Beyond Deconstruction (with James McGrath) | Ep. 63

December 31, 2025

What comes after deconstruction? In this episode, I sit down with James McGrath to talk about what it looks like to move beyond tearing faith down and begin the slower, braver work of rebuilding it with honesty, humility, and curiosity. We wrestle with Bible scholarship, doubt, certainty, and why faith that looks like Jesus may require fewer answers and more courage. If you’ve ever felt stuck between what you can no longer believe and what you’re not sure you can believe yet, this conversation is an invitation to keep going.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/TGCzj4O5w0g

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Links:

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Episode Transcript

Beyond Deconstruction (with James McGrath) | Ep. 63
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[00:00:00] This is Steve from the Rebuilding Faith Online community. I joined this community because like many, I found myself increasingly disillusioned with the traditional church. All too often, their teaching seemed to be at odds with what I believe to be Jesus's message of unconditional love. I was looking for a safe place I could learn and grow in my faith journey along with others on a similar journey, a place where I could freely explore questions, doubts, and different perspectives without judgment.

I love the inspirational podcast and insightful comments from fellow community members. My favorite has been the book Reading Challenges. I love exploring contemporary authors alongside my fellow community members and realizing I'm not alone. I feel closer to Jesus than I have in a long time.

Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith.

And today we are talking with a New Testament scholar about his upcoming book. This is with James McGrath. He's the Clarence l Goodwin, professor of New [00:01:00] Testament Language and Literature at Butler University, and he's teaching some cool classes there.

As he references in the episode.

He's the author of the book Beyond Deconstruction, building a More Expansive Faith, which releases February 3rd. He is a Sunday school teacher and a piano player at Crooked Creek Baptist Church in Indianapolis, and he is a science fiction author, blogger, so he's equal parts into fandom of certain things and deep theology as well.

And we had just a delightful conversation and one that I thought was very hopeful. And so if you need a good dose of hope in your world today. I think this episode might provide it for you. This is episode 63 Beyond Deconstruction.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would've no idea. [00:02:00] Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.

Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at Universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.

How if I get a little loopy. It's your follow up. You told me to drink it. I just show up. I'll also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.

We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna [00:03:00] talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way You're doing it in the. Beautiful positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.

It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that. Very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.

You had me with herbaceous notes. I want you to know I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.

It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy, by the way, drinking this peanut regio at [00:04:00] three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. It makes sense now.

Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Well, we are ready for another episode, and I am joined today by James McGrath. James, welcome to Cabernet and pray.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Thanks for having me on the show. Great to be with you.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: We've got a lot of talk about today, but as always, we're gonna start with what we've got in our glasses and we're gonna enjoy some fine wine on today's episode.

Hopefully, you are able to as well, Dear listener if you are not driving or running or doing exercise, uh, as I know some of you do that today I am enjoying a Robert Craig Affinity 2021 Cabernet Sauvignon. This is a blend from Napa Valley [00:05:00] and it's a little homage to a Bordeaux blend 'cause it's primarily, it's like 75%, I think I was reading Cabernet, and then the secondary grape is Merlott, so it's a Bordeaux blend, which I'm a big fan.

of. Um, I've talked about that before, but it's a great day drinker. And so I often compare, you know, cabernet, big boy wines, like, do you need a piece of steak with it?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: it?

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: And I don't have a piece of steak. I've already had lunch. so this, is, this is going down smooth, It's perfectly balanced, great flavors. I'm enjoying it.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: it.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: what I'm drinking. James, what do you got in your glass?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: glass? So, for a long time, uh, my wife and I have had as a particular favorite, um, a variety of wine known as Montepulciano d Bruso. and a lot of people know the, uh, Montepulciano wine, um, grape variety, and it's just, we, we discovered it as I think people often do, uh, thanks to Trader Joe's having this variety of selections that, you know, uh, often at affordable [00:06:00] prices.

Uh, but yeah, I've, I've been to the, the region, Italy, where, where the, the wine comes from and, you know, came home with some bottle. Um, and you know, to be honest, the, the Trader Joe's one that's quite affordable is, is not bad. So if you've never had a man Ian with Deza, it's, it has, it has that sort of fruitiness but is not either overly tart or over, you know, it's, it's, it's a nice, has a nice balanced flavor.

Uh, can you compliment what I'm saying with some more technical descriptions from a sort, an expert that go beyond probably my ability? Yeah. There's some areas where I have expertise. I am fully cognizant that this is not, um, one, at least as far as sort of technical terminology's concerned.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: So I would say for most people, if they try that, they might find it, you know, more like minerality based than what they're used to.

So a lot of these kind of wines are not as fruit forward as some Americans are used to, is what I've found. And so I think they're really delightful, but you're kind of going to [00:07:00] advance level. here, James, And, uh, so most people don't, they don't come out with what you're, you're bringing, so I'm appreciating it, and You get kudos for what you brought to the Table. today.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Wow. Uh, what should I say? Thank you Treater Joe's for introducing me to this type of wine. You know, it's like, uh, yeah. I mean, I do tend to, you know, it's interesting, you know, even when it comes to, when it comes to beers, when it comes to most things, know, I want them, I want them to be interesting, you know?

Uh, and, you know, there are a lot of people for whom, you know, it's like, I like IPAs, I like stouts, I like whatever, you know, I, I, I like stouts, I like those, those sort of, you know, multi okie, those kinds of flavors. And I, I'm sure that's reflected, you know, across my, uh, varieties of wines. I jump from there to IPAs, you know, because like the stuff that's in between, a lot of it is just like, eh, you know, it's just not all that interesting, right?

I'd rather have a very different but interesting flavor than that. It just be sort of b.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: So I hear you, but I can't do it [00:08:00] with beer. Because like an IPAI just have never been able to get on board with, but what you're saying, I apply wholeheartedly to white wines. So I think Most white wines can be very boring.

So like a chardonnay, a pinot GRI to me, they're fine. I'll drink. 'em, You know, if that's what we're drinking, but it's, it's not interesting.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: would go to like a Sauvignon Blanc that's got acidity or a Riesling that's got a little bit of residual sugar. To me, those are interesting, you know, white wines.

Um, so I, I love the idea of like, let's not just drink the average stuff. Let's find some stuff, with flavor. But man, IPAs, I, just, I

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: yeah.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: developed that yet.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: No. Well, I think I, I was lucky enough and some, some of them really are terrible, so I understand. But, um, you know, had ones where it, it had that kind of sort of grapefruit sort of, you know, aspect to it.

It just managed to do it at least reasonably well. Yeah. But, but some of, some of them are quite atrocious. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm with you. When it comes to white wines Love Re Rieslings and I recall liking it, [00:09:00] I haven't had it for a long time 'cause it was shared with me by, uh, somebody who's from a Austria, but, um, Leb Frow milk,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Huh?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: have you come across that

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: No.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Uh, I think it's, yeah, I mean the Leb Frow is one of the, the, the mountains in Austria and so it's a sort of a, a local specialty. So I think the reason I've never had it is they probably brought it with them from where they're

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: um, it's just one of those things.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: probably Not at Trader Joe's,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: no, no, I don't think so.

Yeah.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: I mean. My, my wife is from Romania, so, you know, on the one hand I've had some Romania wines, which not always the, the strongest ones that are served for export, but that's really the one place where I've been able to have, like, have made wine at home with their own grapes and done their own thing.

And, you know, it's a whole other, um, experience than, you know, drinking things from a bottle. And so,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Sure.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: um,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Well, there you go. All right, well cheers to you, James. and Cheers to our listeners, if you are able to enjoy a glass with us today.[00:10:00]

Okay. Before we get into the, the good stuff, I want to talk about theology, beer, camp.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Okay.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: And if you're listening to this and you're thinking, I'm, I'm making stuff up, that is a real thing.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: thing.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I, I have known about it for years. I've never been to it. I went to it this past year was my first one, and I saw you at it.

I, I never ran into you. I saw you from afar. There was one session, I think it was the AI session that we were both sitting in, and I was like, all right, I'm gonna go talk to you after this. And then you left early, so I never got to talk to you.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: I never to talk to you.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Um, but we're making up for all that now. Uh, I'd love to hear what's your take on Theology beer camp?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah, and by all means, I mean, we should probably start with, you know, first of all, I thought, you know, we were already into the good stuff, you know, but I'm glad to hear this is gonna be even better.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: There we go.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: we go. Also, I mean, you know, this is Trip Fuller's brainchild. I don't think he'd mind if somebody was like, you know, we need theology wine camp.

You know, and so [00:11:00] I think there's room, you know, uh, have it in Arizona. I don't think they've done theology beer camp there yet. And, you know, just, yeah, this could be a thing.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: There's room for it. Yeah,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: absolutely. But theology beer camp is, has just been a fascinating experience. So this was my third time going. Yeah. And I was sitting in the AI session and finding it fascinating and I can't remember, uh.

When I go to these events, or I'm constantly egg texts from people who are like, oh yeah, I need to talk to you, or, you know, stuff like that. Uh, and I remember there was one session that I was really interested, um, interested in, but somebody sort of sent me a text and I snuck out a bit early to, uh, try and connect with them.

But yeah, went to it thinking this is gonna be fun. It'll probably be frivolous. Um, the first one I went to had a, the Star Wars theme, and second, the one after that was, uh, Tolkien, and then last year was Monty Python. I fully expected you to say, you, you, you saw me from afar when I was wearing the Black Knight Helmet in the skit.

uh, [00:12:00] which hopefully you did see that. But, uh, yeah, I'm glad our past got at least a little bit, brought us into at least slightly closer proximity. I mean, this is this event that really is, you know, absolutely silly and lighthearted and fun and geeky, and yet. Yeah, it's, it's the sermons, it's the theologians who are speaking and essentially preaching, whether it's sort of communion on the last day.

I mean, it's this also just this really beautiful example of what church can be,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: right? You have this, you know, and I think the main reason that beer is in the name of this thing, I mean, there's beer there and it flows freely. And so it is part of it. So it's not an inaccurate label, but I think even if there were less beer, it would be worth putting beer in the title.

'cause I think what it does is it, it causes a certain group of people, a certain constituency who would see theology camp and would go to that. And then they see theology, beer [00:13:00] camp, and they self-select out.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: And then all these other people who can enjoy. A glass of montepulciano dab bruso, or even the occasional IPA, uh, but would probably prefer a stout, you know, could get together.

Uh, and who are probably also more inclusive in terms of theological diversity, in terms of other aspects and can do church

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: And so I expected it to be fun and it has never disappointed me in that regard, but I didn't expect it to be profound and moving in the way that it was. And that's consistently been my experience, uh, going year after year.

I mean, it made such an impression the first time that the next year when I went back, uh, brought my son with me. I was like, this is, yeah, I think a good experience for him to have an example of, of what church can be that. I mean, not, not that, uh, the congregation that he grew up in is, is, you know, fails to be sort of inclusive and welcoming in various ways.

But it's got a lot. It actually, I was gonna say it has a lot more gray [00:14:00] hair, but actually. I, I'm astonished given how frivolous this, the LG beer camp sounds, I was looking around at the audience. There's a lot of gray hair there,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Oh my gosh. That's what surprised me the most was how old the, the people collectively were, I was thinking this is gonna be a bunch of like hipster millennials, you know, and it is not, I mean, it is primarily boomer plus.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah. The, the one, the one place where like the, the, the sort of the nineties crowd still have a stranglehold is on the karaoke choices. Right. And so we, we've gotta make some, we've gotta make some adjustments there. And then this will be perfect for a wider array of people. But, uh, yeah,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: that was the first episode. it's, it, this last one was in a church. And so, you know, you're literally sitting in pews for the, the main sessions. And you get, you know, as part of your registration, you get this giant, you know, beerstein and you can fill it, you know, uh, all during the day. Uh, I think beginning at like 10:00 AM they start serving it.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: it.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: And, uh, and so I'm [00:15:00] sitting. In this pew with my giant beer mug. And I, I, for me, that was like a,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: a,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: this feels very wrong. And I feel like, you know, someone's gonna come in and be like, Hey kids, you know, what are you doing? But it was like, this is what this is. And what I love about it is I can't think of another space where it's an intentional, we're gonna go talk big ideas about God, big ideas about theology, big ideas about how do we live this out?

And we're gonna make room for lots of perspectives around it. And one of the things I have really struggled, you know, I, I come out of

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: of

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: pretty conservative mainstream evangelicalism and there's, there can often be a very big hesitation of any idea that is different or seems new or seems, you know, out outside of what is, has already been believed.

And so if you, if you are like me, and I suspect like you,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: you're entertained. by these ideas And you're curious, and

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: and

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: the traditional answers don't often [00:16:00] satisfy you. It's really hard to to be the person that they look at and go, why? Why are you, you know, exploring that? Or why are you discussing that or entertaining that idea?

This was like a whole three day experience with a bunch of people doing that. And it was, it was so fun.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah. And I mean, they, they, that same constituency would also say, you know, why are you exploring this perfectly sound Calvinist theology with a beer mug in your hand?

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah. Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know, and so the fact that you're doing this open theological thing with a beer mug in your head in church, I mean, I love that they manage, you know, I think pretty consistently to have these in churches.

Um, it's often a hard sell for like the

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Sure.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: and for, you know, uh, it's like you're, you wanna do what here? You know? And I've heard more than one story of a pastor really sort of, you know, putting their reputation on, on the line with the congregation, making the case that this would be a good thing to, to bring, um.

I have not heard afterwards ever that they've regretted the [00:17:00] choice. Um,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: is probably a good indication I think that would've gotten around had it been so, but I mean, I think that it happens in churches at least provides some, if it was happening anywhere else, I feel like it, you, you might be like, okay, but you know, this couldn't happen.

You know, there, there, there's no actual church like this. Like

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Mm-hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: where we have to, we have to do it somewhere else. And that's why that's the only way it would work. And so the fact that this is welcoming in places, I think, you know, provides a certain amount of hope, you know, not just for like Christianity in its progressive expressions or whatever else, and it's more inclusive varieties, but for church, right, that this can be, church can be like this

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Sure.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: places are at least aspiring to be, even if they don't always, always manage to, uh, or, you know, do it pretty well.

Just, you know, I mean the, the, the beer mug. with you in the pew will be the exception rather than the rule. Right.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: is fair. Right. As far as church life goes. Right.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: well there was one day they had, [00:18:00] uh, I forget what they named it, but, um, they had, you know, an intentional time like on the lawn out.

outside And it was a beautiful, afternoon. and so you got all these people with beer mugs and then they had cigars and, you know, people smoking pipes. And, and I remember thinking, 'cause there's like, we're in the middle of a neighborhood, the churches, and I remember like watching cars drive by and thinking

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: thinking

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: they're probably looking at all of us, as like, what happened to that church?

Like, what is going on there, They're smoking and drinking outside on the lawn, you know,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: know,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: probably an interesting, uh, conversation follow up with the neighborhood, I would imagine.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Well, I would love to know how many people visit these churches as a result of the sort

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: what scene flowing onto the lawn

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: yeah,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: during this event.

You know, it's, um,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: yeah. It's a,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: have no data on that, but it would, I really would love to know.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: It's a beautiful, you know, kind of out of the box expression of what, what these gatherings of church could be. And, you know, this is what we're about in this podcast is, Hey, let's have a,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: a,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: a glass [00:19:00] of something great and, and have an honest, relaxed conversation.

Not a stuffy, you know, conversation where people often assume, all right, if you're gonna,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: if you're gonna

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: If you're gonna talk theology, it's gotta be formally in a church or maybe in an academic setting. But you can have these conversations anywhere. and You can sit down with a glass of wine and

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: and

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: have great conversations. So I think that's the spirit that I love the most.

And, you know, that's, that's what we're here doing today, James.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: today, James. Yeah. Yep. It's, it's, good that we can do this kind of thing. It's great that your podcast makes space for this, but yeah, there's, there's still something special about getting together with people in person, you know,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Absolutely.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: and doing that.

And so, um,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I, I, I.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: the way that podcasts and that event sort of like. They're, they're connected. These are flow into each other. Like the podcasters are there either, you know, leading sessions or being the respondents or just, you know, uh, yeah.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I met a ton of podcasters. there. It's like

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Like

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: everybody, everybody there's got a podcast.

So it was, it was definitely a cool environment with people who are, you know, again, [00:20:00] inter, inter interested in having these kind of conversations And doing it regularly. So,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: uh,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: uh, this is a fun extension for us to have that experience. And then now to follow up today and talk about your book.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah.

Well, you've, you've gotta start doing this regularly. Be one of those podcasters that's there regularly and then every, all of your listeners will know that, you know, what's a year you're gonna do a report on, or maybe several episodes reporting on theology beer camp. And that'll be like the beer episode of,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah. There,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know, Cabernet and Prey,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: There we go, yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: yeah.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: A beer episode. I like that We almost did a bourbon episode one time. Uh, Greg Boyd didn't want. to do a Glass of wine. He is like, I'm a bourbon guy. And I was like, I'll do a bourbon with you.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: And then, you know, he thought better, of it. he's like, I don't know if I can handle bourbon and

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: and all.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: on all. those conversations. So we ended up abandoning it.

But I have entertained other beverages on the show. So James, I'll I'll take your encouragement. Maybe we need to do a, future beer episode,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: right? Yeah. I mean, Cabernet and pre uh, will come up with a rhyme [00:21:00] for beer. Uh, but yeah, for Greg Boyd, you can have the occasional episode where it's like, uh, you know, bourbon and, you know, pros, prostration and worship or something.

I don't know, you know, whatever the appropriate thing is.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: yeah. we'll see where it goes. I love it. Okay. Before we get into your book, I wanna ask you a question that I like to ask our guests so that listeners who may be, uh, being introduced to you for the first time today. Get a little bit of a feeling of your journey and who you are.

So the question I like to ask is, if you look at your faith journey, let's narrow it down to the last 10 years. So from the last 10 years to today, how would. You say that your faith has changed in that time?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: timeframe? Wow, that's a great question. And you know, I'm so used to being asked about pretty much anything, but like the last 10 years, right?

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: There we go. We're starting off with it.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: know, there are other, other times that were just like a little bit more, I guess formative, you know, and I'd say that the last 10 years have been really me sort of coming into my own, finding my voice, you know, [00:22:00] as a, as a public scholar, uh, and be being more outspoken, I think trying to make sure that voices like ours are heard in public spaces.

Like, because oftentimes you'll hear people saying, you know, how come, how come the fundamentalists get all the attention? And how come nobody's hearing any other perspectives, not hearing, even from conservatives who think that there's value in discussion across diversity. You know, where is all that?

And. It is not because people aren't talking, it's not because people don't hold these views. It's because, you know, if you sound either adamant or confident or you know, ridiculously extreme, you know, all those are things that are more likely to get media attention. And so, yeah, I think a really decisive moment, and hopefully you'll forgive me that I'm not sure, it might have been slightly before the 10 year mark,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: We will allow it.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: I, I remember, I [00:23:00] remember there was a workshop for faculty uh, Butler that was, uh, sponsored by what then was called the Center for Faith and Vocation.

Um, it's essentially a, a hub for campus ministries vocational discernment includes sort of humanistic groups, all the various religions. So it's not sectarian, they were doing faculty workshops, you know, about how you engage with this, you know, students' religious identities with vocational discernment, with other things, you know, as faculty and in the classroom.

And I remember a colleague, uh, who had gone to another state for a wedding ceremony because in, in Indiana at that point, it was still not legal to marry someone. Same sex. And so it was like, you know, I came back from getting married and didn't even feel like I could talk about this with my students.

Right? Whereas if I, if I was in a heterosexual relationship and got married, this would be, you know, I'd be talking about it. The students would all be celebrated. We'd probably throw a party instead of covering the course [00:24:00] content that we're

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Right.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: And, that was really decisive for me in making me realize that, you know, when we try to imagine, know, and you know, there's some value in it, you know, um, even if it's also problematic in certain perspectives, but that some of us have tried at times to be, you know, like, I'm not going to talk about.

Where I'm coming from, I'm gonna try and be the sort of impartial moderator in this classroom, who's interested in how you think rather than what you think and that sort of stuff. and I think, you know, certainly a professor's perspective can dominate and influence in ways that can be unhelpful.

And so I, I think having caution is, is called for, but it was, that moment really was sort of a decisive turning point in making me realize that if I'm not as an ally, right,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: I want conservative students to take my classes and maybe be stretched a little bit and get their eventually that long-term [00:25:00] hope of mine, that maybe I'll be more accessible and more, uh, inviting to.

Certain constituents of students that I think need to get into my classes. I'm sacrificing being an ally and a support to colleagues who need me at times and maybe to

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Right.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: And so, uh, and didn't make, didn't make it easier to navigate that because, you know, there are costs and their benefits to each of those sort of decisions.

And, you know, I don't judge others who make different choices, but it, it really caused me to think and made me, you know, caused me to try and make myself more visible as a, as a liberal Christian, uh, at my institution. Uh, I've never felt that there was any hostility to that. Right. It's not, I think I've sometimes said, I may even say this in the book, that I think teaching at Butler actually saved my faith, uh, precisely because it was not pressuring me either to conform to some particular, you know, ideology, nor was it hostile and attacking.

It was like. You're, you're whatever, you know, good, you know, do a good [00:26:00] job teaching students, make sure they learn, cover content explicitly. Do the things that you're supposed to do and be yourself and,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: have your views, express 'em, you know, you're welcome to. That's, you know, and there was never any antagonism to that from, from one side or from the other, you know, in the ways that there might be at some other institutions.

And I think that was really healthy in terms of, of finding my own voice and when I decided to, you know, be more, more public about, my own faith on campus in certain, in certain respects, to wear it on my sleeve, um, occasionally literally with just like I do with my fandom and sometimes have a geeky shirt on or something.

But, you know, more, more in the sort of metaphorical sense, uh, that, that was, that was never, that was never a problem. The only challenge was my own personal one of. How do I do this? What's the appropriate way to do this at a non-sectarian institution where I'm a person who has a profound faith that has changed over the years and who's now teaching students who are religiously [00:27:00] diverse in courses that relate to religion, the Bible, stuff like that.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm, I, I think you're bringing up an interesting conundrum that a lot of progressive people feel, and I know I have felt it as well, where when you, when you realize that you hold a view that may not be the majority view,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: view,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I, there's almost a sense of like, how open can I be with that? And especially when people are assuming probably that I I hold a different view.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: view

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: and as, as you're talking, I was thinking of something that just hap had happened to me last week.

I was, I was Christmas shopping with my wife and we were at a store and I hear my name get called, and so I, you know, I turn around and it's someone who had. attended a church that I worked at,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: uh,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: uh, you know, probably a decade ago.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: ago.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: And you know, hadn't seen this person since then. And so, you know, we, we start catching up and

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: and

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: he starts talk, you know, talking to me, all these things.

And then

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: then

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: he starts quickly, you know, asking me about some current events. And he, he had asked me about Mark Driscoll and, you know, he [00:28:00] brings him up. Mark Driscoll happens to be in Arizona as well, where I live.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: live.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: And, uh, and so he's talking about it's like these things that Mark is doing and assuming that I would be, you know, not only in the know, but like a total fan of it.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: of it.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: And I remember in that moment just like, do I just keep nodding and, you know, just go along with it for the sake of the piece, or do I be honest with them? And kind of what you're saying, I'm at a point now where I'm like, I'm gonna be honest with you. So I just said, Hey, you just, just to be honest with you, like, I'm not really a fan of Mark Driscoll. And he looked at me like, really? Why not? You know? And I just said, yeah, he's got a, a theology and a methodology that I, I really. am not a a fan of and

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: and

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I think can actually be really, really harmful.

And, And so he kinda looked at me like, whatever. Well, he keeps talking, then he brings up Charlie Kirk, and you know, what did, he asked me?

What did I say after Charlie Kirk died?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: died

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: and it was another like, okay do, he's clearly thinking one thing. And I just said, Hey, I, I would kind of put that in a similar category of, you know, I, I was not a Charlie Kirk fan. I think a lot of what he said was really harmful rhetoric. And,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: [00:29:00] And,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: um, so, you know, obviously mourned his death, but I said I, I wasn't gonna, you know, do a whole eulogy and, and I don't think he died as a martyr.

And, and it, it was like that same like, oh my gosh, really. But I do think that is a journey that anyone who doesn't fit into the mainstream kind of conservative flow you, you have to get to that place where in your own voice, in your own way, you feel comfortable. And so I think it's helpful to learn from you, to learn from.

You know, kind of my journey to go, You, you've gotta figure out how to do that in a way that makes sense.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah. it doesn't mean that, you know, in every, every single time we're in the supermarket and bump into

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: right

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: place, the right time for, you know, every single discussion. Uh, but that's true.

Whether it's a, you know, conservative, liberal, doesn't matter, it's just that, you know, um, some miles, you know, the, the particularly ones with the frozen, you know, stuff that's not, you know, not behind doors. And so it's actually kind of chilly, you know, it's like, you know, there, there's a time and a place for everything.

So.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah, I love it. Okay, we're gonna talk about your book now and [00:30:00] it's called Beyond Deconstruction. This is fun. I got the biggest copy of your book. I think this is the biggest advanced copy I've ever got. For those of you on video, it's things like a workbook.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Uh,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Uh, it's not what the final version's gonna look like, I don't think, but um, I was, I sent this, I think from your

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: yeah, I think it's just like the, the book manuscript printed odd, regular

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: right,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: sort of, or oversized or

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: so this is like early, Early edition. I felt, I felt very honored to have this edition and I did have a chance to read through it and loved it, and obviously completely in line with the discussions that we have on this podcast.

And so I was like, this is a no-brainer. So excited to, to talk through this with you. So I have a number of quotes. We'll see how many we get through, uh, that I would just love to hear you unpack and so, What I often say is I love reading a book when I know I'm gonna interview the author, because this, it's like an invitation when I read something and I'm like, Ooh, that is so good.

Then I can just have you, you know, ad-lib on [00:31:00] it and like, let's unpack some more of that. So, without further ado, here's, here's the first one that I thought was so helpful. You write this when your convictions and values change, the places you gather and the worldview you embrace should be set up to reflect and facilitate that shift in focus.

Which I think is incredibly helpful. because Many of the people on this journey. Had a place where they fit, everything made sense. They asked the wrong question. They, you know, they changed their mind on the wrong thing and they realize that place doesn't fit, that that doesn't, that's not gonna be safe for them anymore.

And then they

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: they

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: kind of wander and often trying to find people, um, you're talking about, hey, this is a strategic way to kind of figure out how to navigate this. What have you found to be really helpful in that regard?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Uh, yeah. So I think that's one area where I certainly still continue to have a lot more questions that I feel like I really do answers.

Um, I think we could probably benefit from, you [00:32:00] know, like actual real input from like, people who are professionals in education, right? Uh, because really what happens, I think in a lot of, you know, well, no, in a lot of the narrower and more traditionalist types of religious expression is that there's this expectation that there's this oversimplified version of the.

That you can give to someone once for all. And it not only will it supposedly serve them for the rest of their life, any, any modification, any growth, right? To use, because I think that's the, the, the most apt word viewed as backsliding, right? Rather than as maturation, as progress, as discovery, right?

As you know, exploration. And yet, I will be the first to acknowledge that. It's really hard to know how to do that in the context of a community, right? If you have a really big community, I think it's one thing, right? [00:33:00] If you have a big university, you can offer 100 level, 200 level, 300 level, 400 level classes.

And you know, if somebody talks to you about a class that's like, oh, it's clear you've already covered some of this stuff. Go into the other one. Or, oh, you wanna go into that 300 level class? I think you should take this first. You know, that

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Uh. you have a decent sized, well, not decent sized, I think small churches actually can do a lot that could be really meaningful.

but unless you have a, a fairly sizable group of people, then it's unlikely that you can sustain like those different levels of, let's say, Sunday school class. Right? And then you still have the question of what do you do in a, a sermon, right? Where some people are wrestling with, you know, more advanced aspects of a question, but you have some people who've, you know, are just starting their faith journey and aren't ready for that, right?

And so don't judge pastors that, you know, they often try to, you know, steer clear of the more difficult stuff. Um, and, you know, there's some content [00:34:00] that's really useful for understanding the Bible that also is just simply not good. Um, sermon material,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Right.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: I, my my go-to reference is, you know, no one should ever have to listen to a sermon on the synoptic problem, right?

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know, uh. with my line of work and my interests, I would Right. But I understand well enough that, you know, this is not something that anyone else should be subjected to. And so it really is, I think a question of more question of attitude, right there, there may be communities that are large enough and skilled enough and have the kind of people that can actually do this in a very strategic way and have the staggered thing and say, okay, you know, I think, you know, with the questions you're asking you, you should move up to this other class now, and that sort of thing.

Right? And, you know, at, at my, at my church, on the one hand, you know, at the moment, you know, mine is the only Sunday school class. And occasionally somebody will come in, come for a few weeks and it's like all this discussion that meanders [00:35:00] and, you know, you think you know what the topic's gonna be, but then we veer off because somebody has asked a question.

It's just not their thing. They want someone

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: in and do something systematic and present it and tell them, you know, rather than say, so what do you think? And let's explore this and let's, you know, discuss. Um, but I feel like the community as a whole is, is aware that you might be different, right?

And so I think that matters more than whether you actually have an infrastructure, you know, and, and actual classes that meet everybody's needs. I think, you know, if you have a pastor, but also a community that will say, okay, you're clearly, you're clearly reading some stuff that I've never read, it's causing you to ask questions that I'm not asking.

And I'm gonna pray that you will have wisdom and insight as you explore this stuff. And, you know, maybe sometime we can grab coffee and I can, you know, get a few of the highlights once you've finished exploring

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: in the meantime, you know, uh, great, and [00:36:00] I'll cheer you on even though I'm not doing that thing, uh, that attitude alone.

I mean, is is what really I think, makes a difference, right? I mean, nobody, well, I won't say nobody because there's always somebody, right? But for the most part, most people do not get upset that you get this simplistic introduction to let's say, you know, anatomy or chemistry or biology or something like that.

And then when you take advance, you you, do quantum mechanics and you discover, you know, okay, atoms are not what I thought they were, you know, and it's like your whole, you know, but it, it's not as traumatic as discovering the Bible's not what I thought it was,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm. Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Because, and it's not because the journey has to be different, right?

We start out simple and we start out over simplistic as children and as we grow and develop, we ask questions, and it's a deliberate stifling of that, that I think [00:37:00] prevents that growth and maturation just happening and allowing it to happen. Right. That's why I, I mean, I advocate for, you know, childlike faith, and I think that whoever says that children just trust and never question.

That's like, have you had children? It's like children constantly ask, why, but why, but

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: but why? I want that kind of childlike faith, right? And I want a community that actually said, takes what you said about childlike faith seriously. Which means that you can ask why questions, and we might get tired of somebody if they ask a lot of them, but we understand that that's part of the journey.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I love the answer, and I, I love your emphasis on the childlike faith. One of, one of the kind of metaphors I think about with, with my own preaching, and this is gonna maybe sound insulting, but I don't mean it insulting at all, but think about like, you know, if you're watching a Pixar movie and you've got young kids, oftentimes you will notice things as an adult in that movie that is adult, humor. And your kids won't laugh at it 'cause they don't get the joke. But it's [00:38:00] literally built in to this kid movie for adults you know, for the parents. And I've even found like going back and watching movies that I watched as a kid. And I'm laughing at things like, I don't remember that in that movie at all.

Well, I don't remember it 'cause I didn't get it, you know, when I was a kid. And Now I get the humor and I think to, to me, that's a great sermon where you almost make you, you make it where a, a kid, and in this analogy being a, a, a baby Christian, right? Someone who's just like, Hey, this is day one. I'm, I don't know much can, can follow along, right?

You're not so into the weeds that they're like, what are you talking about? But that seasoned person that's been around, that's explored ideas is going, oh, okay, I see, I see where I see where that's going. Right? And, and if you can hit all those different levels and you know, even this this last weekend I preached and I had someone come through like, I see what you were doing with that.

You know, and it was, it was that acknowledgement of like, yeah, no, I definitely made some, some connections that if you understand that, you know, wider narrative, you. can Connect those dots, but someone else might go, oh, he was just talking about X, Y, Z. And so I love the [00:39:00] childlike faith. I think that's a really helpful way of let's, let's create a community where anyone can hang with us and we're not, you know, talking about ideas that lose people, but then you make room for people who are curious and go, I, I want to go deeper.

I wanna explore ideas rather than shunning them of why, why aren't these explanations good enough for you? Which, you know, to people like us is like the worst thing you can say to us is like, What, you shouldn't be asking the why question.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah. It's like, it's not good enough because it's like, it's good, you know, it's just like, you know, like, I just like you know, um, yeah.

I, cartoons have been doing that for a really long time. You know, I mean, I think of, you know, sort of coyote going after a Roadrunner with the Acme, you know,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Mm-hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: other. And you know, it was this company that everybody's getting stuff and just like made every kind of possible thing. And so it was, you know, and so adults were laughing at, I mean.

The, the savvy makers of cartoons have known that adults are going to continue to be exposed to this. Right. And so I think that, you know, on [00:40:00] the one hand we need places where you can, you know, have the, have the movies and the TV series as just like, we'll watch it after the kids go to bed kind of

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Right, right.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: But we also need the things, you know, we need the seeds planted in those, you know, sort of elementary curricula, right? That can allow the person who's question to be like, Ooh, you know, and follow that thing, you know,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Mm-hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: or, you know, is grown a little bit, but is still among people who are watching those same episodes and could get a little bit more out of it.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: right.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: I think there's a lot of, know, conservative curricula, you know, and conservative, you know, educational materials that don't provide that simply because they're, the people who are making it, aren't there. Right. And so they're not

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: to, and it would be really interesting and. I hope somebody listening to this will, maybe, maybe multiple people, maybe a dozen people listening to this will be like, Hey, you know, I'm in the field of education.

Let's make this a a thing. But making those kinds of materials, you know, maybe actual, you know, um, you know, animated [00:41:00] series and stuff like that, but at the very least, you know, books and things that it can be accessible no matter how early you're starting, but have have seeds in them that allow you to, to grow further beyond that initial surface level reading of it.

And it's actually providing that stuff in there.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: be something that you, you have to stop using the, the Sunday school material you're provided or the books that the parents will bringing home or whatever in order for you to get that it's, it's like there and can grow along with you.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm. I love that. That's great. All right, here's another one. While the loss of something that seemed permanent was almost inevitably traumatic. For you, what hurt more than the failing or the falling beliefs was the loss of a feeling of certainty, of stability, of safety that you had because of that structure's illusion of permanence.

And I love that you talk about you didn't [00:42:00] actually lose what you thought you lost. You lost, you lost the illusion of what you thought, which is, I think is a huge, a huge distinction there. But talk a little bit about this, the need for certainty in so much of evangelical circles today.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating, right?

And I think it's only once you've, you've at least started to explore that you realize that so much of this was there in the Bible, right? how many times did we hear, you know, trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding? And we were leaning on our own understanding, right?

We thought we wore it right, because we thought that if you just accept this package or you. the Bible, which never meant believing all of it, but yeah. some damage control, whether it's with Leviticus or Jesus saying that we have to give up everything we possess or whatever it is. Right? You know, one of those things that no one takes literally, but you manage to maintain this sense that you are believing the Bible and so that you are doing this thing that provides certainty.

And [00:43:00] we have, we have a, I think an innate desire for, for certainty, for stability. Um, and on the one hand, you know, I don't think we anyone should be judged for having that instinct, right? That we all have, but maturation not just in faith, but in general means recognizing that the world is, is complex and uncertain learning how to navigate that without panic.

Right. And to enjoy life. Right. Can you be certain that this relationship right, you, you're committing yourself to this significant other. Can you be certain this will last forever? No, you, you are making a commitment and you, you, you have hope and it is entirely possible that it will, but can you know this?

Right? And oftentimes, you know, the, I'd say the, the fundamentalist, you know, might be particularly Pentecostal approach is, you know, to seek subsets that, you know, God has ordained this and therefore I can know that this was, this is the right person and it will last. And

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: a quest [00:44:00] for a feeling of certainty, right?

And we often feel certain, and I often, you know, I, I will regularly do this and I need to remember to do this when I'm teaching a, a new class next semester, uh, which is called the Bible and Misinformation. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Um, but we often feel certain, and I think with, you know, everyone should have had everyone hopefully has had the experience of feeling certain about something and discovering you were wrong.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: And what that should tell all of us is that. That's why you trusted the Lord with all your heart and lean out on your understanding. It's not about, you know, well, so God is gonna give you this package. I'm gonna believe it, and therefore it's not my understanding. It's it's God's understanding, and I'm just no right.

Even if God gave you that. Right? And some people try to claim that's what the Bible is. But even if God gave us that, look at all the differences among the denominations and groups that claim to just believe the Bible and to be biblical and [00:45:00] biblically based, and Bible believing Christians, and yet they're not doing things the same way as that other group down the street.

There's no avoiding our human fallibility. And while that's disconcerting, also be liberating, right? There's nothing in the Bible that suggests that. Sort of final judgment is based on passing a theology exam and giving all the right answers. Right? And so that too is woven into it, right? And yet we often approach this faith thing, right?

If we are find ourselves in a conservative evangelical context or some sort of fundamentalism as though that were the case, that what really matters is getting the doctrines right. And yet faith is so much more than that. And that far from being a, you know, a provider of certainty and stability is illusory in terms of what it's, you know, not, it doesn't provide what it's promising in terms of, you know, the area of doctrine, but it's also leaving out so much else that's important to

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: [00:46:00] Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: when we explore the various things that the Bible, uh, offers on the subject.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah, I love that. I think, I think certainty has become one of the biggest idols. in Christianity and We don't talk about it. enough. We don't call. it out enough. And So I love that. I love that you talk about that and I love that you you stress, the illusion of it 'cause you, you don't actually have the certainty you think you do, But you can have the feeling. Which, is, you know what the illusion creates. Okay. You have a hot take that, uh, the book isn't out yet, so I can't get the reaction you've got to this yet, but I'm really curious, the reaction, you're gonna get to this. I actually really like this idea, but I thought this is, this is something I don't hear a lot of people suggest, and I'm curious how this one's gonna go over.

So maybe you can tell me, what an editor said. or I, don't, I don't know how many people have read this so far. So here's, here's what you say. This is, this is good. If you're shopping for a car and you don't know cars, you should bring someone along who does. [00:47:00] Have you ever noticed how rarely those shopping for a faith actually consult an expert on this subject.

How might church shopping be. different If you could bring along a theologian or a biblical scholar. Uh, I love this idea of like,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: like,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: yeah, if you're gonna go, you know, to one area, you would ask someone who knows that, but we don't think about Christianity this way, you're suggesting we should. Have you gotten any reaction Are you anticipating reaction?

What, do you, what do you think about this?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: think about this? Yeah, yeah. So this is actually, you know, this, this is a book that I wrote quickly and I mean, I like writing. And so I, I do this, um, this isn't the only time I've written this quickly, but a lot of what's in there are ideas that have been percolating for a long time.

And so at some point, you know, and I went back and looked for it because I wanted to, you know, make sure I gave a, an appropriate citation to, you know, sort of what inspired this line of thought. sometime, you know, [00:48:00] definitely more than a decade ago, uh, I read something by Carl Sagan. And I think it may have used it, it used some sort of imagery that inspired me to write a blog post, that was called something like, you know, advice for those Buying a Used Religion.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: It's an amazing title.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Right. Which I thought was like a good way of expressing this

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah. Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: You know, uh, I think his, I think all that he had said on the subject was, you know, when someone's offering you a worldview, you know, think about it. You know, somebody's offering you a car that says only driven once by a little old lady.

You're like, okay, that's, that's what sales, that's the sales pitch. I understand. I have to check this thing out. You know, I have to get somebody to take a look at this thing. often when somebody offers us a worldview, you know, it, it comes with promises. And we don't do anything to ask, you know, they're saying God promises these things.

Is that actually the meaning of this, you know, is what's the reality to this? Right. I mean, I will be the [00:49:00] first to say that, you know, I'm somebody who had a life changing experience, you know? Born again experience. And oftentimes when you've had that kind of profound religious experience of some sort in the context of a religious group, you think that any, any teaching or doctrine that then goes, you know, comes with that group, should be embraced.

And yet I think I'm, I'm pretty sure it was helpful to me on my journey. One reason why I came out the other end with a sort of a, a very different faith, but a faith nonetheless, was the fact that, you know, I, I had that, you know, I, I was not steeped in that church before having that experience. You know, really it was just a sort of crying out to God and surrender.

And so

the doctrines came along later and there was no reason to think that the doctrines were, were required in order to have that sort of encounter. And it's entirely possible that, you know. People encounter God despite, you know, what people are doing in various contexts.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Right.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know, because we, we, we mess [00:50:00] things up pretty consistently in some way, shape, or we, we, we all mess things up differently, but we all mess things up,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: So, yeah, I mean, so there was something that Carl Sagan said about, you know, that was comparing, you know, like, don't, don't just believe the, the sales pitch. that led me to write a, a, a blog post that I titled Yeah. Advice for those buying, uh, used Religion. And that that image, that idea has, has long since seemed wise advice, right?

We need to, we need to, we all, I think the challenge is that we all grow up and end up with a worldview that was developed. And largely inherited before we were capable of evaluating it critically, right? So your first worldview, you inherit just much like your first car, right?

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Right. Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: was just there.

It was the one, and you know, there was, you probably didn't pay any money for it. You may have been a hand me down from a, a parent or an older sibling or something like that, but you also didn't learn that you need to [00:51:00] ask questions. In fact, in that case, you probably should just accept it and, you know, get on.

But when it eventually breaks down and you get a new one, you can't just say, okay, you know, where's, where's my next one?

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: be given to you. But there will always be people who will swoop in and offer you something saying, yeah, this is gonna be, it's gonna be even better than the one that you had, right?

And,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: and so that's why I also, um, you know, use the image of, you know, if you've lost, you know, if your worldview has fallen apart, last thing you want is like a rebound faith.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know, you don't wanna just like something else that's like, okay, this one, you know, it's really good. You know, it's really good in all the ways that that other one was bad, And so you can sort of quickly fall in love with it and not realize that it, it has different human shortcomings, but it has human shortcomings because it's a human construct. All of our worldviews as human beings are. And when it eventually disappoints you too, then sometimes that's more traumatic, right?

It's like, you know, and [00:52:00] it's like, oh, I can never love again. Oh, I can never believe again. Oh, I can never have faith again. And part part of why I wrote this book, you know, one of the main things is that, you know, I came through some of this process and scholars who come out of or through a tradition that bestows, you know, a great interest in the Bible, but also misconceptions about the Bible, you know, and then we go and study.

And the study challenges. That very, you know, thing that we thought was the foundation of our assumptions about this, this thing that we, you know, and, you know, that can be very messy, but to the extent that scholars have been doing this for pretty much, as long as there's been biblical scholarship in the modern sense, we really more of us ought to tell our story if we come out the other

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: some sort of faith that's, you know, different but real and meaningful.

Um, we should sort of leave some breadcrumbs, you know, here, here's how I found, you know, and my path might not be your path, you know, because, you know, we're all different. We're, we're [00:53:00] we, we all different in various ways, but also, you know, scholars sometimes it's like really, really concerned about stuff that nobody else finds interesting.

Right. You know? Um, and so there's that as well. But I think we can still share things that are useful in terms of, you know, it might not look like my journey, but knowing that somebody else took a journey that's like this. You know, might be all that you need in order to find your own way along a different path, but one that, you know, navigates some of the same challenges.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah. I think a lot of people, I've talked about this before, but go, go find a rebound church.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: church.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: right? They have a bad experience, they get a rebound church that's like, this feels great. And then, you know, quickly get into something funky and then it's like, I can't do church anymore. It's like, well,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: But

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: you rushed back into that thing.

Maybe you need to go a little slower and, you know,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: think through it. And

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: it.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: One of the analogies I think is helpful and it's right in line with the, this quote of, you know, used, used church shopping, but,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: but,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: uh, or used [00:54:00] Christianity, shopping. I, if you are deconstructing, you're essentially tearing something down for the hope that you can build it back up.

And I'll I'll say this way, you know, if you are driving a, a vehicle and your check engine light comes on, you know, you need someone to look under the hood and figure out something's wrong. Some, Your car is. telling you something's wrong. So you take it to a mechanic who, who probably knows more about cars than you, unless you're really good with cars.

But most of us, I, I take mine to a mechanic and I say to them, Hey, there's a check engine light on.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: on.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Can you deconstruct this and then rebuild it for me in, in a way that's healthier? And I think that's how life is. you, you get a check engine light on in your soul, and it's like, sometimes you need to go find someone that can help you unpack that.

And it might be a therapist, it might be a spiritual mentor. It might, you know, someone who can help you navigate that, that can take these ideas and go, Hey, let's, let's think this through. Or let's deconstruct some of these ideas you've accepted along the way that may be leading to this check engine light.

And then we're gonna put it back together [00:55:00] and the light's gonna go off and you're gonna go, oh. now I can I can drive the vehicle. again.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Okay. Yeah. And I think, you know, maybe it should be a book, but I think at the very least it should be an AI generated image. Right. The one thing, you know, I navigate AI use as an educator, but one thing it's really good for is making that sort of custom image that you can't find anywhere that's just a result of a conversation or something.

And so I want like, the check and, you know, the, the, the dashboard for the church, like your church, like with, with the lights that come on with the wordings. It's like, you know, okay. You know, you know, um, bism, you know, it's, it's

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know, what are, what are the, what's the check engine light, you know,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah. a little, little icon.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: there could be, there could be, there could be a book here, like what to do when your church's check engine light comes on or something. But, uh, at the very least, I think there should be an image to, to sort of represent this, because that's really what happens is, you know, and. Oftentimes when we have the catastrophic failure, you know, and the whole thing collapses, it's because we didn't do the kind of maintenance 'cause we [00:56:00] were, we were sold a bill of goods and promise that this thing, thing will never let you down.

Right. And when we, hopefully, when we put it that way, people can say like, wow, you're right. The, the, the, the rhetoric about churches or about the Christian faith and the rhetoric about used cars or new cars for that matter really similar. I didn't notice the similarity. I should have, you know, thought critically about, you know, the, the fact that, you know, this was reassurance, but you know, it's, there's, there's a reality that you need to approach and approach sort of critically and a bit with a bit more savvy.

Yeah. So

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah. you got you got my mind working on it. I think there's a lot, a lot you can do with that. image. Okay. You have an idea that I have thought about repeatedly. since, Since. You you explained this so succinctly, and I love this idea, and I think it's something I, I want to hear you unpack more. You say The teaching of Jesus encapsulated in the Sermon on the Mount [00:57:00] is entirely about what people should do.

Fast forward a few hundred years, to the fourth century,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: nice

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: creed, it's entirely about what people should believe and not at all about what they ought to do. How did we get from the focus on living a certain way to the focus on thinking a certain way? And now every time I hear someone reference a creed, which happens a lot, this quote of yours has popped back into my head.

And so thank you for that gif. Now that lives rent free in my head and dear listener, you get that as well. Every time someone references a creed, uh, how do you see this? How do we go from the creeds or what it's all about, which as you point out, are fundamentally different than the Sermon on the Mount?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah, I mean, it's. You know, it's, it's a fascinating, you know, um, historical reality that that's what happened. and it's interesting, you know, you, you mentioned that, you know, I may not have, uh, [00:58:00] reactions yet to some of these things, you know, and some cases, you know, there, there was something, an initial idea that was on my blog or something, I might have a reaction in some cases, like this came up in my Sunday school class.

Um, and so that's, you know, that was sort of directly influenced by conversations there. Uh, and that has sometimes happened spontaneously. Now, if I'm have a new writing project, I'll go to there and say, you know, please, yeah, let's talk about these passages so I can steal your ideas, you know, and that sort of thing.

And they know I'm at least somewhat, somewhat kidding, but the conversation really is valuable. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I, I, I, I could, if I could use, let's say the, the example of, you know, focus on the creed, which has, you know, so many components to it. And I do think that what we think.

Affects how we live. And so I don't, I'm not saying that what we think and what our beliefs are are unimportant, but it's fascinating that, know, I mean, you know, Jesus is talking to Gentiles, right? Who you'd assume, you know, even, even if they have some reverence for, and [00:59:00] have some respect for the God of Israel, have other deities that have, you know, there's some complex and we're never told that.

You know, he them a, you know, it's like, okay, recite the Shama after me. It just gives them a track with four things God wants you to know. Right. There's, there's none of that, you know, and it's fascinating. and that in itself I think is, is instructive, right? What Jesus doesn't do that we don't, we may not notice.

Um, I think the heart and soul of the matter, and I realized this as I was wrestling with, you know, why is, um, why are things like young Earth creationism so, popular in certain circles? I mean, it is so much easier to. Deny science, right? I mean, it's, it, it takes effort and it takes a lot of, you know, there's a lot of effort that goes into it, but ultimately it's easier than loving your enemies.

It's easier than self sacrificially, uh, putting the needs of others before your own. Uh, and [01:00:00] the things that Jesus called us to are so challenging that I think there's an instinctive human instinct to say, well, there, you know, there must be something that I can take as a reassurance that, you know, I've, I've saved, I've got the right faith.

I've got whatever. let me find what that is, and I'm gonna do that. Right. And, you know, the, the thing that's also striking is that, you know, many people will say, you know, well, the Sermon on the Mount is what we do, but really, ultimately salvation is by faith, by which they then mean not trust in God, but certain beliefs.

Right? Which is not what the emphasis on in the Bible, right. But then they turn, you know, believing certain things or denying certain things. Essentially into a work, right? This strenuous thing that you do either to be saved or at least in order to prove that you're among the saved and have a genuine faith.

so I think, I think the real reason is that as hard as it is to go against the flow of, you know, sort of scientific knowledge, if you have a community that's doing it with you, even if [01:01:00] that's a, a particular group on Reddit or some other discussion board or wherever it is, you can still feel like, you know, oh, I'm one of these smart people, right?

And so it feeds the ego, right? I've got the right beliefs over against all these people who are wrong. It feeds the ego and it's easier than doing the hard thing that Jesus called us to. And I, I really do think that's, that's really at the heart of it.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Okay, so I'm gonna piggyback on that 'cause I think you're spot on and I'll raise you one.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Oh my,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Th this is why I think most evangelicalism have become one issue voters around abortion, because these are theoretical lives. That you can stand behind without having to do anything. Right? I can theoretically support these unborn lives that don't exist. They're, they're theoretical stats, right? And rather than looking at, you know, people who have immigrated here or you know, people who are foreigners or,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: or,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: like, that would be hard to [01:02:00] love them, but it's much easier to love a theoretical stat that then I can say, yes, I am, I'm, living out.

neighbor love.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah, I think, I think that's a great example and you wanna talk about great names for blog posts. Fred Clark has a blog post about the history of that and how evangelicals, you know, basically, you know, maybe starting in the late seventies, but really basically in the eighties, uh, jumped onto what up until that point had been a Catholic issue and made it this focus in order to get votes and things.

And so he has a blog post about it, which I encourage your listeners to Google if they're not aware of how recently evangelicalism. It to focus on this and it's called, uh, the Biblical View that's younger than the Happy Meal.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Oh, that's a great title.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: And so, uh, it's also memorable, and if you Google it, you're gonna find your way to that post.

Right. 'cause yeah, it's good when you can come up with a title that hasn't been used, um, extensively before. And so also makes it easier to find. But

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: yeah. that, that, [01:03:00] That one should be, should be easy to find. I love it. Okay. You say this, A A lot of what I do, I have another podcast called Rebuilding Faith, where I go, uh, I'm literally right now, I've been working my way through the Gospel of John verse by verse, and I do it in 10 minutes or less every weekend.

And, uh, that came out of, people talk about, Hey, you know, the Cabernet Pray is a great deconstruction environment. What do we do when we're trying to put it back together? And so I was like, all right, I'll, you know, Let's let's talk about Jesus every weekend. So I do that as well. And you had a quote that would be great for that podcast, but I, It's. only 10 Minutes. So I don't, I don't have time for guests on that one. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna steal you on this one, and we're gonna connect these two podcasts together. But I, I thought your idea was great. You said to rebuild something stable, it isn't a good idea to substitute the opposite of everything you had in place previously.

The opposite of a poorly constructed house is not an anti house or an upside down [01:04:00] one. That's such a great image, and I, I suspect this is one, like, someone hears this, or reads it like, well, yeah, no, duh. Except the no duh is we, we tend to do exactly what you're saying, which is, this didn't work. I'm gonna go to the opposite.

And then you end up with something. Whatever you rebuilt is way more absurd, than whatever you started with. So I'd love to hear you talk more about this image. You, you've captured it with such a great, you know, set of, of images there, but how, how do you see us doing this And when someone is deconstructing and then they go.

to Try to do the opposite of that.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: opposite of that. Yeah. I mean, I think of, you know, figures like, I mean, you know, the new atheists come to mind, but one group that I've particularly had a lot of interaction with are, uh, the group known as Jesus Methodists, and they are largely ex evangelicals and ex fundamentalists who, you know, sort of were told that the Bible is inherent truth.

And once they realized that they were lied to [01:05:00] about that, they come to believe that the Bible, you know, just has to be all lies. And so you get

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: that there even was a historical Jesus, right. the extent to which they'll, you know, they'll, they'll quote mind scholars, but then these things that no scholar actually would say, uh, out of the, you know, quotations and their own, um, ramblings is such a mirror of like what young earth creationists do with science that, you know, um, I've.

Taken probably, you know, sinful pleasure, uh, pointing this out to them 'cause it makes them really mad. But hopefully also makes them think about the fact that if we're at one end of a spectrum, do this pendulum swing and we say, okay, I, you know, everything that I was told was a lie. Right?

And the truth is that, you know, if your parents, you know, lied to you, they probably didn't lie to you about everything.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Um, they may have just been fallible, or they may have been well-intentioned, but dishonest or whatever, you know, uh, the [01:06:00] fact that, you know, this experience of a church, you know, I mean, oftentimes atheists miss the community but don't like the doctrines.

But it's like, okay, look, they, there were things they were doing well and things that they were doing not so well. Right? And taking that nuanced approach is hard, right? Because we tend to want to really react negatively to, we wanna hate, you know, you wanna hate your ex, right? And, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot harder than saying, you know, 'cause when you say, I like.

Uh, there, there's so much that I loved about them, but also this, that, and the other. Actually, probably, we probably could have made things work if I just tried a little harder, been more accepting about these things because they were, you know, and so we, we don't like that kind of nuance, right? We like either or.

And one of the things that often happens is that you can end up with whether it's a, whether it's a, an atheism, right? Which is one of the directions that people swing from evangelism or let's say Eastern Orthodoxy, right? Where people who've been like, been [01:07:00] told, you know, nothing meaningful happened between Revelation and the Protestant Reformation.

And they're like, this church history, oh my gosh. You know? And so they, you know, but we'll often approach it with the same kind of dogmatism that characterize their fundamentalism. And so

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: changed the individual doctrines and beliefs, but they haven't changed the, the sort of, the style of the structure, right?

And so on the one hand, they flipped. You know, all the affirmations and make them denials, and yet it's still this, this strange structure that maybe should have been rethought and, you know, been, been conceived differently from, you know, and that's what I say about, you know, being, being a liberal or progressive or inclusive or any, whatever Christian is, you know, you don't wanna be just, you know, sort of across the political aisle or across the ethical aisle or whatever, you know, doctrinal aisle.

But, you know, with the same kind of rhetoric and the same kind of view of others and demonizing of opponents and [01:08:00] things like that, if you want to genuinely, you know, move beyond fundamentalism of any sort, it needs to be not just, you know, not just the individual affirmations, but the very nature of the game that was being played and saying, I'm going to, I'm going to do something that's fundamentally different with, with my faith.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm. The. posture has to change.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: The methods have to change. The, the approach has to change.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Well, and you know, I'm sure as as I've seen I'm sure you've seen, you can have progressive fundamentalists, You know, where they're They're the same exact posture as a fundamentalist. They just land on the other side of the aisle, which, to Your point. that's not a healthier version.

of, of anything. That's so Good. Okay, James, we're gonna transition now. We're gonna ask you some questions. I like to ask each of our guests. and We're gonna compare your answers with everyone else. So Buckle up. We got a couple of wine ones. to start [01:09:00] with. If I were to ask you, and I'm excited for your answer based on, on your wine choice today. If I were to ask you, James, what's the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life? Does a story come to your mind of it was a certain bottle or was a certain place, or a certain person you were with? Uh, what's like the best wine moment you have? What, What.

comes to your mind?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah, I mean, I think what's interesting is that, you know, the most meaningful glasses of wine, you know, I mean, there, there have been, you know, a range of ones where I was like, you know, oh, that, that does that thing that particular variety of wine does and does it well, you know, better than the others.

Uh, I also really like trying new things and, you know, have had interesting experiences of, you know. Knowing a wine snob or two who, has assured me that something is really great. And yeah, I probably don't have the palate to appreciate all the nuances that they do, but the most meaningful glasses of wine have been, you know, [01:10:00] was happening at the time.

Oftentimes, I didn't know what somebody had poured in my glass. I was, you know, we were celebrating the fact that I had passed my Viva, you know, and, you know, was now, you know, um, had a doctorate or, know, was celebrating an anniversary or, you know, there was, or even just, and it doesn't have to be those like, you know, one time or once a year type of moments, but just, you know, moments where, you know, you get together with colleagues, you know, at my university who I also, you know, I'm privileged to call friends.

And so, you know, the fact that we. Periodically have these receptions. We, you know, celebrate the work that we do, and we just, you know, relax and talk about things other than the piles of greeting that are on our desks

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: us the following day. Uh, and so it's, it, it is much more about the moments.

Um, and yeah, I don't, I don't think even like three buck Chuck would, you know, spoil, you know, I don't think anything would sp you know, any, any wine, you know, the wine would've to be really bad to spoil that [01:11:00] moment, let's

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah. Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Right. And, you know, it's, I think it's, you know, it probably says something about me that it's, it's the taste of the friendships more than the taste of the wine.

That sort of stands out in my memory. So I love that,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I love that that's that's one of the beauties of wine is, is making a special moment with, with

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: yeah.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: People around you. Okay. I'm excited for your answer on this. one. which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you? And who would you not trust?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: And

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: and why?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: yeah, I think Martin Luther, I mean, he just spent too much time with beer. He's gonna mess it up. Right. Uh, so I think that's gotta, that's

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: He gets brought up all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: I, and I'm not sure about that. I mean, I don't think he actually, you know, he probably was, you know, you know,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: There's a lot of debate on Martin Luther's ability to pick a wine. I'll just have, you know.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: good. I would like to know, I would, hope somebody will actually, you know, either will confirm this or will write the article that

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: There you go.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know what, why, why the, why the podcast guests are wrong [01:12:00] about Martin Luther on wine, or something like that. Right. Uh, yeah. I mean, on the one hand, I wanna say somebody like, you know, um.

You know, origin, who's my favorite, um, you know, sort of early church father who you was, was, was really, yeah, I mean, he was, he was a scholar, right? He was doing text criticism and he was thinking about things. He was writing commentaries, he was thinking. Doesn't mean I agree with a lot of things that, you know, you had the famous question, you know, who could read everything that Origin wrote.

But, you know, I, I imagine that, uh, was, he's erudite enough that, uh, at some point he would've learned what a good bottle of wine is, even if he doesn't, um, partake himself. Although I imagine that he might right.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Okay.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: do that kind of, you don't have that level of writing and not, you know, relax with a glass of wine every now and again, I imagine.

Uh, but I mean, I, I also, you know, I, I probably should give a shout out to, you know, I mean, Matthew Anderson has a book, the Bible and Booze. Um, and so if we can include people who are current church history, [01:13:00] then you know, there are people and you know, John Anthony Dunn is another one who, um, has a. Uh, a book out.

It's just out. Um, you should probably get him on this podcast given, you know, the,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: He, he, he's he is scheduled. for this podcast. Yes.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: this is like a precursor. I can be drawn the Baptist to

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: There you go. You're, you're preparing the way.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: preparing the way. But you know, that, you know, um, there people who've written, written on this subject, uh, in fact, I had the, I had the chance to contribute to a volume many years ago, edited by a friend of mine.

the volume was called Religion and Alcohol. The subtitle was Sobering Thoughts.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Nice.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: And I, I wrote the, a chapter, um, a glutton and a drunkard. What would Jesus Drink? And, you know, it was exploring, you know, the, it was just really just fascinated by the attempts that some had made and were continuing to make to suggest that, you know, Jesus wouldn't drink that kind of stuff, you

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Mm-hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: in fact the evidence is very clearly to the contrary.

if I include, can include some contemporaries, then, [01:14:00] uh, problem solved.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Okay, so who do you not? trust?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Uh, well, I said Luther, um, yeah, yeah. Also, also would not trust. I, I don't, I I think that I wouldn't trust any fundamentalist who doesn't actually drink this stuff to pick out a bottle of wine for me. Let's put it that

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Okay.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: you go. I like it. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Hmm.

Oh gosh, that's a long list. Uh, but yeah, I mean, on the one hand, you know, I mean, sort of the easy go-to answer is, you know, sort of something like, you know, thinking of the Bible as, you know, in errant, infallible, you know, whatever, you know, using those sort of terms. On the other hand, I think the maybe more interesting one to share would be, you know, I long thought that my shift away from that sort of approach to Christianity something to apologize for, because if you're steeped in that sort of viewpoint.

You [01:15:00] may not realize that historically speaking, that kind of Christianity is not the default. It's not just a given that that's, who speaks for Christianity. That's what Christianity has to be. And so for a long time I was doing the, well, I'm still a Christian, but I no longer hold this, that kind of stuff.

And realizing that when I thought I was being a consistent, you know, sort of Bible believing Christian, was not, I just didn't know the Bible well enough to realize that I was not, hadn't really reflected on it enough to get realize, wow, no, it's, it's not just that now I'm not doing the Bible belief thing.

It's like I was never doing that thing.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: had this worldview that somehow man did damage control and allowed me to persuade myself that I was doing it. And

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: think is maybe the most important that I've gone through, um, in, in my faith journey in a lot of ways.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: That's good. What do you see as the main [01:16:00] issues facing Christianity in America today?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: So we have a lot, um, and it would be easy to just talk, it would be easy to just talk about, you know,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: nationalism and things like that. But I'm sure others have covered that more often enough. I think one real challenge as somebody who's a member in and actively involved in a a small church is that

the, the pandemic in particular, you know, made people realize, oh, you know, I don't have to just go to this thing. You know, I don't, you know, and some people who stopped going after, during the pandemic didn't go back, but that just brought to a head something that was already an issue, which is that if, if you want great preaching, then however you define that, then you can go online and find that will, will meet those needs and probably.

Enough playlists to keep you busy, you know, for, you know, every Sunday for the foreseeable future, uh, if you want music, you know, there's [01:17:00] great music that you can stream, you can whatever. And so people are, I think, often dissatisfied with their local community that doesn't match up to this thing. And so I think the urgent issue is how can those things that we can find online supplement rather than replace in-person community.

there are things that we can't do just through online community. And that's also something I know that comes up in the book, uh, but figuring out what's the, you know, what's the model to, you know, to have, have a presence online and to let people do some of that kind of fellowship that, you know, used to be, used to have to be biscuits and coffee, but now everybody's not, you know, doesn't wanna come early in order to have that or stay late order to do that.

we, we can do those other things. How do. Create a model where that's supplementary to us doing the in-person thing and what might we add to the in-person thing if we free up free ourselves from having to do [01:18:00] all the things that we used to have to do. It's like everybody, the one time we're sure during a week that people will be here, you know, it's like summer, you know, a couple of times a year for Easter and Christmas.

But the ones that are here just once on a Sunday, uh, we gotta get everything in. That's no longer the case. That's no longer the natural model to use. You know, somebody speaking and everybody listening is not how we learn in the classroom anymore. How do we adapt to that still making meaningful in-person community?

I think

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: a really crucial issue.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah, I like that. answer. What's something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Uh,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: so I te I teach a course on the Bible and music and every semester, you know, it's easy to, you know, especially if you. I know there are people who are teaching and are getting AI generated essays and things that are really losing hope and things.

you know, I talk with students about AI early in the semester, you know, won't say that I didn't have anybody resort to that, but I've been listening [01:19:00] to students have a final project to basically take like a song that they know and rework it with biblical lyrics and it's, it's happening again. I was just doing this earlier today and so this is fresh in my mind, but, you know, doing creative stuff, right?

I mean,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know, one, the, the last ones I listened to was, you know, holding out for a hero Reworked to, so that kept a lot of the, kept a lot of the chorus, but then telling the story of David and Goliath

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you know, doing fun stuff like that, and students discovering that they can be creative and allowing me to push them beyond their comfort zone.

you know, doing that. I mean, it's blowing, it blows my mind every semester when I do these things and have these moments because, you know, it's stuff like that that. Uh, it gives you hope for the future, right? There's a lot of pessimism. There's a lot of people say, oh, everybody's cheating. No, they're not all cheating.

You know, there've always been students cheating. If you hadn't noticed up till now, you know, it's long overdue that you notice. Um, there, there's, there's a lot of good people out there. Um,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: there's, there's, there's hope for the [01:20:00] future. And given that the one possible answer to the last question could have been, you know, everything is going on.

It's so terrible. Everything is, you know, there's so much to worry about. there, there's reason to hope

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Yeah. I love that. we, need, we need a good dose of, of hope. What's a problem that you're trying to solve?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: You don't want one of the like, really, really niche, nerdy academic ones, do you? So,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Uh, give it to us. yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: yeah. So the, a, a religious group that I do research on called the Mandan. Uh, they may have evolved out of John the Baptist followers and then taken things in agnostic direction.

there's a name that they use for John the Baptist only they have. And it's also found in Islam and

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: out which borrowed from whom and what the direction is. And so, uh, yeah, think, think I have a, a creative, innovative solution to that. Um, and yeah, it's [01:21:00] one of the many niche things that I work on.

Yeah. I'm also trying to figure out what can, what can the church learn from, you know, gamers and fandom and that kind of stuff. So yeah, I usually am juggling a lot of different things and thinking about a lot of different things all at once. And they're

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I love it. Yeah.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: have a lot of fun doing what I do.

Um, I'll say that.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: That's awesome. That's a great answer. What's something you're excited about right now?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Um. Theology Beer Camp 2026, uh, the, the

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Registration's just opened up. I got an email.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Uh, the end of the semester, uh, is also

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Nice.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: how far we're looking at or, yeah, no, um, yeah, went to a, a conference and came back with, with a strong sense of like what my next book project was going to be and, you know, when classes wrap up, you know, it takes a little bit of time till they can shift gears, but I'm actually looking forward to, uh, just exploring, right?

It's still, you know, don't even have a sample chapter for this thing yet, but who knows, maybe by the end of the break I will. Um,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Hmm.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: it's about, um, Jesus in the [01:22:00] parables and are particularly looking at whether there's humor, riddles, things like that in, in Jesus parables to an extent that we haven't fully recognized before.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Ooh, that's exciting. I like that. Alright, James, is there anything else that you need to throw in that we could not end this episode? If, if we don't address that I haven't asked you yet,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: you yet, I don't think so. You've, you've asked a lot of great questions. Thank you for all those quotes. Yeah. Turn, turn 'em into memes and start, start 'em circulating.

I'll appreciate it. and yeah, thank you for even, you know, um, mentioning that, you know, might even, might even get a shout out on the other podcast as well. So, um, this has all been really great. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Um, it's reassuring that I have, um, advanced tastes in wine and so what more could I hope for from a conversation with, with you?

Right?

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I've left you in good hands. I like it. All right, so if someone is listening to this and they're like, Hey, I like this guy. What's the easiest way for them to connect with you online and with your [01:23:00] work?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Type in religion Prof. All one word. Google will ask you, did you mean religion Prof? And if you tell it no, you'll almost certainly find me.

You can also, if you, if you add James McGrath, it's guaranteed. But I'm on most social media platforms and, uh, my blog as well as religion prof.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Well, James, it has been a delight to chat with you. I loved your book. I'm excited. What's the release date's? February something, right?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: right? Yep,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Uh, what's the date? Do you know it?

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: uh, it's, it's very, very early February.

Um,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Okay.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: date, but yeah, I think, you know, I think they've sent me my author copy, so I think that people who pre-order might get theirs earlier, so, um,

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Okay, there you go. You'll, you'll get a smaller version than I got. So that's my claim to fame.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: size version at some point.

So they

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: Well, hey,

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: make sure that happens.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: that's great. It has been great discussing this with you. Loved your book, excited for people to read it. And at next year's beer camp, we have to actually [01:24:00] meet in person.

james-f--mcgrath--he-him-_1_12-08-2025_150549: Yeah. Sounds good. We'll have a drink together and it won't be an IPAI promise.

jeremy_1_12-08-2025_130549: I love it. On that note, we'll end it. Hey everybody, thank you for joining us for another episode of Cabernet and Pray. We will see you all on the next one.

Beyond Deconstruction (with James McGrath) | Ep. 63

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