The Fellowship of Guilt
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[00:00:00] Hi, this is Tammy from Rebuilding Faith Online Community. I joined the community because I learned that there are alternate and viable views on Christian theology and biblical interpretation views. That really resonated with me and made me realize that I was on a deconstruction journey. The best part about my experience in the community has been the book studies.
This is where we read through different books and have group conversations about what each of us is learning. Knowing that I am not alone in my spiritual journey gives me hope and comfort.
jeremy_1_10-01-2025_133209: Hello friends, and welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. And today we're gonna stir you up. We're gonna give you an ethical dilemma to explore, and this is something that if I were to pull everybody listening to this, I suspect we would get all sorts of different takeaways and responses to this [00:01:00] dilemma that I'm going to present today.
It's one that. Christians have seen from a variety of points of view. It's a dilemma that I think about from time to time, and I'm gonna weigh in on how I process it. But ultimately, I'd love to hear from you how you process it and what you do to take all of this away. Basically this dilemma stems from when the situation around us is difficult, is unprecedented, if you will.
If we have not seen something like this, and then we figure out what are we supposed to do in response, that's where you get into the dilemma that we're going to talk about today, and we're gonna see some famous people throughout church history and how they have made sense of this. So. This is episode 57, the Fellowship of Guilt.
[00:02:00] I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happen in this conversation right now, thousand years from now, people are gonna be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would've no idea.
Steven A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? You gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment, resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I mean the camp that God is at, universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You tell me to drink and I just show up.
I'll also say as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. [00:03:00] You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about. The beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the, the hospitality that this particular podcast provides folks like myself and I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that's very unique. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine early. The wine is, here we are. Here we are. [00:04:00] Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage. You really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_1_10-01-2025_133209: Let me begin by sharing what I'm drinking today. It is a lovely 2022 Mascota Vineyards, Cabernet Sauvignon from Mendoza. Argentina, and this is a deep red, beautiful color. And what I've enjoyed about it, I had a little bit of this last night in preparation for this episode, homework, if you will. Of course.
And it's a, it's a great mix of that herbaceous note that's got a little bit of a bite to it, but [00:05:00] then also some fruit notes, some kinda like raspberry jam to, to balance it out. And so sometimes with a cabernet you get a lot of that bite. And that's when I often say like, you need a good steak to pair it with.
This one is got, it's got the whole package by itself, so it could definitely hold up in a meal, but it could also just be a great sipper while you're talking about ethical dilemmas with some friends. So that's what we're doing today. We are exploring this. If you are able to enjoy this episode with your own glass of wine and cheers to you, cheers to another exploration.
Of how we make sense of, of this thing we called life and, and all of the many facets of it. So cheers to you, my friends.
Perfect.
All right, I'm ready to go. Hopefully you're ready to go as well. Today I wanna talk about a theologian named Dietrich Bonhoeffer. If you've studied [00:06:00] church history at all, you are likely familiar with this name in case you're not. Let me give you a quick refresher. Bonhoeffer was a theologian, he was a pastor, he was an author.
He was a leader in the church in Germany during the rise of the Nazis and of Hitler. And Bonhoeffer navigated, how do I be a German and also be a Christian? And he felt the tension there. And in his pursuit of Jesus, he found himself at odds. With his country and sadly with many of the Christians in his country.
And so if you know Bonhoeffer's story, he ended up losing his teaching position, lost his formal pastoral positions and kind of how to go underground and create more of an underground movement of discipleship and community, and did it in some really unique, interesting ways and wrote a bunch of his experience in [00:07:00] all of that.
At one point he got involved in an assassination attempt on Hitler's life. And this is interesting because if you know a lot of Bonhoeffer's theology, he was committed to the ways of non-violence. That was something he believed in. And so you think, well, how does someone who is committed to nonviolence get involved in an assassination plot against someone?
Right? Like that doesn't seem to make sense. And that's the dilemma I want us to look at today. And we're gonna look at how Bonhoeffer. Rationalize this in his own mind, which I've always found to be such an interesting way of looking at his scenario and how, how he handled it. Bonhoeffer would go on to be killed by the Germans for his involvement in this and the way that he stood up against.
The regime. And so that's why he largely is known to history now [00:08:00] as this iconic leader who was willing to stand up to the Nazis, to Hitler, to the German church that was in support of Hitler. And obviously if you're listening to this podcast, you're watching this, you hopefully are seeing some connections to today.
Lots of people who have studied Bonhoeffer are referencing Bonhoeffer's thoughts as we navigate our own. Cultural landscape. As much of the church in America today has given in to what I would consider to be fascism, to be an authoritarian style leadership, very similar to what Bonhoeffer dealt with in his day.
Now, Bonhoeffer once confided to a friend that in making his choice to join the German resistance to Hitler, that the ways that he was doing that he knew went against his own conscience. And convictions. So he didn't pretend like, Hey, this is totally in line with my theology. He knew that [00:09:00] what he was going to do to stand up to this was going to violate some sense of what he believed to be right, but here's what this gets interesting.
For Bonhoeffer, he made the decision to accept the responsibility of that choice, and in particular to accept the burden of guilt that this choice put upon him. This is where we get some really fascinating logic here. Bon Offerer wasn't looking for an ethical loophole. He wasn't looking for a way to rationalize you know, his making the best of, you know, two impossible situations.
He was fully aware of what he was doing, of the consequences of intentionally choosing what he believed to be sin. What he believed to be guilt, and he was doing it for a reason. And so I wanna read something that Bonhoeffer wrote. This comes from his book, ethics, and I, I love Bonhoeffer's writings.
There's [00:10:00] so much to unpack. Their ethics is a great one. If you're looking for some, some next steps after this podcast, you're like, Hey, I want to go dive deeper. Figure out what this guy was about. That would be a good one. There's lots of good books that he wrote and books about him, but I wanna read, it's a bit of a, a lengthy quote, not crazy, but.
I wanna read this logic as to how Bonhoeffer made sense of what he was doing to resist Hitler. And I want you to, to process his thinking here. Okay, so here's how Bonhoeffer explained what he was doing. He writes this. Jesus took upon himself the guilt of all men. And for that reason, every man who acts responsibly becomes guilty.
If any man tries to escape guilt in responsibility, he detaches himself from the ultimate reality of human existence. And what is more, he [00:11:00] cuts himself off from the redeeming mystery of Christ's bearing guilt without sin, and he has no share in the divine justification which lies upon this event. He sets his own personal innocence above his responsibility for men, and he is blind to the more irredeemable guilt, which he incurs precisely in this.
He is blind also to the fact that real innocence shows itself precisely in a man's entering into the fellowship of guilt. For the sake of other men through Jesus Christ, it becomes an essential part of responsible action that the man who is without sin loves selflessly, and for that reason incurs guilt.
Now that might be one you need to, to [00:12:00] play back a few times or to process or just to stare at maybe. And there's so much happening in this quote, but it's a fascinating, logical, ethical argument. Essentially. Bonhoeffer's point, if I were to paraphrase it, is he would say, yes, I am choosing guilt and I am losing innocence.
To, to do what I'm doing. But the reason he was pursuing guilt was on behalf of others. So he wasn't serving himself here, and because he was taking on guilt for the sake of others, he viewed this as. A deeper level of innocence that this is a deeper way of even aligning with Jesus. So he's again, making a parallel.
Jesus took our guilt. Bon Oliver says, this is what we do when we follow Jesus. We take on the guilt for the benefit. Of others. So again, what knows what's fascinating. He's not saying, Hey, what I'm about to [00:13:00] do is right. It's, it's good, it's noble. You know, God is, is totally on board with it. He's not making that argument.
He's saying, no, I'm guilty. I, I'm accepting the guilt of this decision, but the reason I'm going to be guilty is for the benefit of others. And because of that, that is actually a deeper way. Of following Jesus. Now, again, if you're understanding this, this ethical setup here, you can go, wow, that is a, that is an interesting way to process through.
How do we respond? How do we live out our faith? How do we imitate the example of Jesus? Now I want you to, to go with me to a, a moment. In 2016, I was in seminary getting my master's degree and I took a class all on Bonhoeffer, and this was a fascinating class. Absolutely loved it. Had no idea how applicable many of the [00:14:00] lessons of that class would prove to be.
As you recall, there was a lot going on in 2016. This was the rise of, of Trump, and this was when many in the church began to support him, began to endorse him. This is when all of that, you know, essentially kicked off and, and took place. And I remember in light of all of that and that this new shift, this new momentum, which now, you know, we're about 10 years later and we have seen how, how that has only grown, only.
Intensified. I remember wrestling through Bonhoeffer's position here, his, his ethical stance here. And in this one course, there was one class in particular that I'll never forget. The, the professor was, was explaining this logic of why Bonhoeffer chose to accept guilt, and then he read a quote from one of Bonhoeffer's biographers, and I couldn't find this quote.
I actually emailed the professor because I, I'm curious what this actual quote is, but I don't have it today. But [00:15:00] there was some quote from one of his biographers where the biographer was basically adding his 2 cents and saying yes. Of course was this was the right thing for Bonhoeffer to do. Of course assuming guilt for the sake of others is the right move.
Now, here's what I remember. We're sitting in this class and there's, I don't know, maybe 10 of us in this class. Okay, so these are, these are not huge courses. Again, this is seminary and we're, we're, we're all in this like line, and the professor is, is reading this quote that the biographer saying, of course this was the right thing.
And then he did something I'll never forget, he said, I'm curious, how many of you in this class agree with this idea, agree with Bonhoeffer, that this was the right. Course of action. Now, the way we were sitting that day, I was kind of second to last in the order in which he began to call on people. So he goes to, the first person goes, do you agree [00:16:00] that this was the right move?
And person said, yeah, I do. Goes to the next person. Do you agree? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes I do. On and on and on. And then he gets to me and I say, no, I don't think it was the right move. And he goes, okay. And he goes, last guy. And he goes, wait a minute, did you say no? And I'm like, yeah, I don't think this was right.
And that was the moment I realized, I'm not sure if anyone had ever a answered that question with a no, because he just kind of looked at me for a moment like, oh, I, I've, I've not heard this before. I mean, again, I don't know if I was the first one, but that's kind of the feeling I had there. And you know, he's staring at me and he even asked me to clarify.
He's like, so you don't agree? That, that Bonhoeffer doing what he did was the right move. And, and I said, no, I, I, I don't. And then he asked me, he goes, okay, well elaborate. Why don't you think that was the right move and. You know, I just began at the, [00:17:00] again, this was earlier on in my journey of making sense of some of these ideas.
I've, I've since had more time since then, but I remember saying, yeah, I, I think Bonhoeffer is responding to a ton of evil, and so I don't necessarily fault him, you know, that he, he's trying to figure out something to do, and I said I certainly applaud the fact that he's willing. To accept guilt on behalf of others.
I think all that's very noble, but I just said, I think this opens the door then to do whatever we feel like we gotta do and to get God's blessing on it. And I said, I think we're supposed to. Model the example of Jesus who wouldn't have got involved in an assassination attempt. And again, I'm not defending Hitler.
I, I just don't think that Christians should be involved in trying to end anybody's life. And so we get in this little dialogue in, in the, you know, the course where, you know, my professor kind of pushes back a little bit. He's like, well, you are not Jesus. And the the thought. Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty clear on that.
I don't think [00:18:00] anyone in this class is confused, but I'm trying to follow his example. And the example I see in Jesus is a nonviolent resistance. So how, how do I follow that example? And then also say I, I have free reign to assume the guilt to go beyond the example that I find. In Jesus, and I just said, I, I, I don't see that.
And, and I said, I, I suspect that, you know, if we could ask Bonhoeffer today and Bonhoeffer could look back and see how all of that played out. Maybe Bonoff would've changed his mind. Maybe he would see it differently today. Maybe he would not have argued that the way that he argued it then, because it probably felt as maybe you feel like this situation we're in is never gonna end.
You know, like the, the, this is, this has gotta be stopped somehow. How do we stop it? And it had gotten so bad in Germany that they're going, we, we this, we gotta take him out. Like that's the only way. To stop it. And even the pastors were getting involved in this. And so [00:19:00] again, I can empathize with this feeling of this is dark and heavy and this person is absolutely destroying lives, but we are going beyond the, the tools that I think God has given us.
And so I, I make this whole argument in this class and, then he, he gets to the last person and the last person goes, yeah. I you know, I, I, I don't. I, I don't have any issue with that. I think Bonhoeffer did the right thing. I forgot to mention there was one person who was kind of on the fence. When they get their answer, they're like, yeah, I think I agree, but I'm not sure.
After I was done, that person spoke up and said, Hey, I, I do want to clarify. I'm, I'm in support of Bonhoeffer. And so I, all I did in that, that little meeting was to turn the one neutral person against my own argument, and I remember so clearly sitting in that room thinking. Something is wrong with me.
Like that was my conclusion. Something is wrong with me [00:20:00] because everyone else in this room can see something that I don't seem able to see, right? Like I'm arguing something, which makes so much sense to me. But no one else. Here I is going with it. No one else here is resonating with it. And I remember that being one of the loneliest feelings that I had had.
Not lonely in the sense of like. I, I, you know, I have no one around me. I'm all alone loneliness. Sense of like, what, what I understand about God and and how I've experienced God is, is either not valid or is weird or something's broken. I mean, I re remember feeling like something is wrong with me. And I went home that night after that class, and I remember talking to my wife Michelle, and just feeling down, I mean, feeling like.
I, I don't know, something I, I, I'm, I'm broken. You know, something is not working well, and I, I don't understand [00:21:00] why I can't, I can't see it the way everyone else sees it. And I'll never forget the next day I got an email from the professor and the professor emailed me and said something to the effect of, Hey, I just wanted to thank you for your answer in class yesterday.
And he said, I don't normally get people that say no to that question. And I'm very grateful for how you articulated why you said no. And basically, you know, our class was better because you were able to offer that perspective, which. Meant the world to me. And you know, he didn't say you agreed with me, but it helped me not feel like I was completely crazy.
And, you know, this was like the opposite of gaslighting, right? Like, Hey, you, you have valid points, even if I don't agree with 'em. Like, you, you, you gave us something to, to think through in the class. And I, I think back to that moment. Of, of really a defining moment [00:22:00] for me and, and figuring out what does it mean to follow Jesus when things are really hard, when evil seems to be winning.
When, when we feel like we're way outnumbered by the forces that are working against beauty and, and truth. And so the way I would look at this today is that I would say this, number one, I totally resonate with Bonhoeffer's heart. I think he had a beautiful heart and did an amazing job navigating, again, one of the trickiest seasons in history of how do you live out your faith and for him, how do you be a German?
Living out your faith in that season? I think what Bonhoeffer got right is that yes, Jesus did assume our guilt. So there is a parallel there that I would absolutely agree with and say, yes, we should be willing to enter into guilt with someone else. The thing that I would still say Bonhoeffer [00:23:00] got wrong in this situation is that when Jesus assumed our guilt, it wasn't because Jesus took on his own course of sin, right?
So Jesus took on our sin. He didn't suddenly start doing all of our sins. And I think that's where Bonhoeffer's logic goes off the rails a little bit. 'cause what he's saying is not only we gonna enter into sin that we're also now going to do that sin. Ourselves and so, you know, take any other sin. It'd be like saying, Hey, I'm gonna take the sin of adultery from someone else by also committing adultery.
Like the moment I enter into that sin, right, even if I'm somehow doing it for the benefit, I'm also doing the sin. And so I think that's where I would say that's not what Jesus did. Jesus didn't sin. Jesus took on our sin and continued to be sinless in the way that he did it. And so I think there's something totally noble and heroic even about Bonhoeffer's willingness.
To enter into that, that state of guilt for [00:24:00] the benefit of others. I just think it opens the door then to say, well then we can do anything we need to do. We can assume any form of guilt for the sake of others. And if we get to that conclusion, as I understand it in this, in this season of my life, I think that is way too broad and I think what we're essentially doing.
Is saying the ends justify the means that if I'm gonna enter into, you know, guilt for the sake of a, a deeper innocence with God, then I can use any means necessary, and that is just not what I have found. In the gospel, the gospel is not an endorsement of any means necessary. It's very much the opposite, that when we trust the the ultimate ends to Jesus, we can just focus on being faithful with the means.
Acknowledging that when we're faithful with the means, it may never end up the way we want it to. It may never [00:25:00] have the happy ending. And I would even argue if you are committed to the way of non-violence, this is a kind of a pillar. You have to, to, to get behind where you have to acknowledge, I can live this way and there is zero guarantee that this is gonna play out well for me.
In fact, one of the, the thinkers that I would say offers us a lot in this category, someone who lived this out well, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. He has this quote that I think fits into this conversation nicely. He said immoral means cannot bring moral ends for the ends are pre-existent in the means. I'll read that again.
Immoral means cannot bring moral ends for the ends are pre-existent in the means. And this is such a fascinating concept because we learn to trust Jesus with the ends when we [00:26:00] submit to the means. And so again, I think if I were to reframe Bonhoeffer's argument here, he's saying, Hey, I enter into to guilt for the benefit of others. That's, that's the means. He's saying so that I develop a deeper level of innocence.
That's that's how I'm right with God. And that's the end. And I would just say that opens the door too wide. For my understanding of what it means to faithfully follow Jesus. And I think, again, I'm not staring at, you know, concentration camps. I'm not watching millions of people around me be murdered.
Bonhoeffer was, and so maybe, you know, if it gets that bad, you start throwing in the towel. And again, I can empathize with a situation, but with a bit of removal. Even though we seem to be going in a similar direction, I go, no, we still stand up to evil within every means we have available to us. So that's the ethical dilemma I give to you today.[00:27:00]
And I invite you to wrestle through it, and I wish I could ask each and every listener of the pod whether or not you agree with Bonhoeffer's decision to assume guilt for the benefit of others, or if you would be that lone voice like I was to say, you know what, I don't think this is okay. And the beauty as I have found is Christians see this.
From both points of view, and I have certainly met, I think more Christians that agree with Bonhoeffer than agree with me, but I'm okay being a bit of a contrarian. But as we look at the world around us, as we see what seems to be a lot of really evil things continuing to gain momentum, we see more and more people being made vulnerable.
Targeted. There's genocide happening. I mean, there's a lot going on in our world, and those of us who are following Jesus have to figure out what is our response to that? How do we try and [00:28:00] stop the evil that we see? I think it always is worth going back to what means are available to us? What has Jesus empowered us to do?
How do we use our voices, use our perspective, use whatever it is that we have. For the sake of others, and that is what Bonhoeffer was trying to do. I just think he did it in a way that may be a bit different than I think we could do it today. So there you go. That's the ethical dilemma. I'd love to hear from you or share it with someone else.
How do you process this dilemma? Which side do you land on? I'll see you next episode of Cabernet and Pray.
