A Beautiful Year (with Diana Butler Bass) | Ep. 59

November 05, 2025

What if beauty isn’t something we chase, but something that’s been waiting for us all along? In this episode of Cabernet & Pray, we sit down with author and theologian Diana Butler Bass to talk about what it means to truly live a beautiful year. We discuss how joy, grief, and gratitude can all coexist at the same table. We explore what happens when faith stops being a checklist and starts becoming an experience of wonder again.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/YAd73fCJCoU

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Links:

Diana's new book: https://amzn.to/3LmL6Er
Diana's Substack: https://dianabutlerbass.substack.com/

Episode Transcript

A Beautiful Year (with Diana Butler Bass) | Ep. 59
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[00:00:00] Hi, I'm Marvin from the Rebuilding Faith Online Community. I joined the community because I became disillusioned with the church and its members talking and acting nothing like the Christ they claim to follow. The best part about my experience in the community has been discovering that I'm not alone in the way I feel, and that others understand and feel the same way too.

Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. And today we've got an incredible guest. We've got Diana Butler Bass. She is an award-winning author of 11 books. She has a PhD from Duke University. She's a speaker, a preacher, and a trusted commentator on religion and contemporary spirituality.

She currently writes the Cottage, which is one of the most widely read Substack newsletters. And for those of you watching on video, she's got the cottage on her wine glass. If you notice that and if you're on audio, you can just know that detail. It's pretty cool. And [00:01:00] she's someone I have read her books for years now.

We've been going through her book, freeing Jesus in our online community, for those of you who are in that, and just an incredible thought leader, someone who brings out the beauty and the tradition of Christianity in ways that you often don't hear. And so I'm so excited for you to get to hear her perspective today.

This is episode 59, A beautiful year.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happen in this conversation right now, thousand years from now, people are gonna be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would've no idea.

Steven A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? You gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment, resistance to change [00:02:00] is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.

I mean the camp that God is at, universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You tell me to drink and I just show up.

I'll also say as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.

We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about. The beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the, the hospitality that this particular podcast provides folks like myself and I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.

It is fun, [00:03:00] and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that's very unique. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.

It's the peach wine early. The wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.

Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage. You really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Welcome to the podcast, Diana Butler Bass.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: [00:04:00] I hear you. Thanks for having me, Jeremy. I've never been on a wine and Pray podcast before, so I'm loving this.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Oh, we're gonna, we're gonna explore some new things today, and you have been a key voice for a lot of us for a long time, and so I'm very excited for this conversation. But before we dive in to all the good theology, we gotta talk about what we're drinking first. And so I'll begin, I'll share with some of my glass and then we'll see what you've got.

Today I am going to a, an old World Wine region. I've got a 2020 Famiglia TTI Barco. This is a Nelo grape. Um, this is just beautiful. I've been en it's morning as I'm recording this. So I don't normally drink in the morning unless I'm doing a podcast, but I do enough of these where it's, it's not that unusual, but this is a medium to full body, high tannin.

High acidity. And I'm loving this wine because it's got a great mix of, [00:05:00] of a variety of flavors. So I'm getting cherry and cranberry, some of those fruit notes, but then also like a leather note with it that adds a little bit more, uh, just mouthfeel to it and it's really fun. So I'm enjoying this. It's offering a lot.

What have you got in your glass today?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Well, I took you really seriously. And so I have a 2022, uh, Cabernet, uh, from Dow Vineyards in Central Coast of California. And I have to confess that I haven't had very much of it yet, but I, when I took my first taste, there was a kind of very fruity and very peppery sense to it, which was very nice. And, um, also for me, I spent significant part of my life in the central coast of California.

I know what these wines taste like and they bring back just this rush of memories.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I love that.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: And [00:06:00] so I feel a little bit like, wow, home. taste the earth of the central coast, um, in my glass.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Wow, that was incredible. What a great explanation for wine. So cheers to you, Diana. Cheers to all of our listeners if you are able to enjoy a, a glass.

with us and hopefully you're not driving, but if you are able to enjoy one, uh, cheers to you as well. Alright, Diana, this is our first time talking, but I just gotta tell you, I feel like we're kindred spirits already and I'll explain to you why we've been going through your book, freeing Jesus in our online community, and I think I first.

I'm trying to think. I think the first book I ever read of yours was grounded years ago. Loved it. Ended up creating a whole sermon series around it. 'cause I thought the ideas were so cool. Um, then recently I thought, hey, this would be, this freeing Jesus book would be really fun to go through with our online community.

So we've been doing that and, uh, love the way that you, [00:07:00] you invite people to experience Jesus in a variety of different roles in that book, but you have this line that is probably so like nerdy for most people and they just read over it and think like, I don't even know what she's talking about. This like, struck something deep in me and I realized like, I want to be friends with you.

So here's your line from the book, freeing Jesus that again is probably not one of your, your main ideas, but like is when I realized I really, I really resonated. You say this, I so wanted to be orthodox, but I secretly believed Augustine the villain and ous the hero. Now that is like a throwaway line for most people.

But let me tell you why that resonated with me. I remember when I was in seminary for my masters and we were doing a church history course, and they're going through these, you know, old school theologians that I hadn't heard of at that point. And one of the classes was on Pelagius. So they're, they're explaining [00:08:00] Pelagius.

And I remember thinking, I love this guy. Like, I love the way this guy thinks. And like, something inside of me was stirring. And I'm like, yes. Like, why have I never heard about this guy? You know? And so like the professors, you know, teaching about him, and then the professor gets this, this, you know, concluding thought.

And she goes, Yeah.

and then Palius was labeled a heretic and you know, was ostracized. And I don't remember if he was killed or whatever happened to him. And I remember like my heart just sunk when I was like, oh no, I like the heretics. You know? And it was this very lonely feeling. So when I got your this, I wanted to be Orthodox, but I never really liked Augustine.

I can't stand Augustine. I mean, the more I've studied and the more issues I have. So I don't know, is that a throwaway line or are we, are we kindred spirits here?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I think we're kindred spirits. Um, occasionally I will write a book in a book, uh, a subtweet something that's happened online. And for years over [00:09:00] on Twitter, I, I had this really big Twitter account. It's mostly, it is just locked now 'cause I can't stand going over there. But I had this

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Things have changed over there.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: they really have.

Um, and so, for years people were constantly attacking me because they called me pelagian and all this sort of stuff and that. I, I was really a heretic 'cause I didn't love Augustine. And I'm going, yeah, that's right. So, so please go ahead. Whatever. Burn me at stake. Um, and I put that in the book because that's the, that's the truth.

And it's often the truth of my theological sort of autobiography that I've liked the people who were the outsiders. I've

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: people who were asking questions. I've liked the people who, friend of mine says, Diana, none of your heroes died comfortably in their own beds.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Ooh, that's good.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah. They were all jailed or, uh, somehow dispatched otherwise by the church exiled.

[00:10:00] And, uh, yeah. So I, I like people like that. And that's okay. That's good.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Have you had anybody else make a comment about that line in that book or any, anything else similar to that? Do you get reactions to that?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Um. I don't think I have. I think you're the first person to ever really hold that one up, and that makes me like you.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: It's 'cause it struck something so deep within me that, that was my own journey there. I love it.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Well, I'm very glad

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I,

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: people have those kinds of moments and they go, yes, yes. This can be a friend of mine. And, uh, yeah. That's great. I, I'm happy for that too. That means you wouldn't have attacked me on Twitter.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I, I, I will certainly would not have, in fact, I remember in probably the same class or d different session of it. I remember coming to this conclusion, which was a, a bizarre conclusion where. It was so clear to me if I would've lived in, in the times that I was studying the church would've killed me. You know?

And it was this [00:11:00] realization of like, I would've been the one that would've been on the stake, or, you know, and it was just like a, a kind of a sobering reality of like, oh, the, the, the church really hasn't embraced a lot of these ideas and has had a very narrow understanding. And even today when people, you know, I, I get beat up in social media over orthodoxy and, you know, I also wanna tell people like orthodoxy is, is often decided by who wins, by how, you know, who has the majority, who has the influence and the power, not necessarily who has the most beautiful ideas.

And I think it's helpful to understand that when we're following Jesus, I'd rather go for beautiful ideas that, you know, stir something in me. And I go, holy cow, I have never seen anything like that.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah. Um, to me, I, I, will, there there are pieces of even some of the really famous and very Orthodox people that I think are beautiful and they, but they aren't generally held up. I wrote a book several [00:12:00] years ago, uh, before the ones that you mentioned. It was called A People's History of Christianity.

And in that book I talked about things that I actually liked, that Calvin had said. Calvin wrote beautifully about nature, and yet in the quest for sort of Calvinist orthodoxy that's often been a part of Calvin that has been completely dismissed, let's not talk about his ideas of nature and the beauties of nature and what we learned from the theater of spirit.

Um, but instead, let's talk about double predestination. So I think it's pretty easy for people to sort of zero in on two or three things and say, you have to believe this just like Augustine did. Or you have to believe this just like Luther said, or Lou or Calvin or what have you. And they're, they're always men and they're almost always white men.

Um, and so it's like you, these certain points. Of what the threat of the great tradition is. You know, if you don't believe those, you're out. And what's fascinating, of course, is that we've [00:13:00] missed, um, thousands and thousands and thousands, if not millions opportunities to hear the Christian story through other angles, that may have emerged as, very important and meaningful and necessary for telling the full story.

And so, as I was trained in history and taught that for years and taught historical theology, and I always would teach, uh, my students to, you know, look towards the edges, towards the, even the people you know are acceptable, towards the parts of them that are the lesser known narratives.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: And see what you see there.

And, and sometimes you see things that are bad that has sort of been hidden by church history. Like, um, Jonathan Edwards, I don't remember how old I was before I learned that he held slaves. Um, [00:14:00] I was well graduate school, um, by that point, and nobody ever really bothered to tell me that.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: And what kind of impact that might have on a particular theological tradition that's venerated right now in some circles.

And so, so you can sometimes, you sometimes learn bad things about a person that has a capacity to reinterpret the whole cannon of that person. Um, and sometimes you learn something good like Calvin on nature and, um, you think to yourself, gosh, nobody ever told me that Calvin liked birds that sing. That's kind of nice.

You know, I'll invite him over to sit in my garden

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah,

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: know?

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: he, he, he's maybe not, not all bad.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Right. Maybe he is not all bad. And so, so that's, I guess I, I'm all for theological complexity in the right ways. Um, and that of course does mean when you look at Palis, instead of looking at the things that Augustine said was wrong with Palis, which is the [00:15:00] main way we heard about Palis was only through the person who hated him the most.

Um, we should probably look to what we know or suspect that he really said himself.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: And there you see a different character emerge,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: It reminds me what you're saying. I remember when I.

learned about Martin Luther's antisemitism

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Right.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: and that was one of those, I had never been told that, you know, so I had, I had been told this, this, you know, here, here was Martin Luther, this great reformer and all the things that, you know, he did for the church.

And then I, again, I was probably in my late twenties before I ever came across like, holy cow, what, what about all this other stuff that he said that is incredibly problematic? Why, why are we not talking about that? And it is interesting what we, what we share of church history, what we don't share. And I, I just wish, and I, I would imagine you feel the same, that more people in churches were actually exposed to [00:16:00] Christian tradition because what they have pro, the ideas they have are, are, you know, only the ones that have been passed on.

Not all these other ones that you learn about. Once you start opening up these doors.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah. And I, I think in certain ways that's been the, the quest, um, the search of my whole career, or I dunno, which you wanna call it, vocation is probably a better word. Um, vocation of teaching and writing. Um. Is to find those unusual things to put forth the lesser known stories and to share those and, and to let people hear something that's surprising and more life-giving than they might have otherwise heard.

Because a lot of people, you know now, and I don't blame anybody, um, for this at all, is that they don't wanna have anything to do with the sort of Christianity that descends from Augustine through Calvin, through the, you know, sort of the, what I call the big C [00:17:00] Christianity, the Great command, uh, the Great Commission and, um, this kind of Christianity that's, that's all about control

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: um, Probably the biggest sea of all. Um, and that kind of Christianity that's, that's mutated in the United States into this thing we call Christian nationalism right now. And if that's the Christianity that you think is in the Bible, you're not reading the Bible very well. And you also don't know the tradition very well 'cause you're only looking at one side of it.

And it is there. The tradition has violence and corruption and complicity with empire and all those things. Uh, but it also has protest. And just for the record, um, like myself who grew up Methodist, people, I think like. Who grew up in your, your church too, we're Protestants and that means that protest [00:18:00] is in our first

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah, it's part of our history.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: That's right. It's like if you're angry at protestors right now, you better look in the mirror

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah. I love that.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: because that's, that's who Methodists and Baptists and free church people are, is that we are protesters, we're protesters against the powerful and we're protesters against the status quos of theology.

And um, if you're not out on the street making noises right now about the love of Jesus and acceptance of all people, you're probably not really following the tradition as much as you think you are.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: It's a good word. I like it. Okay, before we get into your latest book, there's a question I love to ask people to give our listeners a, a little bit of, of your journey in a, in a snapshot. And so I like to just pick the last 10 years. How has your faith changed in, in the last 10 years? So what is the, the more [00:19:00] recent journey been for you as you've been experiencing?

God.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I can answer that que, I don't think anybody's a asked me that question. And I love it because, um, I am way more relaxed about

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: to be a Christian than I ever have been before. And what I mean by that is I, I'm in my early sixties and I sort of figured out that life is hard it's really, really, really, really difficult to be, to find joy.

In this life and to be a good and loving person. And as I look around at my friends and people I work with and the world around me, I just have developed this great capacity to be far more to pathways of authenticity and joy wherever they manifest themselves. And so I'm really quite relaxed, uh, about all kinds of stuff that people get really uptight about.

Um, I'm, I'm in [00:20:00] a mode where it's like where you find God, what gives you joy and what makes you a more loving and decent human being. those are things that I think that Jesus cared about and I certainly care about them. And so, so I think that, there a word we can call that relaxed Christianity?

Not uptight Christianity.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I love that. Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Something. And, and so I, there are things I just don't all. My knickers in a twist about anymore.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: You know, it reminds me, I remember, so I came from a very traditional evangelical, more conservative space, and as I started reading people like you and books that were a little bit outside my tradition, which as you're saying, you know, started introducing ideas. This was in my twenties, you know, introducing ideas that I hadn't really heard, even in seminary.

I remember there was people around me started getting concerned, you know, and the, the feedback was, Hey, some of [00:21:00] these people, just so you know, like. They're considered heretics. And I remember being told that numerous times. And then oftentimes I would either read the book or in, in a number of situations, I got a chance to meet the person.

And I remember every time thinking, if that's what a heretic looks like, sign me up. Because they look like Jesus. They have a joy that looks like Jesus. You know? And it was like the demeanor that I was finding. Then I would go to the people who were not considered heretics and they looked angry and you know, bitter and just nasty.

And I remember thinking like if, if we took all the ideas off the table and just said, which person do you want to be more like which temperament? You know? And it was like, I don't wanna be the angry raffle red in the face Christian all the time. I wanna be the person that looks like Jesus and is forgiving people and is, has a kindness, you know?

And it wasn't in the people that I was told were the safe ones, but. I love your answer because your answer's basically saying like, yeah, I've just learned how to [00:22:00] settle into this space, and I think it is a direct result of a lot of the theology that you have fostered for your whole life.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Well, uh, it also comes from. that reading the Bible as much as I do, which is a kind of a crazy thing to say, because so many people, I could never read the Bible very well when I was an evangelical. Partly because there were expectations not just to read the Bible, but you had to get to the right conclusions about reading the Bible.

so I just never could get to the right conclusions. I, I was literally like always running off on these flights of imagination about what the stories meant differently, or asking questions that were not permitted, especially for a woman to ask. And um, so I just kind of gave up. It was like, oh, this is a hopeless task.

Why would anybody wanna read this book? It's all narrow and it's predetermined what you're gonna think about it. Um, but then to return to the Bible more, really more [00:23:00] around the time I was in my late forties and to spend more. And more reading time in it and devotional time in it, uh, that I do now and especially time and preparing sermons when I preach.

a deeply, that, that is a deep gift that the church gives to preach its preachers. The, the ability to spend that kind of time in, in the passages, um, and to, to have fun with scripture and to really let it sing to you. And I guess I've always been impressed by the fact that one of the critiques about Jesus is that he has all the wrong people to dinner all the time.

You know? And why, you know, he can't hang around with that guy. 'cause look at who he invites to his dinner table. He's friends with all tax collectors and sinners. And I realized, you know, kind of a nice dinner party. And

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: and that's what I wanted to do. I mean, I'd rather be having conversations with the tax collectors and the sinners the hyper, the hyper [00:24:00] orthodox.

I spent some significant time of my twenties and early thirties around when I didn't like myself, when I was trying to be like them. And, uh, I write about that in freeing Jesus. The fifth chapter is the chapter of my descent into hyper orthodoxy. And when I, I had every right opinion that needed to have in order to be accepted by the powers that be.

And, um, the further I went down that road, the more I realized that I was walking away from Jesus and that I was walking away from myself, and I was walking away from the people who loved me. And I looked at myself in the mirror one day and I said, I, I don't know what to do here I wind up being kind of this monstrous, narrow bigot.

Who isn't, and that's not who I am. I, I knew I wasn't that person, but I sure did a good, [00:25:00] I, I put on a good show of it. Um, either I walk away from this or this is just the path for the rest of my life. And I literally turned around and went back to where I'd gotten off track and started again, and lost a lot of friends.

Lost, uh, my first marriage, um, lost, uh, the regard of some people who had, uh, been good mentors to me and, uh, had to set out a different course. And so, so I, I really truly understand when that happens. And, um, my heart and my friendship is always extended to people who find themselves in similar positions.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Well, I'm glad you reading the Bible has led to that because a lot of people who read the Bible. Don't go that direction. So

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: really don't.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I don't necessarily just say, just read your Bible more and you'll automatically look more like Jesus. 'cause [00:26:00] unfortunately I have not found that to be the case. But alright, let's dive in to your book.

What I want to do, so the latest book's called A Beautiful Year, and I, I'll get to a couple quotes that I think summarize the, the premise of this. Well, I wanna read, I got a handful of quotes from here. And what I love to do on these is just read something that stood out to me and then let you react to it.

So these are your words, but they, they struck a chord with me. And then the fun part of getting to interview an author is you get to read a book and then experience it with the author and go, Hey, I really like this. Like, you know, ad lib on this. And so we'll see. We'll see what you think about these ideas.

So you have a great setup, I think, to what, what is this book about? You say this as an American, I live in a country that can't seem to decide what time it is. Do we live in a season of new freedoms? The extension of democracy and rights, increased dignity for all Americans, or do we live in a time like the end of the Roman Republic when [00:27:00] traditions and institutions of democracy were replaced by authoritarian rule?

Are we gaining or losing

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah, that's a good set of questions, isn't it?

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: that? I was like, yep, highlight you. That's how I feel.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah, I, I mean I think that that's why a lot of people feel lost right now. And that's what I hear all the time around me is that people say, I don't understand. I don't understand. We were going this way and now we've appeared to be going this way. What's happening here? And uh, so I try to provide, I don't know if I've tried to provide answers to the question.

I don't think I really do. 'cause I don't have any real answers to the question. But what I do try to provide is a regrounding of people, um, in, an alternative vision of time so that the questions can change. So instead of us creating kind of us versus them questions that sets [00:28:00] up more conflict and more hatred and more inability to, um, solve problems.

I'm trying to create a different framework so that people. goodwill, of which I do believe there still are many, um, can enter into a different kind of space. And so the space I offer up, uh, becomes this reintroduction or first time introduction, uh, with the idea of a Christian year and the Christian year being an anti imperial, anti militarist, um, and anti-capitalist, um, for time that emphasizes love, mercy, forgiveness, humility, justice, um, kindness and peace.

And, um, what does it mean, uh, to live If we really lived that, if we really lived that calendar, if we really lived [00:29:00] those stories, how would those stories change the question? Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: And what I love about that is I don't come from that tradition. So I never have gone through the lit liturgical year. I've always watched it from afar, you know, it's been something I've studied or dipped my toe in if I'm visiting a church for, you know, a weekend and they're going through it or something.

So this, this whole premise was very interesting to me to, to really orient myself in into a different rhythm. And you have this other quote that I thought was such a great, a great contrast of what our two choices are. You say, our secular calendar is a cycle of work and consumerism, nationalism and military prowess and status and political power.

Occasionally we get rest on a federal holiday for a sporting event or a vacation. And even just the way you painted that, I was like. Oh, that, that is our, you know what I mean? Like, I hadn't thought of the calendar the way you, you just succinctly kind of like this is what [00:30:00] that is. But then you say the liturgical calendar mostly ignores all this, it excuses wealth, privilege, violence and achievement.

Instead through its cycles, it tells a strangely compelling story of anticipation, peace and justice, enlightenment, failure and death, rebirth and living in love. Its foundation is a weekly day of rest, a Sabbath. And you, you wrote this, I, I think your, your hope would be that someone would read it a, a, a chapter a week or, uh, I don't refer to 'em as chapters, but a reading a week and you've kind of laid it out like that.

I didn't read that in preparation for this. I, I, I pounded through the book. But, uh, if, if someone was reading like that, how do you envision inviting them into this other kind of calendar that's very different than the schedule we've all got used to.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Well, I, I think that the way I put the book together, I hoped that it made sense in a, you know, a, a single or a few settings [00:31:00] that a person could read it like a book and go, oh, my gosh, there's an entirely different quilt of existence that is out here, and that I never knew that I could. You know, rest under, and that could be part of, um, this fabric of, of, of a story.

Um, so that's a possible way of reading it. Um, it's also possible to read it seasonally because I set it up along the, the seasons of the Christian year. So oftentimes, I mean, we have tons of beautiful books about spirituality of seasons uh, some of those books even take the Four Seasons themselves and look at all four in a single book.

And you, and you can read those seasonally or you could read them, you know, kind of together. But this is really structured weekly. It, so that's sort of the ultimate thing is it's almost like a weekly to have at your bedside. And you can pick this up at any time during the year and just say, oh, what was the reading this week?

What, did the, where did the [00:32:00] biblical reading take us? And, um, the, I think that for our purposes here, it's really helpful to know that that's how I wrote the book. I didn't sit down and write it in a single, you know, sort of writing period, a couple, six weeks or three months or what have you. I wrote this book over three years

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Oh.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: and what I was doing was following the liturgical calendar.

So I was following these seasons, and the seasons are Advent Christmas, epiphany Lent, and then I pull out, um, the, the week right before Easter, which is kind of almost like a season to itself, um, holy Week and then Easter and then, uh, Pentecost, which is the Pentecost is the longest season of the year. um, so what I was doing is that I had during pandemic started a, know, a newsletter on a platform that nobody had ever [00:33:00] heard of at the time, uh, Substack.

um, I just began. Writing in order to connect with my readers, because I couldn't go out and preach. I couldn't go out and do workshops. I couldn't go out and teach. So I was doing it from my, my, my office. Um, here, this the, the very room that I'm sitting in right now, and I decided to follow the seasons.

And then the seasons are accompanied by in more liberal and mainline churches like the Episcopal Church and the the Liberal Lutheran Church and the Big Presbyterian church and the Catholic church even. Um, they follow a thing called Electionary, which is a plate of readings is established years in advance that takes preachers, takes congregations through the Bible on a seasonal basis, and matches Bible stories to the [00:34:00] themes of the season.

those, the lectionary runs in a three year cycle. And, uh, the most commonly used one is something called the revised Common Lectionary. And it's easy to access. You can go and look up revised common lectionary, and there's a beautiful version of it that's hosted by Vanderbilt University. if you just go there, you can see what the readings are for every single week for the next three years.

um, so that's what I was doing during the Pandemic. I would go to the lectionary in a particular season and I would write a reflection for that week that were for, you know, for this group of people that had signed up for this crazy newsletter. I just started and, and lo and behold, that became the main focus of my newsletter.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: People, loved it. People were telling me all the time that they, that, that they were hearing me say things that they didn't hear in their own churches. People were saying that they'd never [00:35:00] thought about the Bible in the ways that I had suggested people. I had people writing to me saying, you gave me my faith back.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Wow.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: and I, I was stunned by the reaction. Um, and I mean, it caused the newsletter to grow like topsy, and it, it, you know, it, it became really well received, um, and widely read, on Substack. And I'm very, very, very grateful for that. Uh, but the real fun part of it is, is have created a community around these sort of alternate interpretations of scripture.

So, uh, so that's how the book was. It was, it was birthed through three years in conversation with my own readers as I struggled with their, with what they were struggling with, um, which were oftentimes concerns of. Not being able to go to church any longer, [00:36:00] being angry that the church wasn't being prophetic enough in difficult days.

A lot of the political and social changes, and I've long, long, long, long, long, uh, been an advocate and ally of the L-G-B-T-Q community. And so, and, and I am a feminist. And so, um, so a lot of my readings come out of engagement with those alternative voices as well. And I was learning just like so many other white Americans a ton about racism during that period.

And so think that new awareness of race also began to enter into my capacity of rereading scripture. So, so the book itself was written over a long period of time, which is why it can, I think, live as a single standing kind of book could enjoy on a, you know, just like any other book. Or it could be savored as a, as a guide, [00:37:00] uh, through about time through time.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah, and it definitely comes across in, in the way you write, where you can tell you're writing it in those, I didn't realize it was three years. I, I imagined you took a year and wrote it throughout a year. But that's, that's even, it's even cooler to imagine three years worth of the same times at, you know what I mean?

Of, of all that is kind of a, that's a cool way to read it. I, I would imagine a lot of the listeners are not familiar with Electionary as you've described it. Um, do you have like a, a snapshot who, who made this, who, who decided this is what the readings are, it's gonna be three years? When was this kind of decided, is there a agreement on it?

What could you speak to just kind of the history of that to, to someone that may not be as familiar with this idea of electionary.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I, I'm. Pretty certain I have to go and brush up on the history of it myself, but I'm pretty sure it came out of the, the National Council and the World Council of Churches. And the, the backbone of the [00:38:00] lectionary is, uh, like I said, it's a three year cycle. And so every year it emphasizes a different, one of the gospels, uh, Matthew, mark, or Luke as the major thrust of that year's telling of the Jesus story.

then, um, it reads John during the Special Seasons. And so John shows up a lot during Christmas and a lot during Easter. you, you get to go through the majority of all four of the gospels, but you, you do it in this really kind of interesting and unusual way. And you do it, like I said, it's, it's themed towards the particularities of where we are seasonally.

Um. so, so that's the backbone of it. And then what the, the other readings that are there, there's also a reading from the epistles. There's always a reading from the epistles, uh, that they feel like somehow [00:39:00] matches whatever the gospel reading is. There's a psalm and you, you go through the Psalms a lot, obviously, because there's only 30 some, you know, uh, or the every month you get 30 some of those.

And so it's like you just keep spinning through them. Um, and there aren't that many in the, in the whole book. So, so that's great. And you do get to reread several of the Psalms through the year in worship context, which is wonderful. You know, Psalm 23 shows up a lot in all kinds of different contexts, and I found that interesting through the years.

And then there's always a reading from the Hebrew Bible, um, that is paired with it as well. And, uh, those are often very interesting and I've learned how to preach a little bit better from

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: old, old Testament because of that. but that's what the lectionary is. And you would think, you know, that it, it's kind of a little boring or would get ritualistic.

Um. But I haven't, I I've, it stays fresh for me for a lot of different [00:40:00] reasons. And you know, it's not all that different in some ways from, you know, there's all those evangelical reading plans about how you read the Bible in a year or what have you. Um, but the way that this works is simply, you know, reading the gospels over and over and over again on a three year cycle.

So you really get the stories of Jesus. Anybody who thinks that in liberal churches you don't read the Bible, um, they might not read every single bit of stuff that is in the Old Testament. But honestly, any Mainliner who has ever been listening to the Lectionary read in church knows those stories. They become part.

Of the life of a person who is a serious, uh, um, member one of those, those congregations. So, it's, uh, you know, it's, it comes out of the more liberal Protestant tradition, but it's very ecumenical and it's, it's not just a North American thing is shared literally by churches around the world, and the Catholic church uses a version of [00:41:00] it.

So we're talking about the biggest, Christian body in the world uses a form of that lectionary some distinctive modifications that work with Catholic theology.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I think that that, that part is the coolest to me, is to imagine you syncing up with Christians around the world. Not this is what our community is doing, which, you know, has power too. But the idea of our community is syncing up with. Communities in our country, communities around the world, like this broader Christian movement that we're a part of, I think is a very cool idea.

And I think that's for a lot of people that may not be, you know, have my, that may have my experience where we didn't come from, the lectionary didn't come from that kind of a setting. Your book is maybe the, maybe the gateway drug into, you know, into something else of like, oh, this is kind of cool. A different way of, of experiencing the same, like you said, it's the, it's the same bible, it's the, you know, it's the same basic format.

It's just laid out in a, in a unique way [00:42:00] with a lot of other Christians. And I think it is a cool invitation into something bigger. And if nothing else, it's, it's a change of pace, you. know, to try it for three years And, see, see, see if you like it.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: and and it is really, uh, I, I think one of the things I loved about it most, um, at least initially is that the evangelical version of kind of, you know, bible reading by these sorts of programmatic structures, um, I mean, that's fine. It's, it's all good. Uh, but it's also highly individual.

And so you just pointed out what, what's different about the, the revised standard lectionary and there are some other lectionary which are gaining popularity around the globe as well. Um, but the, the thing that's really distinctive about it is it is communal and it's also worship based.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: it's not just that you're sitting there in the morning trying to sort of summon up, you know, oh gosh, I gotta get in the right mood for my Bible study.

Uh, but it's, it, it literally is, uh, [00:43:00] something that you read. In the context of worship in community every Sunday, and you have an awareness that other people around the world are reading the same thing.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah, I think, I think we need more in America. We need more of that idea of how, how do we think beyond ourselves And what's good for me? And if this can help aid in that, then let's, let's do it. Alright. I wanna look at a few.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: was gonna say real quickly, I love the fact that, um, got a lot of readers internationally because of that.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Oh, that's cool.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: so, you know, there's, I do write about lots of American social and political issues, um, but I'm always linking them up to these other stories, you know, and it's just, it's literally that, um, people who are my readers in Western Europe across the English speaking world, and some countries in Africa, certainly Australia and New Zealand, they're reading the same text.

[00:44:00] Every

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: That's cool.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: so I get this really great engagement from all these different perspectives and I love it and it teaches me about what's going on in other parts of the world as well.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah, I love that. I've got a few other quotes I,

wanna look at and, and have you react to. And this next one is just made me smile. You say, and looking back, I think that December 9th, 1965 may have been the day that I became a theologian. Now if you're listening to this and you're wondering, what on earth is she writing about?

That would be that trigger I would love for you to, I'm not gonna spoil it. What, what were you writing about? That was the trigger for the day you became a theologian.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I was watching the first ever broadcast of a Charlie Brown Christmas special

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I love that so much. That's such a great, great cartoon. and that was, that.

was the moment for you, you became a theologian.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I wondered about what the meaning of salvation was [00:45:00] when Linus got up on the stage and said, for unto you, is born this day a savior in the city of David, who is Christ the Lord? I thought, what the heck is that guy talking about? It sounded really cool though.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I wanted to know what he was talking about.

So yeah, that was, that was the day for me.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: In, in light of what we've seen in modern times of CBS, I find this very hard to believe that this was ever aired. And, uh, and you know, I, I came obviously, uh, um, a few years later than this, so I didn't, I, I remember my dad telling me.

about a similar thing, saying that was the first time, if I recall, what he had said to me is like, that was the first time he had heard the gospel.

And, you know, he was like, whoa, what is this? So I think, you know, this CBS cartoon, right? I think CBS was the network. That's a crazy, like, especially in light of all the Colbert stuff, you know, all the things we're seeing, like this was aired on TV [00:46:00] and It was.

a big deal for people who were watching it.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah, and I have recently learned that, and it was, this isn't in the essay, but I wish it could have been, um, scene almost got cut because there were people who thought it was too religious and

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Absolutely.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: that it'd be too controversial.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: would be right.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Apparently baby boomers across the country, country we're converting right there.

And then

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Oh man.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I was just a very young baby boomer. Just so your audience is perfectly clear,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah. Love it. You're very hip, baby boomer.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: well, I wouldn't wanna say that my daughter who's a Gen Z or she probably have a little extra comment on that regard, but, but I, I, you know, I, I, I, I don't embody some of the worst qualities of my

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: You, you certainly do not. No, but I think that's such like, and I read that and obviously that's, you know, that's not, wasn't the point of that whole chapter, but it was a really [00:47:00] personal note that you put in there that I thought was so cool and a reminder that, you know, sometimes we, we think, and I, I think those of us who are drawn to theology naturally get the criticism of others.

Like, spend your time in the real world. You know, like what? Get your head outta books. And, and I've always love, I just have loved these things and then I look at other people, I'm like, you don't, you know, I'll start telling 'em like, lemme tell you this idea I read in a book and I can like. I, I'm at lunch telling a friend and I can see it in their eyes, like, they don't care.

You know? Like, this is not, and it's like, all Right.

that's, let's just, let's talk about something else. But I love when we realize like, real life intersects these moments of our faith and these things as like, oh, I was watching that. And then that idea. And I just think it's a, it's a fun, good reminder, you know, for me and you, you referenced my all time favorite Christmas movie.

'cause you, you set up the original, you know, th the big three from the sixties, but then you talk about a Muppet Christmas Carol in 1992, which I will go down. Fighting is the [00:48:00] greatest Christmas movie ever made. We watch it every Christmas Eve, and I have, I've done this for decades, since I was a little kid.

Now we do it with our kids. But I love, it's like, that story is so moving, not just because it's some great moment of Hollywood, it's 'cause it taps into something, some, something deep, something beautiful inside of us, which I would say is like, it's a reminder of. Of what God is inviting us to experience in real life.

And so I love that you talk about these Christmas movies and again, this is where a lot of us, we get sentimental at Christmas time and uh, it's not quite Christmas time yet, but I, I just love It And I thought for you to kick off your theological journey, uh, in Charlie Brown was, was pretty great.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: It sounds like I had something in common with your dad.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

Yeah. And I just remember, I remember him saying that was a big deal for him. And again, I, I didn't watch it live on tv, but um, I can, I can look back now and go, that seems like a big deal, you know, to, especially with what I've [00:49:00] seen to, because that was aired on, you know, national tv. Like, wow, that, that's straight up the gospel.

You know, this, we're gonna talk about this little baby that changes everything. And I think it's cool. Alright, we'll stick on the Christmas theme for this next one, but obviously this is gonna take us into some modern times here. You write this and IIII just love this quote. What do we do when Herod is on the throne?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah, that's

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Be like the magi. Those ancient wise men do not obey in advance. Should, I just wanted to like circle, highlight, underline, discern deceit. Trust the truth. Be brave. Following a star means moving at night and sometimes the night will be very dark. Indeed. This is about Herod and this is not about Herod and man, those are some poetically beautiful words that speak to a heartbreak.

We [00:50:00] are witnessing right now. How, how would, how would you elaborate on that? For what, what we're witnessing around us?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Well, I, I hope that they do speak for themselves, and thank you for highlighting that. Um. There's a, that that essay in some ways was prompted by a song that is published in the form of the lyrics, in the poem in the front of the epiphany section. and it's by a, a friend of mine, uh, Chris, Chris Gundry.

Gundry Grundy, excuse me. It's hard to say. um, it's a, a song about taking them a different way home. Taking a different road home. And, um, when I first heard his song, wa I was just overwhelmed by how [00:51:00] vibrantly. The story of the wise man connects with this moment in American politics. And so the essay that I wrote was sort of an homage and an integration of the insights that I had when I was listening to his, his song.

and, uh, yeah, I, I, I have to go back and reread that part to myself most days, um, because the, night is very deep right now, and you do not know, none of us know what the end of the road is, and there's, there's literally only a star to follow.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I, I love though when we, when we take these moments. Out of, you know, this is, this is Bible Times and that was for them. And you take these ideas and you go, no. They were people navigating times like we're navigating. And they had to [00:52:00] figure out what does it mean to be faithful? What does it mean to follow God?

What does it, you know, and they figured it out in their time. And now that, you know, the baton passes to us and we've gotta figure out what does it look like for us to be faithful? What does it look like? You know? And the, the, again, there's so much in that one quote, which I feel like we could do an episode just on this quote, but, you know, the do not obey in advance.

What I have been watching is, is seems like everybody in power in all different aspects of power are all obeying in advance right now. And so the most recent thing I, I was reading about this week was, um. Apple had, there's some way that people were reporting ice agents of where they were, and Apple was, there was an app, or I don't remember all the details, but basically Apple removed it without ever, you know, they weren't sued, they weren't, it wasn't a big deal, but they just removed this.

And it struck me when I read this article, I was like, that is obeying [00:53:00] in advance. That is saying, Hey, I'm not gonna ruffle any feathers. We don't, you know, rather than saying what's the, what's the other way home that we can take Now again, you know, I'm not necessarily expecting Apple to lead a lead the way in that regard.

However, um, when we're watching that example all around us of, you know, the, the news outlets and the social media platforms, you know, and we're just watching everybody obeying in advance, I think. If, if we're not careful, then we think, well, a good Christian does the same thing and we obey in advance and we fall in line rather than realizing, no, we're invited into a much different story.

We, we are invited to follow the star, like you referenced here. Like, that's, that's the invitation for us, which means we don't follow, we don't obey in advance. We don't fall in line with everybody else. And that almost feels so, I don't know, unpatriotic to people now, or even un-Christian to a lot of, you know, people in this environment.

And yet you're, [00:54:00] you're inviting us back into to see how the deeper story connects with our moment today. And I, I hope more people, especially if they, if they read this throughout the year, as they lean into these different moments, these different seasons start to connect, oh, that is actually not so different than what I'm going through right now in my life.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah. And that story of, of Herod and the Wiseman is really chilling. If you go back and you read the whole thing, invites the Wiseman to come and like have a dinner at the palace,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: as they're on their journey. And you can just imagine, uh, what's going on. Herod's head, he's, he's, you know, he's buttering these guys up.

He's trying to get information out of them. He wants to, you know, sort of bribe them and get the stuff, get, get, find out where this, this king is who's gonna take over his throne. so, I mean, he just lies to their faces. He treats them like royalty, you know, and tries to just make them feel great. Like he's their buddy [00:55:00] and then he, he, tries to get the information outta him, you know, just, oh, tell me where, because I wanna go worship him

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Oh, what a good, what a great guy. Here it is. You know, he's, he's a real Christian, you know,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah. He's the real deal.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: is a real deal. He just wants to be like the wise men, so, you know. Sure, sure, sure. Herod, we will tell you. And then, um, you know, I, I'm not totally convinced that they ever really believed any of that, because these guys were clearly smart enough in advance that they were already, you know, pretty discerning.

could read the signs of the world around them. And so I'm not sure that all of that manipulation, that emotional thing, by getting invited to the White House, oh, I mean the Palace, um,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Freud and Flip.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: would've had any impact on them. Uh, but then of course, uh, God makes the point pretty clear by giving, sending this [00:56:00] dream and saying, don't, you know, pay no attention to the man who on the throne, instead, you know, do something different.

And, uh, they hear the dream clearly and they follow that. And so, one of the things I always wanted to sort of ask people who wanna obey in situations like this, because they've been reading Romans, Romans 13, you know, it's like every government has been given by God and your job is to be obedient. I always wanna say, well, hey, what about those wise men?

And what about King Herod? I mean, let, can you explain that on the basis of this obedience theology you have to government, because if the wise men would have obeyed Herod, what would've happened then? And God clearly told them, disobey Herod, you know? Yeah, sure. And, and I'm not even convinced that God thought that Herod was a legitimate governor

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: of ancient, uh, Judea, because literally that guy had [00:57:00] been put on his, his whole line had been put on the throne by Mark Anthony, the same Mark Anthony, who is in ancient Roman history, who is a friend of Julius Caesar's.

The only reason that guy was the king was because a Roman emperor basically put him up as a puppet king in order to control the Jews. And so not every government is legitimate. And you can even look at the Hebrew Bible and see that there are, there are governments of Israel itself that are illegitimate.

So, so to take that one passage in Romans and lift that up and say, oh yeah, you always have to obey the government. That is absolutely ridiculous because it's not even sensible within biblical interpretation. If the, the principle that the Bible can interpret itself. It doesn't stand up.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: It just doesn't stand up.

And so look, these stories about the people who, um, [00:58:00] can see through pretenses of power and can see through the manipulations of human politics, I think these are really valuable stories right now.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I, I absolutely agree. And it also made me, as you, you were talking, think of like the Hebrew midwives, you know, who didn't follow Pharaoh. And like, these are all, these are the stories that we have inherited, and yet somehow we've, we've neutered 'em and like, no, That's not what it means. And I almost wonder, it's like, as I read that story today, I go, is it, is it because the magi were foreigners that they were able to see through like, okay, this, this whole thing, you know, there's no way.

And is it just so much harder to see it when it's your own leadership? You know? And I, and I wonder like maybe that's. I don't know.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I love that. That would be a great sermon.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah. I'm ex that's what I wanna like, shake my fellow [00:59:00] Christians in America and go, why can you not see it? And they, they just can't. And you know, I'm at the point where it's like, I, I don't, I don't know, like, I don't know what could convince you or what could show you or what you would have to see at this point to be able to see things that, to me, are so blaringly obvious.

And yet, you know, you have these moments where, again, the, the magi don't seem endangered at any point of falling for this, you know, and you read it and you're like, yes, that was great. But there's not a lot of magi examples today that I'm seeing. It's a lot more of people going, oh, Herod invited me in. Do do, do you see what he fed me?

And let me tell you what he told me. And it's like, what?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: like when I saw the, the worship lineup for the Charlie Kirk Memorial and it was like big dog names Chris Tomlin and all, I mean all these people, like these are the, the worship leaders in the church. And I just went, we've all, we've all gone that way.

And I mean, not obviously we all [01:00:00] but the majority has, and you just go, I, I, I, so when I read this story of hair, I'm like, I want that, I want that story back.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah. You know, there's a, there's a piece that I, I don't write about, obviously in this book, 'cause this is a, just a bit more of a historical piece. The, my, my tradition as the, what's known as mainline Protestantism a huge, huge mistake in the 20th century by associating, associating itself too closely with, elite institutions and government and power.

And eventually that association believing ourselves to, in effect being the state church, that eventually almost destroyed of those churches. It wasn't the fact that we had liberal theology. It was the fact that we had swallowed the pills of power [01:01:00] and that we could never quite get over not being in charge.

And so I I, for years, I would show up at events. I, for, for much of my early career, I was working with, uh, mainline clergy to help them renew their congregations. And I would hear people say things like, oh gosh, if only. If only Reinhold ne ber were on the cover of Time Magazine, again, everything would be fixed.

Or they would moan and groan about the fact that their pastor, the Lutheran pastor, hadn't been invited to the city hall meeting to pray before the council, uh, vote. But instead some Pentecostal pastor had, and it was like, oh, you know, nobody pays any attention to us. We've, we have no voice in the public square.

And, and it was like, oh, what do you expect? You're Christians, you know, it's like, honestly, you look at most of the [01:02:00] tradition, the most, the, the powerful voices, the truest theologies come from the people who have no power. And just because you, my folks for a hundred years or so in American history, imbibed the power of the throne as it were.

It doesn't mean it was right,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: mean you necessarily even did a, a particularly good job with it. And that's, and fundamentalists and Pentecostals got really jealous about that. And then they wanted it. And once Mainliners kind of got pushed outta the picture and relegated to some sideline of American history, um, you know, evangelicals willingly went in and drank from that cup.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: And, and I, every mainliner in this country knows that's a mistake.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: At least the honest ones do. [01:03:00] Um, it will be the death of that form of the church. someday, a hundred years from now, you'll be looking back at that moment and saying, oh, that was the wrong thing to do and now we've gotta fix it because we ruined everything.

We ruined who we really were. We ruined our capacity to follow Jesus. We brainwashed our own people into thinking that the power of the state was God's power. And I mean, I tell you, it's a, it's a brutal and long recovery process from getting drunk on that kind of power. I, I call it the establishment hangover of mainline Protestantism as I drink my wine.

Um,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: but mainliners still think that, you know, part of the problem of America is we're not in charge anymore. And it's like, no, no, no, There's an entirely different political vision that is present in the gospels and we made a mistake. We chose the wrong road earlier and we're [01:04:00] busily trying to choose a better road now.

And, um, you know, evangelicals are now making that mistake. It

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Well since,

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: for the rest of us. But

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I mean since Constantine, we've been making that mistake.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: a long mistake.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: It is, it's the constantinian mistake. And one time evangelicals had no illusions about that being a mistake. Um, I remember being a teenager in evangelical churches and, uh, they would criticize, uh, being too close to power and they would criticize people whose agendas were more political than they were, um, spiritual.

And, um, that was part of their critique against the mainline, um, when I was much younger. And so there was a clarity there, especially with Baptists and I think, um, some forms of free church people they sold that their soul for Potage, uh, that was most, that mostly happened with Ronald Reagan in the 1980s.

So these are things that I write about on another basis, um, that aren't necessarily in a [01:05:00] beautiful year. Um, but these are the, the, the sort of shaping, um, of history and theology that have. Impacted what you see on the page in front of you in a book like a Beautiful Year. So that I have a very strong historical sense and I also have, I, I think that from the experience of living these decades and being a Christian, sort of both sides of the aisle, both mainline and evangelical, and then, so coming back to my mainline roots, has given me a, a different kind of perspective on scripture, on spirituality, on ritual and practice and on the relationship between religion and politics.

and so I'm always trying to turn that around and offer that up as, um, for friendship and, and guidance for anybody who might, uh, be looking for a different way.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Well, you, you certainly offer a lot in, in your writings for a lot of people to find hope and find something more, more beautiful, more truthful. And [01:06:00] that's why it's fun. I mean, we. It's fun that we can't even stay on one topic because you, you have, you have so many, you know, ways you can go with all these ideas.

Like, Well, I wasn't worried about that book, or that book or that, and it's like, that's what that just comes out in your writing. And I think, you know, if anybody hasn't read one of your books yet, here's my hearty endorsement. Go, go buy one of these books. Um, because it, it will invite you into things that you probably haven't heard before or haven't heard in this way.

And it's just a, it's an invitation to drink of a different cup, a different cup than the cup that is getting passed around in our culture. And yeah, I, think it's, it will lead to something much more beautiful

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Well,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: we're experiencing

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I really appreciate that. It's a funny thing to write a book called A Beautiful Year In this really hellish,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: in, in this time. Right now y'all,

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: All of

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: people be like, what is she talking about?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: right? of my friends are writing books on fascism and authoritarianism and Christian nationalism,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: end is near [01:07:00] Diana Bella Brass. It's beautiful, you know?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: It's a beautiful year

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Oh, that's great.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: and there are flowers on the,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: you know, maybe we all need to stop and spend some time in a garden.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Well, I, the, one of the encouragement, because I, I get a lot of people messaging me and they're, they're, they feel the heaviness, they feel the weight, they, you know, they feel the despair. And it's like, do you have any, any encouragement? And one of the, the go-to encouragements I give people is each day focus on, on creating something beautiful.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: when the world is ugly, uh, you wanna throw in the towel, you wanna just say, this is the way it is. But as believers, we're invited to bring heaven to earth, bring a little bit of beauty each and every day. And if all of us did that, if we just brought a little bit of bee, a little bit of beauty each and every day, I think that's a snowball.

And that creates momentum. That creates something, and that gives Jesus a chance, you know, to partner with us in. Unmaking the things that are and making new [01:08:00] things and your writing certainly do that. And I, I'm very excited for people to get to read this throughout the year, to engage with these ideas in real time as you wrote them in real time.

I mean, I just think that's such a cool premise and it'll be fun to watch this play out as people have a chance, you know? 'cause again, it'll, it'll take a year from the release for this to, to really play out. But it'll be cool to see, see all the ripple effects of that.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah, I'm really, I'm really looking forward to that. It's a, it's really a pleasure to share it in this format because it's one thing to send out a newsletter and have people respond and then it is kind of another thing to gather it together and put a cover around it and say, um, you know, keep this by your bedside.

And to have that tactile experience of a book and going back and looking at the words on a page. Um, and so, uh, there is a sort of fundamental beauty. In book reading that we forget about, I think sometimes in our age of quickness on [01:09:00] the internet. And, um, I hope that will, you know, both find the words I put on the internet.

Um, life giving, but particularly this project to feel a sense of, of beauty, um, with you. I, I think is a really significant way of, you know, I don't, I don't know if I wanna say fighting back, responding with a capacity of grace,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: in these really, really, I mean, it, things are truly frightening and people are rightly worried and fearful.

And so I, uh, we all need to find way of being our best selves in the middle of all this. 'cause that's one of the things that's gonna make a difference too.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah. I love that. Alright, we're gonna wrap this up. I have some questions that I like to ask each guest, and then we get to [01:10:00] compare your answers to everybody else's and, uh, we'll see where you take it. So the first one's a wine question. Go anywhere with this. You want, if I were to ask you. Y you, you may not be a super wino, but if, if, if you can think of one memory that you think that was the best glass of wine I ever had in my life, is there a, a, a story that comes to mind?

Is it a bottle? Is it a location? Is it who you were with? Does, does any memory stir up? If I say, can you just recall to me like that was the greatest glass of wine I ever had? What comes to your mind?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: What comes to mind instantly was the year I got fired from teaching at an evangelical college I was finding. Myself differently in the world. And a friend of mine took me to the Santa Barbara Wine Festival, which that particular time was held at the Santa Barbara Museum of Natural History, which is this [01:11:00] beautiful museum under live oak trees in a pretty rural part of the, at the edge of the city of Santa Barbara.

And under these oak trees, there were all these tables set up and there were vin vintners from all over the county, um, serving up their wines. And there was music being played, and there were, the weather was perfect and there was just, it was just complete and utter sensual, joy of nature, joy of the grape, and the whole sense of a different kind of community.

up to this one table and it was, uh. I, I don't remember the vineyard, but I would be able to recall it if I kind of thought about it long enough and saw a map of the, the vineyards in Santa Barbara County, but they were serving a chardonnay and I, I took a taste of it. It [01:12:00] was a reserve Chardonnay, it was an absolute revelation of what wine could be.

It was, it was the best sip of wine I ever had in my my life. I bought a bottle of it, and it was very expensive and I didn't have a whole lot of money at that time 'cause I was out of a job. took it to an Easter dinner, uh, later on with a friend, with some friends of mine who loved wine. And they opened the bottle.

And the, the, the husband who was a real gourmand in this way, he smelled the cork. And then he took a taste and he said, this is the very best wine I've ever had. Very best chardonnay I've ever had. He said, how in the world did you pick it? And I, I picked it in a moment of such loss and sorrow and feeling like I was never going to have anything ever to say again in the world.

And that I didn't know what my life [01:13:00] was gonna be in the future. I had picked that wine and tasted that wine at what was the lowest part of my life, and yet for some reason, that sip of wine became the opening to what? be in the future, that life would be joyful and sweet.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: That is a heck of a story. What an answer to that question, Diana.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: You asked.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Huh?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: That's

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: gotten some good answers to that one. That one was, that was really good. Uh, I like that answer a lot. Okay. I'm, I'm excited for your answer to this one. Which member of church history would you trust to pick a bottle of wine for you?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Oh.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: And who would you not trust and why

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Oh my gosh. I don't think I would trust Martin Luther. 'cause he is so much more of a beer guy

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: he comes [01:14:00] up more than anybody on this answer. Okay. So you go Martin Luther's your No.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: yeah, he would be my no. Who would be my, yes. Uh, this is that. That one's a little tougher. I think for some reason Hildegard of Bing is coming to mind.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Okay.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Hildegard of binging, she loved nature, she gardens. She could do anything. She was kind of a, you know, Renaissance woman. I think I would trust her to pick a bottle of wine.

And she lived in the Rhine Valley, so

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: There you go.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: probably have a better sense of it.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: All right. I like It, What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: It, things did I used to believe that I was wrong about? Oh, okay. The number one thing, um, is that I was once the teenage Republican of the year for the state of Arizona,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: The wait, the what? [01:15:00] Teenage Republican.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I was the teenage Republican of the year in

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I didn't know that was a thing.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: in 1976. For the state of Arizona, and I have a personal letter from Barry Goldwater congratulating me on my ideological purity and my commitment to the Republican party.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: That is amazing.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: That one

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Wow.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I've had, uh, quite a political journey. definitely one thing that I,

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: I live in Arizona and I didn't even know that was a thing.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: oh my gosh. Oh, well there you have it. What a connection that we have there. Yeah.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I was actually the, um, president of the state, um, teenage republican group, which encompassed all the, the, the high school chapters of the teenage Republicans.

And that was in 1976. And I worked for the, the campaign that year against Jimmy Carter much to my despair. [01:16:00] And, um, then, uh, yeah, was honored for that work by Barry Goldwater.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: What would you say to that version of you?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I would say, oh, Diana, you've always been so idealistic and, and, and that's a good thing, but be careful where you put the idealism sometimes.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Yeah, I love that.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I I do love that Diana, she was very idealistic. I still am that way.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Oh my gosh. It, the, the complete corruption of it by, um, current political trends. And it doesn't mean that Christianity can never be political. I do think that Christianity is always sort of at its heart, political, it says something about the polls, about the way we're supposed to live in community.

So I don't think it's an apolitical thing. [01:17:00] but when it is threaded in with. Pyramid shape, structures of power and hierarchy in which certain groups are privileged and other groups are outcast, then it always winds up being corrupted.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: And that's, that's a problem. And it is a real problem that people are falling in love with hierarchy all over again.

For some reason, in this age, when it has hierarchy has proved itself through history and through the Bible. Look at it, every time a pyramid shaped structure of power shows up, it's always a disaster in the Bible. And so it's like, it's not like we don't know that kings are bad.

We know this. We, this

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: We still want 'em though.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I know it is one of the most proved facts of human history and civilization. And yet, no, no. Let's, let's, let's crown the current party, Gaia King. And it's like, are you crazy? [01:18:00] Literally have you, have you ever stopped and read really one moment of, of history and seen that that's a bad idea.

And, but, and Christianity has loved supporting that, uh, for some, some really unfathomable I reason and, and it's always been a.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: You know what though? I find myself talking a lot about Bonhoeffer these days and a lot of parallels and a lot of, you know, what, what was he working through? What was going on there? And people who know that history cannot it. It's like they can't see like, well, why this is different than that? You know?

And I look at it and I just go. I'm, I'm perplexed by this, and I had someone, the other day, I had posted something about Bon Hoffer. I remember what, what it was, and someone said, I wonder what Bonhoeffer would think about what's going on right now in America. And I said, my guess is Bonhoeffer would be like, really, you guys got back into this mess this fast?

Like, I think he'd probably be shocked. Like, [01:19:00] you, you didn't learn anything, you know, from like what played out in Germany, like you are back at this within a.

couple generations. I mean, like that to me. But yes, I, sorry, I just, I, I, I, I, I can't understand this stuff.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah, I, I was actually in Europe, uh, a couple times this, this past year. And, uh, there was this one trip, part of the trip. I was talking to these two guys. Uh, one was from South Africa, the other one was from, um, Basque Region of Spain. they were asking me a lot of questions about American politics. And the fellow from South Africa finally just looked at me and he said, so you all fought the Nazis and now you are the Nazis.

And I went, I

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Basically sums it up. Yeah.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: I went, I'm so sorry. I said, really? I didn't do this? It's not my fault. I don't understand it either, but really having some guy who's in his like late twenties on [01:20:00] a street in Europe, just saying, so you guys fought the Nazis and now you are the Nazis. That's the impression the Europeans have all of us right now.

It, it's like, that is not not good.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Well, and rightly so. I mean, he's calling out the obvious.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Yeah. He was, he was a really smart guy, and I was just going, oh, this is so tragic. So, and

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: you know, that's, yeah. So I, I get it.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: It's why, it's why we drink Diana. It's why we drink good wine. All right. What's something blowing your mind right now? What are you learning?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Oh, oh, oh, that's an interesting question. Mm.

I, I, I've really got my mind blown by ai.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Hmm.

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: And it's easy to fear new technologies. And I think that, you know, there's plenty of reason to be afraid of ai. Um, [01:21:00] but I also think about new technologies in world history have had bad results, but they've also had some extraordinary ones. And, uh, of mine who is, who, who's theologian and trained in science, teaches at, um, uh, Villanova.

Uh, she's a nun. Um, IA Delio is her name, and she's very well to different people in the Vatican. And, and, and, uh, she's regarded highly, she's very enthusiastic about ai and. Artificial intelligence as an expression of the image of God and how we, the, we humans have invented this thing. And so what will, what will it aid in the future?

How can we bring it to [01:22:00] its best conclusions? so I think that's, that's kind of, uh, got me, uh, thinking. So, so I would say that my mind isn't like, you know, blown in the sense of an instant revelation, but it has me pondering, uh, to move past just the presentations of this technology in the media and ask some deeper questions of it.

jeremy_1_10-08-2025_100420: Well, hey everybody, at this point in the episode, for some reason my camera and my audio stopped recording, so I've never had that happen before. It kept recording for Diana. So what I'm gonna do for these last few questions I'm gonna add in the question. I'll just read it. You can see her response. I'll cut out any of the dialogue that we had about it, but at least you get the essence of what she said.

And this one will end a little bit more abruptly than most of our other episodes. So here's the end of it.

What's a problem you are [01:23:00] trying to solve?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Uh, main problem that I'm trying to solve, oh, living forever. Since I'm in my sixties, I'm just like going, oh my gosh, I've only got a couple decades left, and it's really weird and different, being a little older. And so that's okay. Try not to think of it as a problem to be solved, but as a gift to experience.

That's kinda where I'm with that. It's, it's a weird, it's a weird moment in one's life cycle, and so I think I, I guess I'm trying to de problemize aging as a problem and really enjoy my life in a deeply problematic moment in history.

What are you excited about right now?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Oh gosh.

I am so excited about my, my daughter being in law school. She is an amazing human [01:24:00] being. I admire her so much and I, I just always am blown, my mind was blown that I have such a cool daughter. And, um, so she went off to law school and I said as she was leaving, well honey, I hope that by the time you graduate, there's still law.

. She looks at me and she said, mom, you don't understand. And I said, what do you mean? I don't understand? She said, when we all get out, we're going to rewrite the things that you all messed up. And I went, whoa, that's optimistic. And so I think I'm really excited about that. I'm excited about the fact that, um, you know, stories don't end when generations move to the sidelines or when they die, but instead, new generations of really interesting and wonderful people come to the fore.

And that, [01:25:00] and that the dreams that they bring and the gifts and the enthusiasms and the passions for the future that they bear are life giving. And I, I get sad when people who are my age, um, only look out and see despair and don't see the enthusiasm and the excitement and the possibility that rests, um, with youngest, uh, adults in the world right now.

Is there anything you want to add that I haven't already asked you about?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: Oh my gosh, you've asked such great questions. I really can't think of anything else. And I even told you that I was teenage Republican of the year in 1976 for the state of Arizona. What else do you want?

Well, anyone can change.

Oh my gosh. Well, you know, I, I think that maybe that's the thing to add is that life is a story we're always writing and you know, I, I, I bring [01:26:00] that approach to, uh, all of my work. As a historian, as a sort of cultural critic, and also as a person who, who loves the tradition, who actually I'm happy. I'm, I'm glad I'm a Christian, and that's, I write a book called A Beautiful Year, and I say I'm glad I'm a Christian.

So I am such a contrarian and, um, and yet I, I am a contrarian because I'm always on a quest. I'm always on a quest to understand more deeply and see more, see, see further. And um, I think, uh, also there is this kind of innate quest that has been harder for me, I think, than some people. And that is to find joy and gratitude in every single day.

And I don't do that naturally, but I am learning more and more, um, to live by those things. [01:27:00] As that star that takes me down a different road. So, so yeah. So I would e or I would really encourage people right now to not get caught up completely in the despair and the, the depression of the moment. And wherever you are, wherever you are on this pathway, it is okay because you're going to be somewhere different

probably tomorrow. And, and so there, there should be no judgment of the road you are on and I just encourage people to be open to where the road might be. So if the right stars are leading you, you're going to get to someplace that's surprising and wonderful and, um, will change you. It might actually change the world.

How can people find you online?

diana-butler-bass--she-her-_1_10-08-2025_130420: [01:28:00] Well, the best possible way is to sign up for my Substack newsletter. It's called The Cottage. And you know, just Google it or go to my website, which is just my name, Diana Butler bass.com, and you sign up that way. And, um, then you get to hear from me once or twice a week. Last night, I, I sent out a emergency Substack, uh, at 11 o'clock at night Eastern Time.

And it was about, uh, the guy in the chicken suit at the protest in Portland, Oregon, because I loved the chicken. So, and I, and I just wanted to hold up to people, the power of humor in protest and, uh, that the good folks out there in Portland who are, you know. Uh, they're is weird, maybe even weirder than the people in Austin.

Uh, dressing like frogs, unicorns and chickens, when the National Guard is coming down in your back is actually a really good idea.

Yeah, well, Christy Nome showed, showed up. I don't know if you saw that. She took a video crew up to the [01:29:00] top of the, the ice building and you know, wanted the crew to survey the scene where all the violence has been and it was completely empty. So yeah, it was a few protestors holding up upside down American flags.

And then the guy in the chicken suit and somebody in her team actually had the guts to ask her, well, what do you think of the guy in the chicken suit? And she just said, I didn't see him. I was like, oh yeah. Right. I thought of Scarlet O'Hara in an old line and gone with the wind who said, you are such a cool liar.

Melly Wilkes. That's what I was thinking. You are such a cool liar. Christy Nome.

So, so yeah. I don't know what got me to the chicken soup, but there we have it. So I write about all kinds of things from chicken sos to Christian nationalism to the Bible every Sunday. And um, yeah, the, the Bible stuff always surprises people as much as the [01:30:00] chicken. So post to.

Well thank you and thanks for encouraging me to do a little day drinking.

A Beautiful Year (with Diana Butler Bass) | Ep. 59

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