Cathedrals of Connection
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[00:00:00]
My upcoming book, the Edge of the Inside, comes out on March 31st, 2026. I wrote this book about my journey, leaving my dream job as a multi-site megachurch pastor in 2020, and how I learned to see both the church and God differently from the edge. If you've ever felt like the Christianity you were handed doesn't match the Jesus you read about, this book is for you.
If you'd like to read a copy before it comes out, we'd love to have you join our book launch team. You can find out more in the link in the show notes.
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray,
where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. And today we've got a discussion about an upcoming book that you can pre-order, and I think is not necessarily going to blow your mind with new ideas, but is going to encourage you. To take advantage of the moments that you've got in front of you in a really healthy way.
It is called the Cathedrals of Connection by a guy named Matthew g Matson, which is quite a fun name, and we talk about his [00:01:00] name. He is a writer, a speaker, a social mystic, and a spiritual leader dedicated to cultivating sacred human connection.
As the founder of Between and innovative and highly inclusive global faith community, Matt invites people to embrace curiosity, conversation, and shared moments of meaning.
Matt lives in Colorado with his wife and his daughters, where he finds glimpses of the divine while running mountain trails.
Sipping black coffee at local cafes, enjoying hazy beers at neighborhood breweries with friends, and savoring foods from around the world at his family dinner table. This was a fun conversation that went all over the place and was a very easy conversation to have, and I think that you will get a lot out of it as well.
Enjoy episode 64, cathedrals of Connection.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly. [00:02:00] If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would've no idea. Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at Universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
How if I get a little loopy. It's your follow up. You told me to drink it. I just show up. I'll also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a [00:03:00] table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way You're doing it in the. Beautiful positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that. Very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.
You had me with herbaceous notes. I want you to know I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is, here we are. Here we [00:04:00] are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy, by the way, drinking this peanut regio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. It makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Well, he is normally drinking hazy beers, but today we get him into wine. Welcome to Cabernet and pray. Matt Matson,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Jeremy, thanks for having me. I'll drink whatever's in front of me. That could be a problem. Or it could be, you know, an opportunity for, for me to just be open to experiences. And so that's, that's what I'm gonna, uh, I'm gonna frame that as, yeah, thanks for
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I feel like that's a recipe for a good time. I am open to drink whatever's in front of me.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Uh, the, it has led me to some pretty good types. And the truth is I'm not like crazy, crazy party guy, you know what I mean? I never have been, and as [00:05:00] I'm old now, I am less of the, in fact, night I was at like a church like staff party for this church that I support, and I had like two beers. And brother, I've been dragging all day today, and you invited me to have another glass of wine here in Colorado.
I mean, it's the middle of the day. Anyway, I'm ready. Let's go, let's go.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Oh, that's amazing.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Um,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Before we even get into what we're drinking, I wanna point something out that I thought was fun. You and I both have, and I don't know what else to call this then. This is what I'm calling it, multi-let name alliteration.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: oh, great. Jeremy Jernigan. I, I had a, uh, Jeff Jeffers, who was my local newscaster when I was
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Okay.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: about the only thing that made me feel okay about my name. Matt Matson. Jeremy Jernigan Is, is fi like, like you don't, it's it's alliteration and delightful and, but Matt Matson sounds like somebody was trying to abuse me when I was born.
The, I, I often say my, my mom said, uh, my [00:06:00] mom stuttered when I was born. I don't think that's true. She does claim that. Oh. She's like, oh, honey, I only ever thought about Matthew Matson. I thought Matthew. I was like, really? Ma? You didn't
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You never thought it would be shortened Mom.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah, she's great. My mom's great.
Yep.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's great. Uh, yeah. So I've, uh, you know, I don't know if you ever have this problem, but I have it sometimes where if I'm writing my name on a form, I will sometimes write my last name on the first name or vice versa, because it starts the same three letters every time. And I'm like, oh, dang it, I wrote my last name, you know, or, or whatever.
And I was looking at your name and I'm like, man, that's gotta be way worse for you. Of like, I, I write Matt every time. And then sometimes I keep going. You know,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah. That's right. I have, I have very little connection to my Norwegian Scandinavian heritage. I, I don't really, but if I bump into people who have deep connection to Norwegians get, like, they're like, oh, Matt Matson, you are you, you are the son of Matthew. Like, like the, the, you must go back generations.
And I'm like, ah, I don't know. Yeah. I'm [00:07:00] a white dude. Yes, you're right about that. But other than that, I don't know much else. And yeah, I, I get confused all the time where I'm writing my name. I do it all the time. I do that. I do that all the time. Yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: are you, are you secretly like a Viking exists in your heritage?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: If I told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore. The, uh, I, I, I don't think, I don't think I fully know enough about Viking culture to appropriate it into my life, because I'm
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: violent and I'm not entirely sure I would, I would, uh, live it real well if I claimed it, but, uh, yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yeah, I mean, I watched the show Vikings and it was pretty intense. So that's, that's my, that's my level of understanding of Vikings.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Uh, if you give me an ax and send me into the woods, feel pretty cool about it, but I'll look like an idiot. So that's, uh,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You might not make it out,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: right. That's exactly right.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: especially if it's cold.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh, especially if it's cold. Yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: All right. I love it. Okay, so now we've established who we're talking to. Let's talk about what we're drinking. Today I'm [00:08:00] going to the Promised Land for, for what's in my glass. This is authentic 2021 Temperance Hill Vineyard, Pinot Noir from Oregon, from the Willamette Valley.
This is made by my buddy Nicholas Keeler. Um, everything he makes, I love, I I often talk about, he's like a magician with this. And I, I tapped into this last night purely for preparation, Matt, not because I wanted to this, I was working, I was researching for the episode and, uh, it's just a delightful pinot noir.
It has, the way I like to describe Oregon. Pinots has like a refined, elegant spice note that you don't get in California Pinots. But then this one has that minerality to it as well, earthy notes that you often would assume of old world wines like France. And so the technical, and I, I can't even say this with a straight face.
The technical way you would describe this is, I'm picking up forest floor notes, but when you say that people give you a look and they're like, you are. Pre [00:09:00] pretentious, right? So I'll say that for the winos out there on the episode, but to everybody else's be like, let's, it's got some earthiness to it, but it's fantastic.
I'm enjoying it. That's what I've got. What do you got in your glass today? I.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Uh, today we're drinking a, uh, Tobin James, uh, from the Central Coast of California, from Paso Robles, Paso Robles, uh, the James Gang Reserve, uh, 2019 Cab. I, uh, um, okay, here's, here's the story. Uh. Two spring breaks ago, last spring break, somewhere in there. We took our kids, Megan and I took our kids and we, we were like, let's just go to California and let's have an adventure.
We've been to California before, but let's, let's make an adventure. So we started, we flew into San Francisco and flew out of San Diego. I live in Denver. And so we, we just kind of did that triangle. We flew into San Francisco, did some stuff, and then drove down the coast and stopped in Paso Robles. We didn't know anything about it.
It was like kind of halfway, and we were like, let's make it leisurely. And so we went with my wife and I and [00:10:00] our two teenage daughters. We went to some wineries in Paso and we'd never been been there before. So first of all, we were saying it wrong. I probably still am saying it wrong, but we were like, oh, a Paso Robles or a Paso Robles, which seems appropriate to the, Nope.
Everybody like corrected us and was mad at us about saying it wrong. So Paso uh, and. We, we go to first we're, we've got one reservation at a winery to do a tasting. And before we go there, we, we drive past this other winery that's almost closed, like it's almost closing time, but they're flying two flags out. They're flying an American flag and they're flying a Chicago, like a city of Chicago flag. Well, my wife and I met in Chicago, got
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: and married when we lived in Chicago. so we're like, let's go check it out. So we turned in, there we're the only people there. We talked to the guy behind the bar and he pours us a couple tasters and we're like, Hey, is this is, do you have Chicago connections?
And, and he's like, yeah, actually the owner is from Chicago, like her family's from Chicago from a long time [00:11:00] ago. And he's like, do you wanna meet her? She's right here. And, and she walks out and we end up having this conversation with this lady. That is, that was so cool. So rich. We're looking at all the pictures on the walls and there's all these old black and white pictures like mobsters in, you know what I mean? And she's like, oh, these are my family. And so we start talking about old World Chicago
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yeah.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Chicago mobster stuff. Anyway, great experience there just, and we're beaming. We've had a little wine. And then we go to our appointment over at Tobin James, which is like a, a tourist year spot in Paso.
It's kind of the big one that I think a lot of people go to. And we end up sitting at the bar and doing a long tasting. My oldest daughter sitting next to us at the bar, just like watching and learning and listening and
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: day, like for her first time, like really getting into what is wine about? Like why do you guys like wine? And then my youngest is like playing a a Atari video game over in the corner. She's having a great time. We end up. [00:12:00] you know, it's a good wine tasting when you say yes to the pitch at the end to
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Oh yeah.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: club where they're gonna
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yep.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Uh, well, we've got plenty of Tobin James in
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yes you do.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: downstairs because we are proud members of the Tobin James Wine Club because day was so full of, I don't know.
The memories that we have of that day are so simple. It's just like us sitting around talking, not, not
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: anything, not about anything profound, day itself lives in our memory, I think for all of us as this profound day. And so I'll drink any cab you give me, especially a California cab. I'm a Napa guy.
I'm, I'm loyal to, to, uh, that beautiful soil of Napa and what it gives. But this Central Coast Cab had is maybe not as, uh, heavy, uh, as a Napa, but really, I, I, it's. Oaky. It's full. It's, it's got a lot of stuff. What [00:13:00] I realized when I took my first sip of this is how long this lives in your nasal passage as like a, I felt like my nasal passage got encased in wood and like I could just, like, it just stayed, but it was really still really sweet on the tongue, but the wood just filled, uh, the senses.
So anyway,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's called the, the long finish in the biz.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: that's what
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You got a long finish on that. That is one of the most. Incredible explanations of what's in your glass. We've had from a guest, I'm gonna be honest with you, and I feel like Tobin James needs to pay you
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: No.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: sponsor, at least sponsor this episode. I mean, clearly that was quite the plug for them.
So Tobin James, if you're listening,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: the
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: reach out.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know their tagline. I've gotta dig into the,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's incredible. I will say, as an aside for, for any wine lovers on, on this episode today, listening in, uh, that's the [00:14:00] way to go. If you want the good stuff, go to a winery that you like, become a member there, where then they are sending you direct bottles because that's the stuff that they don't sell commercially and it's going to be way better.
So like what I'm drinking today, you can't find out a store. It's directly from the winery and, uh, it's always gonna be better. And yeah, you have to usually commit to X amount of bottles a year, but a lot of 'em aren't crazy. And so they're just felt like a good plug. If, if you want to get, get serious in your wine journey, that is a way to go.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Uh, no kidding. The, the, there's always one or two extra like bonus bottles every, every shipment. And it's, it's stuff that, uh, they don't, it is not, if they do have it listed on their website, I mean, it's incredibly expensive to buy retail
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yeah.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: directly there, they're just throwing them in to the, to the shipment. Yeah. Anyway.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's great. Alright, so I got a question. I'd love to ask guests to establish a little bit of your [00:15:00] story for our listeners to kind of figure out who, who are we talking to today? What, what's your background? The question is this, if you look at the last 10 years, specifically in your life, how would you say your faith has changed in that time?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: uh, dramatically. I, I grew up, I grew up in a way where I went to church, but was very quickly bored by church. I
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I was disenchanted away from church. I, I did not experience, I do not have a story of church trauma or church hurt. Um, but I do have a story of, of church, like being so poorly delivered
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: as a kid that it just sucked all the spirit out.
Me and I went for decades with nothing. To quench the spiritual longing I had inside. Um, I mean, I, I just, I was so, it, it just seemed dumb to like boring, dumb. Like [00:16:00] I did not get it. And I just, I had cool moments there. I can look back and I could trace all these cool, like, high level spiritual moments, moments that filled my soul moments that let me know that I am a spiritual hu human.
I, I, I have that part of me, but I just could not find it in the spaces that were presented to me as a kid. And then, yeah, about a decade ago, I mean, I think we, we, we looked for a local church because we had young kids at the time, maybe a little over a decade ago now, and found one that was not only, um, inclusive and welcoming and uh, affirming and all the things that I was, you know, sort of looking for on my checklist of, okay, if I'm gonna find a church for my family, it has to be these things. But it was also fun and it was also, um, uh, our pastor. So I go to this ecu, my home church is an ecumenical, uh, P-C-U-S-A United Methodist [00:17:00] and UCC Church has all three denominational affiliations. And, uh, our senior pastor, his name is Steve, he's a good friend of mine. He, uh, he's, he's got a cool story. He was like one of the first responders to the Columbine shooting at Columbine High School back in 99.
And he's a, he's just a, a really fascinating pastor, but he's also, he's also kind of a hippie man. Like, he's kind, of new agey. He's, he's, he's just, he's open to whatever. Uh, and having that example for, for me, having an example in front of me that said, you are trying to experience spirituality by accessing different languages. But you still want a faith home where we're centered on Jesus and we're centered on, on this particular faith language. Um, you can come here, this is a place for you. Uh, and if that makes you uncomfortable, that's okay. That's gonna make a lot of people uncomfortable. But we're gonna be a place that is actively welcoming, actively [00:18:00] affirming, and not just affirming of identity, also affirming of, peculiar takes on faith and. diverse points of view when it comes to looking at these old ancient stories and the lessons they're trying to teach us. And so these last 10 years have been transformational for me. So much so that I started a ministry. I've, I've led this ministry called Between for the last, uh, three or four years now, uh, wrote this book, which is funny considering I still identify with the kid who is so bored by church or by faith that it, it just is not even a part of my identity.
And now, uh, I've got this book coming out into the world and I've led a ministry for multiple years. And it, it's, I preach at churches all the time and it, it, I almost have a dissonance of. that guy who spent so many decades of his life disconnected from faith now has placed himself in the center of faith, the faith world, and other people's faith lives. And I feel like an imposter sometimes. I
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: uh, um, I feel like I don't belong. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't [00:19:00] have all the childhood stuff that everybody else, that other people might bring to this. Uh, and so anyway, that's, uh, maybe my last 10 years has developed dramatically and beautifully, but also dissonance has shown up because of maybe the, you know, where I came from and where I am.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I love that because I think that comes through in your book in a really healthy way. Because you, you frame, the way you frame the conversation in, in the book is this, this kind of, or not stereotypical, uh, theoretical conversation at a, at a coffee shop. And so, you know, you kind of, the book starts where you're sitting down with you and you're having this, and then at the end, you know, you, you're cleaning up.
And, uh, it's just kind of a funny way to, I've not seen a book do it that way, but it's almost like you're having the conversation. But even the way you had the conversation, you didn't put it in a church, you put it in a coffee shop. You know what I mean? So I can, I can totally af after reading your book, I can see all that in you.
But I think you've, you've found a way to, to marry that together really well where you're able to be you, [00:20:00] you're able to bring your insights to it and bring the church angle to it. But it's not necessarily
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: perhaps the most stereotypical way.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: man, I, I really appreciate that. I, I think I wrote this book for who I was, you know, probably 15 years ago that, that's, I wrote this book to that, that guy who was coming, who was maturing and who was, uh, really aching for something spiritually, just didn't, anytime. And even in my young adulthood, you know, when I'd gone and experimented at other churches or popped into other, had just left disappointed, disappointed in people.
And some of that was maturity, but also disappointed in like. Is this all, this whole, this whole institution, this massive thing, this Christian thing, this is all it has to offer. Uh, I, I just didn't, it, it just didn't connect. And I
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I've grown to have a different perspective on that now. And if, you know, 48-year-old Matt was to walk into some of those places that 25-year-old Matt walked into, I'd probably see it very differently and understand the people differently.
But what I [00:21:00] really wanted to do with the book, I think is write to that guy and say, Hey, it's okay. Like you don't, you don't have to go find the right church tomorrow, but your soul can be cared for, can be nurtured, uh, in the next encounter you have if you choose to open yourself up that way, if you choose to, to see the next space, the, the, the next encounter you have and the space between you and that person in that encounter.
If you choose to see it as sacred, man, you're, it, it's okay. Like you
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: can have church right there.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yeah. I love it. So let's talk through some, some of your ideas in the book. The way I love to do these interviews is I, I highlight a number of things that sent out to me that I think this would be interesting to have you elaborate on, and we let you go wherever you want to go with it. So I. We're gonna start with a great one first though.
So this is this. I was like, clearly this is question number one of, of what I have from your book. You say, I believe that even small talk about the silliest of subjects like our affinity for watching grown men [00:22:00] hit balls with sticks can invite us to connect on a truly sacred level. So Matt, let's talk about baseball.
Are you a baseball fan?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: uh, uh, I am, I am, I'm trying to be a fan of other sports as well, uh, but I. I'm such a baseball fan that I've really kinda edited many other sports out of my life. And even in the off season, and my buddy, who, by the way, where you took, there, there's a chapter where you took that, that little quote from, uh, where I tell a story about me and my buddy, my best friend Matt, uh, the night the Cubs won the World Series. Uh, and, uh, staying up really late with him. I wasn't with him, but we stayed on the phone like crying a a a about, about the game, about the World Series, about 108 years of, of, you know, no championships. But, but we were crying about so much more than that. We were crying about how much we meant to each other and how baseball [00:23:00] was this, this little thing that our big relationship was centered on.
So, yeah, I'm a baseball fan. Jeremy, you're you're a baseball guy. Yes. You're a
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I'm a, I'm a huge baseball guy.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: right?
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yep, yep.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I'm, I'm so much of a baseball guy. I have five kids. They all have Yankee middle names.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh my gosh. Will you tell me all your Yankee Middle? Is that okay? Is that okay to share on the
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yeah, it's fine. Uh, so see if I can remember 'em all. I got a lot of kids. Uh, okay, so our oldest, his middle name is Mattingly,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yes.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: after Don Mattingly. And the way we,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: yeah, the way we got into it is I actually tried to have that be his first name
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: well,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: would be Mattingly. And I thought, contrary to your mom, I was like, we could call him Matt.
Shorten it, right? And then, you know, it would just be a different version of the long name rather than Matthew. It would be Mattingly. But,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Love it.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: but my wife didn't go for that, but she, she did agree. She's like, well, we could do the middle name for that. So I was like, game on. Then I got really bold with number two and I thought, [00:24:00] is there any chance I could talk my wife into making this a thing that we do?
And so our second, I kid you not, his middle name is Jeter.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh, I was gonna guess Jeter. I knew you'd go Jeter
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yep.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: go Jeter
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You gotta go Jeter. So I got Mattingly at first, who was my, when I was a child, he was my favorite Yankee.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yep,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Jeter was like the next era,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yep,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: uh, of that. Then we had a girl and everyone's like, oh, too bad you can't do it anymore. I'm like, this is how wrong you are.
Her middle name is Ruth
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: after the babe.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh. Not the, not the book, not the Old Testament book.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Oh, no, no, no.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Babe.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yeah, no. Anyone who knows us knows that's not, that's not an Old Testament name. That that is a Yankee name. That's the Yankee Ruth, not the Old Testament. Ruth. That's amazing. So then number four. So our little two guys we fostered and adopted, and it was actually really cool when we officially adopted each one of them, which was, uh, a couple years apart.
Um, giving them a Yankee name was kind of like [00:25:00] our way of saying, you're one of us now. Like, you, you like this name has be, you know, you've become part of this family. And so, um, number four, his middle name is Bera.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh, great.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: five is DiMaggio.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh my God.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And, uh, you know, to me, middle names, at least in, you know, American culture are, are largely throwaways.
You know, most people don't use them unless they use an initial, you know, occasionally. Uh, and so we're like, let's give our kids a story. Like let's have something fun with this. So the, um, so that they all, you know, get to tell that like, oh, actually my, I'm named after this Yankee player. And, you know, no one believes 'em at first.
They're like, okay, sure. You know, uh, your, your middle name's Jeter. Yeah. You know, and it's like, no, like legally on my birth certificate, it says, you know, Jeter. So I'm into it, man.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: what a perfect way to prove the point I was trying to make in that chapter, and from the quote you pulled out that, that sports Yes, I, I do. Small talk is small talk, and the truth is I'm like one of those guys who. [00:26:00] I want to jump into the deep end as fast as possible, learned over the years that small talk is actually typically a way for us to key in on something that is right below the, like the,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: talk might be on the surface, but right below that.
Right? I mean, you're talking about, you're talking about ba you're talking about Derek Cheater, whatever, like Don Mattingly. Yeah. You like Don Mattingly. Who could, you got some baseball cards who could No, li I like him so much that I named my first child after. Like that is, there is, that is, that's about as real as it gets, man.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: It's true.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: there is, I'm, I, I can only Ima, you and I could spend three hours doing baseball conversations that are not baseball conversations, that are conversations about
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Let's do it.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: and about what's meaningful. Let's do it. Yeah. Different podcasts. Let's, okay. Yes. Yes.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And I, I won't, I won't spend our time on this, but I actually got to meet Don Mattingly [00:27:00] and tell Don Mattingly that I named my son after him with my son there. And Don Mattingly signed a baseball for him multiple different times. This has happened with Don Mattingly. Don Mattingly is a class act, if anyone is wondering, um.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And then my, my second one's like, when, when do I get Jeter to Jeter to sign my stuff? And I'm like, he's harder to get to
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: than Don is, but, alright, we'll move on from baseball. But, uh, I, you, you had me, you had me at baseball when you started going there. I was like, ah, this is a good guy. This is a good guy.
Alright, so I think this is a good transition to some of the maybe bigger ideas in the book. Um, but when you talk about this whole thing and, and even hearing a little bit of the way you described the last 10 years for you, this all kind of helps make sense.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yep.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You say, this topic has been my obsession. This concept consumes me for some reason.
I am absolutely invigorated by the idea of sacred conversations. I believe they are the unspoken glue that holds society [00:28:00] together. That's a bold, bold claim. Matt, why, why do you think this is the unspoken glue?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah. I, I think we give so little credence to the one thing that stops wars and starts wars. The one thing that. Uh, keeps marriages together and makes marriages end in divorce. The one thing that determines whether your kids, uh, how your kids remember you, the one thing, and I really believe that that one thing happens in the space between you and those people we just named.
Right? You and the people around you, you and the, All we've got is this, this space right here. This is all we get to influence others, to learn from others, to grow. And, and I think maybe to the theme of the book, this space right here, all we've got, this is it. This is the only place where we can live out this faith that we claim to [00:29:00] believe in so deeply. I'm not sure what else matters except this space right here. The way you and I fill this space between ourselves, I, I don't, I don't know. I can't find in Bible, I can't find, I can't find where it tells me that anything else matters more than the way I show up for you right now, the way you and I are together in this space right now.
And so, yeah, I think, I think all the problems of our world, and you and I could list those pretty easily, are rooted in our collective inability and the way we have built a society to train us how to not be good at these moments of interaction. We've got a society that. Trains us and encourages us to avoid each other.
And when we do interact with each other, to interact with each other in extremes, to
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: other out of our life or to tear each other down or to, uh, right. Like the, all we all we're looking for are either [00:30:00] superstars or villains where the reality of real living is in the way share an hour long cup of coffee with our friend or our neighbor or somebody who we just met and what we can fill that space with.
If we can feel, not only each other's truths, but I offer, I think somewhere in that mix is God's presence. And, and for me, it's the easiest way to access it. So, yeah. Yeah. A bold statement that, uh, this is, this is the big thing that has led us to where we are, our inability to interact, our inability to connect.
And Jeremy saying that even sounds like cliche. It sounds like, oh, like this. That's not a real, it's not a hot enough take. It's not cool enough. I, I don't, uh, yeah, I know. This is my point, man. Like, like, this is the, the healing of our world depends on our ability to slowly, patiently, lovingly show up for each other in little interactions.
One after the other, [00:31:00] not one big one that's gonna solve everything. A million little ones that we choose every single day to show up in a way that we named, that the space between us is sacred and we're gonna treat it that way. And when we start treating it that way, I, I just deeply believe that the result of that over time is transformational.
Uh, and
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: and that, that's what we're called to do.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I, I a hundred percent agree with you and here's why I think it's not cliche. After reading your book. I found myself, and this is probably the best plug I could give for you. I found myself in a moment with someone else where I was tempted to downplay it, to just think, okay, how long is this gonna go?
When's it gonna go? And because I had just read some of your book, the thought popped in my mind, this is your sacred space right now. Don't, don't miss it. Take advantage of it. And just that little nudge reminded [00:32:00] me, don't check out of this. This is it. And it was an invitation and I chose it to go, I'm, I'm going to engage here.
I'm not gonna check out. I'm not gonna say, okay, you know how much time is left? No, this is, this is that sacred space. So I think that's. That's the the plug I would give for anyone to read your book. It's not that you're going to argue something they've never heard before, right? It's not that kind of a book.
This is a book that's going to remind you and motivate you hopefully to do the thing that you probably already know, but you're probably not actually doing and you're probably missing a ton of these moments. And another line you had that I thought, this is again so beautifully simple and yet I love this.
And it's like this needs to be verbiage we use, you say it like this. This is such a great way to say it. You are invited to the simplest church on earth, my favorite church. The space between you and the next person you encounter. And to frame it the way you do as this is church, right? Not, [00:33:00] not out there, not in the building, not when you go into the nonprofit.
No, this space is church. I thought what a great way to name that, because like you said, this is where you live out your faith.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah. First of all, that last little bit you did that endorsement. Clip it, post it, send it. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You can have it.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah, thanks. Uh, you said as you were, as you were saying, all that, you were like, when, when you were in that conversation after reading a part of the book, like, no way, this is the sacred space.
Don't miss it. That Don't miss It about as close to my thesis as possible. Um, there's a, there's a section in the book where I, I tell this, I tell a brief story, a little anecdote about my oldest daughter a while. Anytime I would go on a plane ride, uh, like I'd, I'd go on a trip, a business trip or whatever. I used to travel a ton for business. And right before I left, [00:34:00] she would always say, Hey daddy, uh, make the most of this trip. And I don't know where she came up with that little line, but it was this cute little line that she'd say to me over and over. And I started to like obsess over that line. Like this idea that the most of this trip and that, you know, don't miss it. That this is it. We only get one trip here. This is, this is the trip. Make the most of it. Don't miss it. And yeah, again, it, it feels cliche, but this, I love what you said. This book is not, I am not revealing the ancient wisdom that finally, finally, somebody's revealed.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: it down. Yeah.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: no. I'm just, I'm just trying to remind people.
That's why I think it was so hard to get this book published is because it's not, it doesn't claim to be the hottest take. Oh, this is gonna blow everybody's mind. No. It's like, no. What we all need is just the gentle reminder, a gentle invitation that. To not miss it, to make the most of this trip. To, [00:35:00] to not wait for Sunday to think that I'm at church and to act in the way that I act at church.
Only when I'm there on Sunday, if I even go
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: instead tomorrow. That, that when you push pause on this podcast and you go to the grocery store and you're talking to the person, checking, checking out, checking the out. You, the person who comes over and fixes the automatic checkout machine. Let's be
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: after, after you self checkout.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: right. Yeah. The self checkout fixer person. When that, when you encounter that person, like you get to choose like how, how will you encounter that person? That's it. You that I know that's silly. I know that's so simple and elementary and it's not word theology and it's not, you know, masters of divinity level.
Uh. Um, but I, I, I just think it's the one thing that we failed to do consistently. All of us failed to do. Me especially fails to do consistently, and I have to be reminded of it consistently [00:36:00] because I only, don't wanna miss it. And I wanna make the most of this one trip that I have.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You have a line actively choosing to see a momentary encounter as sacred is a holy act in itself.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Mm.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And I think that's, that's the, the reframing right, is learning to see every single moment of your day can be a sacred moment. And when you just start your day with that premise. When I'm, when I'm in the grocery store, when I'm in a hurry, when I'm running late, when I'm whatever, every single moment can be sacred.
That perspective change, I feel like sets you up for awesome things to happen.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah. I get in trouble, uh, uh, by, from my churchy friends because I often talk about conversation as a sacrament. and some folks don't like that, and I get it, and that's fine. But I, the idea that the next conversation I have is, uh, if I treat it as I
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Sure.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: a
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: [00:37:00] I.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: as I treat it as I might treat receiving communion last Sunday at church when I was there, and, and as much meaning to it as I add to the little wafer and the little drink of grape juice that we do at our church.
Like if, if I could honor it in the same way. Uh, I just believe the moment we choose to do that and then choose to do it intentionally and start to add, like, ask ourselves what are other ways that we can honor it? How, how can we build it out? How can we, how can we make every interaction as sacred as possible? I, I just think that that act, that intentional act is a holy act. I, I really believe it can be a holy act and I think I, I think I wanna invite people to try it, at the very least.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: It's so beautiful. So let's, let's go there. Let's, let's make church people a little uncomfortable for a moment. 'cause you have a few things that you, you poke the bear a little bit and I, I appreciate this. You, you write this, this is, this is a little bit longer quote, but I want to, I wanted to read this whole section.
Church does not require [00:38:00] pews or prayers.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Hm.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: It does not require candles or crucifixes. It does not require steeples or sermons, offerings or oaths. Strip it down to its bare parts. See the beating heart and frail skeleton beneath the robes. It is us right now in this space together. God is revealed in this space and on this ground we stand upon in this ordinary, un adorned and unordained moment.
That's poetry, man. That is, that is a beautiful invitation to experience a much bigger church.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Thanks brother. The. As you read that back, I, I was even, I was struck by that, the line of the like frail skeleton beneath the robe, right? Like it is us. There is a, um, something that I have found challenging in, in the faith world as I've entered [00:39:00] it, uh, full heartedly over the last, you know, especially the last five years, is the level to which people point to, the ordained the frockt. Uh, and, um, not just respect them, but like place them on a pedestal in a way that is so unhealthy and so, so, um, problematic and, and in such a way that. Harm can't help but happen because of the power dynamic That, and I'm, I'm not, this is me actually not necessarily blaming the institution or blaming the pastor who is in the power position. I'm blaming everybody who's involved because everybody who's involved is in, in building the pedestal, in, in, in setting the idol of the pastor on top of it and pointing to them and saying, and giving them, granting them authority, granting them power over their life. deep, deep respect. I, I [00:40:00] think I help obviously, for both the institution of church, but also the institution and the, uh, the education and the preparation of ministers and pastors and priests and guides.
But, but I think the, the power that we put, that power is built by feeling like. The only place that is sacred is inside the church walls, or the only person I can talk to about my spirituality is my pastor, or Right. All of these man, these power dynamics are so obviously messy. I'm not the first person to suggest any of this, obviously.
But the, and, and especially not on your podcast, many other brilliant guests have been on your podcast recently who have done this very well. But if, if we can, I believe, inviting people to start to see this space, this space between us right now, or the space between you and somebody at a coffee shop or at a dinner table or at a, uh, over tea as, [00:41:00] as sacred as any other church you've ever been in as any other cathedral you've ever set foot in the moment you choose to, to, to honor it.
The same way I, I actually believe that starts to slowly crumble some of the harmful power dynamics that are built into the institution and that have done much, that have caused so much pain to so many people over the years.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I a hundred percent agree with you, and I am an ordained pastor.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, it's funny, I, here's something I'll say to you. Uh, I'm considering, uh, uh, diving into coursework that might lead me to being pointed to and lifted up as an ordained pastor, for complicated re for like, and I, I find myself like both pushing back against it and saying, I don't want to be that I am, I wanna be on the edge of the inside.
There's a plug for your new book, Jeremy. I wanna be on the edge of
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: March 31st.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: there we go. I'm excited. [00:42:00] But I, by the way, I use that phrase often. I don't know whose phrase I is
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: It's Richard Roars. Yeah.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I I
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And I give him credit. Just, just everybody know I give him credit chapter one
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I always try to give Aurora credit, but then I always wonder if is, is it Roar quoting somebody like Francis or something?
But I, I think
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: if he, if he did, he didn't give credit. 'cause where? Where I read it was Roar.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Good. Okay. Okay, good. Uh, but, but that I love, I, uh, part of the reason, uh, you've picked a great ti you've picked a title that hit me right in the heart, because that's part of how I identify in the faith world is I am, I believe, uh, in the inside. I believe in the institute.
I actually believe in church. I, I really do. I, I think it's wonderful and I am, I'm uncomfortable getting too close to the middle of it. Uh,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yeah.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I am on the edge of it.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Come on. Come on.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: if I'm on the edge of it, I, but I, I feel like that's where, that's where the hurt is.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Mm-hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: of it, is where the, uh, is where, by the way, [00:43:00] there are people in the middle who also are actually deep inside on the edge back here because they're hurting, they're longing and they can't talk about it though, because the middle has so much stuff, right.
Has so much weight and so much baggage and so many expectations. But on the edge is where his work. Jesus was like, that's literally where he was. Anyway, I'm excited about your, I have no idea what your book's about, but I assume it's
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I was gonna say,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: man.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: have you read it? Geez, man. Let's go. Like you're just, yeah, just unpacking it. Just so I, I love this. Um, I'll use your, your video. You can use my video and we'll just clip it for each other. That's amazing. Uh, no, I think that's this. Maybe this is why I resonated with your book so much. As someone who has lived in, you know, both worlds of living in the center, living on the edge.
I'm not a, I'm not personally offended at all. You know, when I read your book and you start kind of poking at the idea of church.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Because I, I have sat there, I, I have felt the adoration upon me and realized this is [00:44:00] funky and this is not healthy. And, you know, and this version of me today is very, we weary of that, very cautious of that.
Trying to figure out how do I, how do I help people see that, look, I'm one voice among many. We, we together are what this is about. And you know, I think your book does such a good job of, of all offering an, an imagination of what it could be, of, that's the thing that people often say was, if it's not that, then what is it?
You know? And that's, that's a really, it's a great question. It's a very hard question to answer because we've had, you know, almost 2000 years of this kind of a model to build it. And like, well that, that's been established, you know, century after century. And something new I do believe is emerging, but it's gonna take a while and it's gonna be kind of funky.
And I think learning to have sacred conversations with the people around you is a great. A great first step. Um, another quote I love that I thought makes the point in kind of a different way than, than your other one, [00:45:00] but you say, don't we want to encounter God at times in our life that aren't filled with actual crises?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Hm.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Which I was like, that is when people often have this moment and then you say, shouldn't we meet God outside of hospital rooms and funeral homes? And again, I just thought you, like, you're reframing all of this of like, these are, this is when we have these profound moments with God and you're just like, yeah, cool.
But also like could happen this afternoon, you know, after work or I mean like that's the invitation. And again, do you, I mean, how do you help people ignite that imagination of like, it's not just in these, you know, when I walk into the church building or when I walk into the funeral home or when I walk into the hospital, like, like really getting them to see every single space you walk into can be that cathedral for connect.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah. I think, uh, you know, part of. Part of the challenge that I think people have with [00:46:00] making ordinary moments feel sacred or naming ordinary moments as holy or sacred or whatever. think part of part of it is that, that we've associated so many symbols and so much specific language to things that are holy and sacred.
Right? We've, we've obviously church, but, but also, um, like we have to talk about je we have to say Jesus, in order to be talking about Jesus or, or to be talking about our faith, we have to, in fact, uh, this is, I I may go off topic here, but the, the actual first ministry I started, uh, that has grown into what is now between, and I'm proud of it.
It's, it's cool, but what it, where it actually started was. asked to, um, officiate my buddy's wedding, uh, a few years ago. And I was, it was a small little wedding and, and a really beautiful, it was in Mexico and it was, it was [00:47:00] awesome. Anyway, after the wedding, we were all at a big dinner table. Like it was just family only type thing.
And, and me as the officiant. And it was really important, like, I felt really honored to be there. And it came time to give the blessing. And Jeremy, I don't know why, but I have a weird like tick where if you ask me to pray out loud, I get, I'm a professional speaker. I, I, I have been for decades. I now preach regularly, praying out loud, I don't know what it is.
Uh, uh, like, but I, I think it's like this subconscious thing where I, I took seriously Jesus' instructions to like go someplace quiet and just closed the door, right? Like, uh. so I immediately get self-conscious. And anyway, so we're at this wedding, uh, it, it's a, the reception after this dinner. by the way, I, my faith is significantly different than most of the people in [00:48:00] this family.
It's a pretty, it's a pretty, uh, a pretty evangelical, uh, Christian family. Uh, and they turned to me 'cause I officiated the wedding and they're
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You're the guy.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Grace? Yeah. And I was, I, I mean, I panicked Jeremy, but, but, uh, my buddy's stepson who is, who is sitting right next to me and who knows me well and who like had read some of my stuff, uh, is like, Hey, about I say the, how about I say the prayer and you just say Amen.
And I was like, brother, that is the kindest gift you ever could have given to me. And so, because of that instance, I actually started. an Instagram that was about daily prayers, like me practicing, praying in public daily on Instagram.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: that's literally where my, my ministry started from a, self-conscious, like, I know I
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I'm not good at this.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I'm not good at this, so I'm gonna do it publicly. I'm gonna do
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Yeah. Yeah. What a way to learn.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: first. Yeah. Yeah. And so, uh, but that was, [00:49:00] I, okay, so I say all that because the thing that made me self-conscious was that I thought in order to pray right, I had to say all the Christianese words I had to say, you know, like, all I had to start the prayer the right way, say in the prayer the right way, say all the special Holy words in the middle of it, that people mix in people who are good at this stuff.
And I, I just, then I, I practiced it for a while and realized, oh no, I don't have to do that. No, I
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I can pray in my own way. I don't, I don't have to say in Jesus' name in order to pray in my heart. Through a Christ presence like that, those are separate issues. I do not have to say these words to know this truth or to to live in this reality.
And so, uh, do people actually get to the place where these ordinary moments can feel sacred? I think part of it is detaching s naming, pointing to naming and detaching some of the, some of the barnacles [00:50:00] of Christian culture that have been stuck to our lives over the years that aren't actually real.
They're just things that look, that, that we believe are what it takes to be Christian enough or to be faithful enough. And maybe if we start taking these barnacles off, we can get to what's actually true underneath it. So, I dunno, I, this wine's starting to kick in, so I'm not entirely sure I was, uh, anywhere close to an answer to a question that you may or may not have asked.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: This is the fun part of the episode, ladies and gentlemen.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Hmm
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's fantastic. You know, it reminds me I have, for different reasons, I have a similar problem, but my, my reasoning is different. I am very logical. So what I will often find, and this is doesn't matter if I'm praying by myself or in public, I will start to pray something of God and then my brain will logically check itself and go, Hmm, is that theologically accurate?
Does God actually do [00:51:00] that like in real time? So I'd be like, God man, we come to you and we pray for, and I'll like say something in my brain, I'll be like, Hmm, I don't think God's gonna do that because that's not how God works. And it's like, dang it, did. You know what? That's, that's true. That's not how God works.
And then I'm like, self editing and it's, it is a problem where now I have to just like, just power through it. And, uh, I've never been great at prayer for that reason of, I get stuck where, you know, I, it's not just this natural conversation. Whereas I've had to, you know, I remember one time Mother Teresa was asked about her prayer life, and this is a brutal paraphrase of this, but, uh, said something where, you know, um.
I, I just, uh, I, I sit and I, and I listen. That's what, that's what prayer looks like, you know? And they're like, oh, you just listen to God. You know, what, what is, what is God? What is God doing? And then she said something like, well, you wouldn't understand.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And they said, what do you mean? And she said, God listens too,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: ed.
It was like this idea of no one's talking.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: [00:52:00] Wow.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And I remember hearing that quote, and again, I'm probably butchering this in, in some way, but I remember hearing some essence of this idea. And I'm thinking, can that be prayer too, where you just sit in the space of like, I don't know, but I, I, I trust you're there.
And so for me, I've had sometimes where like I'll be reading a theology book that will be pushing my mind somewhere. And I just kind of, in that moment, I'm like, Jesus, you're here with me right now, like processing this. And like that does more for me than whatever I'm gonna pray and ask for. So I don't know if that's complete heresy, but that's where I relate with you.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah. Well, what definitely is complete heresy is me, is me connecting that, that story of Mother Theresa listening to God listening and a chapter in my book, cathedrals of that, that would be heresy, but I'm gonna do it.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: This reminds me of.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Speaking of, but, but there is, like, there are, I found myself writing about moments in my life that I called Moments of Sacred, moments of Sacred Connection, [00:53:00] where nobody was saying anything. There's a, there's a, a chapter I know I wrote about me and my daughter on a long car ride basically saying nothing except like, occasionally, I'd, I'd like, you know. Touch my hand on her shoulder and be like, I love you kid. She'd be like, yeah, I love you dad. And that was it. And then maybe like at some 0.1 of us was like, wanna get a milkshake on the way home? The other one was like, yeah, it sounds great. And then, you know, and then listening to the music like me saying that is church me saying that is a cathedral is heresy.
I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure somebody, I'm sure plenty of people don't like that. And Jeremy, I don't know any other church I'd rather be at, uh, especially in a moment like, like to, to feel the presence of something far greater than either of us and far greater than. And yeah, maybe psychologically this is just, you know, the rhythm of the road [00:54:00] changing the, the, you know, the rhythm of my brainwaves.
I maybe, I don't know, but it sure felt some, it felt godly. It felt like this thing that I keep praying for, this thing that my soul. just so hungry for these moments that are truly transcendent and and beyond anything else, just people listening to people listening. That's a really powerful way to frame it.
Jeremy, uh, good job, mother Teresa.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Way, way to go. Mother Teresa, you were, you were onto something there. All right. I have one more question before we move on to, to my, uh, my lightning round for you. This is about you. You mentioned your ministry between that you run and so I, I did a little digging on it and I found a phrase that I thought was intriguing.
I wanted you to explain this to us. I noticed on the website for between you have this line, this is fantastic. This is A-B-Y-O-B, bring your own beliefs, community.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah, yeah,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: [00:55:00] Unpack that for us 'cause that's an intriguing idea.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah. I, I think there's a lot of people who think that the moment they step into a faith community, they've gotta drop everything that they brought with them. And, uh, adopt whatever food is being served, right? Like whatever, spiritual or, um, maybe not even spiritual, whatever doctrinal or, or dogmatic food is being served. And, uh, I I want to create a faith community that is literally the opposite of that. Or I don't have any food to serve you. Uh, I mean, I've got some, I've got some stuff you can explore, but I'm not offering it with certainty or with, as though it is truth or as though it is. Um, I just offer it as this is how I'm understanding this idea today, and I'm, I'm more curious about what you're bringing. I think what, what I've learned is that when I invite people into conversations like that where I, I am genuinely and fullheartedly and wide openly just curious, uh, what
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: what do you, what do you think. Uh, I have, [00:56:00] my faith has gotten much stronger because of, uh, what I've allowed in, uh, than it has because of what I, uh, I have blocked out. And so bring your own, bring your own beliefs. Abs, like, I mean that sincerely bring whatever you're bringing. If it's, if it's out a different faith tradition, a faith tradition that is, uh, that is a little wacky or a little fringy, cool. Bring it. as long as it's, uh, rooted in love, as long as it's something that is bringing us closer together, which by the way, I think all the big ones are, and even most of the little ones are all kind of pointing at one thing.
They're pointing, they're pointing us toward each other. They're pointing at togetherness. Uh, I, think the deeper we dive into our own spiritual understandings and even our own written faith traditions. The more we'll see that they're all pointing us in the same direction. And that is togetherness. That is, [00:57:00] man, I'm, I'm doing this long sort of, I'm, I'm back in Old Testament stuff right now, kind of digging through. I'm in First Samuel, but I'm, I'm doing a, a long reread and, and I'm just so struck by all these old, old stories of, of war and conflict and violence, and I think so many people pick up the Bible and they're like, this is what this, this book is about is war and conflict and violence and, and no, no. Like, no, like if, if we read the whole story, if we look at the whole plot of the whole look, take the whole story, the whole book, it's pointing to those things, talking about how horrible they're like, how, how so distant from God they are, over and over and over.
Like it. The Bible beats you over the head with. Stop doing this stuff, start coming back together. This is the whole point. just New Testament, you know, liberal, uh, progressively framed. Jesus. I'm the whole thing. All of it looks at [00:58:00] this, this, this story seems to point us back to each other over and over and over.
And so, oh gosh, I don't know. I, I don't know, Jeremy. I'm just gonna keep drinking this wine. I'm gonna keep, praying out loud. You know what I mean? That's what I was just,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's a good, that's a good time to transition to our next section, I think.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: okay.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Let's talk about wine for a moment. You, you started with a, with a heck of a story
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: about Tobin James. So I, I, I want to see if you can top that. That might be, that might be the story you, you have, but I like to ask people, when you think about the best wine you've ever had, is there a, a moment, a memory that comes to your mind?
And if so, can you think about what, what it was you drinking, where you were drinking it, who you were drinking it with, why you were drinking? Do you have a story when you think that was as good? As I could have ever imagined it with wine. [00:59:00] What comes to your mind?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I have three different stories. I'll just tell one, one story is about, uh, when I was really young and, and discovered like, first my first wine, like, like, oh my God, wine is incredible. Wine is wine. Blows your brain off. If, if you can it like, like really enjoy it. I'm not gonna tell that story. That was a, that was a Lodi Zen that I drank in Chicago and a little wine bar and it blew my mind. Uh, story is the story. I will tell a third story. I, I won't but it, but it, when you say what's the best wine I ever had, it was actually a Sterling Cab, which is pretty retail available or anywhere around the certain, that's still Silver label. Uh, but it was a, with a friend in Washington, DC over just an intense, beautiful conversation.
But the story I will share is in, I love doing wine tastings, man. Like wine tastings are so fun. I don't like what took me so long to discover this in my life. Wine ta, wine tastings are so much better than going out to the club you guys like, like don't go to the club.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Go to
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: on now. [01:00:00] Preach.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: We are in Napa.
This is our 10 year an our 10th anniversary, so this is 10 years ago. My wife and I are there with another couple that we're really close with, and we did a little 10 year anniversary, leave the kids with Graham and grandpa go to Napa. By, by the way, the most expensive trip I've ever, I've ever taken. Napa is so dang expensive.
I've been all over the world. This was, uh, I, I'm still reeling from debt from this, you know, four day Napa trip. But we went and it was great. We went to all these wineries toward the end of the day we go to, matter the name of it, but it's a big commercial sort of, uh, like sparkling wine winery. I can't remember the name of it.
Doesn't matter. There are probably six different buses of Chinese tourists in the, in the parking lot. I mean, it's packed, like it's big. This Disney world of wineries in Napa we had gone to a bunch of smaller, cute, cute ones. And, um, and so we walk in and we're like, oh God, this is, this is terrible.
And this is the end of the day. We'd had a fair amount of wine and we'd had a great day. [01:01:00] So my, my friend and I, uh, the other husband in this, in this pairing of two spouses, um, we, we go up to somebody and we're like, Hey, hey man, I know there's like a long line. There's all sorts of stuff. We, we just want to, we, we just wanna buy a bottle of wine and like, go hide someplace away from the crowd.
Can you help us? And the guy was like, yeah, bro. Totally. He was like, uh, I'm gonna pull these two bottles of wine. I'll, I'll, I'll put 'em on ice for you. Uh, and we were like, great, here's our credit card, whatever. And so he hands 'em to us and he's like, Hey, there is a picnic table about 200 yards around the corner outside of this building.
Take a left. It's where all the workers go and take their breaks. a beautiful view. Nobody will be there. I mean, there's thousands of people in this place and he's, he hands us a, a bucket. It includes the bottle of wine we bought and another bottle that he gave us for free. And he is, and, and four glasses.
He's like, have fun. [01:02:00] it was, and we sat at this crappy, you know, beat up wooden picnic table. That was essentially the break room for the staff. this sparkling wine, looked over like at, at the end of our biggest day of Napa tourism and like just shared this moment that the four of us will talk about until our grave man, like the, it was so, it was perfect.
It was a perfect afternoon. The sun starts to set. We're pouring each other sparkling wine. We're laughing, we're telling stories of the day. We're talking about how much we mean to each other and to this day. Uh, from that trip. Our families still travel once every year or every two years. Uh, and we, we, like, we make it a point and we retell that story of that picnic table and those bottles and that guy who cared for us that day. Uh, anyway, that's a, that's a story that I will tell from that. That was a
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's,
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: day.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: that's so beautiful. That's a great story. Well, well done. We've, we've got a, we've got a [01:03:00] wine aficionado on the episode today, so I, I love that. So I'm excited for this, this question. Which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you and who would you not trust and why?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Jesus' Mom, Mary, Mary Mary is the answer. The Virgin Mary, the, the, the blessed
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You're going married to pick the wine for you?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: percent.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Okay. Okay.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I think I have this story right? I, I could be, you know, my biblical history isn't perfect, but the way I remember the story of Jesus turning water into wine, they're at a wedding.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Mm-hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: And the wine, the wine's gone. And like, it's like the party's dying. Like I picture myself at a wedding and it's like, oh God, the bar, this open bar, like they're out of booze. Like, what is going on? Like, everybody's like, oh,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: It's bad news.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah. And here's what I think happens in the story. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Mary, and there are many Mary's in the New Testament, but I'm pretty sure this is Jesus's mom is like, Hey, Jesus, hey, why don't you [01:04:00] go, uh, you know, turn some water into wine. Like that's, I'm pretty sure that's the story. I'm gonna go back and read it after this Jeremy. Everybody else will too. But don't read it until after you've had a couple glasses of wine. The uh, and I'm pretty sure like, Hey, why don't you keep this party going, bro? Like, come on buddy. Like, let's go little guy.
Let, why don't you go turn the water into wine? Let's keep this party going. So what does he do? He is like, okay mom, I'll do it. Like, I'll, I'll go. So here's what I think. I think Mary. Was is like, uh, I think she was a connoisseur. I think she'd be super fun to go to a winery with. I think we'd have cool stories to tell and she'd be, she'd be super chill, you know what I mean?
She'd have this beautiful, our Lady of Guadalupe Glow going around her once. She had a, a couple glasses. That's what I think. Yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: So I've had a, this is a fun fact for you. I've had a. Winery owner and winemaker, uh, on a previous episode who made an argument about this story that I had never heard before.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Hmm.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And his, his argument was that Jesus had done this previously.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: [01:05:00] And that is why Mary said to him, they're out of wine. Hint, hint.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: and the way he said it is, do the thing.
Do that thing you do, Jesus, do the thing.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: And, uh, which I think is fantastic, if like Mary's like Jesus, do the thing, they're outta wine.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Okay. So you got Mary, who, who are you not trusting to get you a bottle? Yeah.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Hmm. Who am I not trusting to get me a bottle? Um, you know, I used to, I, I've grown to understand Paul in new fresh ways, uh, in recent years, but for years, Paul would've been my easy answer to that question. Like, Paul, when I first started reading, you know, Pauline's stuff and like trying to understand it, I was like, what is, what is up this guy's rear end man?
Like, what
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: He doesn't seem like the, the most fun guy to hang out with.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: doesn't seem like a fun guy. I, I think he is. I think, I think, you know, he's got work, Paul, and fun. Paul. I'll bet there's fun, Paul, like after work Paul get drinks with
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: You need to have a few drinks in him [01:06:00] before he probably is a good time.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: All right. So that's, so we got Mary, Mary and Paul. I like it. Uh, that's fun. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Oh, like every, every, all of it. Yes. Yes. Ha. Uh, here's, um, that's fun. I have a, a short little chapter in the book where I tell a story of when I was probably 16 years old and I was yelling at my mom, uh, about how I didn't believe in God. And, uh, and basically demeaning. I was, I was just like being a jerk, like a jerky teenage boy who, which is who I was for, I think, a fair amount of that, those years.
And I was just being mean to her. Like, I, I don't believe in God. I don't know why you'd want me to believe in God. Like, like, why you, why you feed me these lies, you know, that kind of stuff. And so, uh, that I, that's a big, you know, answer, but [01:07:00] that, that is a visceral response. Like that is, story is not made up.
That story, before I put this book out, I had to like, to my mom and be like, Hey, I'm gonna tell this story be, I don't even know if you remember it, mom, but like, it is, it lives in my heart. Uh, shamefully, to be honest, like I feel real guilt around this. I feel real just sadness that I would ever have talked to you that way, that I ever would've been so egotistical.
So, so like big, like what is wrong with me? Like, what a jerk. Uh, anyway, that's a, that's maybe the real answer to that question.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I remember reading that story and I was like, wow. Like you, you can tell your, your emotion came out in that story. That, that was a, um, that was a profound moment for you.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: yeah.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Alright. What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Money. Uh, let's start with money. Uh, the, the, finance, the economic [01:08:00] system, uh, that is holding up the church. The Capital C Church is a really weird broken system. It's, it's. it's beautiful. Theoretically it's wonderful, but in practice it's, uh, it's just become a, a guilt, a guilt game, and a power game.
Uh, if you don't, if you don't give or give enough, um, you're, you're hurting the church if you do give, you think you have all the power for a, for a local church. So money, money is the big one that I don't know much about. I'm not, I'm not an expert in that department, but I can't not say that before I say anything else.
I think the, um, I, uh, I, I don't know. I don't know what else. But one other thing I'll point to for sure is that we have decentered human connection. Uh, human connection. This book is about such a simple thing. It's about, the way we fill the space between [01:09:00] us and that feels like when I talk to many of my close pastor friends, they're like, yeah, I get it. Yeah, that's what the whole thing's about. Yeah. But like, I got all these programs I gotta do. I got all these bills I gotta pay. I got these pews I gotta fill, I got this, these people I gotta please. I got this board I gotta worry about. I got all these, all these politics, all these denominational things I gotta, I gotta post on social media about all these things.
And so the one thing we that is really easy to just forget about and to shed from our church lives, from our faith lives is actual sacred human connection. And so part of what I want to do is just help remind people that. if that's centered, everything else gets better,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I actually think our finances get better if that's centered.
I think our churches grow. If, if human connection is centered, I think people are more engaged, more committed, more willing to volunteer for things more, uh, more eager to do the things that our churches actually need [01:10:00] them to do. Um, but it, but it starts with recentering, this really simple thing that is easy to, easy to say.
Yeah, well that's too simple. Let's talk about bigger, more urgent, more flashing things. So
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Right. That's good. What's something blowing your mind right now? What are you learning?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: I'm going on a, uh, we're taking our spring brick vacation to Rome or, or to Italy. Rome is one of our stops. Um, but we're staying for the most of our time in Italy. We're staying in Assisi. And so I'm diving pretty deeply into St. Francis
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: like trying to just. What a story of this, you know, this, this guy who comes from major, major wealth in a time where, where money was, you know, was the Middle Ages, but the but money, like money people.
There are these families with all this money and power, and he comes from money and power and what's he do? He abandons it all. But then what does he do? He recruits a, a group of 12 people, or as legend goes, he [01:11:00] recruits, recruits a group of 12 people, and the first of which is also super wealthy and has to abandon all his wealth. And so it feels really relevant. It feels really, uh, personally challenging to, you know, me living a life of comfort, uh, right now and, and trying to give my kids a, a life of comfort. All those things feel hard and real and gritty and, uh, so I'm excited to go to Assisi and, and experience that. Also, by the way, on that trip, we're hoping to see the Pope.
Uh, we're gonna be in Rome on Palm Sunday, so we're gonna try to join the throngs of people. See, oh, that's fun stuff. That's, that's really interesting to me. That's. What blows my mind is, is my feet on the dirt of real life, um, faith expression of, of other people's real life faith expression. Like,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: not, not, I, I just, I wanna be in the middle of it.
I want to be next to people as their, as they're, as they're having profound moments. I wanna be in [01:12:00] the place where those things are and I wanna feel that dirt and, and be in that, that, that air. So yeah, that's kind of blowing my mind right now.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's cool. What's a problem you're trying to solve?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: A personal problem I'm trying to solve with myself is patience. I want to build a giant growing, flourishing ministry full of millions of people and tell that story because that's, that would make me feel good. Um, building a ministry that is actually a ministry and that is actually one that is caring. It's a very personal, very slow, small project as it turns out.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: And that's been a hard lesson I've learned over the last several years and a lesson that I know, uh, plenty of other with big ideas who show up in the faith space, learn over and over. But, uh, the problem I'm trying to solve is not how to grow my ministry.
The prob the real problem I'm trying to [01:13:00] solve is to teach myself that the people in front of me, a small group of people who are willing to open their hearts and souls alongside me. Uh, that's everything. Like,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Hmm.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: to treat that as everything that's, that's the problem I'm trying to solve right now.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: That's good. What's something you're excited about?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Um, man. Okay. So I'm gonna stay on a theme. We got, uh, we got a couple trips coming up Rome, but by the way, we're flying Turkish Airlines, so we're connecting through Istanbul. We'll be going to our first as a family, going to our first, uh, sort of Muslim majority country. and so I'm excited about that.
But then we booked a summer trip. We travel all, like, our travel is, we don't, we don't have a fancy house. We don't have fancy, I don't have any retirement. Like, uh, we've, we're bad at money because we spend all our money on traveling. We, we believe, somehow we've convinced ourselves that if we take our kids all over the world, something good will come from it.
So, uh, we are going to, in this summer, we're going to Dubai [01:14:00] and Greece.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Wow.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: is a fascinat, like UAE, the money, the, the, the like, like biggest buildings, the flashiest stuff, the most famous people, the Glitziest stuff, and you know, the oldest gold market in the world and the, like, the, these old, small. You know, Muslim communities and enclaves and these beautiful expressions of local, really local faith in food and culture. And so I'm really excited to expose our family and me like, like to walk into spaces that are outside of my comfort zone, respectfully and humbly and wildly curious and, uh, and probably difficult, uh, to navigate.
Uh, but I am into it, man. I, I'm really, truthfully, I'm just excited about that upcoming travel.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Man. That sounds super cool. Alright, is there anything else that you want to mention that we haven't covered yet, but we could not close this episode without addressing?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: [01:15:00] No, man, I, I don't know why I didn't write a book with a glass of wine on the front cover.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: YI mean, it would've, it would've been better. I'm, I'm, I'm gonna acknowledge it, but you'll be okay.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Okay. The sequel. The sequel
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: The sequel Better have a glass of wine, Matt.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: is? The sequel is Wine, caves of Wine, caves of, uh, I don't know, something. Wine caves
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: I will write the forward to that version.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: wait. I can't wait. Great. That's gonna be great.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Uh, that's great. Okay. So if someone's like, Hey, I dig this guy, I dig this ministry, you're talking about the book and all this, what's the easiest way for people to connect with you online?
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Yeah, I'd, I'd send people, right now I'd send people to cathedrals of connection.com. That's the website and it has all the links to my personal website, uh, to between, it has, has the link, but between church is where you can go to our ministry. Um, I write, uh, I write weekly, uh, through, through the between ministry.
That's, it's mostly my writing right now on our [01:16:00] substack. Um, again, you can find all [email protected]. You can pre-order the book and you can, um, you can click around at a bunch of other stuff that I've got in some other, um. You know, some other things I've written about the book, but also things that I'm writing on a weekly basis, uh, about the intersection of faith and human connection.
Everything that we do lives at that intersection. This book lives right at that intersection, obviously. And so if anybody wants to figure out new ways to, you know, to, to make those little ordinary moments sacred, that's exactly what we're trying to teach every single week. And we're trying to pull from different faith traditions and dive into deep spiritual wisdom to see, uh, see maybe what it has to teach us in new ways today,
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: It's beautiful and the official launch day is.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: February 24th, coming up soon. February 24th, 2026. Cathedrals of connection will, will be, I don't know, wherever you buy books.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: Excellent. Well, Matt, it has been a delight to get to talk with you today. Your book's. Fantastic. I'm excited for people to take [01:17:00] these ideas and make sacred moments in their every day.
So thanks for the nudge and thanks for taking the time to talk with us today.
matt-mattson--he-him-_1_01-05-2026_130713: Thanks, Jeremy. I appreciate it. I'm gonna finish this class of wine and probably go take a nap because I'm aging.
jeremy_1_01-05-2026_130712: On that note, hey everybody, thanks for tuning into another episode. We will see you on the next one.
