The Courage to Differ Graciously
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[00:00:00] Well, hey, friends of the pod. If you like the conversations on Cabernet and pray, I want to invite you to check out our Rebuilding Faith Online community. It allows you to dive deeper into these types of conversations each week with other people in a safe space. In addition, I'll send you my weekly newsletter that goes behind the scenes into what I'm processing and thinking about each week.
You can find out more at the link in the show notes of today's episode.
Well, hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. And today we're sitting down with a legend. This is someone that shaped me. I started reading his books right out of college and when I could explore new ideas and I realized this guy is onto something.
And to sit down with him 15 to 20, so years later is an absolute joy. And I know a number of you have already been influenced by him in some profound ways, but if you haven't figured out, I'm talking about the one and only [00:01:00] Brian McLaren. He's an author, public speaker, activist, teacher, and former pastor.
He advocates for a new kind of Christianity, rooted in love and engaged in working for the common good, including a restored relationship with the earth. This is a man who has, uh, 69 years old right now, and has lived well, has done a lot of life, has seen a lot of things, and has incredible perspective to give us today.
This is episode 62, the courage to differ graciously.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would've no idea. Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an [00:02:00] environment.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at Universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
How if I get a little loopy. It's your follow up. You told me to drink it. I just show up. I'll also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way You're doing it in the. Beautiful positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, [00:03:00] and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that. Very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.
You had me with herbaceous notes. I want you to know I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy, by the way, drinking this peanut regio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. It makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast. I think you've got a [00:04:00] good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: Well, today I am joined by someone that really needs no introduction. For most of the listeners to this podcast, welcome to Cabernet and pray. Brian McLaren.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: Hey, so glad to be with you.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: Well, I am looking forward to this conversation today. Before we dive into some of these ideas, we're gonna talk about what we're drinking.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: Okay.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: And in honor of you today, Brian, I've got a really funky one and I'm gonna explain why I chose this one, especially for you. So I'm drinking. For those of you who are watching this, you're gonna notice this is the funkiest color I've probably ever had in my glass.
This is bright orange, and this wine is called Tino. It's wine with Valencia oranges.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: Oh, that sounds interesting.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: I thought it was fun, number one, because as I was telling Brian just a minute [00:05:00] ago, I just got back from Spain last night. We were in Valencia where we got to hear the story about all of these oranges and how big of a deal it is.
And you know, if you've ever had, uh, for our beer drinkers on, on this, if you've ever had like a blue moon, you'll see that. They'll say Blue moon has to be with a Valencia orange. So this is the, the same Valencia orange, but it's made into a wine. And I was looking this up 'cause I'm like, how are they doing this?
From the best I can understand, they start with a white wine, then they add Valencia orange juice to it and let it ferment together. So totally unique, totally bizarre. Uh, really fun. It's, it's a little bit tart, but it doesn't feel like a juice. It doesn't feel like a sangria. It has more of a body to it, so it feels like you're drinking.
More of a white wine, but with that orange zest to it. And what I wrote down, and this is where I thought, okay, this, this connects, I said, this breaks categories and challenges, assumptions of what wine can be. And then I thought, what a, what a perfect drink [00:06:00] to go with my conversation with a man who breaks categories and challenges assumptions.
So Brian, that's what I'm enjoying for you. For you today, what do you got in your class?
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: Okay, so I, um, I should tell you the wine that I normally like to drink is, I, like Pinot Noir is my favorite.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: Oh yes.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: like dark reds and. Um, but um, this is a Han Chardonnay from California and, uh, I have not had a glass of wine since June because I had a bit of a health scare. And, um, so this is going to be my first glass of wine since June, and I haven't been out to buy wine since June.
And this was a gift from somebody to me. So that's why I'm having it. And if I'll make a connection to our conversation. It's this cause for celebration to be, uh, with you on this podcast for the first time and it's a gift. So happy to, happy to be sharing [00:07:00] this with you.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: Well, that is excellent. Well, cheers to you, my friend. Cheers to all of you who are listening or enjoying this, if you're able to drink along with us today.
All right, Brian, I want to ask you a question that I like to, to ask our guests. Again, you're, you, you're not the typical guest in that. I think most people who are regular listeners to this podcast probably already know your story, but in case they don't, one of the questions I love to frame our conversation and to remind people that we're on a journey.
This is not, you know, arrive at the right beliefs and then, you know, white knuckle it till you die. Is, is this question. If you look at the last 10 years of your life, how would you say that your faith has changed during that time?
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: Oh, what a great question. Okay, so I, I am 69. I know I don't look a day over 79. So the last 10 years, uh, that would be since 59. Um, I, [00:08:00] I, I think I have a good answer to your question, I should say.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: I.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: My faith has been undergoing a lot of change for a very long time. Uh, so it, I have never felt that I was in a super stable, you know, or certainly never felt at all stagnant. Um, but this last 10 years, I think two things have happened in my faith. First, I just think as you get older, you, you. You don't want you, you know, you don't have time to beat around the bush. So I think I felt freer speak what's in my heart and, and maybe a, a little more aware that some will like it and some won't, and I don't have to worry about the ones who won't.
Uh, I wanted be of help to the ones who will find it helpful. then the second thing. That's happened is, you know, [00:09:00] with over these last 10 years, it's been really the 10 years dominated by Trump. Even when Biden was president in some ways, um, he was, Trump was his foil at every turn. And watching, uh, white Christian nationalism, uh, gain more and more power watching evangelicals, that was what my, my background was.
But even a majority of Catholics and slight majority of mainline Protestants. Sort of go, go with white Christian nationalism. Um, I think one of the things that's happened in my faith is I've become less concerned about saving the church, uh, in the institutional church in its various forms and maybe more concerned about the church becoming a more dangerous, uh, uh. Institution in the world because of what's, what's going on? Not just [00:10:00] in this country, but in many countries. This fusion of right wing politics, economics, and authoritarian, uh, tendencies with Christian faith.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: Now when you say, this is fascinating to hear you say you, you feel less of that need to save the church. I know that's a huge need for a lot of people is this sense of, this thing is the wheels are falling off, things are bad. We have to save it, we have to get in there. You, you're arguing a different stance here.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: yeah, I'm not saying I don't care, but
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: no. I'm not saying that, but I'm just saying I think it's fascinating. Do you think it's, do you think that's a unique place for you in this season where maybe you did that for a while and now you know, you feel like, Hey, I'm supposed to focus on something else? Or do you think in a more general sense, it's not really worth trying to save it as it is?
You know, I, I guess those are two different ways to take that.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: No, that's a, that's a good question. Uh, see if I can explain it. Jeremy. I think as I get older. [00:11:00] That little phrase from the Bible in the fullness of time, uh, makes a lot more sense. There's a, one of the, to me, one of the most brilliant and fascinating teachings in Buddhism, it's called the law of no independent origination or, uh, the idea is that nothing happens unless the conditions are right for it to happen.
And if the conditions are right for something to happen, it will happen. And, um, I, I feel like the. Christian Church has this conservative wing that has been afraid of the present and afraid of the future, and they in some ways feel that they're in a life and death battle. And when you're in a life and death battle, you are, you can be desperate and you can take desperate me measures. think what we might think of as the liberal or mainline Protestant church and the somewhat progressive Catholic church. I think they [00:12:00] didn't realize how tenuous their position was and how powerful the counter revolution could be after Vatican II for Catholics and after kind of the civil rights movement and the progressive movement. Um, and so in a way, the conservatives. like they were losing and they were desperate,
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: Hmm.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: they worked really hard and the more progressive people acted like they were winning, meant that they kind of were not terribly. Uh, energized. It was business as usual for them. And I don't think that's changed.
Has I, I haven't seen evidence of that changing. I think we're more progressive. Christians are still in the motive. Isn't this terrible? Isn't this terrible Every day there's new reasons to say, isn't this terrible? But it's very different to say, isn't this terrible? And to say, what are we gonna do differently?
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: Right.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: And that I don't see us being, I don't see enough [00:13:00] people. Ready to do things differently. what that makes me wanna do is to say, well, let's start dreaming about what differently would look like and let's try to talk about that, for when things get desperate enough that people will be ready.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: Yeah,
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: makes sense or not.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: no, it does. And you know, you're speaking, I, I, I would, I would put you and Rob Bell in this, in this same category in the sense of you guys are always like, at least 10 years ahead of where I feel like everybody else is. And, um, you know, I'll reference this in a little bit, but I remember even reading a new kind of Christian in my twenties.
And it was like the first exposure I had to these ideas. And as I look back on my journey now, those ideas seem so basic to me now.
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: Yeah,
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: But I remember then thinking. Holy cow. Like, what do I do with this? And, you know, these ideas and you were just further ahead than I was. It took me some time to catch up and I, I try to remember that, you know, if I'm talking to someone, I'm like, why can't you see this?
You know,
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: Yes.
jeremy_1_11-17-2025_130334: just takes time [00:14:00] for people. But I would say there are people, you know, you bel who, who seem to just be, you're on the, the, the cutting edge of where these ideas are going and that's why you've been so helpful to, you know, myself and to so many other people. So I wanna talk through a number of ideas.
You, I, I, this was a hard interview to, to create because it's like I could go so many directions with it. So I'm gonna try not to overwhelm you with questions, but there's a couple books in particular that have been incredibly, like, just valuable resources for me and for others. And I want to, I want to unpack some of the ideas that I've loved in those.
One of 'em I want to begin with is your book, faith After Doubt. And we have an online community called Rebuilding Faith, where. We, we try to, we try to walk together into something new and, you know, as you talk about, Hey, what will this look like? I think you have to lock arms with people to do that and figure out, okay, let's, let's join together.
And so that's, that's, you know, one attempt at doing that. And we, we go through every, about every two months we'll go through a book [00:15:00] together and have these discussions. And we went through Faith After Doubt. And I'll just tell you from my point of view. None of the books we've gone through had had anything compared to the conversations we had around your book because you are giving language to these, these deep resonances that people had and they didn't know.
They didn't know how to to explain it. And you have this line in the book that I think is so great. You say doubt. Isn't the opposite of faith. It is an element of faith. And then you say this, sometimes I think it is my mission to bring faith to the faithless and doubt to the faithful. I'd love to hear you unpack.
What does that look like for you?
brian-mclaren_1_11-17-2025_150334: Yeah, well, you know, uh, might be a fun way to get into it. Um, Jeremy, we inherited a kind of Christianity that was defined by beliefs. Uh, what Christianity was was a group of people who hold the same beliefs, um, and, uh, [00:16:00] I think a lot of people cannot imagine any other way of defining Christianity. Um, but let me just make a proposal.
What if Christianity is supposed to be defined by desires, not by beliefs? In other words, what really matters is what you desire. Do you desire your neighbor's? Health and wellbeing. Um, do you desire for the world to be the kind of world that would fulfill God's desires? Um, uh, isn't it interesting? You can have all the right beliefs and have the very opposite desires that, that Jesus would probably have, right?
So, uh. Uh, the fact that Christianity got defined by beliefs and not desires is a very, very fascinating thing because faith is not the same as beliefs. Faith is an attitude of trust and faith is an attitude of trust in the absence of certainty. [00:17:00] Um, and, and the fact is human life is uncertain. We don't know if an asteroid is gonna pop out of the, out of space and, you know, knock us out.
We don't know. You know, if some idiot billionaire is going to, you know, trigger a nuclear war. We, we, we, there's so much we don't know, and so we put trust in certain things in the absence of our knowing. Isn't it interesting? Beliefs is a way of short circuiting that and saying, no, no. Here is what you have to know, and what really matters is what you say that you know, or you believe meaning you're certain of, even though you're not certain of it.
So. Uh, so I, I, I think what many of us are struggling with is that we were given Christianity as a set of beliefs, and then we started tinkering with the beliefs, but we never asked a deeper question, what if it isn't supposed to be about beliefs at all? [00:18:00] And, uh. And what I, I try to do in Faith After Doubt is by the time I, you know, present these four stages, and by the time you get to the fourth stage, you realize, you know what really matters isn't belief, it's love.
And of course this was in the Bible all along. Paul says, faith, hope and love are the great lasting qualities, but the greatest is love. Or in Galatians he says, the only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in love. So, uh. Uh, that that was there all along. But isn't it funny we have to go through an awful lot to, to get to the point where, where that we think, oh, he, he actually meant that.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Okay. You just mentioned the four stages, and that was one of the things as we discussed this in the community, that people were just, I mean, this was like, earth shattering stuff to
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: of like, oh my gosh, I'm in this stage. You know? And I, I didn't realize, and so, uh, I found a quote that kind of kind of explains your four stages and then, you know, you can unpack it, but you say [00:19:00] the journey of faith through simplicity. And complexity involves learning and perfecting beliefs, the journey of doubt through perplexity. Stage three involves questioning not only specific beliefs, but the whole belief system approach to faith, which you were just
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Right.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Then the journey into harmony. Stage four is a journey beyond beliefs into revolutionary love,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: what we realized, I don't know if this is what you found in your. Your own feedback of this. We had a whole lot of people in stage three, was what we realized.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: it was like this gathering of a bunch of stage three people that are desperate for stage four harmony
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: we're trying to figure out how do we get there? And that was such a helpful. you know, to kind of think through, uh, unpack that a little bit for someone who maybe isn't familiar with your four stages.
'cause I think this is a gold mine for people on their own journey.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, well, thanks [00:20:00] Jeremy. I, I, uh, you know, I, as I say in the book, I really worked on this because it was helping me, and then when I was a pastor, I would share it with other people. I. So I'm very glad. It, it's, it's helping people. Um, and let me just say two things, uh, about the whole idea of stages first.
Um, I, I, what I did is I integrated the work of a whole lot of other people. Um, you know, some people have two stages, 3, 4, 9, you know, they're, they're all kinds of different, uh, schemas. But when you look at them, almost all of them seem to fall into this kind of. Uh, you know, a similar arc. Um, and, and then the other thing I wanted to say is.
Uh, many people know I, for the last several years I've taught with the Center for Action and Contemplation, um, founded by Father Richard Rohr and cont the [00:21:00] contemplative tradition in Christianity. What's so interesting about it is it's all about stage models. Um, you can go way, way back. There's this work called the Cloud of Unknowing.
It has a four stage model. Then, uh, Theresa of a Avila has in, in, um. Uh, the, uh, uh, in, in her, in her model of these, uh, mansions there, it, it's a journey inward and it's a different stages of journeying inward to the deepest center of things, you know? Um. The interior castle, uh uh, and, and there are lots and lots of other, uh, stage theories that come up in the contemplative trition tradition of Christianity.
And I think the reason that that's significant is that institutional Christianity really has one primary question. Are you in or are you out? So there isn't really growth, there's just a rival and you have a status, but. [00:22:00] Contemp of Christianity is, has always said, no, this you arrival isn't the point.
You're on a journey and the sense that we're on a journey and there are ways you can talk about the phases of a journey. So that I think is, is. Why this rings true people, because the truth is life is a journey. You know, this whole universe is on a journey. Every living thing is on a journey. And so when we take that seriously, it all looks different.
And, and of course this just rings true with so much of what's in the Bible, but not what's in our. The theologies that shape many of us. What's in the Bible is an unfolding story. Things are left behind, new things are embraced. Um, we, you know, Paul writes, we forget what lies behind. We leave it behind and then we move forward.
He says, when I was like, when I was a child, I thought like a child. When I became an adult, I, I put away childish things. So that sense of growth, I think is what. [00:23:00] Rings true is what life does. But we were given this sense that no, you've reached a status. You are orthodox, you are correct, you are conservative, you are Calvinist, you are whatever.
And now your job is to defend and protect your status.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Right.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: different approach to life.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: You know, one of the things that's so cool. About the way you describe it is, you know, you say that it's not that you get to a new stage and then you look back and you judge the people on the other stage. In fact, what I think you do such a good job of teaching empathy. people who are different parts of
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: And just to give you a really cool data point from our, our experience with this, we had one of the, the members of our online community talk about someone had invited him to a, a kind of evangelical worship service with them. And, you know, it wasn't his normal community, but he was friends with this person was like, I'll go with you this weekend. And he's sitting in there and he's just cringing, you know,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: of this stuff. That doesn't resonate with him anymore. It's [00:24:00] not, you know, it's not helpful. But he said he had this epiphany of, if I can get to stage four, then I can make room. To embrace where everyone else is at their journey in this room
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes, yes, yes, yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: this moment where all of a sudden it was like this supernatural empathy came over
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: where he was able to nonjudgmentally realize that this might be what, that that person needs or that person needs and you know, on their thing. And I thought, you know, and he, and he very humbly said, you know, I don't know if this is what stage four looks like, but this was, this was my
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Beautiful.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I thought, what a Beautiful.
Moment of the spirit, but it in large part because you had given terminology for him to understand, okay, I, I'm in stage three. I'm trying desperately to get to
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: and maybe this is how I do it, is by embracing those. And I just thought, what a cool, a cool reaction to these ideas.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: My goodness. That's very encouraging to hear. And that's it. Exactly. And [00:25:00] you and I bet he felt this, I, I know. I felt it in my own experience. It's not like I had the idea of having empathy toward other people. It. I just never had that idea. My mind was shaped by who's right and who's wrong, or who's winning, and who's losing, who's effective, and who's ineffective.
My mind was so shaped by those things, and when you have this moment where you think, oh, that's not the only way to see, um, it, it's, it's like this breakthrough and you couldn't see it before, and now you can, and, and you know it, it doesn't mean you're saying it doesn't matter. Where you are, but it means you can only be where you are until you have the help you need to get some to, to a different place.
And, um, so yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Oh, I think it's so good. have another line. You say Faith before Doubt. It's about correct beliefs. Faith After Doubt. [00:26:00] It's about revolutionary love
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: now. I love that, but I can imagine. A more conservative person might look at that and go, oh, he's saying doctrine doesn't matter. Ideas don't matter.
There's no truth, right? what is your response if someone's going, oh, I love that, but that feels maybe a little dangerous,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: say it's not about correct beliefs. How? How can you help them maybe release a little bit of that need to have these correct beliefs
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: they can better embrace the revolutionary love of God?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, yeah, for first, I understand why people would feel that way, because I felt that way myself, right? That's how I grew up as well. The first thing I, I would say, let's just be playful. I'm not arguing here, but let's just be playful. Isn't it interesting? Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord and don't do the things that I say?
Or he, he talks about people who say, Lord, Lord, and he'll say, I never knew you. Um, so they have the right [00:27:00] word. They're calling Jesus Lord. But having the right words was not the thing that Jesus was really after. Um. Or James Faith without works is dead. You have, you say you believe in God. Well, the devil believes in God, you know?
So, um, uh, uh, James says, faith without works is dead. Um, John says in the New Testament, if you say that you love God, but hate your brother. You are a liar and you don't walk in the truth. Um, and then Paul says, the only thing that matters is faith expressing itself in love. If I have all knowledge, if I have all faith and I have no love, it is nothing.
So the Bible actually says this, but, but people in stage one. Have been trained by authority figures they [00:28:00] trust. 'cause in stage one, we trust authority figures very much and we don't wanna disappoint them. And so we all select the authority figures either that are imposed upon us or we find the ones we like and, and we of course, we believe what they tell us.
Um, but then you go through life and you watch some of those authority figures turn out to be very different than what they s said they were. Or you do everything they tell you and your life still falls apart. Or you do what they tell you and you feel you're, you realize you're hurting people and this doesn't seem right.
So something happens that then says, I might have to think for myself. And when you think I might have to rethink, by the way, that's what the word repent means. Repent means think for yourself. Stop just going along. Don't be conformed to the thought patterns of the world. Have a second thought about the way you've always thought [00:29:00] and then things might look different and, and then you find out, oh, that's what Jesus was talking about.
You know? That's what Paul and John and James were all talking about.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I love it. Yeah, it's a, it's a much better way to experience your faith than trying to get all your beliefs dialed in.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, e especially because you think, you know, if you had gone to Jesus and said, um, Jesus, do you believe in the, uh, hypostatic union, uh, between the three persons, uh, of the trinity? You know, it just wasn't, that wasn't gonna come around for a few hundred more years.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Yeah.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Um, so. Uh, yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Love it. Okay. We're gonna, we're gonna switch to a different book. We're talking about a, a book. Uh, do I Stay Christian?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: a phenomenal title. Can I just say, uh, I'm, I'm impressed you got a publisher to, to go with that one. 'cause that's, that's what a lot of people, [00:30:00] especially listeners of this podcast are like.
Yeah, that's a question you're, you're regularly working
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: you see so much ugliness. in the church. so I wanna unpack a couple of my favorite quotes from this. You said I, I was taught my religion's historical upsides and few of its downsides, and I was taught about other religion's historical downsides and few of their upsides. And then you conclude that's a perfect recipe for creating ignorant and arrogant religious jerks, which I wanna say Amen, my friend. Amen. How, how do we, you, you've already referenced Buddhism, which may be someone you know, you caught their ear when you said that. How? How do we have a more loving approach to people in other religions and not become ignorant and arrogant religious jerks?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, I, I suppose if we look at the downsides of our religion and the upsides of other religions, [00:31:00] it will be a humbling experience for us. Um. Our religion has some pretty horrible downsides happening. I'm sure by the end of the day, we'll find new lows of our, many, of our members of our religion, because we seem to be in a kind of a race to the bottom.
Um, uh, you know, we, we have lots and lots of people who think that, uh, empathy and compassion are toxic. Um, uh, oh my goodness. Just, just amazing. Uh. So if we look at the downsides of our religion through history, we'll just realize that the Christian faith. Has an awful lot of skeletons in its closet. And when you think, why didn't anybody tell me this before?
Um, oh my goodness. You know, then you have this wake up, uh, that, that, and, and it's not that you're necessarily doubting Jesus. It's not necessarily that you're saying, I think Jesus is wrong. It's that you're [00:32:00] saying the version of the religion in which I was introduced to all this. Either the people who taught me were ignorant, but why were they ignorant?
Because the people who taught them were ignorant. And what does it say about a religion that doesn't wanna face the truth about its past? You know, it's something you gotta love about the Bible, whether it's the Hebrew scriptures where they talk about their, how many times they turn to a idolatry, and how many of their kings were.
Terrible kings and how even their best kings were horrible people in many ways. So this, you know, this telling the truth about our past is important. And then we look at the upsides of other religions and, um, one of the best things we can do is stop letting people of our religion tell us what other religions are about.
And we can actually listen to people of other religions tell us what they love about their religion, um, and why it meet. Why it's meaningful to them and how it's helped them. Um, so, and [00:33:00] when that happens, it doesn't mean we give up on our religion, but it just means we hold it with a greater sense of humility and less arrogance toward people of other faiths.
Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: As I'm listening to you say that I'm even thinking about. You know, so many people when they, when they define, you know, you talked about, don't hear about other religions from people in your religion, right? Let let the other people say, which means you have to meet them.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: some contact with them, you know, at, at a minimum you have to read something, I suppose, that they wrote or watch something.
But better would be to actually meet a, a Buddhist to meet, you know, someone who's following Islam. You know, like, meet these people. Ask them, and you know, it, it strikes me as the same reason why. This fear in the United States, uh, around immigration and, you know, this, this demonizing rhetoric of there are illegal people and they are the threat, you know, and, and
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Whereas, you know, I wanna say to people like, who do you actually [00:34:00] know?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: have you ever sat down with someone who. Moved here to, to flee a situation or to come here for a better life. Like, have you actually heard why they did that? How they did that, what they're trying to do? And it's such a different, a different perspective than when we just say no.
We as Americans are gonna be the ones to tell you what, what these immigrants
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Can I just tell you a quick story about that, Jeremy, as you say that? So I live in Southwest Florida, and when I first moved here. Um, one of my neighbors had hired somebody, uh, to do some yard work for her, and um, his name was Roberto and he was from Mexico and he didn't have proper papers, but he was a good worker.
And one day she called me and she said, could you come over here? I'm having trouble speaking with Roberto. I don't speak any Spanish. He doesn't speak any English. Usually we can communicate and said, I know you speak a little Spanish. So I came over and translated. First time I met Roberto and then I had him do [00:35:00] some work for me.
And then we became friends and one day, uh, I said, Hey, can I take you out to lunch? So we went out to lunch and he told me his life story. Norto is the first person I met. I've traveled all around the world. I've been in 40 some countries. First person I've ever met who is illiterate in, in span, in his first language.
Um, he never went to school once in his whole life. He, uh, his mother had a whole lot of children by a lot of different men, and when he was 15, he was on his own and he, um, and he's been totally on his own. Never went to school, never learned to read, never learned to write. If you'd ask him for his phone number, he had it written down on a piece of paper in his wallet.
He'd have to show it to you because he just, it was not something he knew how to do. Um, but Norberto. Truly was one of the best human beings I've ever met. He, the reason he was in America was that he had, uh, a couple of daughters, um, uh, [00:36:00] uh, by the same woman. So he's a step ahead of. His mother, um, uh, and one of his daughters told him she wanted to go to college.
He was a bus driver, just lived on subsistence pay in, um, in southern Mexico. And the day she told him that she wanted to go to college, he said, I will go to America. So he snuck up here, got here worked odd jobs, worked from morning to night, rented uh, one room in somebody's house, spent only the absolute necessity on himself, and sent all of his money to his daughter.
And he one day came and knocked on my door and, uh, said in Spanish, of course. Brian, I wanted to say goodbye. My daughter graduated from college and I'm going home now, and I just thought, here is a human being who is a good man. You know, and when [00:37:00] I hear people make slurs on immigrants, it's just, as you say, if you ever got to no one, um, you know, you, well, it, it would be a different story.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Yeah. A, a word of caution to, to all of us, not, not to let our own, our own tribe define other tribes
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: my goodness. Oh my goodness. Yes. That's it.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: out there and, And meet people.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: And I should just tell, I should just add, you know, there's this theory, it was the it, it came from this French anthropologist named Rene Gerard. And Rene Gerard. I won't go into his whole theory, but it, I think it's something for people to think about. He said, uh.
When? When people hate each other, the way they find unity with each other is by finding somebody else to focus their anxiety on.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: scapegoat.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Scapegoat, uh, process. He called it scapegoat mechanism. And when authoritarian leaders wanna amass power and unite people behind it, the way they [00:38:00] do it, it is they find some people to project all of their fears and anxieties and blame.
Upon and if people understood that we'd be in a very different world right now. But people have a lot of anxiety and when somebody comes along and gives them somebody to blame for their anxiety, it's, it's like a drug. It really is like a, a, you know, snorting cocaine or something. It just gives you a high, now I know what to do with my anxiety.
I'll blame it on somebody.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: And the sad, sad thing to me about that brain is that it works and it
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: and it will
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: work.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: It's this psychological glitch. Yep.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: with it. The Bible is filled with it, you
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: can we not get out of this? This was the point of Jesus saying, look, put it on me and then move on.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: need to keep doing this
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: to free us from this cycle.
And
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: you know, we just keep getting stuck. I love that you brought up Gerard. I was gonna ask you if you were a fan of Mimetic theory when you started talking about [00:39:00] desire earlier, but I was trying to, I was trying to stay focused.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes. Well, and in fact, something that we could nerd out on Rene Ard, but something he didn't talk about much. He talked a lot about the negative desire when we have rival rival risk, desire, or. Desires. Desires that set us to be rivals with one another. But there is also positive desire and, um, and that I think is what is waiting for us to be explored.
You know, I, I don't know what I, I have two writing projects I'm working on now, but after that I'm not sure what I'm going to do. But, um, if I continue writing, uh, I think I might wanna write about liturgy and, and think about and maybe write liturgies. As ways of building positive desires, so.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I love it. me up. All right, one more quote from, do I say, Christian, you say Our religion. Can healthify us [00:40:00] is a great phrase by inspiring in us, an impenetrable sense of rightness or even superiority. Our religion is right, we believe, which makes us right. As a result, the more devoted we are, the more stubborn and unteachable we become, and everyone can see it but us because we are blinded by our sincerity. And zeal,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: which is is so such a profound insight. And yet that's so sad to me because you have people who can be incredibly passionate. Like I've met some Christians. I'm like, do believe you love Jesus and you are doing your very best. To follow him. However, the way that you are doing this is creating so much damage in your life and in everyone else, but you, you, you wanna
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: the, the zeal, the passion is there,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: but as you're describing, when it's wrapped up in this mentality of I'm right. Then it, you know, it turns you into this kind of monstrous person. How, how do you think we help people? If, if maybe you, [00:41:00] you know, you hear that quote and someone comes to mind of, you're like, oh, that's my neighbor, that's
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Hmm.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: that's, you know, this person that sends me emails every week. Um, how do we help people navigate that when the, the zeal is there?
It's good, that passion is good, but it's, it's turning them into this kind of monstrous version of themselves.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah, it's not easy. It's really not easy. Um, because what tends to happen is people who are in that zone are following leaders who are stirring up more and more, zeal and more and more passionate of a certain type. If you criticize them or criticize their teachers, they'll just think you're of the devil.
Um, so I I, I'm a big believer in the power of a non-directive statement. Um, by non-directive, I mean, you're not telling anybody what to do. Um, you're, you're just announcing something. Um, and, and often it's even more [00:42:00] powerful if it's vulnerable. Um, so you might say something like. I used to see things the way you do.
I don't see 'em that way anymore. Uh, you probably wouldn't be interested in finding out why, because why would you want to know what a heretic or an apostate person as you would think about me? But if you're ever curious, I'd be glad to share it with you. So, you know, you, you basically give them permission to think of you as a heretic and or in apostate apostate, and you aren't resentful about it.
You just understand that's. With there being good soldiers in their army, but then you make them an offer. If you'd ever like to ask me, I'd be glad to talk to you about it.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I, I love that it, it strikes me as just throwing a lifeline to someone saying like, look, it's there. And, and maybe it, it takes a moment for something to happen in their life before they, they want that. But I love extending that. Um. That's a great image of just extending that out there. Like,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yeah. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I'm [00:43:00] here, and if there ever comes a time you want to talk to a heretic about that.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: You know, u using our, our fourth, uh, our four stages, uh, language. Again, when someone's in stage one, they're very, very zealous. Um, and, and not very open-minded. Um, because open-mindedness is seen as a sin and they're already right. Why be open-minded to wrong ideas? Um, uh. Uh, it, it, it seems to me when that's where people are, we know it's going to take some hard things in life for them to change.
They're gonna have to be hurt or they're gonna have to hurt someone, or something's going to have to happen for them, um, to change. So if what we can do is gently give them some awareness that we are not ashamed and we're not defensive, and we don't have to convince them we're right. We're giving them something that they're incapable of giving, which is, um, a gracious difference.[00:44:00]
Uh, and that just sort of messes with your mind and makes you think, and that's a good thing. I, I think this is why Jesus told parables, um, parables would take people in their imagination and put them in this conundrum where two of their absolutes were in opposition. Um. Uh, and uh, and, and he would just let those stories set.
And if they did their work, the person might go through a process where then they were ready to think differently.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I love that. You know, as you were saying that, it makes me think of how many parents I've seen that. Come, come down really hard on the L-G-B-T-Q conversation and very rigid and you know, this is, this is an abomination and all that. then one of their kids comes out to
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: and all of a sudden they have this, this turmoil and you know, they can go either direction with it. It's, do I hold the line the way I did when [00:45:00] this was a theoretical idea to me?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Or do I acknowledge this is a person that I deeply love
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I may have to revisit this
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: way? And you know, as you've seen, no doubt, not everybody chooses to lean into these moments. But I'm always so touched by the people that do.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: you know what, I, I think I, I might have missed this one. And I was always this stance and here's this person who I deeply love that doesn't fit this narrative that I've been, you know, preaching for years of, they just want to go sin and, you know, do all
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: like, no, now it doesn't fit.
And they have to, to do it. And what I love is like they need people around them in
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes, yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: They need the heretics right to
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: on in. Hey, we've, we, we've been waiting for you. Like, we'll help you make sense of this now. And I love the idea of how do we, and I love your phrase, how do we be a gracious difference for people?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: just, Hey, we're just gonna be there. And when the, the moment's ready, when the spirit [00:46:00] moves and things click for you, we want to be ready for that. That is a beautiful image.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: You know, the, the phrase courage, uh, and difference, uh. Was a gift to me from an African theologian from the Congo. His name is Mabiala Kenzo, and Kenzo was telling me once years ago, you know, what is it like to be a black African theologian who has to think very, very deeply about Christian theology, but also with the awareness that white Christian theology created the colonialism that has so hurt his people and his continent.
Uh, as well as many other continents and people and, um, he said. African theologians have to learn the courage to differ graciously. And I just think that's, it takes courage. You have to differ, but you can do it graciously. And uh, so that's where, that's where that came from. But imagine what it'd be like to be African and see all these [00:47:00] arrogant white Americans and Europeans who are oblivious to the harm their religion has done that you've seen your, you know, in, in your homeland.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Yeah.
that's, that's powerful. Okay, we're, we're gonna follow up on one more book. I have not read this book yet, but I'm super intrigued by it. like I mentioned earlier, I read your new kind of Christian trilogy. I think I was in my mid twenties. I think it, as I recall, and I, I can't remember the years they were published as I recall it. This was the first series I read once I graduated seminary. I could just read whatever I wanted. No more assigned books.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: And, you know, I really enjoyed my undergrad because it, it started to plant seeds of, there are other ideas out there. I
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: enough, you know, where I was like, okay, I really wanted, I wanna start exploring.
And I'm a second generation preacher's kid, literally grew up in the pew. So I've been around the whole thing.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I, I had enough, uh, awareness that there were ideas I didn't know about that I was starting to get this inkling of, hey, [00:48:00] there's. There's some traditions I'm not familiar with, I remember reading those and like I said, I was so. like moved by them, but also perplexed. 'cause I, I just, I, it, it was, it was good for me, but I wasn't there yet. I wasn't
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: just, you know, embrace 'em.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: the fact that you did it in a story
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: was brilliant because it softens it, you know,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: not this, here are the, here are the, the ways to think about this.
It's, Hey, you're gonna follow this journey, you know, in these conversations. And at some moments you might relate with this character and other moments you're relating with that character and you're going in and outta the dialogues and all of that I thought was so good. And so I, I, I saw that you just recently released another fictional book
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Hmm.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Last Voyage.
Now I have not read this, so
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: to it, but I'm fascinated by this and I'm going to go dive back into it. What can you tell us about this novel and maybe why you're, you're, you're back in, back at it with fiction.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah, so almost 25 years later, I'm coming back to, uh, to starting a fiction trilogy because [00:49:00] this is the first of three. Um, I actually started writing this the day after the election in 2016. And, uh, when I realized that American voters elected a billionaire, uh, of questionable morals. To run the country.
It just said to me how much power money had. And um, and I thought, what happens if billionaires rule the earth? Um, and so, uh, I thought, I'm gonna write a science fiction novel, and I didn't know what it was gonna be. I, but my starting point was what happens 30 years from now if billionaires get more and more power?
And of course, I know it's hard to imagine a world where billionaires buy lots of cable news stations and then buy newspapers.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I'm trying to use my imagination, Brian.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah. And then buy, uh, social media platforms and, uh, and then managed to shut [00:50:00] down huge parts of the government showing their great power. Um, and, uh, but if you project this ahead, where would it lead?
And so, um, the, the storyline that emerged. Um, is that two, uh, of these oligarchs, incredibly rich billionaires who have the chance to try to remake the world more and more to their liking. Um, they don't want to play that game. And they think these, our fellow oligarchs are fellow, fellow billionaires are going to destroy the world, climate change, nuclear weapons, who knows what, they're gonna destroy the world.
And so they become interested in a Mars voyage. Uh, and of course there is another billionaire we all know who has, uh, has been talking about a Mars voyage for a long time. This is the very opposite kind of people who team up to try to do this. And, um, and they're, what they're interested in is a, an assurance [00:51:00] colony and meaning if, if there was a cataclysmic event on earth, uh, we need to get something established on Mars.
Of course it's not a billionaire thinking. He's, you know, gonna save things. It's other billionaires saying These billionaires are gonna destroy everything. And, um, and so that's the setting for the, for the novel. Um, what happens is a problem turns up on this colony. It's a one-way trip. So when you go, when you're recruited and you go, you know, you're not coming back.
Um, and. Uh, something goes wrong and, uh, that's why it's called the last voyage. Um, something's going wrong on earth, something's going wrong on Mars, and they have time to send one more voyage to try to, uh, address the, the problems. And, and, um, one of the things they realize is they have been. Perfect in their technical, uh, problem solving.
Um, you [00:52:00] know, the engineering is flawless, but it's the human element that they have missed. And so they now need to send some artists and a theologian and some, uh, musicians and, and people who are interested in plants and animals, not just for food, but because they think, hold it. We, human beings need our fellow creatures.
So that's sort of the setting of the, uh, of the trilogy.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I love it. I'm hooked. Um, I'm curious, how, how would you describe what is, what is writing fiction like for you compared to the other stuff you write?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, um, I'll tell you, when I wrote a new kind of Christian 25 years ago almost, um, I was writing it 25 years ago, um, what I realized is when you're writing nonfiction, you have to have in your mind an imaginary reader. And if you're imaginary reader is smart, um, then your imaginary reader is going to challenge everything you say.
And I think you [00:53:00] become a good writer when you say, I don't wanna. Confuse my imaginary reader. I, and I don't wanna leave questions unanswered, and I don't wanna, you know, I, I wanna be careful. I want to treat my imaginary reader with respect and bring them on a journey and answer their objections and, and so on.
Um, but what that can mean sometimes is your books can be very, very, very long if you're gonna handle every possible objection. When you throw a group of characters together, you put them in a predicament and then you see what they're going to do. You only have to ans this character only has to answer the question this character would ask.
And, and it in some ways it, it makes things, uh, uh, I think it, it allows you to go places faster than you could go otherwise.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: That's interesting. How, so you're obviously writing to try to communicate theology and certain ideas. do you, how do you mentally do that? When you're writing these characters, are you thinking. [00:54:00] Like, Hey, you know, this is the good character that's gonna, you know, be, do you, do you see yourself in characters where this is,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Hmm.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: this guy's saying all the things that I'd wanna say? Or do you, do you see yourself in all the characters in different ways?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah. In different ways I see myself in all the characters. Yeah. Um, and I, I'm not really trying, I, I suppose what I bring to writing fiction, even in the new kind of Christian that was very content heavy, you know? But, um, uh, but I. What I'm doing is not really trying to illustrate ideas in a story. I'm really trying because I have a theological background.
I see theology interwoven with all of life, but also sex and ego and money and, you know, depression and all kinds of other things are interwoven with life. Um, when you only write about theology, you almost act as if. Sex and depression and money and power and all kinds of other things don't exist, right?[00:55:00]
Um, or they only exist through your, your lens. But when you work with fiction, all of them are just part of life. And so that's something I, I'm enjoying a lot at this stage of my life.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: That's cool. I'm looking forward to, to reading that. All right. I want to transition. I want to ask you a few questions that we like to ask each of the guests, and then we get to compare your answers to everybody else's answers. So we get to see how Brian McLaren
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Oh, okay.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: So we'll do a couple wine questions. If I were to ask you, if. What is the best glass of wine
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Oh.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: ever had in your life? Is there one memory, one story that comes to mind? Is it because of the type of wine? Is it the setting? Is it who you're with? Do you have anything that comes to mind when you go? That was, that was wine as good as I have ever experienced it.
What? What do you have?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Okay. Um, can I tell you two quick stories? Um, one of them was not, I wouldn't say it was my favorite [00:56:00] wine, but someone brought me a bottle of wine from Germany once and they told me it was a very unusual wine because it, um. The, the, the, a little bit like you, your wine with the blood oranges, apparently this wine had hops in it or, or some beer like elements.
And I just remember drinking that wine. I thought, this is the perfect marriage of wine and beer
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Oh, cool.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: I've never been able to find that wine again. So, uh, so that, that's, and I, I wouldn't say it was my favorite, but it was sure. Interesting. And it stays with me. Um. I, I had a, have a friend who, uh, who was about my age, and he died a few years ago.
And, um, of course I didn't know it would be his, our last birthday we happened to be together on his birthday, and he really was a wine aficionado and we went to a restaurant and [00:57:00] to, to celebrate his birthday. He, he bought a really expensive, uh, bottle of, uh, of, uh. Cabernet, and I just remember sharing that bottle with him and thinking this was worth the money.
This was so
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: good.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: amazing and interesting and perfect and multilayered. And of course, the fact that he. He had a fast, uh, um, moving form of cancer that took his life, uh, not too long after, sort of makes that even more intense. But re remembering, enjoying that bottle with him and, uh, two other friends at a table, uh, one night was a great memory.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: What a, what a sweet memory to, to have with your, your last memory with a friend
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: an amazing bottle of wine.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I love that.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: And he was being good to himself like, it's my birthday, I'm gonna be good to myself. So it was good.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: gotta splurge for that nice bottle and
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: All right. We're gonna get your, your take on [00:58:00] church history here. Which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you? And who would you not trust and why?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Okay. Um. Well, I love St. Francis, but I have a feeling he wouldn't want us to have a really, really good bottle of wine, so that, that'd probably be a problem. Um, I'll tell you who comes to mind. She didn't drink wine, she drank beer. But St. Bridget, very ancient. You know, in in early Celtic history, uh, St.
Bridget, um, has this beautiful. A little prayer, meditation, she's, or poem. She said, I would like to have a vat of beer and share it with all my friends. And Jesus would be there and we'd share it with him too. I she'd be a nice person to drink with.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I feel good about that. Who are you not trusting? [00:59:00] Who are you not asking to pick that bottle out for you?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, I'm not trusting St. Francis because I, I, even though I love him dearly, I just think he would pick, pick the cheapest wine he could find because. He wouldn't want the money to be, uh, wasted.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: That's great. All right, well done. I like it. All right. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Um, I used to believe the Bible is, has one message and now I think the Bible. It's full of arguments. It's not contradictions, it's arguments. And those arguments are way better than if it all just had one message. The arguments show us people learning and growing and interacting over time.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Hmm. That's great. What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, I mean, American Christianity has been a racist [01:00:00] project from the beginning. Either intentionally racist, you know, and we have to realize the Southern Baptist, the Southern Presbyterians, um, uh, who are now the PCA, you know, many of our main denominations came into existence. There were the Southern Methodists who rejoined and created the United Methodists, but they just separated again.
Um, these. Represent forms of Christianity that came into being to justify racism and slavery. I mean, it's, it's staggering that this is our history, but even the, the other denominations, part of the ways they prospered was by never complaining, um, because it wasn't just the south that profited from slavery.
It was the north, because the north was full of all the. Cotton, uh, mills that, uh, were were, you know, turning that cotton into fabric and both north and south collaborated in [01:01:00] the extermination and, and relocation and land theft of the indigenous people. So I, I just don't believe American Christianity ever had a good period.
I think it's been a very, uh, conflicted. Dishonest, uh, troubled project in most of its forms, not all of its forms. Obviously, you know, the Quakers I think, have a little better history than some others do. The black churches that were trying to survive, um, rather than perpetuate slavery, you know, they, they have a lot to teach, I think.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Yeah. What is something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Oh, I have been reading this Japanese socialist philosopher, economist named Kogen Katani, K-A-R-A-T-A-N-I, who wrote a book called The Structure of World History. And I'm so intrigued by his insights [01:02:00] into what he calls modes of exchange that that shapes civilization. And here he is a, a socialist, I think an atheist.
Um. Uh, and he basically says, our current form of economy that is capitalism built on top of, uh, authoritarianism. Um. Uh, that this will destroy us. And so we need a new form of economy, a new mode of exchange. And he said the only place we can get it is from our spiritual traditions. It's so fascinating. Um, he's basically saying, we need the spiritual traditions to wake up and give us, uh, something to save us, you know, from our current system.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Interesting. What was the title of that book?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Uh, the structure of world history, um, it's a very difficult book to read. It's worth it if you have the time and energy, but if you go online, um, you can see on YouTube a lot of people are summarizing [01:03:00] his thoughts and he gives some lectures on, on it that are more accessible.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I love, I love a good book recommendation. What is a problem that you're trying to solve?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, um. I, I think one of the problems I'm banging my head against the wall with is that the only open forms of Christianity open to change right now that aren't trying to go back into the past but wanna move forward are progressive Catholicism, progressive Protestantism. There's also a progressive movement in Orthodoxy.
A little harder, a little more difficult to. Let's see, but it's there. Um, but how do these forms of Christianity break out to get on with their work? Um, rather than feel they have to bring the institution along with them, which just isn't gonna happen in,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Hmm,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: a short enough time spent.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: interesting. something you're excited [01:04:00] about right now?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, I'm beginning a sabbatical and, um, I'm not, I'm not doing any, uh. Public speaking next year. And um, so, uh, I'm very much looking forward to letting things settle and seeing what comes to the surface.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Very cool. All right, Brian, is there anything else that you want to add that I haven't asked you about, but we could not close this conversation out without addressing?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, I wanna ask you, tell me about your favorite. Uh, wine that you've ever had?
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: wine I've ever had. Okay, so Pinot Noir is my favorite go-to wine and in, in Oregon in particular, that's my, that's my go-to. But I would say my wife and I, a few years back, were able to take a Bordeaux River cruise to France and we, I mean, just fell in love. the wines you can have when you're at a winery [01:05:00] are very different than the wines
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: commercially.
So when
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: and you're having, you know, wines that they made there,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: the kind of stuff that you can even get, you know, in the states. And so we are having wines that are just blowing me away. But there was one in particular, there was one night they, uh, the, the cos kind of offloaded us to this Chateau had this amazing dinner and, uh, they had four wines, uh, at this dinner.
And it was one of those, I've never had a dinner like this where. There was servers just watching your glass. So they would pour you a wine if you drank that, they would come immediately after and re refill it for you. So, I mean, it was just one of those, like the wine was flowing and you were not gonna sit with it.
No one had an empty glass at any point. And so if you were on number one and you drank it, they would pour number one by the time they got to number two. You know, if you drink it, they're pouring you number two again, until they get to them. We get to the last, so I, I'd had a good amount of wine, right? I'm, I'm sober, I can remember it, but I had had a generous portion. get to the fourth one and it was, and [01:06:00] they had saved their big boy for last, which very much, you know, the story of, of Jesus. You
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes. Yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: way? I remember having this glass. Sitting there in France at this chateau with my wife. I had just had this unbelievable, you know, five course dinner type thing with wine that was, you know, just flowing and such a generosity of wine.
Like, normally even if you're sharing, you know, wine with people, it's like, okay, at one bottle, you know, is about four glasses. So, you know, if you sharing a bottle with two people each have two glasses. Like, there's always, you're always kind of mindful of, I wanna make sure everyone has enough. To have a dinner where that was completely out of it.
It was
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes, yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: an issue
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: just a lavishness. And then to get to that fourth one, and I, I, and it was one of those, I tried to buy a bottle and bring it home and it was like, we don't have enough to, to send this. You know, this is kind of like, this is the only time you can have it. So then it was like a rarity of like, I'm
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Wow.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: this right here.
I'm never gonna have this again. [01:07:00] And that to me was like, that was all the stars aligned. My favorite wine drinking memory.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Oh, I love it. I love it.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: one a lot.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Thanks for sharing it. It, you know, as you were saying that, I was thinking we have that phrase, make love not war, right? Uh, there's so many great things people can make. Instead of war. Make love, not war. Make music, not war. Make wine not, not war. If we would turn away from violence and hatred, we can make some beautiful stuff.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I totally agree. And you know, an elder one time when I was a lead pastor, I had an elder. He, he always used to say, food is just fuel. So if, you know, if he and I go out to lunch, I'd be like, Hey, where do you wanna go? He is like, I don't care. It's just fuel. And I remember thinking like, what a sad way.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yeah,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: yes, food is fueling our bodies there. That is, that is
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yeah.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: of it, it, it just ignored beauty and it
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Uh
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: and
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: uh, uh, uh.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: joy. And I remember always having like this rub with, you know, food is just fuel. And so I agree with [01:08:00] you. I love it when you get to enjoy someone who's put a passion into
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: I, I can't make wine. I don't know how to do this. I understand the concepts, but I'm not out there doing it. So when I
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: someone
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes, yes, yes,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: And then when you're
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: yes.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: and it's like, oh man, so good.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: That's so good.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: That's why we,
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: I.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: a podcast, Cabernet and pray. We talk about wine and
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: I love it. I love it.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: how they
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: It all,
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Brian.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: all goes together.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: All right. If someone has been living under a rock and they don't know how to connect with you and they've never heard of your work, but now they're going, I like this guy. I gotta dive into this. What's the easiest way for people to connect with what you're doing?
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Um, my website is brian mclaren.net, B-R-I-A-N-M-C-L-A-R-E n.net and all my links to social media. And I have a podcast that I do called Learning How to See and um, and yeah, they can find out what's going on with me there.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: [01:09:00] Excellent. I'll put that in the show notes for all of you guys. And Brian, I just gotta tell you, this has been an absolute joy. I have been hugely shaped by your work from afar, and so to have the chance to sit down with you 15, 20 years later, uh, is, is a real joy and a treat, and you have given so much life, so much encouragement, so much hope to so many of us who, uh, have been beat up by this stuff.
So thank you for taking the time with us today, and thank you for all the work that you're doing.
brian-mclaren_2_11-17-2025_151828: Well, thanks, I, it's been a pleasure for me and thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it in the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. Uh, you know, if people become connoisseurs of, of a good heart, um, this will take us, uh, where we, where we need to go.
jeremy_2_11-17-2025_131828: Amen. I love that. Well, everybody, I hope you have enjoyed this episode as much as I have, and we will see you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray. Bye [01:10:00] friends.
