, you do know that.
It's like one way of making sense of that. And throughout Christianity, there's been like a whole bunch of 'em. But what I found is
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Right.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: they don't know that. They're like,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: They don't. They don't know that. And when I tell people, one of the things that has saved my faith, because the book. Is a mix of, I, you know, I share my own story because I've been in a lot of places like Johnny Cash. I've been everywhere, man. But I also, there's more than 200 footnotes in the book.
There's a lot of history and background and I am amazed at the, and I don't know why, I shouldn't be surprised that people don't know even the history of their own. Movement or their own church or, [00:37:00] oh, dispensationalism. All that left behind rapture talk is the, the disciples would've been very surprised by that information.
That theological system was created
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: be surprised
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: not that long ago.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: today.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Oh, they, they would. They would. And one of the gifts that. I have carried all along because of the way that I started my journey with the Lord. What I, both my parents are Jewish. I grew up in a very secular Jewish household with some religious education sprinkled in there.
But if you've seen Seinfeld, you, it's kind. A little bit of what my house was like, especially the Del Boca Vista retirement community in Florida. That's, you know, that whole vibe was my childhood. And um, so when I came to [00:38:00] faith in Christ, my parents said, you can't go to church while you're living here.
Understood. I get it. I didn't blame them. I was never mad about it. I mean, I was mad about it 'cause I was a teenager, but I understood their reasoning. Um, and I think they just hoped that the fad would go away. But because of that, here I am, I'm still here, you know, 50 plus years later I'm still here. But, um, the, the.
Idea of just kind of reading the Bible and listening to Christian radio, not the music. The music was always abysmal. I could hardly stomach it, so I would turn on the metal. Um, in between sermons, I was, I was a weird kid. I'm still weird. But, um, I came to the church with that, with, [00:39:00] that's kind of what formed my understanding of what the church.
Could be and should be because I was just reading the Bible and I get that a lot of the, like the epistles were written to address problems. Churches had problems, churches still have problems. But I also understood there was something, um, powerful that couldn't be duplicated without. Faith in any other kind of community, and that has kind of held me, um, all, all along, even though it's been really pretty harrowing.
Also, I've met some honest to goodness believers, none of 'em are running the smoke machine. None of 'em are holding the microphone. They're laying down their lives for foster kids. They're, you know, [00:40:00] all, all of those people that are not famous and aren't writing books, and they're just, they love God and they live sacrificially.
And I know that the gospel's real because I can see it in them too. So I'm not without. Total hope, but in the institution, Wowza.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: That, that's, I love the way you just said that, you know? 'cause so often that is a conversation I get in and it's something I need. Encouragement. 'cause you know, there's days where you're like, throw this
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Right,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: You know, there's, I
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: right.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: for it. And you know, this whole thing looks rotten and you have to like, figure out where, where do you get hope from in those days?
You know, there's some days it's easy and you're like, Hey, I'm feeling pretty optimistic. There's some days I'm like, this whole thing is rotten to the core.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Burn it down. Yeah.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: of, rather than looking at any institution, just look at
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Around you that are living it, [00:41:00] you know?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: the, and again, I, I think all of us have those people.
We know those people. And even as you're talking, na names and faces are coming to my mind and I'm like, yeah,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: And that, that's, I love the simplicity of it. Like
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: hope from. It's like
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: just following Jesus in beautiful
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: that, again, don't make the New York Times bestseller list,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: what it looks like.
And that's where we're gonna find hope. And I think
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Right,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: it's not more complicated than that at, at one level.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: right, right. And in i, in places where not America, um, despite the, the claims of some who are like, we're being persecuted, like where actual real persecution is going on, like I. I understand that because I, I kind of started in, it wasn't true persecution, but it was definitely a, a, an environment that was very hostile and there was no one discipling me.
I didn't grow up in a, a [00:42:00] Christian world. I didn't even know one Christmas was until I was in high school. I mean, I knew it was in December, but we didn't. Pay attention to any of that stuff. It's hard to believe in America that there are people who don't know when Chris, I mean, they know it's inescapable, but it was just never, it was never a factor.
So I've always carried a little bit of that outsider, um, view even when I've been the person on church staff or the person in charge of this or that. Um, I'm, I don't, I don't. I think it is, that is identity shaping, an identity defining in the same way that, um, just there's Jesus, you're sitting on a hillside, he's standing [00:43:00] on the edge of the sea and he's saying, blessed, are you losers?
I'm like, yeah, that I get
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Hmm.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: so.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: That's good. All right, one more quote I loved, and this gets to an idea that. I, I think we've gotta talk more about, and this is still not the norm in evangelicalism today, and so as a guy, I'm going to keep championing this. It's the, the way you talk about the priesthood of all believers. You say the emphasis in those circles was on the priesthood part,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: so much on all believers. I noticed that the men of the church use the phrase often, the women rarely did.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: in your love for church history, why do you think evangelicalism so easily shifts the focus to men?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Well, it has a lot to do with culture [00:44:00] more than scripture. Um, there has, there's always been women that have taught. And led and cared and discipled and done crazy courageous things and partnered with men. Um, but a lot of the, the backlash that we've seen, um, in the rise of Complementarianism, um, as kind of, uh, almost credle in its.
Value, like it's, people may say a creed, I believe in God, the father almighty maker, grow of heaven and earth. You go down the apostles creed, the nice creed, but then there's these other creeds that are just as powerful in evangelicalism like the rapture or [00:45:00] that only men can do this or that or whatever.
Depending on your, your. Um, circles that you travel in, and a lot of it is a reaction against modernity. It's a reaction against the, the shifts in culture. But in all of that, it's also a disconnection from church history and from the story that Jesus told and that was told through the New Testament as well with.
Women popping up in that culture that they even got a mention is shocking. You know, much less that there, they were all, all around.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Mm.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: So, um, priesthood of all believers is all
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: All, all believers, not just
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Yeah. All not just dudes. So,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: I love it.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: yeah.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Okay, [00:46:00] we're gonna transition now. We're gonna ask you some, some questions that I like to ask each guest, and then the listeners get to compare your answers. To,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: oh,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: episodes. So
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I better take a drink of,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: switch gears for a little bit. We'll give
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: story to tell us. If I were to ask you, Michelle, what is a memory you have?
And again, this can go anywhere you want to go. If I said, what's the best glass of wine? You've
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Is there a story that comes to mind? Was it at a place with people? Was it a certain bottle, certain glass? Any details you go anywhere you want with this, but the the best you've ever had, like that was wine at its best.
Is there a moment that comes to mind for you?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I think I, I have a couple, but the first one that popped into my head when you started to ask the question. Was at a wine test, wine tasting in southwestern Michigan with my husband [00:47:00] on an anniversary trip. I know they like to think that they're, they're like the next Napa Valley there. They're not quite there, but, um, but I don't know if it, it was just the time.
Um. The fact I love wine tastings because I love to. I love doing that kind of comparison. So it wasn't necessarily tied to a celebratory meal or anything, but it was just sitting in this beautiful place on a beautiful fall day sipping really, really delicious wine with the guy that I love.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Hmm.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: so. I, that kind of was my first answer.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Love it. That's a great answer. Okay, now this is gonna get a little, a little trickier. Which member of church history [00:48:00] would you trust to pick a bottle of wine for you?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: oh,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: And who would you not trust
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: oh,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: So you
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: that's,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: that you
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: mm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: they're gonna deliver for you, and then someone else you're like, not that one.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I can say I would not trust Martin Luther.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Okay.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: That one's easier. Um, because he, he, he brought a lot of great questions and theology kind of into the, for got people thinking. But, um, he. He, he was so antisemitic, I'd be afraid that he would give me something. Worm Woody. Um,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Okay, so you
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I'm from,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: on that than I I understand where you're going now. It's not where I
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: yeah, I'm, I'm from Chicago.
Have you ever heard of Mallor?
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Yeah. Oh yeah. I, uh,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Okay. Uh,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: [00:49:00] Uh,
on TikTok that always does malor challenges, and it's hysterical.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: it's, it, it's so disgusting. It's like drinking. Yes.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: I didn't, I didn't connect that.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Yes. And it's like drinking turpentine. Um, it's the opposite of a nice glass of wine. And, um, so yeah, that's, I I would be afraid that Martin Luther would put Mallor in my glass instead of like a nice cabernet. So,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: you don't think
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: um,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: of
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: so now who, who would. Who would I try?
I'm trying to think of a person. A lot of the church history people that I love are really intense or contemplative characters and aren't necessarily known for joy. Like St. John of the cross, not exactly the guy you wanna bring to the party, for example. Um, but [00:50:00] I think from recent church history. Maybe popping a cork with Dietrich Bonhoeffer would be kind of a fun, like not, not in those last years of his life, but when he, after he traveled to America, went back to Germany and got some very good clarity about what was happening in his culture, sitting and having a good conversation with him.
Um, over a glass of wine would be something I might enjoy.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: You guys might. Have quite a few shared frustrations with Martin Luther too that you guys
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Yes, yes. See, so that's, my brain was already there, so that's how I ended up there.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: same, same, uh, country as him, he would, I think, take issue with the same issues you had.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Right,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: That's great. Okay. [00:51:00] What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong? About,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Oh, rapture. Let's just for sure I, because it was presented to me as a young believer and in the world that I inhabited as, this is the only way. There's no other way. And anybody who doesn't believe this probably isn't even a Christian. And so when I would hear through church history or what some of the early reading that I did that people, not everybody signed up for that.
I was like, well, they just didn't know better. Now we know better, so we do better. Right. So yeah, that would be one for sure.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Okay. I like it. do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Oh [00:52:00] my, well, they're in the book. That would be, that'd be one thing I could say, but if I had to kind of boil it all down, it is that, um, there's a deep misunderstanding of humility and repentance and. Because people don't get it. They don't do it.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Hmm.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Um, it isn't just, um, there's some famous people who say, I don't need to repent.
I haven't sinned. And I think, oh, no, you, your miles and miles from any chance at being healthy or being able to grow, being able to become. A different person. Um, one of my earlier books was about, um, spiritual formation at midlife and [00:53:00] beyond, and recognizing that we all hit a wall. That the training wheels that sustained us in our early years are not, um, we're not meant to ride through our whole life with training wheels on our lives.
The training wheels come off. It's often very painful. Um, when they do, but that, that place of humility of beginning again, of being born again, again, um, is, is the way forward.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: So we need to change our mind more.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Yeah. We, we have to be okay with that.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: I,
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Um,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: I love
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: yeah.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: that. We just need to all change our mind more.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: is something that's blowing your mind right now? What are you learning?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Oh, blowing my mind in a positive way. [00:54:00] I mean, all I have to do is sign on social media and my mind is blown literally every five minutes. Like, I can't even believe the world that we live in. But, um, I, I think. What's blowing my mind, it's even related to what I was reading right before we signed onto this call.
The courage of people to speak out, um, to tell the truth when it's not gonna, there's no guarantees, there's gonna be a happy ending. Um. A lot of times if you've been in a, a dysfunctional kind of church conflict, they'll point to Matthew 18, which has kind of a, a little step-by-step grid for reconci reconciliation, um, relationally.
And guess what? There's no guarantees that that is going to work. [00:55:00] Um, and people don't all follow the same script with that, but the, the courage of people. To speak truth to power is, um, I think connected on a spiritual level to the humility and repentance. They, they kind of all go together. Um, so yeah.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: What's a problem you're trying to solve right now?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm.
I live in a 50-year-old mobile home in a hurricane zone, and.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: It's a bold choice.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: It, it made sense before all the hurricanes showed up here. Um, there, there weren't that many before we moved here, but, um, kind of untangling. I thought we were maybe done moving and we were living very affordably. Um, [00:56:00] and. I'm not sure that this is a long-term sustainable solution. So if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and things like clothing, food, and shelter are kind of primary and you can't really think past that right now.
Um, we're in the middle of hurricane season, so far so good. But, um, trying to kind of detangle. What makes sense for a next step and a next address for us is that's the problem I'm trying to solve.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Figuring out
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Thank you, Mr. Maslow. Yeah. Yeah.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Okay. What's something you're excited about right now?
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: I love having the kind of conversations I'm having 'cause of this book. Um, I've been having them all along, which is why I, um. Wrote the book and I'm grateful that Erwin's published it. Um, [00:57:00] but these conversations, whether it's talking with people that are really mad at the church or really sad with the church, or they're.
Gung-ho and they think everything's great. Tho those conversations are life giving, because finding places to connect with people and ask questions, um, brings me, um, an absurd amount of joy.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Hmm. I love that. Okay. Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you want to add that I haven't asked you about? But we cannot close the books on this episode unless you get
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Mm. Well, I think more podcasters should encourage their guests to crack open a cold one or pour a bottle of wine. Like, [00:58:00] I, I think this is fantastic, but I don't, I don't have anything except that I'm grateful that there are voices. I will say LA to, to your listeners. I'm grateful that there are voices like yours that are out there having these conversations because they tell everyone they're not alone.
All the people at the margins, all the people who've been disenfranchised. Um, need to know that there's, there's a great cloud of witnesses. They're not alone. So,
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: That's a beautiful concluding thought, Michelle, how can people find you? Find you online, find your work, find out more about this book.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: um, my name's Michelle Van Loon, two Ls in Michelle. And Van Loon is like the car and like the bird, just like it sounds. [00:59:00] So I have a website. I, yes. And I have, um, a substack as it seems that everyone and their sister-in-law has. Um, and I'm on Blue Sky and Facebook and Instagram and looking for conversations all the time.
And, um, and grateful. That those places exist, because I think God's used that to save my faith during these last years as well. I'm not alone either.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: Well said. Well, you are not alone and I am so grateful that you are putting the work in to share these kind of ideas with more people, and incredibly grateful you'd spend time out of your afternoon in the middle of hurricane season to enjoy a glass of wine with us and share these ideas. So thank you so
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Yeah.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: and thank you so much for spending the time with us.
squadcaster-jjhi_1_08-26-2025_160250: Thanks. [01:00:00] Thanks for having me.
jeremy_1_08-26-2025_130250: All right everybody. We will catch you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray.
