Hell Bent (with Brian Recker) | Ep. 57
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Steve: [00:00:00] This is Steve from the Rebuilding Faith Online community. I joined this community because like many, I found myself increasingly disillusioned with the traditional church. All too often, their teaching seemed to be at odds with what I believe to be Jesus's message of unconditional love. I was looking for a safe place I could learn and grow in my faith journey along with others on a similar journey, a place where I could freely explore questions, doubts, and different perspectives without judgment.
I love the inspirational podcast and insightful comments from fellow community members. My favorite has been the book Reading Challenges. I love exploring contemporary authors alongside my fellow community members and realizing I'm not alone. I feel closer to Jesus than I have in a long time.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray.
Where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. And today we're talking about hell.
We're gonna explore a terrific book that comes out about a week from when [00:01:00] I'm posting this, called Hellbent. Brian Recker is the author.
He is an ex evangelical pastor, is how he refers himself. He talks about he began his deconstruction journey. During the first Trump term, because of Christian nationalism, which has only intensified, and he's got this book coming out, on the 30th of this month about how evangelical spirituality is warped by punishment and the afterlife, and ultimately.
He's helping us to reclaim the spirituality of Jesus. What I found when I read this book, not only did I think he tackled these ideas in a very practical and helpful way, but it's a book that gives you hope. If you're, , looking at everything right now and you're just going, man, this feels heavy.
And I don't know, this is one of those books you read and you go, alright, maybe there's a way forward, maybe we can, get our way out of this. And I really do think that Brian's one of those voices that is worth listening to and can help [00:02:00] us in that regard. So this is episode 56, hell bent.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happen in this conversation right now, thousand years from now, people are gonna be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would've no idea.
Steven A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? You gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment, resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I mean the camp that God is at, universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass and it delivers a little more of a punch than I [00:03:00] expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You tell me to drink and I just show up.
I'll also say as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about. The beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the, the hospitality that this particular podcast provides folks like myself and I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that's very unique. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk [00:04:00] History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine early. The wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage. You really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Welcome to the podcast Brian Recker.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: What's going on, Jeremy? Thanks for having me, bro.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: He's all tatted up. For those of you who are only doing the audio version of this, you're missing, you're missing quite the picture here, so I'll have to paint it a little bit for you. He's in, uh, he's in the, the, the white tee. He's got all the tats, got the wine. You're, you're a whole vibe right now. I'm [00:05:00] digging it. I'm here for it.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Try to try to give the people what they want, you know?
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: All right. Let's talk about what we're drinking and then we're gonna talk about a great book that's coming out soon. I am drinking, it's, it's still in the throes, even though it's officially fall, it's still in the throes of, of summer here in Arizona. We still have a hundred degree temperatures this week, and so I'm going white wine Today, I'm doing a 2020 authentic Bremen Town Riesling. my friend Nicholas Keeler in Oregon, and I'm enjoying this because it still is hot. getting green, apple and pear, little petroleum, uh, that you get with Resing a lot and it's quite nice. That's what I'm rocking. Brian, what are you drinking in your glass today?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Well, you're like a pro. Okay, so I will just say I'm not that much of a wine drinker. I'm usually a, a beer or liquor guy. Um, but I, I went ahead and got a cab, a cabernet because, [00:06:00] um, well, you know, it's Cabernet and prey and just felt like that would be the move. Couldn't go wrong there. Um, I got one that was on sale, and it's, it doesn't even say the year on here, bro.
It's from California. It's just Cabernet Sonet in California. I'm like, where's the year? It's like, not even on the label. So maybe they were embarrassed by that. I, I'm not sure I, but. You know, it's flavorful, full bodied. What are the notes? It says toasted oak and vanilla. And that feels right. Kind of jammy
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Okay.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: over here. I guess I don't, I'm sorry. I'm not particularly good with this.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: people, if they get stuck is I say, there's two kinds of wines at the end of the day. There's wines you like and there's wines you don't like. Man, it doesn't need to be
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I'm it,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: than that.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I like it. I'm, I'm happy with my choice. I, I like reds typically over whites, but, um, sometimes they're gross and I don't really know how a better way to say that, but this one's not gross, so I feel good about it.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Well, cheers to you and cheers to all of our listeners on another episode of Cabernet and pray. Before [00:07:00] we get into Brian's book, I want to ask a question that I, I know some of the answer to because I've read the book, but I'm gonna, I'm, I'm excited answer because I've read the book. I, I, I know you have quite an answer for this.
One of the questions I like to start with, to give our listeners a chance to get a frame of reference for, for who you are, a little bit of your journey. If you were to look at the last 10 years of your life, how has your faith changed in the last 10 years?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Wow.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: his eyes are big because he is got, he's got quite an answer for this one.
You could go a lot of
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: For 10 years ago, 2015 is really when, when things started for me. Um, well, that's not true. Okay. So 10 years ago with the, with Donald Trump becoming the front runner of the Republican, uh, party, that was really my first, um, moment that I felt deeply disillusioned with Evangelicalism. But technically, my story of deconstruction started even before that because I started out as a fundamentalist [00:08:00] and I moved when I, I left fundamentalism for Evangelicalism, which was kind of, it felt like a very big progressive leap at the time.
Actually becoming an evangelical was like very edgy. That disappointed my parents actually who are still independent Baptist fundamentalists. Um, but 2015 was when Evangelicalism began to break for me 10 years ago. So yeah, in the last 10 years. It went from that initial sense of, oh, is evangelicalism just kind of repackaged fundamentalism with slightly better vibes?
And you can wear, you know, at the time, skinny jeans and, you know, have some tattoos and drink beer. But ultimately you're still in this exclusionary system that's primarily about domination and with, with Trump becoming their guy, it, it's ultimately about power as well and, and easily used as a tool for Empire, which we saw on full display, probably in its full flowering in some ways.
Uh, just the other day at that funeral slash political rally, um, where you saw this incredible blending of, it [00:09:00] was like an evangelical revival meeting meets like a, a Nazi propaganda rally, right? And those things wove together seamlessly. And in some ways I began to see the, that flowering in, in 2015 and here we are.
Um, and so yeah, it sucks that, um, and. Yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy how many of us like left over that 10 years and who made the journey out of it because we started to see that direction. And it's really wild thinking about people that, that have stuck through it those 10 years and are, are, have gone even deeper.
And that's like really sad to me when I think about that, but there is probably a lot more I can say about that. But that's really where, where that began. And, you know, that ultimately led me out of the evangelical church completely. I spent a few years there trying to kind of do the change from within thing, but then I ultimately realized that I was still censoring myself and I could only evolve so much from within that system in order to really have integrity.
I had to come outside of that system because, um, the institutional pressure from within made it [00:10:00] so that you could sort of chip away at the edges, but you could not. Yeah, I mean, if you were to actually, for example, fully endorse queer people, you would be, you would be kicked out. So you could sort of talk about vague justice and say, we need to care more about the vulnerable.
But as soon as you began to apply that to specific groups that the evangelicals wanted to demonize, they, you know, they would, they would kind of cut you out, which has ultimately happened. So when I left, um, in 2020, and then I guess it was not until. 2021, or, no, actually probably 2022 that I first put out a video where I talked about why I believed Christians should embrace LGBT people.
Um, and that was like, I had been feeling, I had believed that for some time, but it took me a while to get to the place to actually say it because I knew that it would just cause a big backlash in the community that I had been a part of. You know, they removed my sermons from their website and that sort of thing at that point.
But once that bandaid was ripped, it was even easier to go ahead and be my full authentic self without worrying about sort of any [00:11:00] consequences from that community knowing that they had already kind of labeled me as a heretic. Um, so yeah, in that 10 years I've kind of made, it was a slow journey and, um, you know, I'm not gonna say that it's over, but I certainly am in a totally different place.
Uh, thank God, honestly,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Yeah. Yeah, that's so, that's so interesting. You talk about people who, when, when you are the
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: on the journey and then you look back at people who are still in the spaces where you used to be and you used to resonate, it is an interesting disconnect, right? Where you go, oh, I remember when we were in that space together and I agreed with you, and then I moved and you didn't move, and you still, you know, are still there.
And then sometimes those relationships get really weird and, you know, there are these topics, like you said, if you, if you come out affirming of, you know, the queer community, it, it is, it is often a line in the sand. In fact, I.
wrote a blog post today just on like unpacking Romans 14, which I think is a really good argument for [00:12:00] inclusion of the queer community. And I had someone that worked with me at the same church and responded to that on social media with just like a laughing emoji.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Oh my God,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: saw my whole post. And I just
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: right?
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: like, we've gone such different, you know,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: But you mentioned in the book you had this line, and I don't have it in front of me, but you had this line about your, your dad and you had just mentioned your parents, you know, coming from this just traditional space. I'd love to hear a little bit, how have you navigated that with them? Because from, from what I can gather of what you say in the book, your dad is still way more fundamentalist on the hell issue. And you, and you even said something to the effect of like, this has damaged your relationship at times, but it seems like you've also have found a way to find a peace about that.
How have you navigated that with
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah, so my dad is still an independent fundamental Baptist pastor. He's a full-time pastor and he's like, he's the kind, [00:13:00] there's two kinds of fundamentalists. Like I, I, I think evangelicals are fundamentalists, but they don't use that label. They don't label themselves that way. My dad is the kind of fundamentalist that is proud to be a fundamentalist.
Like he will tell you, he'll introduce himself as a fundamentalist. Okay. And so that's like what I came from, and that's what he still is. So yeah, he believes in hell. Um, and I, that, that can be hard. What I say in the book is that. I talk about the way that hell twists the very meaning of love and makes it hard to truly really accept someone where they're at.
I mean, at the heart of loving someone is that you're not, you don't need to change them. You're not trying to make them more like you. You're, you're loving them right where they are for who they are, and hell makes that almost impossible because to love them is to if, if you believe they're going to hell.
Then you can't accept where they are because that's, that, that's to kind of allow them to go down a path that would lead to their destruction. It, [00:14:00] it's like not calling out while a truck is about to hit them. So you are compelled to, to, to change them. To save them. And, and actually you will feel guilty if you're not thinking about that all the time.
If you're, if you, you're in, in those spaces. I remember being told, how could you go to a family, get together and just enjoy them and have a nice time as if, and not even speak up for the fact that like these people who are going to hell, like assuming that these people are unsafe to, to not say anything at all, how little you must love them to not say anything at all.
Like if you loved them, you would actually try to pull them outta the flames. Right. And so my dad feels that he feels that deeply and so he has on various points. Pleaded with me, right? And it comes from a, a father's heart at times. Like he's gotten emotional before telling me, like, I'm afraid for your soul.
And you know, the Bible says that a false teacher is worthy of a more severe punishment even than a regular heretic. Okay? So like [00:15:00] he feels that, and what I say in the book is that when he is saying those things, as much as it hurts, I try to remind myself that that is my dad trying to love me
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hmm.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: from within his paradigm.
That's what love is going to look like. And unfortunately, nothing fucks up love like hell, because that's his version of love right now. But it's not, it's hard to receive that as love.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Yeah,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: So I do think that's, and, and I have said that to him, well, not that part that I don't use the f word with my dad, but what I have said to him is, um, I've acknowledged his pain.
'cause it's always helpful. Listen, I think it's crazy that he believes that in a way. Um, but on the other hand, I, I can empathize with the human emotion that he feels fear for, for the future of his son, right? Like, I can, I have sons so I can like empathize. How that would feel. And so what I've said to him is, I, I can see how hard that must be, that you have to carry that, that belief that your kids, not just me, but like all of his kids at this point, none of 'em have stayed that true tried and [00:16:00] true path that he's on.
You know? And so that you have like, that you carry that belief that all your kids are gonna hell, I bet that's so hard and I'm really sorry that, that you believe something that like has to make you feel that way. Like, I mean I implicitly I'm saying like it would be cool if you stopped believing it, but I don't have any expectation.
I release control. That's the other advice I've had. And I try to urge my dad 'cause he feels like a failure and he's, he voiced that at, at times he's been like, and I guess I must be just a lousy father because none of you honor have honored me in this way. And I, what I try to say to him is, no. Being a good parent is not about controlling how your kids turn out, it's about staying connected to them on the journey of life.
You can't control somebody how they, who they become. I can't, you can't control me anymore than I can control you dad. And thankfully though, like with my sons, I don't have to control them because no matter how they come out, I don't have to believe that they're gonna go to hell for eternity. So like that, that belief does make it very hard to release the control, but it's so essential 'cause it's an [00:17:00] illusion you can't control.
If anybody could have controlled how their kids could have come out, my dad would've done it and he couldn't. So let go of that illusion.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Has he read your book?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: No. Well, I mean, it's not out yet, but I actually have asked him not to read it, and so we'll see if he, I, you know, again, I can't control him. If he wants to read it, he'll read it. But, um, I basically said like, listen, dad, if you're curious about like the arguments in the book, um, I can recommend other books that say similar things.
I don't think you need to hear it from your son. I don't think you'd receive it anyway, you know?
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Interesting.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah. So I've asked him not to read. I don't want, I think it would just be hurtful. He's so rigid. Um, you know, unless you're gonna lean in, here's, in any case, it's never helpful. I don't argue with my dad. I don't try to convince my dad.
I just want my dad. I tell him, I was like, I just want you to show up. I don't want you to argue with me and convince me. I don't want you to evangelize us when you come and visit. I want you to be a dad and a grandpa. I don't want you to be on mission. Okay. Um, we're not your mission field. We wanna be your [00:18:00] family.
And so I can't, I, I don't do that to him either. If he leans in and asks me a curious question, an honest question, then absolutely. Like, let's go ab. Absolutely. But if somebody doesn't have that posture of curiosity where they're actually open to changing their mind, they're not gonna change their mind.
People don't change their minds unless they want to change their minds,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Right.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: they'll kind of let you know if that's where they're at. Otherwise you can't force it. Yeah,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: That's good stuff. All right.
Let's talk about some quotes from the book. I'm gonna read a quote that I loved and you just get to react to it. And this is the fun of, I always tell people the, the fun part of interviewing, you know, uh, an author of a book is as you read the book and you're like, Ooh, I like That I
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: right.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: down with you and get you to elaborate on it. So that's, that's the fun
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Love it.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: everybody gets
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: is actually a really cool way to do an interview. Just like read a quote and be like, go. Yeah. Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: All right, here we go. You say this, judging from the way that many Christians talk about Jesus, you'd think [00:19:00] Jesus did not need to live at all. He only needed to die, which is a bit of like a mic drop.
Like, oh yeah. I had not thought about it. The, like, you say that so succinctly. Why does the hell topic show us that the death is the only thing that we're banking on?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I, I hate to bring it up again, but we saw a great example of this just the other night at that Charlie Kirk Memorial as well. There was an altar call, a, a cer, there was a gospel sermon, and I saw some Christians on Twitter celebrating that the go, like, whatever you think about the politics of this night, the gospel was preached maybe on the biggest stage in American history.
In fact, some people were speculating. This was the largest altar call in American history. Gospels preached to millions of people. People got saved, right? And by that, what are they saying? They're saying that, and, and the message was really, it was a message about accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for your sins.
So that. His, [00:20:00] basically he's punished in your place. 'cause somebody has to be punished. This is a framework really where punishment is in charge, not love. So, so God's hands are tied. Somebody's gotta be punished. Either you're gonna be punished or Jesus. If you accept that sacrifice, Jesus is punished in your place so you don't have to be punished in hell.
You can go to heaven when you die. It's an afterlife focused gospel. It's a belief focused gospel where it's really just about, uh, assenting to this sacrifice, uh, that Jesus did a transactional sacrifice. So it's a transactional gospel and it's afterlife focus, and it's based on Jesus' death, not Jesus' life.
None of this has anything to do with what Jesus taught, how Jesus lived, what Jesus' relationship with God was like. What Jesus' relationship with people was like, what Jesus said, the purpose of his ministry was how Jesus lived his life. How Jesus said, we're supposed to live our lives. None of that. It's not about that at all.
It's about securing your seat in, in the afterlife and really a about avoiding the punishment of a punishing God in hell. [00:21:00] And it's so, it's, it's related to the death of Jesus. So in, in the second half of my book, I, I realize that, um, and this is kind of what differentiates my book a little bit from other hell books.
So some people are like, why do we need another book about like hell or universalism? You know, we have Rob Bell's amazing book Love Wins, which came out about a decade ago. And really for me, where this book came from was that when I would talk about the fact that I didn't believe in hell, in other words, I believe hell is a metaphor, I don't think it's a real place that God is going to punish people in.
Um, when I would say that people would say, well, if there's no hell, what's the point of Jesus? There's no hell. Why did Jesus live? Why did Jesus die? In other words, for most Christians, the point of Jesus is to save you from hell. And really by that they're talking about the death of Jesus. So to bring it back to that quote, that's why so for so many Christians, you can really, with the story of Jesus, skip from the virgin birth, which really just proves, oh, Jesus is God to the atoning death.
Um, even the resurrection almost doesn't play much of a part because I, I think a lot of Christian, for a lot of Christians, the resurrection is just [00:22:00] proof of Jesus'. God, it doesn't actually accomplish anything. Sal Ally, because the whole point is really that Jesus died in our place, was punished in our place.
So it's a gospel of punishment. It's a gospel of the afterlife. Um, it's a gospel of hell.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: That's good. You say, if hell is real and God punishes people for failing to be in proper relationship with God, then connection to God is not about growing in God's love. It is about avoiding God's punishment. And if you ask any therapist or relationship expert, what do you call a relationship where you're not allowed to leave or the other person will punish you, they will tell you that's a toxic relationship. That is such a good quote, dude.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I know the girlies will appreciate that one. 'cause it, I, I, I don't think I put it in there, but when I've said this, explain this out loud. I'm just like, when we hear about a relationship like that, we say, girl run, like get out girlfriend. He's, he's not good for you. [00:23:00] Okay. He's gaslighting you
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: to the Christians right now? Like run.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: and Yeah. No, it's true. Uh, so I have a section in the book where I talk about, you know, that classic evangelical catchphrase, uh, working on my relationship with God, right? The, that's, that's what it, that we say. It's a, it's a relationship not a religion. And evangelicalism, it's at the center of what it means to be a Christian is you're somebody who's in relationship with God.
And what came, came to be pretty clear to me is that for most evangelicals as evidenced by even just the other night where this, how did, if people came into a relationship with God that night, it was based on hearing a story where they deserve to be punished, but Jesus was punished in their place so that Jesus endured hell on their behalf.
They don't have to go to hell. Now, based on that information, would you like to be in a relationship with God, knowing what are the consequences for not being in a relationship with God [00:24:00] punishment? And so the, the foundation for this relationship is a threat. It's coercion, it is the, the threat of punishment.
And for most of us, we, I, I say in the book that for many evangelicals, even though, you know, they talk so much about their relationship with God, that relationship began with hell.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hmm.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: And, um, if you are in that relationship and, and many, many Christians, obviously, I don't think that all of them are just constantly thinking about this threat.
I think a lot of people put it on the back burner. They compartmentalize, they push it to the side. I, I know that they're not all obsessed with hell all the time. I know many Christians do, in fact, commune with God, do read their Bible and pray, do long for God to grow them in love and, and all that sort of thing.
And that is what a relationship is about. A relationship is about. You stay in the relationship for the positive value that you receive from the connection, the growth that you experience in that relationship for the connection itself. Not because you're afraid of the consequences of the punishment, [00:25:00] of, of disconnection.
Um, and so I do think that hell makes it impossible because that the stakes are so high that the punishment is so grand. It is the ultimate threat. And really a lot of the this, uh, this was given to us when we were children. We didn't even have a legitimate say in in it. You know, we didn't make a choice.
It's not a choice when you tell a kid, Hey, do you wanna believe in this and go to heaven, or do you wanna reject this and go to hell for eternity? Like, that was the choice that we were given. And I'm sorry, but there was nothing spiritual about saying yes to that anybody can cave into a threat, um, that we're meant to be driven by love and hell makes it impossible to be fueled by love and connection, which is what grows us up and, and actually makes us, I think, flourish.
And it's what God wants for us. And so Jesus' commandment to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, I don't think is really impossible in, in the framework of a spirituality of health.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hmm. You know, when you, when you talk about it as a toxic relationship. It for [00:26:00] me these days not being in the evangelical space like I used to be. It, it feels so much easier to see that, where it's like, duh. You know, but
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah .
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: you know, a day when I firmly did believe this view of hell and it made sense to me because I was, I was raised on it and, you know, I was, I was the little kid told, these are your choices.
And it's like, yeah, I don't wanna, I don't wanna burn. You know, it's like, I'll, I'll choose this. And then you, you get to a point where you start going, this is a little bit weird. And this is one of the reasons, like, I, I love theology, and sometimes it'll be like, oh my gosh, like, let's talk about stuff that really matters.
You know, like the real, the real world. And I think this is such a good reminder of like, the way you envision God matters immensely. Because
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: this understanding of God that you, you likely started your relationship with, to your point, if that is healthy to you, then this whole thing is gonna be so funky. And you're gonna experience all these weirdness, you know, all this weird parts of it. Whereas you can set a step back and go, Yeah.
[00:27:00] you would never get into a dating relationship with someone who said, if you do not date me, I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z to you. Like you would never start a relationship that way.
Right?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: would be
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Oh, dude.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: And yet we do it
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: And that
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: and because
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: the funkiest thing too,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: it's normal.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: and it's, they do this gaslighting thing where the foundation, like, when you start the relationship, they tell you, now you have to be in a relationship with God or you're going to hell. So you wanna be in a relationship with God, right? And it's like, yes, okay.
Right? And then as you grow up, they say, no, this is all about love. This is all about love. God is love and you love God, right? Because God is love and you just love God. And it's just, you know, it's just all about love. You, you do, you do love God, right? Because you know what happens if you don't, right? And so there's this, and, and maybe that's even unstated, but that is the premise for most people.
And, um, that is a kind of a gaslighting because you're being told it's all about love and, and you're, if you even question that, like, oh, maybe actually it, it can't fully be all about love. If I'm being threatened into [00:28:00] this, then you're like, wait, are you must not even be a real Christian. You don't love God, just you just love God.
And it's like, okay, but like, what about. What about this whole hell thing? It was like, oh no, don't worry about that. Like, I'm not a Christian because of hell, they'll, they'll say that and it's like, okay, so don't be a Christian, but like, then boom. So it, it is like this weird dance. I, and I, I think it just ruins it and it makes it impure and it's unnecessary, but you see how essential it is when you try to remove it.
For many Christians, it is like this Jenga piece, and that's really why I felt like I needed to write this book was because for a lot of Christians, you take out hell and the, the whole system falls apart. It doesn't make sense anymore. And they'll say, well, I even be a C. So they'll say, on the one hand, no, it's, I'm not a Christian because of hell.
I just love God. But then you say, well, I don't think there's a hell. And it's like, why even be a Christian if there's no hell
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Then this whole thing doesn't matter. Yeah. No, that's so funny. And I, I suspect you get the same thing, but I regularly get, you know, on social media and I, and I'll post something I'll regularly get, you know, [00:29:00] some very conservative Christian will stumble across it on the algorithm and they'll, they'll threaten me with like, you know, some, it's usually something to do with hell. And it's so funny to me because I, I can tell by the way they're wording it, they really think that like, I'm going to start like getting nervous about their comment. Like, oh, I didn't think this through. Like, you're right. You know, and it's like, you, you, you don't, like, my favorite line I'll say to these people is like, you, your fear has no power here. Like,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Hmm.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: leave this comment, but it, I, I'm just promising you it, it's doing nothing in inside of here. Like, I don't live in that fear anymore. But this whole evangelical machine is run on this inherent sense of fear that Yeah.
if you logically pointed out, they downplay it. it is very real and present because if you, if you try to push the alternative, then the fear kicks in of like, well, well then what am I left with and do we go from here?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Totally. I think you made a great point a few [00:30:00] minutes ago too when you were talking about how your view of God, um. Is so important because it shaped so much else. Um, and I, I like to think about this because I still, even though I don't believe in hell, I still believe what you believe about God matters.
But a lot of people like when you think that that matters, some people just assume that that means, oh, 'cause if you believe the wrong thing about God, then something bad's gonna happen. You're gonna be punished. I don't think what you believe about God matters. Because if you die and you believe the wrong things about God, you know you got the wrong answers on the God test.
So now you go to hell, you're gonna be punished in some way. God's gonna punish you for being wrong about God. No, it matters because it shapes the kind of person you become and it shapes your priorities. If you believe God is love, but God also sends people to hell, then that means that your love can be punishing as well, that you think.
Christians who say that they believe God is love and that they believe that they're loving their neighbors. Also think alligator Alcatraz is awesome. So like, how do you get there? And I, I do [00:31:00] think that once you've invited the idea of a God who sends all of his enemies to hell, like a God who doesn't even take his own advice and love their enemies as themselves.
Um, yeah, like it, you, you now shape love in the image of punishment. So it matters what kind of God you have.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: You, you stole one of my quotes that I was going to use.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: What's that?
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: So, so
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Uh.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: get to it. Now. You say this, it's, it's, it's the, the part in the book where you say that if God's love includes punishment, then we start to believe our love can include punishment. And here's the way I, I, I was reading that the other day and I shared this with, with our online community, because I had, this was, go with me on a journey for a second.
This is a little aside, but it ties in. So I had this realization the other day that when, when I get flack online from conservative people. it, it will be a bizarre mix of like really sharp [00:32:00] biting insults mixed with really weird compliments. And I've just noticed this of like, man, this is like a whiplash.
You're insulting me and then you're complimenting how good I am at what I do. But you hate what I do, but like, and so I just have noticed a, a number of posts that I got recently and I was like, this is a really weird way. I think if you ask them, they would say, they're showing me Christian Love, right?
They're
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Mm.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: me in love, which is why they would say no. Look, I said this nice thing about you
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Right.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: you know these horrible things. I said to insult you. And I was processing that. And then I read that line of if God's love includes punishment, our love can include punishment. And it was like this light bulb went off and I was sharing with our online community, like. that's what that is. That they are channeling their understanding of how God operates. And so
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Totally.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: in the sense of, I love you and I love [00:33:00] you so much, that if you don't do exactly what I tell you to do, you're gonna burn forever. And that's what true
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: No.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: looks like. yeah, of course.
It looks like if I disagree with you, I get to say the nastiest thing possible. As long as I tell you that I love you. You know what I
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Right.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: I'm showing
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Well.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: same love, right. That God has shown me.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: They think they're showing love because again, like it's unloving not to say something if you're going down this dark path. Like they're speaking the truth in love. So the loving thing is to correct, is to rebuke it because you're trying to rescue them from that punishment. And so, yeah, I mean, what I point out in the book is that, you know, hell twist the very meaning of love and some of the most unloving things can be done.
And you could call those things love when you're doing it in the name of saving somebody from hell. Um, and the classic example that I, I see time and time again, and I've had at this point, dozens of people kind of talk to me about their situation of parents [00:34:00] cutting off their own children, not going to their weddings, not inviting them to holidays because they come out as gay.
Um, you know, and, and, and these parents will say, well. I can't come to your wedding because I love you and because I can't support the, your sin that's gonna lead you to hell. That would be unloving, right? And so as a result, they do these sort of punitive mindsets of, I'm, I'm gonna cut you off because I have to control how, who you become that is necessitated by, by their, their view of who God is and how God operates.
And this does, I, I talk in the book a little bit about how this affected me as a parent because I, I was raised being told that like parents should immediately discipline disobedience, like discipline. Uh, disobedience has to be, have immediate consequences. And really by consequences we meant punishment, not natural consequences.
Um, spankings for me, um, and, and this idea that. Um, if you weren't doing that, that wasn't loving because you were [00:35:00] allowing these kids to become rebellious and move forward in their sin, which is an unloving thing. 'cause it causes them to, you know, go further into sin towards hell. So that's unloving the loving thing is to bring that, that discipline or that punishment really.
And so, even though once I, you know, I began to deconstruct the idea of a punishing God. Ripping that punishing outta my parenting was really difficult because I actually felt unloving when I wouldn't punish my kids. But I felt like there was something, oh, maybe I'm being a bad father because a good father would be a disciplinarian right now and wouldn't tolerate that sort of bad behavior, that rebellious behavior, that sin or, or, or whatever.
And even though I had kind of begun to deconstruct that, there was still something in me that believed that punishment was righteous. Um, and I I, I don't, it doesn't work. I mean, the psychologists will tell us it doesn't work. Child development experts tell us it doesn't work. That actually kids need connection.
Not punishment. Natural consequences, yes. But arbitrary punishments and especially corporal punishment, absolutely not. It doesn't do anything good for our kids, and yet I would feel like I [00:36:00] was doing something bad for not punishing. That is, again, this, um, mindset that many of us were discipled with, that that's what true love looks like.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Were
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: It's pretty fucked up.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: uh, raised with all the Dobson stuff?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: So yes and no. It was a different world. It was adjacent, so I was fundamentalist, but there there's different brands of Fundamental Baptist and so we were adjacent to the Dobson. We, we were Bob a Bob Jones family, um, which was just a different world of fundamentalism. So similar stuff for sure. Um, but not directly Dobson.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Man, I'll tell you what, after he passed away recently, I have been, have been so shocked by the amount of damage that one man and his ideas have done to an entire generation of people.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: And I mean, there was a week where. All I was doing was just talking online and responding to people and just making space for [00:37:00] people to share their pain. And I had like this much of it, you know, compared
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: these stories that people were sharing. And, and I mean, it was just like it was the heaviest week. I'm watching, you know, on another hand, like these Christians honor him and celebrate him. You know, and I'm like, I'm getting flooded with people mourning, like the loss of their innocence and their childhood.
And now talking about the PTSD they have as an adult. you realize all of this stuff, it affects you as a parent. It affects the way you grew up. It affects the, the way you think of your childhood. I mean, like we're talking generational trauma is, is on the line with some of these bad theologies.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Totally, man. Um, yeah, I, uh, I, in my book, I, I, I referenced Dr. Becky Kennedy who wrote a book called Good Inside, and I think she's the antidote to Dobson in many ways. So if you were raised on Dobson stuff, [00:38:00] I think you should read Dr. Becky's book, good Inside, which I found really, really healing. It's not technically a theology book, but, um, I, I do actually, I I drew a lot from it and, and it healed some stuff in me for sure.
Um, because ultimately to parent that way, the way that she's recommending, which by the way, is data driven. So like her, her, the, what she's recommending is based on what leads to good outcomes for kids. What, what neuroscience, what child development experts say is good for kids' brains. You parent better, you parent in a way that serves yourself and your kids better.
When you have the perspective that your kid is good inside. And I was raised believing that I was wicked from birth, that I was born worthy of going to hell. And actually, it really does affect how you view someone, how you relate to someone in relationship, whether you believe that that person is fundamentally worthy of love, deserving of love, or fundamentally deserving of punishment.
And I was taught that from birth. I was fundamentally before God and my parents. I was fundamentally wicked and [00:39:00] deserving of punishment. I couldn't listen to my heart, my intuition. I couldn't, I, I was desperately wicked. And that actually, that affects how you see yourself and other people. And it's not, it's not biblical, it's not true.
And it doesn't lead to good outcomes mentally, for children, for people, for human beings. Um, and so, and, and that is rooted in, in hell, hell doctrine for sure.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Well,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: So taking that apart.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: is, is based on
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: is based on these theologies that, you know, the way I say it is, you're a piece of shit, but good news, Jesus can fix you. You know? And
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: the way we present it. And well, it's like, well if your starting point is I'm a piece of shit, then that's, that's where my self-esteem is gonna stem from.
Right? Which is why you see so many people struggle with things and it's like, I love
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: totally,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: I've not read that book, but starting with the premise that you're good inside is a fundamentally different starting point than
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: totally.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: raised with that. You know, I was, I was raised in the original SIN camp.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah, I, I do [00:40:00] think it matters whether, yeah, that is the classic gospel that we grew up with, was God loves you in spite of who you are because you're actually not worthy. It's you're undeserving of God's love. That's mercy. The God, the love that God shows you is grace because it's totally deserved. You do not deserve to be loved.
And that, that's fucked up actually. I, I act. And, and that does affect how you view everyone. I believe that every single person is worthy of love, is worthy of care and compassion. Um, they're, they're deserving of that, not in spite of who they are, but because of who they are as image bearers of God. Um.
That's just, yeah, it is a very different starting point. And that's the good news, by the way, and that's what grace is, is that unmerited favor doesn't mean that despite how absolutely terrible and unworthy and wretched you are, we love you anyway. That's not grace. Grace is, everybody can get in on this.
It's not deserved because just innately who you are, you're worthy of it. You don't have to work for it. [00:41:00] You don't have to earn it. It is actually, it is deserved. That's the message of grace. And that's every single person as an image bearer of God is worthy of love just by nature of being, being born a, a human being in God's image.
Um, and I was told the exact opposite of that, that just really by virtue of being born a human being, you are worthy of hell because you made that unfortunate choice of being born a human being.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Well, and, and so many, so many of the things that are said on, on, you know, church stages, by worship leaders setting up, you know, moments and all this is that language you know of, you know, God, you, you chose to love us even when we don't deserve your love. it's like, now I hear that and I go, why? Why don't we deserve God's love?
Like, I
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Right,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: sit down with the worship leader in that moment and go, help me understand why you don't
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: right.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: worthy to
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Uh,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: of God. And you know, I think they would go, well, I, I don't mean it like that, you know, they would try to like move around it, but
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: well,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: that's the language
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: is [00:42:00] used.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Absolutely. So common. Yeah. You love us even when we don't deserve it. How about, wouldn't it be better to say that? Like your, your love it. It's, it's always present beyond deserving. We we're always worthy of love. Even when we mess up, of course we're fallible. Nobody's saying we're not, we're, we're perfect, right?
Every, we're fallible, frail, vulnerable, capable of immense evil, uh, and making horrible mistakes. And also just vulnerable to, to circumstances. You know, we are desperately like fragile creatures and we need love, and we also are worthy of love, and we should care for one another and create the kind of world that values people, the way that God values people.
That's the kingdom of God.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Amen. I like it. All right. You say the spirituality of hell excludes and others people, Jesus includes the other and shows us that we are all more similar than we thought. We are connected, whether we are aware of [00:43:00] it or not. Refusing to see this, that is hell. I love the way you talk. One of my friends, Andrew Deur has this phrase, he always talks about othering, that we are othering people. And I, I got that, that parallel here of. Hell is really an othering type theology. And when you, when you buy into it, you ironically enter into a place of hell where there are, you know, us and them and there are lines to be drawn and am I in and am I out?
And that is hell. How, how do we get beyond that? How do you see re removing the other and, and a better way of thinking about this,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah, I, I think he, health theology, like you said, it actually heightens that tendency, which I don't need, God. I don't need the Holy Spirit to help me other people. I do that just fine on my own. Damning people, putting people into categories, um, saying, I [00:44:00] am in and you're out and I am, you know, I'm good and you're bad.
I don't need, that's the flesh, that's what the flesh does. I think that is, those are tribal instincts. I think that we, that Jesus was calling us beyond. Um, I think the quote that you mentioned, I'm trying to remember where that was in the book, but I think I might've been referencing the Parable of the Prodigal son in that section, which I use a couple times in the book.
And I think that the picture of the older brother being outside of the party, that God the father is throwing that is, I think. The, a powerful picture of what hell actually is. It's the, the, the party's for everybody. The invitation is always open and anybody can get in on this. But when you refuse to join in, based on that scope of the welcome 'cause, Jesus was always welcoming people.
That was kind of his whole thing. They, they grumbled about Jesus and said, this man welcomes sinners and eats with them. And that that's what he did. He ate with the wrong kind of people. He was always throwing parties for people, and everyone [00:45:00] was always invited. And he told stories, he tells also, there's a parable of the banquet where, um, you know, the wedding invitation goes out and the rich people don't show up.
So the wedding host says, bring in the poor, the blind, the lame, the outcasts go to the highways and the byways let all those people come in. And the rich people who didn't wanna come, they can, they can be cast out. We keep ourselves out of the party, but the welcome is. Expansive. And now evangelicals will hear that expansive welcome and they'll just say, well, yeah, everybody can like, has the opportunity to receive the gospel.
You know, this isn't about assenting to a particular dogma and checking the box that, oh, I prayed a particular prayer or I responded to an altar call. This is it receiving the reality of our belovedness in God, which is true about everyone all the time. But when we refuse to embrace one another in our humanness, when we instead say, you are wicked, I am not, I'm going to heaven, you're going to hell.
I believe the right thing. You believe the wrong thing. You have to be converted to believe like me or you're fucked. [00:46:00] When we are doing that, we are in a mindset, not of connection, not of belovedness, but in separation and superiority, we're, that's the same mindset that the older brother had who didn't wanna enter the party we put ourselves in, in a kind of a psychological hell often.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hmm.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: That's one way to think of it anyway. Um. I'm trying to remember the other thing I was gonna say in response to that quote, but I guess that's good for now. End rant.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Okay. You, you talk about this, we'll get a little, little technical for a second. You talk about, uh, having a season where you, you believe the annihilationism view of hell
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Hmm.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: on your way to where you are. I did too. That was, that was
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Oh.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: my stepping stone too. So here, here's the idea I had after I read that. we be encouraging annihilationism as a gateway drug for what we really want people to experience? What do you think?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I mean, I, I think, um, I, here's why I needed that. I'll tell you why that was necessary for me. [00:47:00] Because in evangelicalism there needs to be an ingroup and an outgroup. And so even though I was trying to soften it, and by the way, annihilationism is still actually not only a softer view than eternal conscious torment.
It is actually also more biblical. Here's why. So it was not hard to be an annihilationist biblically. Most of the language about, um, about judgment is destruction language, not torment language. There is very little, okay.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: quick in case someone doesn't understand what we're talking about.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: So there are three historic Christian positions on hell. Three. All three of them are found early on in Christian history.
Uh, eternal conscious torment, which is kind of the majority traditional position that, that you are going to consciously suffer in hell forever. Um, if you're an unbeliever, the second position is annihilationism, which means that unbelievers are put out of existence, they're destroyed. And then the third position is universalism, that God will ultimately reconcile all creation to God.
Um, all three of those positions are early in Christian history. [00:48:00] Um, eternal conscious torment is the dominant evangelical position and really the majority position throughout Christianity. Um, I think there's all kinds of reasons for that. The Bible is not really one of them. I think control mechanisms, fear, shame, all of those are good reasons.
Um, annihilation actually is a very biblical position because there are a lot of, uh, uh, passages that point to destruction language. The destruction of the wicked is the common theme, especially in the Old Testament, but also in the New Testament. Um, and fire imagery. When fire imagery is used, fire consumes.
Fire is not an agent of torture. Fire is typically an agent of either consumption or refinement. So Annihilation wasn't hard to get to. Of course, the idea of God keeping people in existence just to torture them, like Jonathan Edwards talks about, like the spider dangling over the flame and just like holding him just there to suffer.
Like it's actually a sadistic image of God. And I hated it, and it drove me. It was really something that I was troubled with. And so I did a lot of research and I ultimately came to the annihilationist [00:49:00] position due to the destruction language. And then also, um, because ultimately universalism, even though it was very appealing to me, the, the system that I was in, we were evangelicals, which meant we had to do evangelism, which meant we were supposed to be converting people, which meant we were trying to save people from what exactly from hell.
There had to be a punishment. The whole system that we had demanded a punishment. And so I tell the story in my book where I, I tell my lead pastor that I became an annihilationist. And I was nervous to do this 'cause I knew that that position was not actually, even, that is seen as a liberal position for many evangelicals, even though it still seems pretty severe.
And he was like, okay, so you don't believe, uh, that, you know, unbelievers are gonna be, you know, torture forever in hell? And I was like, no. Um, and he is like, okay, but you think something bad is gonna happen to them, right? And I was like, yeah, totally, totally like something bad. And I realized though, as I reflect on that moment, that.
Their system demands that there be a, something bad. There has to be a punishment and there has to be a them, there has to be an [00:50:00] outgroup. There has to be, those are the people out there and we are the safe ones in here. And our safety is really achieved and predicated on their, their out, their outsideness right.
And their otherness. And, and that also gives us a mission. It gives us something to do. Our job is to convert them and, and it also means that we are the ones with the keys to heaven and hell. We're the ones who know we have that insider knowledge and we're going to heaven. And so it puts us in this category.
All of that is essential to the evangelical spirituality. Um, just briefly, you know, 'cause I did mention that destruction language is very prevalent or maybe, I dunno, what was your next question? Maybe we're going there. Are we gonna talk about other health position?
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: a total curve ball, so no go where
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Okay,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: go.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: well lemme just say like, what I do with that now.
Is I think that the destruction language in the Bible is, for the most part, apocalyptic hyperbole. And typically, especially in the Old Testament, when the wicked are talk are talked of being destroyed, it's not talking about what happens to them in the afterlife. It's [00:51:00] talking about the consequences in this life.
So, for example, uh, hanno, which is the word that Jesus uses for hell, the valley of Hanno, he actually borrows this from Jeremiah. And when Jeremiah talked about Johanna, he said that the Valley of Hanno, ga Hena would become a valley of slaughter. Not because God was gonna throw a bunch of people into hell in the afterlife, but because the Babylonians were gonna come and destroy Jerusalem and destroy the temple and kill a bunch of people in this life because they failed to take care of the vulnerable, the poor, the needy, the widow, the outcast, the orphan.
And he said, because you haven't lived the ways that God is calling you to live. This is the natural consequence. So I, I see that destruction language typically in, in, through the Bible. You know, it's pointed at civil civilizations and empires that refuse to live out God's ways of love. And the idea is that those chickens will always come home to roost.
That when you sow violence, you'll reap violence. Not in the afterlife, but in this world. I believe that the Bible is telling a, a very, this worldly message.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hmm. love it. Okay, here's my curve ball. I love this [00:52:00] quote. Uh, I read this and I was like, oh, I gotta, I gotta ask you this. You say, I recently began attending an ecstatic dance group in Raleigh, and you tell one of the most amazing stories that I was. Doing my best to picture what this looked like, but you, you talk about this experience as like this beautiful picture of church, of of community and belovedness. I mean, it's just, it's beautiful. But mean, dude, it's wild. Like I want to hear more like, are you regularly going to this? What's the
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I haven't gone as often as I want because it's on Thursday nights and I have my kids on Thursday nights. That's one of my custodial nights. So I've gone on various times when I, for some reason am free that night. And so I've probably gone for it or so times. Um, and, you know, I still, I still feel a little awkward when I go.
It's, it's very a di it's a different sort of experience for me, but I do find it very powerful. Um, and also it's a very tight-knit community and people are [00:53:00] like being changed by that community. I point out in the book, you know, I'm talking about. What can our communities be, what can spiritual community be?
Because I don't think it's dogma that changes people. I don't think it's believing the right things that changes people. Um, you know, I went and you basically, you dance for 90 minutes. Some different person in the community works on a set every time. And so they, they share their heart behind the set.
They'll be like, you know, when I, here were my intentions for this set, here were some things that I would hope that we would feel and experience in this set. You laugh, bro, but that's what music does. Like, that's so fucking real, dude.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Oh, It's,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: it's rich. And, uh, then they have a little talk before you start dancing.
They, they talk about a spirit of consent because they want it to feel like safe and welcoming. And obviously you can dance with people, but it has to, like, nobody should feel like they have to dance with somebody they don't wanna dance with, you know? Um, and then the music plays and you just do whatever you want.
Some people are laying on the floor. Um, some people are like really good dancers. Other people are like, really awkward like me. And you [00:54:00] just feel it. And it, it is an embodied experience and I found that was really healing to me because I was not given a very good relationship with my body, with my physicality.
Spirituality was often, um, yeah, it didn't have much to do with being present in my body and being in the present moment. And so I've, I've found that really rich. And then after the dance is done. You sit in a circle and you just share and you can leave. You don't have to stay for this part, but a lot of people do.
You just share like, Hey, how was that for you? You know? And I was shocked the first time I went. How many people shared like spiritual revelations that they had while they were dancing. There was no preaching, there was no sermon. Nobody gave them like, you know, here's the 10 commandments that you have to obey.
It was, but some people were like, you know, as I was dancing, I just, I, I had been feeling a lot of resentment towards my mom lately, and I just, I was able to let that go. I just was able to forgive her. But, but we didn't preach a sermon on forgiveness, you know? But you were just being present in a loving community.
Love is what changes us. You know? We, it's so [00:55:00] funny. Great. We, we know this. There's a bible verse that talks about God's kindness leading us to repentance. And we know that it's grace that changes us. Like evangelicals will preach that, and yet they think they need the threat of punishment to change people.
They think they need dogmas to change people. It's actually love that changes people. It's unconditional acceptance that changes people. And this com a community without dogma can still have love. There was one, um, it was a, there was a non-binary, um, young person in the group and I, I'll never forget they sat in the group as we went around sharing, they said, and they looked like they're in their mid twenties and they said, you know, um, 15-year-old me wasn't even sure that I'd be alive right now.
Much less this happy. And so I'm just so thankful to you guys for being in this community with me. And I was just like, wow, what am I a part of right now? Like, this is cool.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: so cool.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Um, so yeah, a very rich thing to just be reminded as well of how God is not confined to evangelicals will tell you that God's not [00:56:00] confined to the four walls of the church, but they kind of act like, like God is right.
Um, because they think that ultimately God comes through their dogma and their answers. But God is for everybody, baby. And I have tasted God in some very non-Christian environments. And so I, I was, I, I'm excited that that story stood out to you. Um, I found that to be one of the most spiritual places that I've been to.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Dude, 90 minutes sounds like a long time to be dancing.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: It goes fast. No, it goes fast.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Does
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: You can, you can go leave and take a break. Some people take a break, some people go to the bathroom, there's people chatting in the hallway and they'll come back in and out. I got sweaty. I was getting into it, man.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: I got
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: It's great. I highly recommend, this is a popular thing. Most communities, most larger cities have one.
You can just Google ecstatic dance in my community and there's probably a group of like 20 of the most incredible people, and they're all gonna have good politics. By the way, these are typically not gonna be bad. These are gonna be good people that you're gonna [00:57:00] wanna hang out with and go dance with 'em, man.
Do it.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: amazing. I love it.
Alright, we're gonna transition some questions that I like to ask each of our guests and we get to compare your answers to everybody else and, uh, fun. So we'll, we'll do a wine question for you
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Oh, speaking of, I think I'll pour a little more.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Yeah, he's going
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I'm enjoying this bottle. I'm having a great time. I'm just going for it. I got this whole bottle just for this podcast. I wanted to be drunk by the end of it. We'll just see how that pans out.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Cheers to you, my man. Cheers. I love it. Okay, so you're, you're more of a, more of a beer guy, we get that. But you've, you've obviously are willing to drink wine. I imagine you've had wine. If I were to say to you, Brian, what's the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life? Is there any memory that comes to your mind that you were, you were with certain people, you were at a certain place, it was a certain bottle.
Is there anything that you have that you go, you know what? That is probably
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: for [00:58:00] me of like, that it was the, that was the best I I've ever had.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Uh, so this is kind of a random one, but yeah. When I was an evangelical pastor, my, that lead pastor that I mentioned, actually a sweet guy, like all these people, I wanna say this just real quick. You know, I, I disagree with. My evangelical friends on a lot of things, but like, I, none of this is personal. Like I, I wish that they weren't so hurt by my moving away because none of it had to do with like, I actually hate you guys now.
That's not what it is. Right. So anyway, this guy, the lead, the lead pastor, his name was Donnie. He was, he was actually a big foodie and a lot of pastors are actually really into food and wine. So he was a big foodie, big wino. And we were actually at a conference in Cape Town, South Africa, and he took the whole team out to like a nice steakhouse after the conference.
And he bought some nice wines. I didn't know shit about shit. I just let him get the thing. And I just had this picture of him like swirling his wine around in the glass and like smelling it and me just being, like, listening to what he was saying about the notes and not really knowing anything about it, but like, it was really incredible.
So people contain [00:59:00] multitudes, man. A lot of these evangelical pastors like love the finer things. For some reason I, uh, I don't know what that is.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: I love it. That's a great answer. Alright, member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you and who would you not trust and why?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Um, hmm. Uh, it feels like, um, Bonhoeffer seemed to be kind of a classy, classy little bitch. I, I bet, I bet he could piss out a good, a pick out a good bottle of wine, whereas I feel like Martin Luther was a big beer guy. He was kind of like more of a burly, I bet he didn't really give a shit about it. So I'll go, I'll go Bonhoeffer.
I don't know if he was into wine or not, but he always seemed very kind of like precious about things. So just like the vibe he gave off.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: who's picking it for you? Who do, who do you not, who do you not ask to, to pick a bottle for you?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah, I think Mar Mar Martin Luther. Yeah, Mar Martin Luther. I mean, he's like, I, I feel like he [01:00:00] was like, kind of, there was like toxic masculinity vibes about him or something. Like he was, he was more of a beer guy and I don't think he, I think he was probably looked down on, on wine drinkers. I don't know.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: especially late in life. Martin Luther. You wanna stay away from that guy?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I don't know historically his posture towards wine, but.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Uh, that's funny. I like it. Okay. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Well, I mean, my whole book is about my journey with hell. And so that was definitely something that I, I believed and I agreed with for a long time. I never liked believing it. It wasn't like I chose that belief and was like, I really wanna believe in hell. 'cause I think this is important. I thought I had to believe in it.
Um, and similar with, with the, um, with LGBT issues, I, I was not affirming because I thought that, that, I mean, I was told from a very, I grew up in fundamentalism. I was brought up with a disgust reflex with LGBT issues. My parents said it was gross. If there was like a man kissing another man, my parents would say, Ew, and say This is gross.
[01:01:00] And so I was taught that this was gross and, um. I, I've seen now with my sons that that's totally socialized there. There's, you don't naturally think it's gross. 'cause my kids have never been brought up with that position at all. Like, I, I, I was able to introduce them to married, gay friends very early on.
And so they just think it's normal, you know? But that was a way that I was raised. And even that I never, you know, once I started to know more about these as people, you know, gay people as people, I didn't wanna believe it, but I thought I had to believe it. Um, so getting free from, from that, both of those are, are two big ones for sure.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hmm. That's great. What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Oh my God. Well, uh, Christian nationalism is obviously a big one. I, I hate to make it all about my book, but I do think that hell is a huge control tactic used. Um. Not just in evangelical Christianity, but by by Christian nationalists. Absolutely. [01:02:00] It is. It is one of the biggest ones to break from and it kind of justifies everything else.
It is a Trump card when, whenever like the argument starts to fall apart or oh, it's, you're like unloving in this way, it's boom hell, and that is the Trump card. It, it trumps everything else and it keeps them from being more self-reflective about the harm of their policies on earth because they're so worried about saving people for heaven.
And so as a result, like, like I said, how can this gospel message at the Charlie Kirk rally where they had an altar call and all these people got saved and then it segues directly into a Nazi rally where Stephen Miller is talking about doing violence on their political enemies. So it's like, how is that side by side Simple Empire loves afterlife focused religion.
Empire will make this deal every single time you, the church, you take care of their souls. We're gonna control their bodies.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Yeah. Let us, let
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Oh, oh yeah, absolutely. You, nobody loves heaven and hell [01:03:00] focused religion more than corrupt politicians and billionaires. Billionaires are like, oh yeah, no, heaven and hell. Very, very important.
You guys stay focused on that. That's your, that's your thing. I'm gonna go ahead and just rule over the planet and exploit it for, we know, extract wealth. And so yeah, they love it and we're seeing that play out. So that's not the only issue for sure. But I do, I I would be curious. I, I don't think the whole thing could, it couldn't stand up without it.
I think that is what keeps it being an opiate. You know, mark's called religion, opiate of the people. And I think that really, that applies directly to afterlife focused religion. I think that a spirituality is not about this world, this life, the kind of societies we're creating, who humanity is becoming the future of our planet.
If it's not about that, if it's about where do we go when we die? Yeah, it's an opiate. Absolutely.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Well, and you, you kind of teased this, but it's a fun thought experiment and something that [01:04:00] truly. Maybe it can give someone hope today, but imagine if we could get more and more people free from the shackles of this hell theology. Like what would be the byproducts of that? You know what I mean? How many other bad things would unravel because they're connected to this one caboose, if you will.
Well,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah. I often find that I, I think when people are deconstructing this issue comes up pretty big time because as I point out in my book. When you start pulling the thread of hell, it starts to unravel the whole sweater of Christianity. Like once you start pulling it, you're like, oh, wait, but if there's no hell, then why did Jesus die?
And what's the atonement? And, oh wait, what's the point of being a Christian and didn't I become a Christian? Did not go to hell. And, and so all of a sudden it's like, what's the point of any of this? You start to unravel the whole thing unless you discover a spirituality from within Christianity, that that resonates with you.
And for me, that comes down to Jesus. So we, it's [01:05:00] all about going back to Jesus. Um, and so one of the reasons I wrote this book, and listen, I don't care where you land, like people on their deconstruction journeys can deconstruct however they want. It's not important for me that people stay Christian. I don't care how you label yourself.
That's not, that doesn't matter. I don't think God is gonna punish you if you say, Hey, actually I'm not a Christian anymore. Many of my best friends are atheists. Um, that being said, I think many people do reject Christianity altogether. Um, because it is an afterlife focused religion, and there are, I, I, I do love to point to not only Jesus himself and the spirituality of Jesus himself, which I don't believe was about that, but also throughout Christian history, that that has not been what it has been about for many Christians.
And so there's a long tradition now of liberation theology and mystical theology, um, that is about discovering our belovedness in God not punishment, and also about liberation for the oppressed. Um, and so that's what I try to point to in my book. Not, again, to control [01:06:00] people's outcome and make sure that they don't reject Christianity and stay, stay Christian.
But, but because I want people to know that if you wanna hold onto Jesus, you can. And it's not, it's not about heaven and hell, the people that think that it's all about heaven and hell aren't even listening to the message of Jesus. They're using Jesus as a transactional totem to basically get the afterlife that they want.
It's not about modeling themselves after the priorities of the Jesus, and we're following the living Christ in the here and now. And so for me, I, I do want people to know that they're. There can be a spirituality for them that might still work for them. And again, not telling them what to do, but presenting this as like, Hey, this is a spirituality that is still working for me from within Christianity, from within the Christian tradition.
I don't have to, you know, I grew up on Jesus and you know, I've had a lot of problems with Christianity in the church through the years, but none of those really were because of who Jesus was and what Jesus was saying. And so I love that. I haven't had to throw him out. If anything, I [01:07:00] actually feel like I'm following Jesus more closely than ever.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Yeah, totally. What's something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Man, I don't have time for learning right now. My book's about to come out. I'm, I'm, I'm just going on podcasts talking like this. Um, what, that's a good question. What is blowing my mind right now? I, I, I just finished my m div. Um, and so I, I've been in a long process of, of learning, um, and I'm, I'm done now with seminary as of about a month ago.
Um, and what am I learning? Man, that's a great question. People should always be learning. I'm all about learning. I feel like I've learned so much in the past few years. I, I feel like in many ways I'm a different person than I was a few years ago because I've learned so much. I, I think I'm, I'm learning to listen.
I'm learning more to listen. Um, you know, we're both, um, I, I'm, I, I guess I'm assuming you, you're that you're straight, but I think we're both straight white guys. Um, and yeah, so there you go. We're both straight white guys, which means, [01:08:00] um.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: someone accused me of being in a lavender marriage today on my wife's social media, so sure what to do with that.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I don't, I don't think I want to be friends with a striped white guy who doesn't occasionally get, uh, get called gay, I don't think
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: we can be friends
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: if the manos fear is not coming for you at any level, you know, if
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: I didn't even know what that meant. I was like, she's looking at me and I'm like, what's a lavender marriage? You know? And she's like, they're saying you're gay. And I was like, oh. Like, okay,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: that's amazing. Basically. Well, didn't you know that, um, emotional connection is gay and, um, I've been called gay. Well, for, for all kinds of things. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, Andrew Tate says that liking women is gay, so, you know, I, I don't
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: go off of things he says.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: for sure, for sure. I, I, I do think that, um. [01:09:00] The, the sort of aggressive masculine posture.
Um, you know, they love to, to label healthy I healthy masculinity is not being like as masculine as possible. I think it's embracing the wholeness of who you are, who you're created to be, and what's inside of you. And we all contain aspects and characteristics that some people might label feminine. And if we're rejecting those parts of ourselves, then we are in fact rejecting parts of ourself, um, in order to appear more masculine, which is actually making us less ourselves.
And so maybe that's what I'm learning, is learning to be my true self and embrace parts of myself that I was told I should reject in some way. Um, but I'm, uh, I, what I was saying before is I, I've been learning to listen. As a straight white guy, I can't change, um, who I am and who I've been born to be. And even the privilege that I've experienced and in evangelicalism and becoming an evangelical pastor, I'm even able to see that I was given platforms that weren't accessible to other people.
I was in a complementarian church where women couldn't even have access to [01:10:00] that, that particular area of leadership. Queer people certainly couldn't have access to it. Um, although minority racial minorities could technically have access to it, they typically only could if they performed whiteness in a particular way.
Right? And so I, um, I'm able to see that much more clearly now than I was before. And I, I wanna be somebody that's learning from and listening to the people that were excluded from the systems that, that, you know, elevated me previously. I think that's like where my growth can come from now. Um, and so I try to befriend those people and listen to them and try to be in mutual relationships with them where I'm not, um, I.
I'm not entering those to like, just yeah. To dehumanize in any particular way, but actually be friends with. Um, so some of my best friends now are, are queer people. Um, and I'm planning a conference right now called the Ember Gathering with, uh, my friend Tamis Spencer Helms, who's a, a, a black queer, non-binary, um, female presenting person.
Um, and just being in the planning room with, with them and, [01:11:00] um, just learning from the way that they see the world, which is so different than the way that I was socialized to see the world, but so important to me. Um, and so I think that's really, I, I, I think where I'm learning the most is in, in relationships that I was not, I wasn't in those kind of relationships when I was an evangelical pastor, you know?
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hmm.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Um, and then also learning to, to see new parts of myself as well that were, that were previously suppressed. Um, and so that's been a fun journey.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Nice. Love it. I can imagine where you go with this, but what's a problem you're trying to solve?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Mm-hmm.
Where do we begin? I think,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: them
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: well, there's a lot I could say, but the one that I'll just say is I did, uh, one of my hopes for my book, I, I think it would be really cool if evangelical Christianity as a whole was not so focused on the afterlife and that they began to see social justice, justice in this life, [01:12:00] equality in this life.
You know, it's so funny, like Charlie Kirk, like one of his big wars was against diversity, equity, and inclusion. DEI and the right, they hate DEI In many ways, that's like a summary of, of like the gospel according to Jesus. Like Jesus went to the people that did not have access to power that were excluded, that were not experiencing.
Equity that were not being included. And he went to those diverse people and he included them and he, he ate meals with them, and he established a new kind of community from the margins. That's literally what Jesus did. And so the very thing that like is the essence of the gospel is ignored completely for the favor of this afterlife focused religion of conforming to a particular, you know, dominant, uh, theology.
And so, yeah, I, I do think that helping, um, Christians see that hell doesn't need to be central to their spirituality. And that also, when Jesus was talking about hell, when he used the word gona, he was not speaking of the afterlife. He was talking about real world consequences. I think if I could get [01:13:00] pe people to believe that, I, I, that'd be really, really cool.
I would love, you know, if I was able to move the needle even a little bit on that issue. I think, you know, it's probably like a life well lived, I guess.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Nice. What's something you're excited about right now?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Bro, my book comes out next Tuesday. When does this, uh, episode drop? Uh, I, for
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: we're
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: when I forget?
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: tomorrow, which will be
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Oh, nice.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: 24th,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Okay. So yeah, that means, um, six days from when you're listening to this, if you're listening to it on the 24th, my book comes out. I'm really excited. Like I said, I'm pretty stressed. I told you that before the episode started.
Um, I'm just trying to like, push it as much as possible without being annoying about it. And so, but I'm excited, excited to see people reading it, excited to hear what's hitting people. Like. This has even been really fun for me. Hearing the quotes that jumped out to you, like no author loves anything more than like hearing that, oh, I wrote something that jumped out to you.
You know, like, that's just so fun. And so I'm excited that for more of that, um, in terms of like the [01:14:00] global space and the world as it is, like the timeline that we're a part of, there's not much exciting. It's all pretty bleak, if I'm honest.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: our, our corner of the multiverse.
Is there
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: No,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: you wanna add that we cannot close out this interview if you don't get this in? Is there anything else you're like, wait, let me just say this. I don't wanna miss anything.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: yeah, I, I mean, I feel like I, I got to talk about a lot of the themes from my book. Um, I, I. I, I think what I would say is, I'm assuming most of your listeners are probably pretty progressive in, in their faith at this point, and they're probably not stressed out over the, like hell right now, which is cool.
And I guess what I would say is I, I think I was not fully aware, well un until I began to really explore it, how much my very view of who God was, who I was, and who other people were, what it meant to be a Christian, what it meant to live in the world, what my mission was. All of that really [01:15:00] was twisted by, affected by my belief that unless people believe these.
Right. Christian doctrines, they were going to go to hell. And that binary thinking that there were two destinations, um, and that you were gonna go to heaven or hell, that really did a affect. All of those things. And I think as I unlove that it, this book that I wrote is not just about untangling the doctrine of hell, but it's, I talk a lot about the spirituality of hell.
In other words, how this caused me to view God, myself and other people. And I think a lot of us have to do that excavation work. And it's not, I, I think some of us have just kind of moved on and said, okay, I don't wanna think about that anyone. I don't wanna believe that anymore, and I'm moving on with my life.
But the reality is that. Many of us believed that for a long time. Many of us agreed with that belief. Um, you know, we, there's a, a belief is something, it's like a thought that you just agreed with. So like you heard, Hey, if you die today without believing in Jesus, and people who don't believe in Jesus, they're going to hell.
Many of us [01:16:00] heard that and we agreed with it for many, many years. And that bo deep grooves in our souls and shaped our very spirituality. And I do think that we need to unfuck our spirituality a little bit. So the book is called Hell Bent because I think a lot of us have been bent by this afterlife disposition, this hell punishment, disposition.
And uh, I think that's just has nothing to do with what Jesus was calling us to. And so I am hopeful that some people will like, yeah, they'll be a little triggered and they're gonna like revisit some childhood memories maybe they haven't thought about in a while. But hopefully on the other side of that, it draws them into a richer and fuller spirituality.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: That was so good. Okay, so if someone is resonating with this, they're like, I love this. I need more. How do they find you online? How do they get a copy of this book?
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I am on mostly Instagram, Brecker, R-E-C-K-E-R, Brecker. At GI almost get my email address, but Brecker is my Instagram at Brecker, [email protected], although that is also a G email address. [01:17:00] Um. That's where I mostly live. I post on there. Um, I also write on Substack Beloved with Brian Wrecker, where I post different meditations and some reflections on current events and that sort of thing.
And the book should be everywhere. Books are sold. You know, if you, I recommend getting at a local bookstore is always best and you can contact your local bookstore and ask them to order it, which is like the coolest thing you could possibly do for me. Like, if you really wanted to just like, absolutely blow me away, it's like, call your local bookstore and a order it through them.
So make sure that they stock, stock it and, and you order it from a local business. But you know, if, if money's tight, order it from your library, but uh, you know, you can put it on hold at your library and that's also really cool. Make sure that your, it makes sure that your library orders a copy. Um, it's also of course on Amazon and it's also on audio and digital.
I did record the audio myself, which I'm pretty excited about. I got pretty fired up a few times, so I think it'll be a pretty good audio experience. I prefer hardcover or because I, or or hard copy 'cause I like to underline and that sort of thing. But if you like audio, it should be a, i I [01:18:00] think it'll be a good audio.
I think I killed it.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: You're a,
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Sometimes you listen to an audio book and you're like, you're like, they didn't do a good job here. You know, like they should have, they should have hired somebody. But I feel like I did a good job. So you let me know if I did a good job.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: We'll be the judge of that, sir. Okay.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Absolutely.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: let the
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: How did you, the book you like read?
You read the book, what'd you think?
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: I thought so. Here's what's funny. I read, you know, I read Love Wins when it came out, and I wasn't. I wasn't in the universal camp at that point, and I wasn't convinced by it. And I'm a Rob Bell fan, I've had him on the podcast.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Oh cool.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: on Rob. I just didn't think that book was that compelling. Then I read Brad Jakks book, um, her Gates Will Never Be Shut, and that was
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: love that book.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: that nudged me. Then I read David Bentley Hart's book.
that All Shall Be Saved. And that was like, that tipped me over the edge, where then I'm like, I'm full on in this camp, so now I start from this place. Right. So it's
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: That's great.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: [01:19:00] to imagine when you've, when you've made the journey, it's hard to, like, how would this book
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Right,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: me, you know, if I was over
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Right,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Um, I think you lay it out so compellingly, so practically, right.
where it's not just, hey, let me, 'cause there are other books that I would say are more, like, more theological unpacking of the words and the original language, and that's not really you, you touch on. That's not your focus.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Yeah, I do that a little. I didn't wanna lose people in the weeds. I I did wanna get the bigger picture a little bit,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Yeah. And those exist and you, you, I think put yourself in a space that I haven't read a book on hell like this. And I think it's needed. And it's incredibly practical. And it's, it's, I would say you're the so what book of like, why does
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Mm.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: So what, well, I'm gonna show you why this matters.
Right? And then you, it's like so compelling when you read it of like, oh my gosh. Like don't wanna live in this world, you know, with this
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Right.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: the way this would cause me to treat people and treat myself and understand God. [01:20:00] And that's
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I love that.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: that. That's where your book shines.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: That's really cool. I, I, that's the book I wanted to write, so That's true. Those books. I love all those books. I love David Bentley, Hart's writing, but like, first of all, that man is inscrutable and second of all, like,
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Christian alive. Let's just
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: yo, he's great. I, I, I'll agree with that. I love him. Yeah. And I love that book.
And I, I do also even pull from his argument a little bit in my ar I have one chapter where I argue for universalism, and I pull from David Bentley Hart's argument a little bit, and I also pull from Brad Jakks book. I use that picture of the gates not being shut at the end of that chapter because I, I found that to be so beautiful the way that, uh, Brad lays that out.
And so I pulled from a lot of these. But like you said, for me, the focus was not, here's the exegetical argument. I did wanna give people the, so what the spirituality is. I, I, I'm a pastor, right? I am a theologian as well. I have an MDiv. I've studied, you know, I've taken Greek and Hebrew. That's not my focus, that's not my specialty.
I've, I've, I've [01:21:00] delved into it. But what I am as a pastor and I, I really wanna help people into a better spirituality. And so I'm hopeful that I've summarized some of the best. Academic arguments in very brief ways, in succinct ways that like hit home well, but then also give people, I think the why this matters and hopefully the presentation of like a better way.
And ultimately when you put these things side by side, like you said, it's like, I don't wanna live in that world. I wanna live in this world.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Totally.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: I think that's really, I, I love that. So that, that review means a lot. Thanks for the review.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Well, and again, I, I thought it was, I thought it was great. Your writing is really good. You're very compelling. I've followed you on social media for a while, so I get a bit of your personality, through the videos you make and, you're cranking out videos all the time, and so your personality comes out in the book, which is great and very charismatic.
People may like, I don't wanna read a book on hell. Like, that sounds heady and heavy and it's not, you take us along for a ride. And I mean, it, it can be, I think triggering depending on like what you were told, growing up or how you got into this toxic [01:22:00] relationship that you may be becoming aware of. But ultimately you're offering good news and that's the point of the gospel. And so anytime you can offer someone good news, it's a good day.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Hell yeah, brother.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Well, Brian, thank you so much. Not only for writing a kick ass book that is gonna help a lot of people, but Thanks for taking the time. I know you're in, uh, you're in the final stretch of book promo, so thanks for sitting down with us enjoying a nice couple glasses of, of, of a no
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: for giving me excuse to drink a bottle of wine at 4:00 PM
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Hey dude, uh, I totally appreciate it and uh, really, really appreciate you taking the time to be on the episode with us.
brian-recker_1_09-23-2025_160638: Thanks so much, Jeremy. It's been really fun.
jeremy_1_09-23-2025_130637: Alright, everybody, I'll put the links in the description, in the show notes. check out Brian's book. You can pre-order it right now. If you're watching this immediately or depending on when you watch it, it'll be out shortly. Uh, this is a book that I think is gonna [01:23:00] help a lot of people, so go check it out, support a great guy, and we'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray.
