The Root and the Fruit (with David Hayward) | Ep. 61
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[00:00:00] Hi, this is Heather from the Rebuilding Faith Online Community. I joined the community because I was drawn to a space where I could continue to grow in my faith, but in a different way. I felt like I no longer belonged in my church home because I didn't adhere to the typical beliefs I had been raised with.
I no longer could fit in the pew at my church while knowing my vay son was not accepted by the Christians with whom I worshiped. The best part about my experience in the community has been feeling that I'm not alone in my faith rebuilding journey. I'm learning so much through amazing podcast, belonged book studies and lesson.
I love the community and the content and comments shared. I'm thankful.
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray. Where we sip the wine and we stir the faith.
And today we've got an incredible guest. We've got David Hayward. You may not recognize that name, but he's better known as the Naked pastor, and we get [00:01:00] into why he's referred as that he lives in St. John New Brunswick, Canada.
So we're going to to cross the border for this, this episode with his wife Lisa. They have three grown children. He has a background in theology and years of experience in ministry, but David now focuses on writing art. And storytelling through his cartoons, his art, his books, and his teaching. He inspires curiosity, kindness, and community.
He believes in the power of stories to encourage young readers to think for themselves, embrace their uniqueness, and treat others with love and respect. His work is filled with warmth, humor, and a deep appreciation for the wonder of life. And the thing that you'll notice in this episode is that if you have taken any step forward into reimagining your faith, into moving beyond what was given to you, even if you don't consider it deconstruction, if you [00:02:00] just say, Hey, I'm, I'm trying to grow, I'm trying to, to move beyond, you know, what, what I was handed.
Okay. David is a model of someone who has, has lived this, who has done it. And I love the transparency in this conversation. I love the honesty, the vulnerability that he shares this, and especially at the end, we get into some, some very personal aspects of what this journey looks like for both of us. And so I hope this is an encouragement to you wherever you're at, in your own journey with God as well.
This is episode 61, the root and the fruit.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would've no idea. Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.
[00:03:00] Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at Universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
How if I get a little loopy. It's your follow up. You told me to drink it. I just show up. I'll also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way You're doing it in the. Beautiful positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig [00:04:00] into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that. Very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.
You had me with herbaceous notes. I want you to know I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy, by the way, drinking this peanut regio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. It makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast [00:05:00] throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Well, I am here today with the Naked Pastor, and for those of you who are only listening to this on audio, yes, he is wearing clothes. Uh, need, need, not be afraid. But I wanna welcome to the podcast David Hayward.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Hey, thank you. Good to be here, Jeremy.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: We are, we're gonna have fun today. I'm looking forward to this one and been following David's work for a while, and so I don't know where this conversation's gonna go, but
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Me
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: it's gonna, it's gonna be fun and, and we're gonna drink wine while we do it, David, so that's gonna make it way better.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Yes
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: I'll explain what I'm drinking and we'll see what you've got in your glass today.
I've got a fun mix. This is called Red Schooner Voyage 12. So this is a Malbec from Argentina.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: in California,
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Oh.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: is kind of a blending of two worlds and [00:06:00] Argentina. So it's actually, this would be considered an Argentinian Malbec because you always go where the grapes are, not where it's made. Um, and Argentina creates a higher elevation with Malbec, so it's got more acidity.
More of the tannins. I'm getting just beautiful notes on this blueberry, red plum, floral notes. It's an okay drinker because of our time differences between David and I. I'm, I'm pulling a 10:00 AM drink today, so this is, this is my commitment to the craft friends and for you listening on this episode. So that's what I'm drinking.
I'm enjoying it. David, what do you got in your glass?
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: You know what? I have an issue with that. Uh, you know, somebody says, oh, it's 5:00 PM somewhere, but. you know, uh, sometimes when we go out for breakfast or brunch or whatever to, uh, one of our favorite bars here, they have a nice brunch. I'll order an IPA and, and meanwhile they might have ordered a Breakfast Caesar or a mimosa and they, they think I'm weird because I ordered a beer. It's just, you know,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: It is very cultural. Yeah.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: [00:07:00] totally. Very cultural. So what I'm drink, and you can't go wrong with a Malbec. can't go wrong with a Malbec.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: You a Malbec fan.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: That's my, you know, I stand by that.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Okay.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: wrong with a Malbec. It could be a $12 bottle, it could be a $40 bottle, it could be a $96 bottle. You can't go wrong with Malbec. Anyway, this is what I'm drinking right now. It's called Caly, uh, Niro Diavalo from Sicily. Um, and it's.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: That label is cool looking.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: worked in, uh, who works in the liquor store here. Our, all our liquor stores are government owned, right? So, uh, uh, our liquor store, and he's a, a sommelier of sorts and he recommended this.
It's from Italy, and it's 14%, so it's higher alcohol, but it's a little bit, it's dry, but it's got a little bit of jammies to it, which I. You know, I'm not a big fan of, you
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Hmm.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: like it too sweet. Uh, but it's, it's good. I'm enjoying it. And, um, you know, [00:08:00] because here in Canada we can't get American wines right now.
Right. You know, the,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Oh yeah. Interesting.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: um. I'm, anyway, I lean European anyway. Um, my, my favorite region is, is France, um, they can produce really super dry arid wines and that's what I lean towards. But I tried this, this, uh, Italian one and it's pretty good. pretty good. I'm enjoying it,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Alright.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: PM So.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Well, cheers to you, my friend, and cheers to those of you who are listening. I just met someone yesterday who says they listened to these episodes while he's riding his bike, so he's not drinking as he's listening to this. But shout out to you and to all of you, if you are able to enjoy a great glass with us, it's even better.
It, it, it, it enhances the experience. So,
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: sure
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: David, one of the questions I like to begin with so that our listeners get a frame of reference for you, a little bit of your journey. Is if you were to look at the last 10 years of your life, [00:09:00] so we will narrow it down the last 10 years, how would you say your faith has changed in that window of time?
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Wow. We're diving into the deep end. Right.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: We're just, we're starting right there. Yeah.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Um, well, that, I think that's, that's my. Um, raise on debt. Uh, my, my reason for being is, my reason for living is, is change is, growing. And, you know, that's, that's been to my benefit. Like I've always. Wanted to find places and spaces where they permitted me to grow, to become my most authentic self, because I think that's what growth is.
Becoming more aware of who you are and be being that. and so that, that has been, worked for me, but it's also made life difficult when you [00:10:00] decide to be yourself there, you know, you sometimes outgrow. Um. And make the community you're in uncomfortable. And, and so that, that's why my life has been. You know, that kind of a, a, a growth journey, but it's, it's meant a lot of, uh, heartbreak too along the way because you, you gain friends, lose friends, and, and you gain support. You lose support, you gain affirmation, you lose affirmation. So that, that's been my journey in the last 10 years for me because, uh, I left the ministry in 2010.
So it's been actually 15 years since I left the church. I've, uh. And the ministry, and I haven't had any bosses. uh, it's been kind of a, breakneck speed over the last 15 years and 10 years, and I'm, I'm really enjoying myself and I [00:11:00] feel like I'm becoming more and more myself at a quicker rate. So, yeah.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: I love that, and I think that's the experience I hear from so many people. When you, when you begin this journey, when you step out, when you take that leap into whatever the unknown is, you do feel like I'm becoming something really cool and I like it. And it's, it's happening quickly, but it comes with all of those, uh, all of the loss, all of the pain, all of the transition of that journey.
I'm curious, you've, you know, you're, you're in this full-time artist space now from a very different traditional ministry role. What was the, was there a tipping point for you? Was it a gradual, like, Hey, I gotta get outta this and do something else? Or did something happen that you're like, this is, this is it for me to, to, to be done with this?
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Yeah, that's really my life story, that question because I, uh, when I went and got my, um, my BA in Bible and Theology and then I got my master's in Bible New Testament, my goal was to become a [00:12:00] New Testament scholar. I even started my PhD. At the University of Toronto in New Testament studies. You know, I had the years of Greek years, years of Hebrew French theological German, Aramaic, even
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Oh wow.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: but like I, I, uh, my intent was to become, um, a Bible scholar and then. Things happen. Life got in the way and I ended up kind of by accident in the ministry and Right. Even, I even remember on the eve of my ordination really struggling with the fact that I was entering the ministry and I struggled with my calling whole way. Uh, and I, I think part of the reason is because I knew what ministry would could do to people. I, I've, I've seen it. know what church religion, um, systems, you know, organizations, ideology. I, [00:13:00] I saw what it could do to people and I was afraid it would do it to me. Plus I wasn't just a pastor. Like I, there was so much other stuff going on in my life, like music and art and, you know, all this stuff.
And. I couldn't figure out how to make it fit. So I, you know, I've always drawn and painted, um, you know, ever since I was a child. And, and, and so I continued that through my ministry and it got to the point I started my blog naked pastor.com in 2005, and I was sharing my art on there and everything. And, and then I decided in 2006 to try cartoons and, and then. There was this kind of an overlap my art sort of took over and, and it became, I became more known for my cartoons than for me. Like a lot of
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Interesting.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: a lot more people have heard of Naked [00:14:00] Pastor than have heard of David Hayward and, and, um, and, and, but that's what happened. It was like, wasn't really, it was like a. Yeah, it tipped over on, you know, in, in March of 2010, but it took a long time to get there and, and, and so it was, well, by the time I left the ministry, it felt like a very natural progression into my new life of being a full-time artist.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Interesting. How, how did your church view you as an artist when you, when you were in the traditional pastoral role?
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Well, I, it was, I, I mean, as a musician, they knew about it because I wrote worship songs and led worship and stuff like that. But in terms of visual art, no. They, I, I really flew under the radar as far as that's concerned. I mean, I was showing my paintings and stuff in galleries and some money on the [00:15:00] side through my art. Um, when I started cartooning and everything, that's when naked pastors sort of came from underneath the rug and showed itself and, and started to get known. And that's actually what started getting me in trouble. But, um, most people in my, people in my church didn't read my blog. They were like, why do I wanna read your blog?
I already have to listen to you once a week anyway, like,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: We're sick of you.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: And then, but then when my cartoon started taking off and other people started hearing about it and they started to my people about it and saying, what's going on with your pastor? And, you know, writing letters to head office and head office calling me and saying, Hey, what's going on?
You know, stuff like that. That's when I knew my time was up.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: As you look at your art from that season to your art today, how would you compare it? I.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Uh. [00:16:00] I think I would compare it to I was, when I started, I was inside fully on inside the system called the church,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Hmm.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Christianity, the Ministry and all that. So I was really critiquing what was going on from the inside. And then as time moved on, you can see where my cartoons are becoming more and more marginal. And, and, and now I am fully on the outside now, although I still feel like I'm a part of the game. Like, uh, know, I'm still on the playing field, you know, um, maybe streaking through, streaking through the field or something as the naked pastor and annoying everybody. But I still feel like I'm in the game somehow. And, um, You know, at first it was harmless. It flew under the radar. I was naive. knew about it. But then [00:17:00] when, you know, it started getting popular, that's when it started getting me in trouble. And so now I, I feel like I'm more honest now than I, I was then too, because I can be, you know.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Which is also, you know, a testament to the, the growth journey. You, you've, you've become more and more fully yourself.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Yeah. Yeah. And because what holds us back from becoming ourself is, what is it? It's, it's fear of being rejected mostly, I think. I mean, there's the fear of the unknown, the fear of doubt, the fear of darkness, you know, all this stuff that's inside of us. another huge overwhelming fear is, you know, if I. Expose myself, gonna get hurt. and so, um, I think that's one of the big inhibitors to our personal growth is fear of, of rejection [00:18:00] or you know,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Hmm.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: and I've gotten used to that now. Um, and it's just, I realize now that that's just a part of the. I mean, you buy into that really? And, and so once you, once you recognize that, then you know, you have to take it.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Hm. I remember when I was in junior high. I had a social studies class and the per, the teacher offered extra credit every week. If you would take a, a, an, a political cartoon and you would write a paper on it
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Oh,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: and, and so you could get extra credit every week if you did this. And so I was always the, the nerd in school.
I'm like, if, if I can get extra credit, I'm gonna do it. So I would go to the newspaper, I would cut out these political cartoons, but I never understood them. You know, I'm in junior high and so I'd have to go to my dad and be like, can you explain? What is this cartoon saying? And then he would explain. And so I would understand all sorts of complex issues of the day that most junior hires [00:19:00] didn't because of cartoons.
Right? Because they, they were communicating something that I was diving into. I look at your work today and, and that's how I would say, you know, you, you're doing that, not necessarily politically, although it does obviously correlate, but, but which a tremendous insight. To the church, to theology, to God, to how it all plays out.
And so it's interesting to hear you say you consider yourself an outsider because when I look at your work, I, I see it as only someone who's been deeply on the inside. Could do the kind of work that you do. Right? An outsider couldn't produce that. So I'm curious, how do you, you've obviously you've moved your position clearly, but, but it's, it's, you know, if someone were to say to you, you know, David, they meet you on an airplane.
Hey, are you, are you a Christian? How are, how are you approaching that these days? How are you kind of packaging where you're located in your faith?
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Well, I do get asked that quite a bit. Um, maybe not face to [00:20:00] face, although I do once in a while. Um, or on podcasts, uh, or, um, most, mostly online. Um. The way I answer that now is, um, I've, I've, I've written a lot about this. Like, I, I have a few things that I say like, I honor my roots, but I don't let them limit me. So that's, that's one. So in other words, my roots are definitely in Christianity and in the church, but I'm not gonna let that limit me. Um, another thing I say is my home's in Christianity, but I have cottages everywhere.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Hm.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Meaning my home is in the Christian faith. My home is in the church, the home, my, my church is my mother. Uh, the church is my mother. But I've moved out, know, and I, I have cottages everywhere. I'm very, I'm comfortable, um, talking about, or I would be comfortable talking with a [00:21:00] Buddhist, an atheist, a, a Hindu, a Jew, uh, you know, um. Any, any, anybody, anywhere. You know, it's because the way I see, the way I see growth, uh, I used to see it as linear, where you moved on and left stuff behind. then I saw it as stages where you sort of go up and up and up and you, you drop stuff and you look down on your previous life and all that kind of thing. Now I see it more as spatial, like rings on a tree, nothing's rejected. Nothing's rejected. Everything's included. So I look back on my past and it's a part of who I am, but I'm growing outwardly, taking up more space and exploring, you know, other, other ideas, other thoughts, other religions, other philosophies, you know? Um, and, and it's, it's my own fault because, you know, I did grow up in a very evangelical. [00:22:00] I was a fanatical, um, evangelical. Uh, I was all in all bets. I was all in. And, um, so ha I still have my bibles from when I was a teenager, all underlined in different colored ink and written in the margins and everything, and went to Bible college.
I went to seminary for Bible, like totally, but. Uh, I started, you know, questioning things and I started exploring. So I started exploring, exploring Jewish thinkers and philosophers, uh, Abraham Heschel for example. And, and then I started reading about Islam and, you know, uh, Islamic mysticism and Rumi, et cetera, you know, and then. Hinduism and Buddhism and Zen and then quantum physics, [00:23:00] David b Carl, ve Elli, and you know, so on and so forth, like Krishnamurti, Merton, you know, all this stuff all fed into and, and nourished my growth. And these, these people are a part of the rings that make up who I am, and I can't say, oh, I'm, I'm more this than this. I'm all of it, you know what I mean?
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Yeah.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: to describe, but so when somebody says, are you Christian? I can say like Gandhi did. Yes, I'm Christian, I'm a Muslim, I'm a Hindu. I'm not you. You can be all those things. And, and because they are all a part of who I am, just like Jung said, yeah, I might present myself as male. I have an anima, a female aspect, a female side to my personality. I might appear to you as an angel, but I also have a demon.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Hmm.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: I also have darkness in me, you know, et cetera, et [00:24:00] cetera, right? So it's, we're very complex. We're multilayered, multi ringed. And, and so a long answer to
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: I love it.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: question. To a short question, are you a Christian? but. And, and, and that would be my explanation is yes, it's a part of, you know, it's, it's in my DNA for sure. And, uh, Christianity in the church is my birth family. And, but just like with my birth family, I moved out and I'm different now, but there, it's still my family. Right.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Yeah.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: And that's the way I feel about Christianity in the church and Christians.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: I like the way you've, you've navigated the different, you know, is it linear? Is it stacked, you know, progression or is it the tree analogy? I think that's a, that's a beautiful way of looking at it because depending on the metaphor we use, and I think this can get, you know, a lot of people in the deconstructing community can trip up on this, [00:25:00] where you start looking back on.
Not only previous versions of you, but then people who relate with previous versions of you and you, and you have this kinda like judgment of, oh, you haven't figured that out yet, or you haven't gotten past that yet, and you can kind of have this, this elitist sense. Not that you're trying to, it just that if you have that model of I've, I've transgressed that I've moved beyond that, right?
Then you look at someone who you would say, hasn't done that, and you can start to go, why haven't you? Why haven't you transgressed that? Whereas the tree is just like, no, give it time. You know, these, these rings will keep growing if, if the tree is healthy.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Language is so important and it's really hard to find words to this without sounding elitist or. or, because I often get accused of that. Oh, who do you think you
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Mm-hmm.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: know, and all I'm saying is that even growth I've grown, you know, it, it, even that is [00:26:00] packed with undertones, right? So. Uh, you know, there, there's a lot of philosophers, for example, Krishna Meia. Is it even possible to grow and psychologically change? Is, is that even a possibility? Or, or do we become more of who we are? You know, is that the growth is awareness, know, to what is rather than. we hope to be or wish to be, or dream to be, or fantasize being, you know? yeah, language is very important and I'm always, I always try my best to be cautious about, you know, describing my journey. Because, you know, my, one of my books that came out several years ago called, uh, questions Are the Answer. Um, it got some critical reviews because people thought I was. Making myself sound better than them, that [00:27:00] I had moved beyond Christianity.
And, and I was kind of elevating myself as somebody who'd progressed when that's not what I wanted to communicate at all. You know? And, and, but it's like you say, it's, it's really hard to, to find the words and find appropriate language. Um. And, and I think that's why deconstruction, you know, we're, we throw, everybody's throwing that word around now, but deconstruction is more of removing material rather than adding material. I think that's, for me and impor, I try to keep that metaphor, that analogy in my mind, that, if you've ever had a garden or planted anything, like let's say a tomato plant. Seed. You plant it and you can't, there's nothing you can do to make that seed grow any faster, except remove barriers and provide [00:28:00] nutrition.
Like you, you can't pull on the seed. You can't break the seed open. Once it sprouts, you can't pull that sprout, and once you see a little bud, you can't pull that bud to make the tomato come out like it's, you just have to let it be, but you provide nutrition. You remove rocks and weeds and you protect it from birds and deer and all that kind of thing, but you just provide an environment and the, and the tomato plant will grow and, and that's, I feel, the best analogy that I can find right now to describe growth for people that isn't implicitly judgmental of other people, is that you're removing barriers and provi, you're just providing nutrition. To, to that
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Yeah.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: nothing inherently great or heroic about that tomato plant. it's just, know, the, you're removing barriers and providing the nutrition at ease for growth.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Well, it's [00:29:00] most simple. You're creating a healthy environment for it to grow
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: yeah,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: safe, healthy environment without the things that would limit it to let it fully be what it could be.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: yeah, exactly.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: And w wouldn't we all want that? Wouldn't we all want that environment where we can fully grow, fully be safe? We don't have the barriers that are stopping us.
And I think that's a beautiful, beautiful picture to say we would, we would hope everybody would, would experience that. Yeah.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Yeah, we would hope. I, I don't think everybody does though. Um, I've seen it with my own eyes where, uh, people, there's people who. Even friends of mine who like began deconstructing, it was a part of their growth and everything and it became too scary for them and they reverted back to an earlier like not stage, but an earlier phase, let's say, of their faith [00:30:00] because they didn't want to face that kind of terror. Of, of doubt and fear and the potential wrath of God and, and all this kind of thing. And, and so there are, there are people who aren't prepared or willing or have the tools to fully continue the, the journey of personal growth. It's, it's terrifying. It's like, it's why a lot of people, uh. Don't want to go to therapy. Uh, it's, they intuitively know they're gonna have to face some demons, you know? And, and there's a lot of people who just refuse to do that.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Yeah. Yeah, it is scary. It's scary ideologically, and it's scary relationally because you don't, you don't know what you're gonna lose. You don't know what you're gonna be left with. And I, I, I think a lot of it's based on your personality. I think some people are more wired to kind of go into that, you know, and, and, and.
The change [00:31:00] isn't as scary where I think for other people, your personality, that is such a scary idea of losing the things that you've come to love. That even if you know or could intellectually consent to the idea that these things are holding you back, you still think, well, yeah, but these things make me feel comfortable and okay.
And you know, and there's, there's, there's security in that. And it is, it is a tricky conundrum when you're trying to help others. Fully thrive in, you know, whatever that looks like for them.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I know a lot of people who. Uh, even though they feel the church for them is unhealthy, in many ways, they still go because they're not willing to give up the fellowship or whatever. Understandable, totally understandable. I think that's the number one pain point for most people when they leave the church is the loneliness and the, you know, missing the community. I, I get it. I really do. I get [00:32:00] it. But, um, they also are like, like saying. Thus far. No further.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Yeah. Which, you know, when you, when you logically say it like that, I think people will be like, well, this is a bad trade. It's not a logical decision, it's an emotional decision that gets made, you know, of this, this feels too scary or this doesn't, uh, you know, I, I just don't like the idea of this. I wanna go back to something you said, 'cause I think it ties into all this.
You talked about you don't wanna let the roots that you had limit you. How, how do you see that? Like, let's play on that image a little bit. How do you see people allowing the roots that they have, limit them from the growth that could happen?
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Well, I, I, you know, it happened a lot in my life where, um, I'll just tell you a story. When I, when I was first in the ministry, I was a young man, um, in my mid twenties and, uh, geez, I was just a baby for crying [00:33:00] out loud. What did I know?
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: I think the same thing about my twenties. I'm like, I preached some sermons. I had no business preaching.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: You were in the ministry.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Yeah, I was a, I was a lead pastor up until, uh, 2020, so that's why a lot of your journey in my, I'm not a full-time artist, but a lot of our journeys are, are similar.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: everybody's an artist
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: Well, there you go. Okay. I'll take it.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: But, um, we all have creative. Um, yeah. Well, cool. Uh, yeah, so I was in the Ministry Presbyterian.
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: I.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Fully ordained the whole bit. I had a church, I had actually had three churches at the same time out in the country. And, um, this is my, I had started deconstructing in a very powerful way, like everything.
And so I was starting to do my research, right? Like I said, I was starting to study Jewish philosophers, Christian philosophers and mystics, and then, you know, Hindu Buddhists and atheist science, blah, blah, blah. um. [00:34:00] So there, I, I was very nervous about this because it, it was for Bolton, know, in my circles to read outside of, you know, your Christian faith and, and, uh,
jeremy_1_11-03-2025_100224: In my circle. You couldn't even read Rob Bell without getting flack. I mean, and I would say that's our same circle friends, but it was like, no, no, no, you, you can't go that far.
david_1_11-03-2025_130224: Yeah, so I would sneak to, there was a, a university about half an hour down the road and I would, I would go there and hang out in the library once in a week and I would read abstracts and religious journals and philosophy and all this kind of stuff. And I would hide in a corner. I would hide in a corner with my back.
To everybody. And you know, secretly hiding away reading Buddhism and Krishnamurti and, [00:35:00] um, Thomas Merton, his Asian journal and, you know, all, all this stuff, uh, science, philosophy, everything. And one day I felt the top of my shoulder and another local pastor was like, what are you reading that crop for? He says, we have enough stuff to read in Christianity.
Like, you don't need to be reading that crap. And, and it's counterfeit anyway, you know, and I was totally embarrassed, you know, I was like 25, totally ashamed and, you know, put, put it away and, and drove home. And that, that's what I'm talking about is I was trying to. Move beyond my roots, and I was being chastised for it and, and, and shamed, you know, for it.
And, and, and so [00:36:00] that can happen in all kinds of, uh, arenas. You know, I remember another time I was working for a ministry and I, I was pretty new and somebody, well actually I was brand new and somebody was picking me up. From the airport or something and who also worked for the ministry and they were playing U2 on the radio.
And I says, oh man, you like U2? 'cause I liked U2. He is, you like U2. And he goes, oh no man, that that was an accident. I must accidentally press the wrong button. And he's going totally covering his ass. I was like, dude, it's okay. Like I like you too. It's okay. 'cause he was newer than me. And he was afraid he was gonna get found out.
And you too, man. Come on. And, and you know, all that kind of stuff where [00:37:00] exploring beyond the boundaries of, of like that every, every. You know, self discovery or growth or adventure or spirit journey or you know, whatever you want to call it, always requires leaving the camp and going out into the wilderness somehow and discovering something.
Either your, your true self or your spirit animal, or, you know, meet your ancestors or I don't know what, but you have to go out of the camp. You have to leave the camp. That doesn't mean you're gonna divorce your camp or reject your camp, it just means you're gonna discover who more of who you are, right?
So, um, and there's another thing I say too. Uh, I wouldn't be who I am now unless I was who I was then. So that is all a part of my journey. Like I wouldn't be who I am [00:38:00] now unless I was that conservative, evangelical fanatic. When I was a teenager, you know? So it's like nothing gets rejected. Everything gets used, uh, somehow.
And that's, that's how I see my journey. Yeah. And that's how I respect my roots. 'cause, because I, what I do see though, is a lot of people who are deconstructing, are embarrassed by their roots, ashamed, repulsed, uh, you know. They wanna reject it and deny it, dismiss it, hide it, forget it. Um, whereas I, I wonder if a healthier way would be to somehow integrate that, figure out how that was somehow fuel for your journey to get you to where you are right now,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Okay. I want to talk a little bit about your [00:39:00] art and there's so many, so many questions I have about this, but we will,
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Sure.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: we'll figure out a few of 'em to go. I'm, I'm curious 'cause a, a lot of people know you from your art. That's, that's the, the public persona they get. But from your point of view, what, what is the stuff that you make that you are the most proud of that maybe isn't what's most popular?
It isn't what gets you the most traction, but the things that you create that you think, this is, this is really good. This is, you know, this is some of my best stuff. What is that from your point of view?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: A family that's cheesy, but yeah. Um, no. I have a wonderful family, my wife and three kids. Uh, so, that's not my work. uh, what I, what I like most, I think, and this is what I endeavor to do, is. [00:40:00] I have thousands of cartoons, right? I've been cartooning since 2006, almost a cartoon every day. new cartoon every day.
Thousands of cartoons, over 5,000 cartoons. My favorite ones, and I think the ones that are the most popular even are the ones that don't have words.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: And I, I wonder if it's because it's just a visual impact or. If it's more universal, no translation required.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Um, and maybe also because I had to put more time into creating it without words, because words, uh, alleviate a lot of work.
You
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: So, um, so like my, my cartoon overturning where Jesus is flipping the tables. There's no words. Um, it's a very dramatic cartoon. It kind of looks like a, a matrixy kind of [00:41:00] a image, um, puzzle of love where Jesus and different colored sheep are sitting around a puzzle shaped like a heart, and they're, they're making the puzzle and they've gut chips and dip and coke and all that kind of stuff.
Popcorn, um, eraser where, um. There's a bunch of people with big fat pencils, drawing lines, and
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I love that one.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: upside down, erasing the lines.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah. That's so good.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Um, yeah, so cartoons like that, that have no words, I think I'm, I'm the most proud of and I aspire to make more of those. It's so hard though. It's such a challenge.
um, I think those are the ones I'm most proud of.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Is your goal to to create a cartoon every day?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: So what does that, I mean, just the, the creative [00:42:00] weight of that seems pretty massive. How do you, how do you go about, all right, today's a new day. What's the new cartoon?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Well, okay, so, my wife and I are busy for the next few days. So yesterday she's working, she's a full-time nurse. Um, she's a palliative care nurse. uh. We always joke, uh, she's, she helps people die and I try to help people live,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: There you go.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: uh, um, I. I thought I'm gonna have my cartoons all posted and everything ready to go so that, you know, we can get up in the morning, have our coffee, relax, I don't have to worry about anything and do our, we can do our thing.
so yesterday I came up with like three or four original cartoons and I drew them all yesterday and I, and I painted a painting as well. So like, you know, I don't know if you saw the painting, but it's fuck your Al algorithm. I
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah. Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: you, you can delete it out if you want, but, [00:43:00] um. So, but yeah, I, I, I, I get up in the morning and if I don't have a cartoon ready, I just get in that space and wait for inspiration to come and, and then draw it, you know, and sometimes, uh, you know, when I'm running or whatever, I, I work out quite a bit.
So like, when I go for a run, often ideas will come to me. I will jot down the idea so that the morning of, I can draw the idea, right? So my mind's constantly coming up with images and ideas and all that kind of thing. It's like a, a factory of ideas and creativity. Like a, I, I admit I'm a little bit prolific when it comes to that kind of thing.
So I, I just write it down and then when the day comes, I draw it,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I, I, I've totally found.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: [00:44:00] It's fun though for me,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Well, you can tell you enjoy it.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: like, oh my God, that's,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: that's a heavy burden. That's a
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: responsibility. That's a lot of work. But for me, like this, I just love doing it. Right. It's my passion, so,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I, so I, you know, I'm not drawing cartoons, but I try to write and produce, you know, podcasts and content and different things, and I have found going on a walk. Is so helpful for my mind to start organizing and, and ideas will come to me or things will click into place of like, oh, that would be amazing to explore that idea and connect that to that.
And it is so interesting how moving your body does something in your brain to, to help you know those ideas. And so I always tell people like if you're stuck with writer's block, move away from your desk. Go for a walk. Like you gotta get out and let your body move.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah. like when I, I I, I live in a beautiful spot here. I live on the river here, so
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: man. That's awesome.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: and uh, [00:45:00] my, road just goes all up and down the river. So when I go for a run, I don't wear any ear earphones or head, you know, phones or anything. It's just the wind and the birds and, uh, it could be raining.
I love running in the rain, like whatever, whatever, weather, snow, ice, which you probably. Are familiar with where you are
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: We've, we've heard of it before, David.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: in Arizona? My God, I love heat, but what the hell am I doing here in Canada? I don't know. Well, I know why it's safer here, but aside from
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I think a lot of listeners are envying you right now.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: yeah. Uh, it's a beautiful spot. So when I run, I'm, I'm totally unplugged and just ideas just come rolling in, you know, and I think.
I think if, if you do that, if you unplug from everything and, uh, allow your mind to, to go, uh, it'll come up with some ideas and, and it, [00:46:00] it, it always works for me. Uh, like when I'm in my car, I can come up with ideas, but I can't have my music on.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Oh, interesting.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah. And, um, and then the idea is just roll in, you know?
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm. So you said earlier, everybody's an artist. I can imagine quite a few people listening to this. Would put themselves in the aspiring artist camp and, and hear you talk about how much you're producing and, and are fans of your work and go, wow, I would love to be more of an artist of, you know, whatever it is they're producing.
What, what's your encouragement to that person who maybe is trying to produce something, doesn't know how to let that fully be a part of 'em? How, how have you found, you know, it helpful to embrace that part of you and let that part of you fully come out?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: So maybe I'll rephrase that. Uh, [00:47:00] everybody's an artist, but everybody's creative in some way. Everybody's creative in some way. Don't call yourself an artist that comes with a lot of packaging. You know, a lot of baggage there, but everybody's creative in some. Um, you know, it could be painting or drawing or poetry or music or baking, cooking, forming groups, communities, you know, dancing.
There's tons of ways to be I have a friend who, she's a baker and like, she is amazing. Like she,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: I, I think she's an artist, you know. Um, and, and so everybody's creative in some way, and so, but if you want to enter, you know, dive into some form of creativity or art, like let's say painting or, or whatever, or maybe you want to draw cartoons, [00:48:00] just start I, I just started, I mean, my earliest cartoon sock, but you know, I.
I, I was learning, you know, I, I could paint, I could sell a watercolor, I could draw pictures, but cartoons, it comes with its own, you know, philosophy. Like you have to learn a lot. I've learned a lot over the years about how to cartoon, but, you know, there, it's, it's not about, it's not about skill. For example, like.
Um, I did a workshop recently in Toronto where some people, oh, I would like cartoon, but I can't draw. And I like, well, here, look at this person. a famous cartoonist. published in The New Yorker, which for me is the Benchmark Gold Standard. Her name's Leanna Fink, and it looks like a, a little kid drawing with its wrong [00:49:00] hand per cartoon.
So, I'm se I'm serious. I'm not joking. She can paint. I, you know, she's shown her paintings before, but she gave that up for cartooning, and it really literally looks like a child's drawing with the wrong hand. And in terms of, know, artistic excellence, like a lot of people might be very judgmental. I get that all the time too.
My, my 4-year-old could draw better than that. I,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: wrote recently, one of my cartoons. But that's not the point. That's not the point. You're, you're, you're doing something else, right? So whatever your creativity is, just do you draw what you want to draw, paint what you wanna paint, write what you wanna write, well sing what you wanna sing, whatever it is.
And. Break the mold. Don't, don't follow. You might wanna follow some rules and everything to learn a [00:50:00] little bit of skill, but like, break the rules and, and just play. Just play and see what happens. You know, that, that's what I recommend is just use your artistic imagination and just play and, and see what happens.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: You mentioned something in that answer that you said you have to be willing to, you know, make some bad stuff and you look early on in some of your work and you're like, ah, it wasn't very good. I, I think that is so, so profound, and that is the thing that I think keeps more people from trying it is the, you dip your toe into, you play, and then you go, eh, that's not really good.
And so then you give up rather than going. Okay. How do I build on that? How do I learn from that? And I look at, I'll even take just this podcast, so this is gonna be episode 61 of this podcast.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Wow.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: look at some of the early episodes of this and they're terrible. I mean, the camera's bad. The audio's bad. My interviewing wasn't very [00:51:00] good.
It's awkward. I mean, just like I look and I cringe, and I just, this last Sunday I was preaching at a church and I had someone tell me. They're like, Hey, I'm, I, I just listened to this episode. And they referenced, it was like episode three and I knew it was episode three, and I'm like, why are you listening to that episode?
And they said, oh, I'm, I, I went back from the beginning and I, I'm gonna listen to all of 'em. And I, I felt the need to apologize to them. Like,
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: so sorry those early ones aren't good.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: took me a while to figure out what I do, and I, I, I feel like I'm, every episode I'm getting better. I'm learning new things.
But it's that willingness. I think you have to be willing to either look foolish or look silly or just to laugh at yourself and like, Yeah. that isn't, that isn't the greatest, you know, but that unless you're willing to go through that discomfort, you never get to, to build on your skills or to enhance it or to grow.
And so it's, it's encouraging to me to hear you say, you look back on some of yourself are like, Yeah.
that's, that's not the greatest. Because I think that is what I [00:52:00] know and that's what I think. Every single person who creates anything knows your early stuff is a little bit rough,
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Well, and it's, it's sort of an analogy to life, right? Like I said earlier, I wouldn't be the cartoonist I am now unless I drew those, uh, it's a
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: right?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: right?
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: It's how you, it's how you got here.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Oh, it's so good. All right. I'm gonna try to, I'm trying to think of what questions. I have more questions than we have time.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: you know, Jeremy, like I, I was cartooning and people started sharing it because some, there's something about a cartoon, preferably one frame with as few words as possible, simply drawn. They say a picture's worth a thousand words, and if I can convey a thousand words in one picture, people are gonna see it and they're gonna be more willing to share it.
Or whatever. And that's what started Naked Pastor to take off like a [00:53:00] couple of years into my naked pastor block. And then one day I drew a cartoon that went viral and propelled me into the next level. You know,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: you never know.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: draw it real. Oh, this is gonna make it work for me. You know, I never knew.
I didn't know, I never knew.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: don't, still haven't figured out. You know, this is gonna kill it. I, just, I just don't know it's hit or miss uh, so just keep doing what you do and you never know what's gonna happen. Like, you love it though, like that painting I did yesterday, fuck your algorithm.
Uh, I did that for me 'cause that's how I'm feeling right now. And, um. I thought, well, I'm gonna draw it and you know what, I might as well share it. You know, see what happens. Like, I don't care if somebody buys it or not, but I had to paint it for me. And, and that's basically my approach to everything I do, [00:54:00] my cartoons and everything.
I'm doing it for me. And if you benefit from it, then great. That's a, a, that's cream on the top right?
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Or cherry, whatever.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I love it. Okay, so I was reading through some of your blog posts as I was getting ready for this interview, and you had one about Mark Driscoll that I really liked because Mark Driscoll's in my neighborhood now. And, uh, yeah. So this is a, an ongoing, an ongoing deal that, you know, is I, I hear about regularly.
You had a couple things that I thought were so good in that you said theology is our creation. It is a reflection of our drives and desires. Then not satisfied to only be the product of our drives and desires. It also becomes the producer of them, which I thought was so interesting. And then you, you kind of capture that whole thing with this phrase.
You say, we are both the root [00:55:00] and fruit now in Driscoll's case. And I would say in many others the theology. Is unbelievably abusive to people and to what it produces. And many of us have watched that, that there's a great. podcast called The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill. If you're curious on Driscoll in particular, that literally documents in incredible detail the abusiveness of this, I'm curious, what have you found as you've grown, as you've journeyed beyond, uh, as you've added rings to your, to your tree?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Right.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: do we foster a really healthy theology? That allows us to grow and allows those around us to thrive as well.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah. Uh, so I, I still believe that what I wrote back then, um, and is we, we, we don't believe against our will, like what we believe, what we wanna believe, [00:56:00] and. One of my most controversial cartoons is, uh, the Bible plus your interpretation equals your interpretation. And because that's all we have
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Right.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: is our interpretation of the Bible, um, you know when, when somebody says, but the Bible says, but you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Wait, wait, wait. It's what you say, the Bible says you gotta keep that clear because when you are, what the Bible says and his, what the Bible says are two totally different things. So it really, it just comes down to interpretation. And we only believe what we wanna believe. Nobody's believing against their will and, so I believe that people who, whose theology is hateful and abusive because.
[00:57:00] Their heart is hateful and abusive. That's a, that's a harsh thing to say, but we, I, I really do believe that people believe what justifies and affirms their heart, you know, so somebody else, you know, I go to this church and the pa I agree, everything the pastor says. Well, it's because you wanna, you, you know, you, you're believing everything the pastor says.
He's not, he doesn't believe everything you like it. It's, it's a, you know, what do, what do you call that the, the, the host and the parasite, symbiotic relationship. symbiotic relationship. And, um, and, and so. We, [00:58:00] my, what I, what I'm saying these days is that, it possible to, instead of having a hermeneutic of like the way we interpret the text, the way we interpret the Bible or whatever, being, instead of it being by faith, you are saved or you know, through faith or, you know, um.
Purity or, know, whatever is what if it was, uh, a hermeneutic of love? Can we, can we read the Bible with love? Like if, if I have an empathetic, empathetic heart, a, a loving heart, I care for people, I care for the marginalized and the and the abuse. If I care for them, then I'm gonna. I care for the Bible.
I'm gonna find affirmation for my empathy in the Bible.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Right. [00:59:00]
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: And if, if I want to, don't need to, but if I want to, I can find a lot of passages that would encourage me to care for the poor, for example, not just, you know, care like care. You know, so, uh, but if I have a, a hateful heart, a greedy heart, um, uh, an exclusivist heart that feels that you're poor because you deserve it, or you don't work hard enough, or just wanna suck off the system, or, you know, whatever, then.
Your theology is gonna reflect that
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: find a theology that is abusive towards the poor. That's just the way it works. And, and then it becomes [01:00:00] cyclical. The, the more I, if I, if I have a, uh. Hateful heart towards the poor. Suspicious what, what are they spending the money I give them on, you know, kind of attitude.
Uh, gonna find that endorses that suspicion it's gonna make me more suspicious. 'cause it's now, it's got religious backing.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: And that fuels it and it, and that becomes greater and my heart becomes even more hateful, and I find even more hateful passages. So you get to the point where you feel it's totally legitimate to wipe out a, an entire people.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: So that, that's what I mean, that,
you know, we're not only the root, we're also the fruit. It's, we're, we're the whole package.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah,
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: And so if I want, you know, if I wanna. Live a, a life of justice and love and [01:01:00] empathy and caring and and all that. Then my heart has to be that first
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: you have to be looking for it.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: down to the human heart. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah, that's good. All right. We're gonna, we're gonna move to some questions that I ask each guest and we get to compare your answers with everybody else's answers.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: hmm.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: We'll start with a wine question. If I, were to ask you, David, what is, like, if you think about one moment that you think this was.
Enjoying wine at its fullest. So like either the best glass you can remember the, the moment that you thought this was. This is just the best wine could be. Is there a story that comes to mind? Is there a bottle that comes to mind? Is it a setting? Is it who you're with? Does anything come to your mind when I say, what's the best experience you've ever had with wine?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: I I do have a story.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Let's hear it.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: [01:02:00] story. So my neighbor, she's an elderly woman, but her one, she has a family and they come to visit and blah, everything. So I'm friends with them all and uh, know, they've all moved on and everything. Well, one of them is quite successful and has quite a successful business and, um, he loves wine.
A good whiskey as a, as do I and a good cigar, as do I. Anyway, one day he had us over Lisa and I, my wife Lisa and I, um, he had some nice wines there and he said his personal Somalia, uh,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: wow.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: in Toronto, but he was visiting here in St. John New Brunswick. And, um. His personal sommelier recommended that he go to this local liquor store and buy these bottles because they were cheaper here than they are in Toronto.
And, and so he, he had a few of these bottles out like, one was like [01:03:00] 600 bucks and, you know, so on and so forth. Like, I'm talking
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Wow. Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: bot. Well, to me, expensive and, uh. I, in my mind, like I, I'd been drinking wine already before this mo, like I, for years, I, I love a good red and he was like, yeah, this one's $600.
Let's try this one first. And I'm going, said, yeah, I got it for 600, it's like 800 in Toronto. And I'm going, it can't
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: a deal.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: no, I, I, my my thinking was, it can't be that good.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: It can't, it can't be $600 better it can't be five $80 better than a 20.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Right.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: So, and I took a sip and I, I got tears in my eyes.
I almost cried
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Oh wow.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: oh my [01:04:00] God, I said, I will never taste wine this good again.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: It ruined you forever.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: was like, it was like a whole other drink. It was like a whole other world. And I had NI had never experienced that in my life, it sort of opened up or opened up, you know, a cavern underneath
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: kinda thing.
But just to know that there, there's really excellent wine out there is, uh, yeah. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: amazing. Envious of that experience. That sounds delightful.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah, it was, it was incredible. Yeah, so we drank a few bottles of wine that night. It was just wonderful and a good, a good Cuban, which you guys can't get down there, but
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I think. I think we can now, but yeah. we couldn't get it for a while.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Okay, cool.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I'm more, I'm more of a pipe guy these days, so I, I haven't done as many cigars as I used to, [01:05:00] but
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: I don't smoke cigars much, but it was a really nice Mon Monica Cristo and yeah. Really
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Sounds delightful.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Hmm.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Alright. Which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you and who would you not trust and why?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Wow. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Well, there you go. Welcome to Cabernet and Pray.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Um, certainly for beer, probably Martin Luther, but, um, wine. Wine who drank wine.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: They don't have to have drank wine. But if you were, you were letting someone pick a bottle for you today, who would you trust? So think about your views of [01:06:00] that person and, and the way they would pick a bottle for you.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: I love this question. It really got my mind rolling. Um, Meister Eckhart,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Oh, okay.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: the Mystic, the German mystic. Um, although Germany isn't known for its great wines,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Germany's got got some, uh, great Rieslings.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: yeah, but I'm not much of a white guy. I am a white guy, but not much of a white
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: You're, you're a pretty white guy, David.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: I'm very white. Look at me. He's now Taylor, hard de Chardon.
Maybe he was French. I bet he could come up with a good bottle of wine.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: You're not gonna go wrong choosing a Frenchman,
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: No. I'm gonna go with him.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: okay?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Who, who are you not? Who are you not trusting to pick a bottle for you?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Bart Carl Bart, [01:07:00] I, my, uh, um, uh, the, the president on of, um, Presbyterian College at McGill University, where I went and got my Diviv equivalent. he studied under Carl Bart. He was a Calvin Scholar and he studied under Carl Bart and would go to Germany and everything. And he, he told some stories, man, it was just incredible.
'cause I, I loved Carl Bart as well. And, um, he, he said after classes, they, he, Carl Bart would meet with all of his students in the local pub kind of place and they would all order something, he would order a glass of wine and set it down on the table and they would have their theological discussions. then when they were all done and ready to go home, Carl Bart would just take the glass of wine and knock it back
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: What?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: in one gulp and then he would go home.
It's like, that's not how you drink a glass of wine, but that's how Carl Bart did it.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Wow, that's sacrilege.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: [01:08:00] Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Man, that's, that's intense. I've never heard that story. I like that.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Alright. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Hell, uh, you know, that's, that's an easy one. But, um, I'll tell you what started my deconstruction though. I was graduating from seminary. It was the day of my graduation, and I suddenly realized I wasn't sure about the inspiration of scripture, and that for me was absolutely devastating. Absolutely devastating and, uh, that's what really started the deconstruction.
I compare it to somebody planting corrupt code in my theological brain
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: and it just doing its work over the decades corrupting my theological files. So, [01:09:00] yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I like it. What do you see as the main issues, and I'm asking you this as a Canadian, so what do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Well, authoritarianism, fascism, control, power, um, the, I think that's the, I think that's the root of a lot of. And I'm, I'm reading a lot of feminist scholars these days. I'm doing a deep dive into feminism and there's tons of books, tons of, uh, very wise, intelligent feminist writers, women, and, um, I'm beginning to understand that white male supremacy, the patriarchy At the root of a lot of our problems,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: [01:10:00] just us, but everywhere in the world. And, um, so I'm, you know, overturning the patriarchy I think is a, um, it's not something that will be, I don't know if it'll be something that will be accomplished, but it's a day-to-day battle for sure.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: And. That's what I think is the root of, uh, a lot of our problems is the patriarchy to be, to be honest with you.
I'm, I'm just gonna lay that out there. I really do think the patriarchy is at the root of a lot, a lot of our problems.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah, I agree.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Do you?
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I do. Absolutely.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Okay. Wow. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Are you surprised by that?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Um, yeah, a little bit. Um, because. Uh, you know, a lot of people resort to common things like [01:11:00] sin or, know, pornography
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: on this podcast, David. Nope.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: or, you know, ambition or, or, or all this.
But really do think that at the root of all of this stuff, um, and a lot of problems that America's facing and that there's some people that wanna see Canada face. The patriarchy white male supremacy in particular.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I, I just did. I just did a video the other day where I was talking about the comparisons of purity culture and Christian nationalism, and I think one of the themes that that, that brings them together is patriarchy. So you have this underlying foundation in both of those of the patriarchy. And so I was making the point in that video of.
Th this one, you know, kind of foundational tenet that has been, that has been laid down for generations is producing all of these other things, you know, producing purity, culture, producing [01:12:00] Christian nationalism, all these things. And so until we pull that weed out, we're gonna keep getting these bizarre expressions of what it means to follow God in different ways.
And I think absolutely, we've gotta name it. Patriarchy is is not remotely what Jesus ever intended. It is not remotely what causes people to thrive. And so I'm in a hundred percent agreement with you that patriarchy is a massive issue.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Cool. I'm, I'm glad to hear that. Um, yeah, it's, uh, a fascinating journey and you know, here I am, a white male, straight guy sitting in his armchair. Saying so, but, you know, I really do think that that's at the root of a lot of what's going on, you know, all the problems right now with the marginalization of the poor and the brown, brown people, black people, women, [01:13:00] um, attacks against their bodies and their bodily autonomy and, you know, all, all the stuff is, is rooted in this sort of a.
Patriarchy that has a religious flavor to it. And, um, that's, well 'cause it's evident in many religions anyway, um, I'm doing my reading and my research and having conversations and doing my best to, to challenge that. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Well, and I think for a lot of us, like I'll, you know, speak for myself, I grew up with a theology that that supported patriarchy, you know, to be quite honest. And, you know, grew up being told, you know, I'm supposed to be the head of my household. And That's, what faithfulness looks like for me. You know? So even going into my marriage thinking, that's what I that's what I have to do to be a good Christian.
And then at some point, you know, along the way going, this feels funky and this doesn't really make sense [01:14:00] to me, you know, and starting to poke holes in it and then getting to the point where it's like, this is bogus, this is something else. But, you know, I was definitely raised with that theology. That was the evangelicalism.
And it goes back to what you're saying is, you know, we choose the theology that supports what we wanna be. And I think that was the culture I was raised in. Like it wanted to be patriarchal, so it created a theology that supports it.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: That's, I was just gonna say the same thing. Like that goes to my point about we choose a theology that. Firms. So men want control and we have a, a religion that supports that. you can find biblical enough, biblical passage passages to support that. indeed, you know, prop 25, et cetera, it's, um, very handmade, stale.
It's all very. And, and it, it comes from the patriarchal [01:15:00] heart, right? Uh, it, it's found formed, uh, an ideology, a religion of theology that, um, allows it to perpetuate
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: and gets stronger.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: What is something blowing your mind right now, something you're learning?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Um. What's blowing my mind right now is I, I feel like I am, I, this, this is kind of personal, but I feel like I'm in a kind of a transition phase and I am somehow, I feel like I'm in an incubator for my next.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Level or next phase or whatever. And I'm very, it's very disconcerting. Um, I, I, I don't [01:16:00] know what to expect.
I don't know how to prepare for it. I don't know what to do. I'm kind of confused. Um, but I'm, I feel like that painting I did yesterday, fuck, your algorithm has something to do with kind of a, um. My, my artistic expression a little bit. So it's kinda like the child in the birth canal.
It's very, it's very compressed and tight and confusing and dark and no oxygen and you don't know what's coming 'cause you'd never been there. And, you know, it feels like that. And, and so it's kind of blowing my mind right now because I've, I've been in situations like this before. But, and, and I'm okay.
I'm kind of at peace with it, but it's kind of also, I'm realizing it's blowing my mind 'cause I need to somehow this sink into my heart and, and take the next step somehow, but [01:17:00] don't know how yet. So that's
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Ooh, what an answer to that question. that's exciting.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah. Yeah,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I like that. What's a problem that you're trying to solve?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: that one.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Okay.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: That's my problem. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: What is it?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah. So, yeah. And I don't even know what the problem is, but, um, but there is another problem though. How can I be to be creative and be myself and continue doing what I do and still earn a living?
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm. I feel you deeply on this one. Yep.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Like I, I want to be authentic and real. Um. But it's like, so for example, I have an online community called the Lasting Supper, um, so every once in a while I promote it and I always feel really yucky when I do.
But [01:18:00] you know, it's typical of artists not to. Feel comfortable promoting their work or their, you know, whatever. But I, I, I, that's, that's a problem for me is how do I make our, make a community, make any kind of a product, write a book, paint a painting, whatever, and, and sell it
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm. Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: I can feed myself and my family.
That's, that's, that's a problem. So
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah, no, when I was a lead pastor, I made a great salary and I had benefits for my family and
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Oh
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: paychecks rolled in and it was great. And then you leave that and you start to try to pursue what God's laying on your heart and you're like, how do I feed these five kids of mine?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: You have five kids.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: I do and they want, they want meals three times a day.
David, is that ridiculous or what?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Unbelievable.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah, I I [01:19:00] know.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: from a family of five kids. I'm the
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Oh,
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: kids, and
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: nice.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: kids. So how can I ask you how you earn a living now?
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: So it's a little, it's a little bit of, of everything. So I have an online community as well. It's called Rebuilding Faith, that, uh, is mainly people that support my work and are interested in this. And we go deeper, you know, throughout the week. So when, what you're saying about your online community, like I completely feel that it, it feels weird, but.
I've learned there are people that, you know, are able to support and want to, and that that helps. Um, I do speaking regularly, so I speak regularly at other churches and that, you know, provides some income as well, and then do some writing and some other projects. But it's, uh, I've, I've nowhere come near what my salary was that I left.
And so my goal is like, can I even get in the ballpark of where I used to be? And, uh, and Yeah. it's been, I mean. It, it's one of those, and I, I just appreciate your [01:20:00] honesty there because I think a lot of people feel this, of like, when you play by the rules, things make sense and things are easier in that regard.
Like, I never worried about a paycheck. I never, you know, I got paid very Well. as a, in ministry and, and you know, as an exec pastor at a megachurch, and then as the lead pastor at a megachurch got paid very well. These days, I don't get that salary. And so I feel like I'm, I'm more me. I'm more alive. I'm more faithful to what Jesus has invited me to be.
And it has never been harder to pay the bills than it is right now. And both of those are true. And that's a, so, I, I just, I resonate with everything you said and second it.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Good on you, man. Yeah, I mean, uh, I admire that. I admire people that do that. And, um, I know, I know the challenge. I, I get the hard work, you know, it's, it's, it's tough. So, you know, I'm, I'm constantly like, I have [01:21:00] a naked pastor.com where I sell all my prints and my originals and, you know, everything.
Then I have my online community, the Lasting Supper, and then I have books, and then I do speaking gigs. Although I can't go to the states right now because of things. And then, you know, I have several streams of income and, but that, that's the key, is that I'm happy and we're happy and we're able to pay the bills and feed ourselves and et cetera.
So it's worth it. I have taken risks in my life and proven to myself that somehow, uh, it's worked for me, uh, uh, where when I've taken a, a leap of faith, let's say, that the the ground has risen up to, to meet me and, um. So far it's [01:22:00] proven to be true. Now, I'm, I'm very reluctant to say that happens for everybody,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Sure.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: uh, it, it's happened for me.
And so I, I know for a lot of people out there, try it. Take, take the risk if you, if you dare, and, and see what happens. But at the same time, like you've been doing this for years, I've been doing this for years too. Like I, I left the ministry in 2010. We're talking 15 years later, and I just feel like, okay, finding I, can live, I can live here.
You know, that's a long time,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: um, it's worth it if, if you're free, right?
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah. I, I think that's a, this is a beautiful thing to kind of wrap up on because I think this is, this is the reality. You know, we can talk about these ideas and hey, deconstruct your faith and pursue this, and it's like, Oh that's great. The reality is it might literally cost you something that you may never get back [01:23:00] and.
So I, I don't necessarily give a blanket endorsement on this for people. If you're not ready for it, you, you have to be ready to go on the journey. Knowing you, you may absolutely have loss and the point you made of, you know, it's, it's worth it. You have to be there. You have to have that sense of, even if I don't replace that or I'd never get that back.
What I, what I get in exchange is worth it. And that's how I feel is, you know, I'm five years into that for me.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: so you're, you're 10 years further into that transition than I am. But I, I would say this year, like recently is the first time I even feel encouraged, like I'm going in the right direction. If you would've asked me two years ago, three years ago, I'd be like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life.
You know, everything made sense. Now it doesn't and I gotta figure things out.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yep.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: just now am starting to feel like some of those pieces are starting to, you know, coalesce together. And so I think everybody who goes on this journey gets some version of that. Now, it might be different [01:24:00] for them, depending on obviously how you, how you pay the bills and what your, you know, career is.
But, um, you're gonna lose, you're gonna lose something. You're gonna lose, you know, something. Financial community definitely.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yep.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: And a sense of security and a sense of. This makes sense. And I fit and you know, and, and yet, we'll, we'll just wrap it back up on this. And yet you and I would both agree it's worth It
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: It is, it's, it's worth it, for sure. Like my favorite story, biblical story comes from the Hebrew Bible at least back in Egypt, we had leeks and onions.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: And, and so that's the story of my life, like
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: so bad.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: the wilderness. I'm, I'm on my way to the land flowing with milk and honey,
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: but my God, it's hard. Like, and every once in a while there's a windfall like quail.
or parting of the Red Sea [01:25:00] or every once in a while, but you know, most of the time it's plotting through hot sand.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Hmm.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: And, and every once in a while it's like, man, at least back then leaks of onions. You know what I mean?
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah, totally.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: that's, that's the story of my life and, and I, I keep holding out for the land flowing with milk and honey, whatever that looks like.
Uh, you know. I can smell it in the air from here. Um, I'm not quite there, but I can smell it in the air. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: That's beautiful. Alright, David, anything else I haven't asked you in our time together that we cannot wrap up this episode without addressing?
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Well if, if people wanna find me, just go to naked pastor.com. Um, my, I think my, uh, even though I'm finding Instagram incredibly frustrating these days, um, that's where. I really pay a lot of attention to moderating the comments and I do a lot of deleting and blocking [01:26:00] there. So it's quite safe there on Instagram.
Follow me there. Um, and I'm al I always answer people when they email or message me. I'm really good at that and, uh, yeah, thanks for having me on your show and yeah, I hope everybody out there has a great life
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Well. I just wanna say number one, thank you for taking time with us today and doing some, some early afternoon day drinking for us.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: that. Number two, thank you for modeling this well, for, for going into the wilderness, for being a, uh, an example of someone who's willing to do it, who's willing to be fully you, who's willing to add rings to the tree.
And go wherever that takes you, even when, you know, you've been honest enough with us of the discomfort and, and all of that. Uh, we, we need examples. We need people that'll say, Yeah. I've done it. Here's what it is. And, um, you, you've given a gift to all of us, and if you haven't checked out David's cartoons and his work, you, you are missing [01:27:00] out a huge plug.
Uh, this, these are incredible ways to. Think creatively about our faith. And, and again, like I referenced earlier, David is able to create in a cartoon, so much theology, so much thought, so much of like, oh Yeah.
that really is what it's about. And, uh, and oftentimes without words and that's the, uh, uh, testament to your gift and to your talent into the journey you've been on.
So thank you for all of that, and Thanks, for spending some time with us today.
david_2_11-03-2025_133706: Thanks, Jeremy. It's been great. I've enjoyed our. Conversation and, and the wine.
jeremy_2_11-03-2025_103707: Yeah. Alright, well everybody, hope you enjoyed this episode of Cabernet and pray. We will see you.
on the next one.
