The Mountains Shall Drip Sweet Wine (with John Anthony Dunne) | Ep. 66

February 11, 2026

What if the Bible’s most familiar wine stories have been quietly misunderstood all along? In this episode of Cabernet and Pray, Jeremy sits down with New Testament scholar John Anthony Dunne, author of The Mountains Shall Drip Sweet Wine, to uncork what Scripture actually says about alcohol. From the wedding at Cana to the myth of “biblical grape juice,” they explore how modern anxieties have flattened a far richer, more embodied faith. Find out why wine was never just a metaphor, but a theological statement about God’s generosity and presence in the ordinary.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/PpMW6yzzJmA

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Episode Transcript

The Mountains Shall Drip Sweet Wine (with John Anthony Dunne) | Ep. 66
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[00:00:00] Here's what Thomas j Ord, the author of Open and Relational Theology, had to say about my upcoming book, the Edge of the Inside Releasing March 31st quote. I love Jeremy Jergen's writing style, but I love his questions, reflections, and proposals. Even more many readers will relate to what Jeremy explores, and many will find his insights helpful.

I do get this book to take an adventure in living and thinking. Well end quote. If you'd like to read a copy before it comes out, we'd love to have you join our book launch team. You can find out more at edge of the inside.com or at the link in the show notes.

Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray,

where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. And today is such a cool episode. We are talking about someone who has thoroughly researched what the Bible says about alcohol. In ways that you never even thought of. And so if you're like, yeah, [00:01:00] I think it says this, or I'm not sure, we've got the guy that spent 13 years working on the book for it.

His name is John Anthony Dun. He earned his PhD in New Testament at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. Under the supervision of a guy named Professor NT Wright, which you have probably heard about if you've read Christian books. He's the associate professor of New Testament at Bethel Seminary in St.

Paul, Minnesota, where he has taught since 2017. He is the author or editor of 11 books, including his most recent, the Mountains Shall Drip Sweet Wine, a Biblical Theology of Alcohol. John hosts an annual international boders bottle share reception. Uh, say this 10 times fast at the annual Biblical studies and religion conferences every year.

And uh, so he has the Society for Beer Lovers and Assorted Academic Research. This is a guy that [00:02:00] is hard to put into a box. He's an academic who loves a great beverage and is gonna explain to you why you should too. This is episode 66. The mountains shall drip Sweet Wine.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would've no idea. Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.

Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at Universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little [00:03:00] more of a punch than I expected.

How if I get a little loopy. It's your follow up. You told me to drink it. I just show up. I'll also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.

We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way You're doing it in the. Beautiful positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.

It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that. Very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.

You had me with herbaceous [00:04:00] notes. I want you to know I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.

It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy, by the way, drinking this peanut regio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. It makes sense now.

Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Well, believe it or not, you can grow up as a Fundamentalist Baptist and then later write a book all about alcohol. Welcome to the podcast, John.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: So much [00:05:00] for having me.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hey, we are excited to have you. I mean, this is one of those no brainer fits for this, uh, for this whole podcast. I mean, we've got a guy that literally, if you ever like, I wonder what the Bible says about alcohol friends. We've got the guy today. I mean, this is the guy, the book more than you ever knew You wanted to know about what the Bible says about alcohol.

This, what this book has. So book is called The Mountains Shall Drip Sweet Wine and incredibly detailed. I'll just say that. And so you, you went into things that I had not even thought about and uh, I'm excited for our conversation today and to, to get your take on a few things and a few recurring themes.

That we've had on the podcast, we're gonna have you weigh in on it, so we'll get your take on it. But before we do, John, we're gonna talk about what we're drinking today. And I don't know how many podcasts you get to actually drink wine

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: right.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: about your book.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: it's

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: So we're gonna do it today. So in [00:06:00] honor of you, I, here's my transition.

Ready. Sometimes I try to pick a wine to go with the topic in honor of you, your, 'cause your book does a great job explaining how wine in the Bible is not just one thing, right? It's not just a good thing or a bad thing or this, it's all these things and your, your book goes into all those things. So I try to figure out what's a complicated wine that I could to do that's multi-layered.

And I, I am opening up this bottle. I got this on a recent trip to Spain. It's called Five Finca from Perta. And I don't know if you've ever heard of Perotta. It is the most insane winery I have ever seen in my life. I've been to a few.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: found out later, we didn't even know we found this thing on TikTok.

We're like, let's go check it out. It's like a top 20 winery in the world. It's all underground. It's like the cathedral of wine. This thing is absolutely beautiful. But this bottle that I'm drinking today is a red blend of five different vineyards [00:07:00] that they own with seven different varietals all in this bottle.

So this is like them showing off. Here's all that we have. We try to put it all together to, to make something. And it's beautiful color. It's a deep red, it's got that cabernet souvignon kind of vibe to it. But I'm getting graphite, green belt pepper, a lot of really interesting notes. So I'm enjoying this all the way from Spain.

I was the importer for this. So that was, that's what makes it extra special of like, you did a trip, you figured out how to get it back. So I imported it myself.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: You

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I, I did, we got a case. Uh, we made it, we kind of made our own case of this and a few others from there. But. That's what I'm enjoying today. I brought out the good stuff for you.

So John, what do you got in your glass?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Well that's amazing. I mean, first of all, lemme say I need to check out this, this winery.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Mm-hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: uh, I, I wish I was, uh, trying your wine, uh, with you. 'cause that sounds fantastic. Uh, well, I, I am, I'm excited, um, with, with the wine that I have as well, though, uh, this is, uh, St. [00:08:00] Croix Vineyards. They're Marquette now.

Marquette is a cold, hearty varietal from Minnesota. It was created, it's a hybrid, uh, varietal created by University of Minnesota professors, uh, at one of whom runs the winery out in Stillwater, Minnesota. Uh, Pete Hemstead, he's, he's been a part of the creation of, I think, six or seven different varietals.

Um, it's a winery that I volunteer at, uh, on occasion. And, uh, they let me make my own wine there too, which is

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Oh, that's super cool.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: yeah, it is, it is, it's great to get the kind of hands-on, you know, kind of experience that, uh, that, you know, not. Growing up Fundamentalist Baptist. I definitely didn't, uh, didn't have, but,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: That wasn't in your childhood.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: no, no.

And especially, you know, growing up in Vegas in a, you know, in the desert and the, just the kind of the, the farming side of wine making, you know, was just like, really not something that I had much experience, uh, with. And so it was, it was great to find out about them and to [00:09:00] be, uh, kind of plugged in and to, to get to know the, the, the wine makers and the, the, the people who worked there and just really loved it.

But, so this is a Marquette, it's, it's, it's a red, uh, red wine. And it is, uh, probably, I'd say, you know, kind of medium bodied. It's, it's not super sweet. Um, I think it's, it's really delightful. It would maybe, uh, what would be a good comparison? Not exactly like a pinot pinot noir, um, you know, may maybe SI don't know what the tasting notes would be either.

I'm, I'm not so great at that, but I, I, I, I would say it's not super sweet, it's not super fruity, but it is. It is delightful. It is tasty, and I, I enjoy it for, for especially, especially being something from Minnesota, I felt like I just needed to, uh, represent it. 'cause this is, this is where I live now, so it's, uh, it's delightful and I'm, I'm glad to be, uh, enjoying this, for this conversation.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Excellent. Well cheers to you and cheers to our listeners if you're able to [00:10:00] enjoy a glass with us. And you're not, you know, running errands or exercising, then, uh, then save your glass for later. But if you are, uh, we hope that you can enjoy it as well.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Or perhaps if you're exercising, I mean, my, my, my mom and I, my mom and I like to do wine walks where we just

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Okay.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: and walk around the neighborhood. It's, it's probably not something you should be doing, but uh, you know, in Las Vegas, you feel a certain freedom, I guess. And so,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I suppose that's true.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: something we have enjoyed many times.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Well, there you go. Listeners, if you want to do a wine walk on today's episode while you listen, uh, John endorses it. So there you go. That's fantastic. Alright, John, as as our listeners may not be familiar with your story, one of the questions I love to start with is to get a little glimpse in your journey, your own evolution as a thinker and just your experiences with God.

So I like to isolate it to last 10 years. If you were to think about the last 10 years of your life, how would you say that your faith [00:11:00] has changed during that time?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Hmm. Yeah. Well, the last 10 years is interesting. I graduated with my PhD 10 years ago this June. So, um, it, it, that is, that is definitely a benchmark. Um, I don't feel like my faith has changed so drastically in the last 10 years as it probably did the 10 years before that, if

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Okay. Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: that, that, that 10 year stretch, because that was, that was a year out of high school through to the end of PhD, I feel like my faith evolved.

Uh, and, and pun intended, actually, my, my faith evolved in that, in that space, you know, out of like King James only is young earth creationism. Um, you know, a lot of the things that I, you know, no longer ascribe to, uh, I held, uh, you know, because that was. how it was. It wasn't even like, oh, I've been convinced of this and there are other options.

It's like, no, no, this is what Christians think. Right?

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Right.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: with this, you're like, not Christian. I remember having like the hardest time. I, uh, what was [00:12:00] that, um, that documentary about, uh, intelligent Design by the, you know, clear Awe Is Red a that what, what, what's that guy's

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Oh yeah. Yeah. Ben. Um,

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah. He, he had the game

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: uh.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: for a time. I, anyways, can't think of the guy's name, but he, uh, the, the documentary I think was called Expelled. And I remember just having like the hardest time watching this little bit where it said that there was like a, a professor at Baylor who is, who is, uh, kicked out, or, or, you know, at least that was the alleged, uh, part of the, in the, in the documentary it was alleged that he was kicked out because he, uh. Espoused intelligent design or something like that. And I remember thinking, wait, wait, Baylor's a Christian school, you can't be Christian and teach biology. You know, I was just, 'cause I just couldn't even like imagine that you could like, believe in evolution and be a Christian. Right. It's

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: just like, that's the only thing I could, I could take away from that was like, wow, you can't be a Christian in Baylor's biology department or something like that, you know?

Uh, so I just didn't even have categories anyways. So a lot, a lot [00:13:00] of, a lot of transformation in that tenure period. But in the last 10 years, you know, it's been, it's been mostly in Minnesota teaching here at, uh, Bethel Seminary. And, you know, we have, we have gone through a lot in Minnesota, obviously currently still going through quite a bit with ICE and, and all of that.

You know, there's this kind of interesting, kind of traumatic, um, uh. You know, really kind of like, I don't know, like we're all kind of trauma bonding or something with, with, you know, post COVID, the, uh, George Floyd, you know, all this stuff, and we're kind of still going through it. But, um, you know, I would say like the, with a lot of other Minnesotans, just like a lot of, you know, disillusionment in the Trump era and the kind of extended Trump era, you know, really since 2016 right?

Or 2015. It's, it's just felt like we've been living in, um, as I, as I said, we've been living in order of the Phoenix, you know, for, for the last like 10 years. Uh, you know, um, [00:14:00] Dolores Sunbridge and,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Solid Harry Potter. Reference for anybody who missed it.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: yeah. And you know, Dumbledore's Army is still recruiting

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah, the DA baby.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: as my, as my friends, uh, like to say.

And I, I agree. But anyways, I, I just, you know, I feel like there's been a, a lot of, know, kind of persisting in the midst of the disillusionment, you know? Uh, just, just that's, I I would say a, a through line is just this, this kind of consistent sense of, of hope, even though, you know, in my core, just like a strong sense of like, you know, there's so much injustice and there's so much absurdity, uh, but just persisting in hope, uh, in the midst of that.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm. That's beautiful. Okay, I'm gonna switch my questions up 'cause I was gonna get to that heaviness a little bit later, but since you've introduced it, let's, let's go there. You're, you're living in the, you know, ground zero for so much of what we're seeing, [00:15:00] uh, uh, we're, we're watching from afar, you know, as ice is, is dehumanizing all over the place.

Literally killing people. You know, as, as we record this recently, he was watching multiple camera angles of, you know, someone get executed by the state on, you know, in the middle of the day. And so I, I think there's these moments, and I, I suspect you have this too, where it's like, kind of feels weird to like, enjoy wine, you know, or like, enjoy things in life when you're like, everything's horrible and like the world feels like it's on fire and like, Hey, let's, let's have a podcast.

Let's drink about wine. And yet I was thinking, you, you have this, this kind of theme throughout the book that you talk about with this connection to wine and the prophets.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: like the way you, you brought in so much of like even God's kind of prophetic interaction with Israel throughout vineyards and all this, and so I thought maybe, maybe speak to that.

How do you see, 'cause to me this is like an era, like I'm finding myself preaching a lot of the prophets right now and like working [00:16:00] those into sermons. This is a prophetic season for the church. How do you see maybe that there are these overlaps where it doesn't like winds us anomaly, but no, actually wine helps us maybe understand some of the biblical imagery that we see with this prophetic voice.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Right. Well, I, I, I just have to say, I don't understand how, you know, you can read the prophets or even, you know, the teachings of Jesus and just think something like ice is worth supporting. You know, uh, I, I, I don't understand you know, what I see just to be a major disconnect. I mean, well, frankly, of course it is understandable when you just take a step back and, and think about how, going back to the Harry Potter thing for a second, there's that, there's this great meme that was passed around.

You know, what's the difference between, people who, who love their Bibles, and people who love Harry Potter? People who love Harry Potter, read Harry Potter. That's the [00:17:00] difference. And, and I, I, I, I really resonate with that. Um, I actually bring it up a lot when I teach hermeneutics, when I teach, you know, intro to Bible or, or intro to New Testament or survey courses. Um, gonna be reading the texts this, this semester because we don't do that as Christians. Just flat out we don't. And just, just acknowledging that because otherwise I don't know how, how you can read the prophets and the teachings of Jesus and support any of this stuff. Um. It, it just is a wild disconnect.

The only way you can is if you just don't read it.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: That's, that's what I think. So, so I, yeah, the prophets are very, you know, crystal clear about certain, um, evils in society, and a lot of 'em, interestingly do relate to, you know, uh, land and, and the, the cultivation of, [00:18:00] of, of grapes and then the production of wine. And one of the things that the, the, the profits are railing against is the socioeconomic exploitation of resources. And so things like drunkenness that, you know, growing up I just thought, well, yeah, it's, it's the thing itself. You, you know, it's, it's, it's alcohol and, and alcohol makes you drunk and you should just avoid all of that and totally missing the way that the profits are concerned with how these resources are being exploited and, and. the poor is being marginalized and neglected and, and these, these sorts of things because people are, uh, enjoying their, their, their ability to have leisure time, their, you know, these kinds of things. And it's, it that's, you know, this kind of, um, sharp critique that the prophets have, uh, when it comes to, when it comes to something like, like drunkenness.

And so, I, I think, I [00:19:00] think. We need to be preaching on the prophets. I'm glad to hear that that's what you're doing. I remember a handful of years ago at my church, we, we did a sermon series, uh, called The Books We Don't Read, and it was a series on the minor prophets. And I did not love the title. I did not love the title at all because I love the minor prophets.

I love the book of the 12th. These are books that I read, but I, I, I do take seriously that the, the title does suggest something about our habits as readers. If we rarely read our Bibles in general, we especially aren't gonna be turning to Amos or, you know, texts like that. Uh, and, and of course the title of my book is, is an homage to Joel and Amos, but, uh, Amos is, is my favorite, uh, prophet from the book of the 12 and maybe just period.

I, I, I absolutely love Amos. Um, so I, I, I very much, I very much resonate with, with the, the question as it as it pertains to, uh, the need for a, a. Uh, [00:20:00] our, our prophetic voice as the church. So many, so many churches, especially even here, even here in in Minnesota, so many churches lacking the mor moral clarity to call out what's happening, uh, and to say that this is wrong. And, you know, you get the both sides is you get the, you know, this kind of, uh, well, you know, well, he shouldn't have been there, you know, or she shouldn't have been there, or, you know, these, these kinds of things. And it just, it's absolutely, uh, irritating to, to, to be honest. Uh, but the, the prophets, um, as you know, in addition to railing, they, they also, and they also are hopeful, you know, there is this kind of expectation that, on the other side of. The judgment that will come because of this, because of the circumstances, the situation. On the other side of that, there will be restoration. And the fascinating thing is the same images that were used to, to, to, to, to speak of [00:21:00] judgment, to speak of what's wrong with society. Uh, there's an abundance of that, right?

There's mountains dripping with sweet wine that God takes those things that have been distorted and misused and mistreated, uh, and, and, and, and works his goodness with it. So I, I, I, I, I see, you know, that is just, uh, one of the most beautiful dynamics of the biblical witness of what's going on with, you know, alcohol.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: That's great. Yeah, I was, I was preaching Amos five recently and in light of what's going on with ICE, and I would say the majority of the.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Martin Luther King Jr. Day, right? I mean, he, he, he loved that. He loved that, that passage, uh, from, from Amos five.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah, and Amos five to me is. To, to preach Amos five in a church is, is like the best, right? Because it's like, you know, God talking about, I don't care about all your, all your church services and all your worship and if you don't have justice, like this is all meaningless. And you know, to me it's like, yeah, this is, this is like literally just teach the text [00:22:00] and Yeah.

You know, when you apply it to current events rather than past events. 'cause we like talking about Jesus in the past tense, but when you talk about Jesus in the present tense, you know, literally people get up in the service and walk out and you know, write anger emails, you know, to the staff and that's what we deal with.

But the majority of people lean in. They're like, oh, okay. I think you're spot on. And this is fasting on two fronts. 'cause you're spot on on the biblical illiteracy piece. Like people today don't really read the Bible. Christians don't really, they go to church to have people tell them what the Bible says, right?

Which is where you're susceptible depending on what church you go to. Because if you go to a Christian nationalist church, you're gonna get heresy preached to you every week and you're gonna be told this is what the gospel is.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I love your book is because I would say your book is addressing another topic that Christians are very biblically illiterate about, which is, what does the Bible actually say about alcohol?

We usually have what we think the Bible says about alcohol. And as I was reading your book, I was just like, there are so many misperceptions that you are just [00:23:00] slamming. I mean, and not like with bravado, just like, here's what that text actually says. Here's what we actually find. And it was one of those, I'm going, I, I wish every person that you know sends me a, you shouldn't be doing a podcast with wine, email, uh, just like, okay, I'm, oh yeah, I'm just gonna send them your book now.

Be like, here's a link. Here's a book you need to read and get off me. Like leave me alone. Um, but I'm curious from your point of view, you've obviously done massive amounts of study in this. When I was reading it, I wanted to know, was there anything that surprised you as you, like, went to a deeper level of this, that you went, oh, I didn't even realize how much this is a thing.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Oh gosh. You know, there's so much. Right. And especially because I signed the contract back in 2013, so it has been,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: cow.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I, I wanna spare you all of the wine fermentation puns about

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Either you work really slow or that is a testament to how deep this sucker is.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: um, I think the, I think the latter. [00:24:00] I'm not exactly slow. Um, I mean, and the thing is, is I was working on other projects, you know, I just, I just really wanted to do this one justice, and, and, and not that that's not the case for the others, it's just that this topic is a big topic, both because, you know, I gotta.

To talk about like how wine's made in the ancient world and, and, and these kinds of things. But I'm not doing, for example, a book on Galatians, which I've done a few, or a book on Esther or, or a book on, you know, some discreet topic. I'm doing the

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Bible. So, so it, it, I just, I just, and I'm the kind of person. That really struggles with, like, needing to be comprehensive. I, I, I, I, I feel like I can't start writing until I have read everything, which is like actually, uh, like a bad habit. And so I try to break myself out of it, but I, I, I can't help it sometimes. Sometimes I just won't let myself write until I feel like I [00:25:00] have read everything.

And now that's an actual impossibility that Right. You're, I'm not, I'm never achieving, you know, being exhaustive. Being comprehensive. But it's like something switches in my brain where it's like, okay, now I can write. And then I, and then I start writing. And so, because this was the whole Bible, I really felt like, I really felt like to do this topic justice, uh, I'm gonna need to, uh, keep asking for extensions, which I did do. Uh, I asked for a few. So, um, you know, many thanks to Kaia Covert at Zondervan, uh, for, for allowing them. Um, but, but yeah. So I wanna say it's more of the latter where, where it's, it's not that I'm, I'm a slow rider, but I did want to just make sure that I, I dove as deeply as I needed to. Now along the way, lots of surprises, you know, lots of surprises.

And I'm trying to think what would be a great example of like a Oh [00:26:00] wow. I mean, I can think of certain ones where, um, the depth. Just was shocking. Um, so like, so the Sour Wine episodes, I don't even really go into it much in, in the book. I turned it into an article because I was going so deep into kind of, you know, thinking about, okay, so you've got some, well. Wine offerings to Jesus in Matthew and Mark that are mixed with something. Mark says it's Mer. Matthew says it's gall, but then in all four gospels you have sour wine given to Jesus while he's on the cross. And I just was like, oh man, this is kind of, this is kind of confusing. There's a lot of different things going on and the details are kind of different.

Like, is L Luke's offering his single offering? Is it a, is it a dissimilar like third offering or is it like a conflation of the two? Same with John. You look at John and you're like, is this John's version of, you know what we read about in Matthew, mark, and Luke? Or is this a different one even [00:27:00] now?

What's interesting is when you get to the early Christian reception of this, it just conflates everything into a single offering of sour wine mixed with gall, which is fascinating because sour wine is not mixed with anything in any of the gospels, and Gall is only mentioned in the first offering of Matthew.

So I was like, okay. I can't, I can't talk about this in the book, but, but, but I, I was like, I want to do an article and I wanna like really dive into like how early Christians are, are understanding this and they leverage it in some like, horrible ways and, and, um, really based upon, uh, I would say a misreading of Psalm 69, where they, they wanna see it as prophetic and, and, and that the gospel authors are developing something prophetic, but they twist it for the kind of anti-Jewish potential of what that would mean then, uh, and, and they, all the implications of the psalm, they like just toss at Jewish opponents and it becomes this highly polemical, highly, [00:28:00] highly antisemitic, anti-Jewish thing. I was really shocked by all of that.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: of course, but that's more of a reception thing. Um, but there were a handful of places where, you know, I just started diving deeper than I thought. Possible, you know, thinking about like Ephesians five, you know, uh, five 18, you know, don't be drunk with wine and which is debauchery, but be filled with the spirit. You know, thinking about that passage a little bit more deeply, I was, I was so fascinated by how the immediate sort of. Reaction of being filled with the spirit or potentially the way to be filled with the spirit. There's a debate about this. Either way, it's singing and worship and, and giving thanks and all these things.

And, and, uh, just was so overwhelmed by that thinking about like, well, what are, what are the contexts in which singing occurs in the Bible is in the temple. This is Levitical activity. Being filled with the spirit is a kind of temple [00:29:00] motif. Drunkenness is not something that priests are supposed to like experience while served.

It's just like, I was like, well, I, I think there's temple imagery here. And then of course, you know, Ephesians has a lot of interesting temple, uh, uh, uh, well explicit passages and then some, um, passages that allude to, uh, the temple in, in various ways just being kind of like, you know, surprised by these connections that I was noticing or, or like, um, wedding at Cana, where, you know, that's a, that's a discreet passage that like. Everybody, everybody brings up all the time with this topic, right? If you're somebody who enjoys wine and you're a Christian and. And, and you have ever had any kind of a debate with anybody who thinks Christians shouldn't drink. The go-to response is, well, did you know Jesus turned water into

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Right.

And, and, and, and then, you know, that's about as far as it goes. It's kind of just the slam dunk, you know, kind [00:30:00] of argument for why Christians can drink. Well, Jesus turned water into wine. Um, but I was just really impressed by. You know, thinking about the ceremonial jars or the jars that are of stone because stone is impervious to ritual impurity. Um, and I, I, I, I go more for the latter point than the idea that these are jars that are strictly used for hand washing. I think rather these are water jars used for drinking water. Um, but, but that idea of like even bringing up ritual purity in this, in this passage, like ritual purity is of primary importance, uh, for with respect to the temple.

You don't go into sacred space. Im pure. Um, and so thinking about that and then thinking about, of course, well, what does John do uniquely is he sets the wedding at Cana right before the temple cleansing. Right.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Right

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: that the synoptics say happened right

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: way later.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: that makes his, historically, that makes the most sense that the guy who did that, it [00:31:00] would be killed by the state.

That makes complete sense. Right. Um, you, you can't get. A stunt like that basically. Um, so I, I think John has moved it forward and a lot of scholars do, right? But it's like, well, why? And I think there's an interplay between Cana and, and the temple cleansing that isn't, you know, usually talked about, which is when you look at the prophetic expectation of abundance of wine. And you think about the predic, the, the prophetic and, and larger biblical association with the quality wine being associated with the temple. Ah, I think this abundance of wine, the, the, the six jars that can hold 120 to 180 gallons of water that now have wine in them, that abundance, right. I think, I think that this is tapping into some of the, um, some of the notions of the temple's association with, with wine.

And so, you know, those are some of the things, of course, that I argue for, uh, and, and develop in, in my book that yeah, I, I, I, I [00:32:00] was, I was surprised. I was surprised at, at how, how, how much depth, uh, you know, in certain passages that, that, that, that I think are there. I was, I was surprised to find, uh, what I found in, in, in, in certain cases.

But in general, I mean, I just. I just had a blast working on it. You know, um, you know, I have a master's in Old Testament, a master's in New Testament, and I just enjoyed that. I was able to, you know, do a, a, a full bible, you know, sort of biblical theology and a project on a single theme. And, uh, it, great 'cause as a New Testament scholar, you know, you're supposed to kind of, you know, quote unquote stay in your lane. Um, but as somebody with, uh, A DHD, uh, you know, uh, I, I, I, you know, my, I have a lot of lanes and so I, I, like, I liked, you know, being able to, um, to dive into, you know, all these different areas, uh, biblical scholarship that, you know, a lot of New Testament scholars might not get to

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Well, I'm glad for the record you [00:33:00] didn't stay in your lane because it's a fantastic resource and.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Cheers.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: It's one of those, you know, it's like, wow, I'll be referencing, you know, passages or, you know, I can see teaching in the, you know, things in the future. Like, oh, I'm gonna go back and see what John said about that and, and rehash it.

One of the things you, you said, I had not considered this, this was, this was a, a surprise to me of like, oh, that's a really intriguing idea, is a connection you made with, um, Galatians five and the fruit of the spirit.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Oh yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I use Galatians five a lot in my preaching today. And the reason why, uh, is because I think, I think Christians are in a season where we're very much about rules and, and you know, kind of guardrails or guidelines of like what's allowed, you know, to do what's not allowed to do.

Uh, can these people, you know, be included or not? And I think of the way we've even talked about, you know, can we include the gay community? Are are they in, are they out? And like the, the way that those conversations happen, a lot of times I try to take people like step back and go, okay, is there anything about this lifestyle that [00:34:00] prohibits the fruit of the.

Inherently prohibits it. And if the answer's no, then let's, let's be open-minded to that as, as a possibility of what we can live, right? Because if that's not negating or hindering and could even be enhancing the fruit of the spirit, like there's something there. So I find like this is a passage. I just preach a lot right now, and I think like Christians like, have this, have this on the forefront of your mind.

Galatians five, we can get so caught up in this to be this or that. Why is ice bad? Uh, how about you compare it to through the spirit? I mean like it works on everything, right? Like it's what it should look like at the end of the day. Here's a quote you say in the book that I think so fascinating, and I'm like, I want to have you just vamp on this.

You write this, the ninefold nature of the singular fruit of the spirit resembles a grape cluster with nine grapes. So you're talking about the fruit of the spirit. Now you're talking about it being wine. And I was like, praise Jesus, John. This is beautiful. [00:35:00] I already like the image. Now I'm thinking of the image as a great cluster.

That's fantastic. Expand on that 'cause this is, this is incredible,

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Well, so, you know, it's often said as a kind of misstatement, right? That Paul talks about the fruits of the spirit, and it is technically singular, but there's nine of them,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: right?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: so people are like, well, you know, thinking about like, what's the image? And I think the best way to conceive of a singular, but like, you know, uh, distinctive set of, you know, elements of that fruit is, is a cluster of grapes.

Um, and that I think is, uh, you know, I, I think that's a, uh, a, a great image. I think that, I think that works. I mean, what, what other fruit has that kind of, you know. You maybe can think of like something like pomegranate seeds or something like that. And actually, I wrote a short book, um, on, on Galatians called [00:36:00] Reading Galatians, and the Cover Art is a Pomegranate.

So, so I, I, I, and, and, and that was the association. It wasn't my choice. Uh, but I, but I appreciate them, uh, you know, picking a fruit for the cover because I do think the fruit of the spirit's really important. I love your kind of like hermeneutic of the fruit of the spirit when thinking about ethics. I think that's great. Um, I would have liked a grape cluster on the cover of the reading Galatians book, but I already have a, a book with a grape cluster on the front of it, so,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Can have all your books, whether they're just grapes.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so a pomegranate, you know, is good for some diversity, uh, I guess. Um, but, uh, you know, the other, the other thing about, about the fruit of the spirit too is like. It is so interesting how it's abstracted, and this is a point I make in, in that, that short book, reading Galatians as part of the Cascade Companions, um, the, the way that the fruit of the spirit is often talked about too is it's, it's so abstracted from Paul's argument in Galatians. Like, [00:37:00] it's so often, you know, something that like, will be like maybe in a little Bible study, it's like on some Chevron on, you know, someone, someone's, uh, notebook or something like that, you know, and it's like, now this is part of an argument.

And not only that, but just a few verses before that, like the same guy who's talking about love, joy, peace and like all this stuff, and even gentleness, he says, you know what? I wish referring to my opponents, I wish they would cut the whole thing off. Right. Galatians five 12, just a few verses before that.

And I just think, okay, when we're talking about the fruit of the spirit too, we have to, we have to keep in mind the, it's not just like this, you know, particular, uh, I don't know, set of like. Like abstract virtues, but like, it's, it's part of like Paul's gospel too, you know? And it, it shouldn't be abstracted from that.

So, so I, I very much think like that fruit of the spirit is, is so important and so crucial. And it, of course, [00:38:00] I think also needs to be kept in its context as part of Paul's argument, uh, for, for, for the role of the spirit in, in, um, Christian life. Uh, there, there's some interesting discussion about, um, what, what's going on rel you know, with the ju Gentile, um, dynamic in, uh, in, in the letter.

But I would say for, for Christian life, uh, in Christ, the, the s role, uh, of, of anyone who's in Christ.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Well, I just, I just think we should offer, you know, when you have a nice glass of vino, it's, it's liquid fruit of the spirit. Like that's, that's how, that's how I'm gonna drink it now. Just, just imbibing the fruit of the spirit in, into my life. Okay. You addressed something in the book that I think most people are very aware of, but they probably don't know what it's called, and it's the two wine theory.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Oh yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: as you were talking about, I thought this is such a good thing. We've never addressed [00:39:00] this on an episode yet, but I, I think it'd be really good. It's probably something a lot of evangelicals have grown up with without realizing it. Like I never heard it called this, but I definitely grew up with this idea and have heard it a ton.

So describe what is the two wine theory and why is it bullshit? Let's go there.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: it's complete bullshit. Exactly. So,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: why So, so what is it, so, so two wine theory is the idea that maybe some of the references, not all, but maybe some of the references about half actually, uh, references to wine in the Bible aren't really referring to wine as we might think of it in terms of like an alcoholic beverage, but rack. But actually it's just referring to grape juice. So like basically half of the references in the Bible, uh, to wine are actually to grape juice. And, uh, the reason why half wouldn't be is because, well, there is drunkenness in the Bible and there, there are these kind [00:40:00] of like, you know, negative passages about, you know, what, what wine can do.

And so really kind of the, the way that people who hold to this two wine theory operate is they say, well, if there's negative associations and if there's drunkenness implied, then that's, that's alcoholic wine. But if, if there's anything positive, if, if anything is beneficial, then that must be grape juice.

Right? Now this is, you know, basically an, a prioritized decision, right? People who hold this view, they've basically already determined that there can't be anything positive that's said about an alcoholic beverage in the Bible. Right now, what, what ends up happening is there are a couple of. I guess in, I wanna kind of do it in scare quotes.

There are a couple of scholars who have argued for this. Uh, I, I want to put it in scare quotes because this is not taken seriously by scholars to, to [00:41:00] be clear. Um, but within certain ideological, like, you know, I ide ideologically bounded groups. Um, this stuff is really popular and influential and, you know, a lot of readers might see this section of my book, like in chapter two and just think, oh, we're past this.

And it's like, yeah. I tried to write this book for anyone, not just people who drink, but anyone. And that includes people who might actually still hold to this view or not realize that they are influenced by this perspective. And they don't actually know like, why it's wrong and, and why it, it, it can't be.

Right. And so. A lot of it just boils down to not understanding how fermentation works, not understanding what happens when you crush a grape. Um, you know that there's yeast, uh, on the skin, in the air, on the equipment, et cetera, that is going to naturally start the fermentation process and fermentation gets going straight away.

And it can be [00:42:00] extended over a period of time, depending on conditions like temperature and, and, and whatever else. But it is something that will get going and you can't like stop that without understanding how it works in the first place. And ancient people definitely didn't understand how it works. It just happened.

It was a miraculous thing. It was, it was like a divine touch, you know? And, uh, when contemporary people look at. Wine in the Bible and say, well, there can't be, you know, all these references to alcohol. They're first of all importing a modern kind of prejudice onto the ancient world that wasn't there. But also they start to make some, uh, assumptions about how wine is made that just do not work.

So, for example, I was just, uh, watching some Jesus films. 'cause I, I have a book on Jesus films coming out, uh, in, uh, in a, in a couple weeks with my colleague Janine Brown, and we're teaching a. Class on Jesus films. I just watched this film called The Last Supper from [00:43:00] 2025. It was made by Pure Flix, which is an evangelical film or evangelical, uh, film company. And, um, there's this, there's this scene, uh, well it's the last supper, of course, but, but you see the bitter herbs. So this very much like Passover, Seder kind of, kind of vibe. see the bitter herbs and then you see this like plate of grapes. There would not be grapes in the springtime, like grapes are harvested in late, late summer, uh, early fall.

And then you either turn 'em into raisins or you turn 'em into wine. Like you cannot preserve them all the way to, to the springtime, right? So you might think, oh, that's just a kind of harmless whatever. It's just, you know, the decor on the table except for the fact that right after you see those prominent grapes on the table. This like wine merchant guy comes up to the, the, I don't know, the host that where, where they're celebrating, you know, in the upper room and he's like, oh, I brought this from Cana. And so there's a fun little nod there, right? Oh, I brought this from Cana, you know, and he says it's the freshly pressed [00:44:00] grape nectar. Oh my goodness. you're saying, you're saying I've brought grape juice for, for this occasion, which is ridiculous. You're not, no one is drinking grape juice in the spring.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Was his name, Mr. Welch.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There is no grape juice. You cannot preserve grape juice.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: That's amazing.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: make, you cannot make grape juice.

You're surely not, you're not having freshly pressed grape nectar, uh, for this celebration. So it's, it is very obvious that this is, you know, trying to say they, they weren't drinking something alcoholic, um, at the last supper. Um, uh, yeah, so you, you can't have grape juice throughout the year. You can only have grape juice immediately when the grapes are harvested, but the fermentation process is going to begin.

So you, you genuinely like have the narrowest of windows to, to consume grape juice. Even the terms in Hebrew that [00:45:00] likely do refer to freshly trodden, grape must, even, even those terms. And like, there's this one term asis, which occurs five times. There's a passage in Isaiah, uh, Isaiah, where that Asis is very clearly intoxicating.

So e even. great must, even great must is recognized as intoxicating. So it just doesn't work. And you would expect, I think if the Bible and ancient, you know, Jewish authors and early Christian authors, right? If they were so concerned to get this right, you wouldn't use the same set of terms, right?

You would have,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: would have clearly delineated terms, right? If, if they shared your prejudice against alcohol, you would expect that they would have delineated terms. Now there are different kinds of terms, but they do not map onto, uh, this kind of thing. All the different kinds of terms can intoxicate, there's so many examples of this, but also it's, it's fun when you find one of these like positive passages [00:46:00] that, you know, you're, it's taken to be. Grape juice because it's positive. So a good example would be like, um, you know, I Isaiah, uh, or um, Psalm one 14, you know, that, that, that God has provided all of these things including wine, wine that gladdens the heart. Now, that glading the heart, that's a euphemism for intoxication, right? Um, so that's a, that's a great example of like a positive, you know, passage where there is something inebriating about that wine.

But of course, that's not gonna be conceded by anybody who holds the two wine theory, right? Another great example is the wedding at Cana, right? Where it's like, okay, Jesus made wine, but. But again, the, the, the person who holds the two wine theory could say, well, that was grape juice. Well, and this is where knowing Greek is so helpful because the master of the banquet says, you know, once everyone is drunk, that's what the, the, the Greek term is meco.

Once everyone is drunk, you bring out the lesser wine. But you've kept the good stuff for now. Right. And in English, it's [00:47:00] euphemistically rendered. Like once everyone has had their fill, which if you actually pause to think about what that would mean, does imply you know, that you're at least a little tipsy.

Right. Everyone's had their fill. It's a euphemism, but it does imply some type of inebriation. Right. Um, well, the text in Greek is explicit. Once everyone is drunk, you bring out the lesser, but you've kept the good stuff until now. And, and, yeah. I mean, about it, right? Jesus has provided an abundance of wine after they've run out of wine.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I mean, what a party. What a party

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: after they've run out, you know, it's not, it's not like there was no wine. It's they've run out.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: of all that they thought would be needed

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: for the entire thing.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Exactly.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I'll be honest, John, I think if I lived in those days, and again, you're pointing out something that we tend to forget. They didn't understand what was happening with wine. They didn't understand how it turned into what it is. We have the [00:48:00] science today to explain that, control it in ways that would've made no sense to them.

I suspect just wine alone, having a great glass of wine, I would've been like, God has to be real. Like, we don't know how this turned into this, but like God's, there's gotta be a God because this is magical.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: exactly. It

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I still feel that today with a good glass of wine and I know how it's made.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: this, this is, this is one of the things that I, I love that you said that because this is one of the things that I, I hope that we can cultivate, which is the ancient enchantment with wine. You know, we, we don't have the same palette as them.

We aren't using the same products as them. We aren't making wine with the same processes. the biggest difference as, as has been described by, by, by some, some really great writers on the history of wine, is our perception. We don't think of wine the same way wine is. You know, we got two buck, Chuck. We got grocery stores full of wine. But ancient people looked at wine and thought magic. They thought

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: [00:49:00] they thought divine and. we have lost that. So I love that you said that. I know how it's made and I still think that, and, and I wanna say amen. Exactly. That's exactly right. That that's what we need to be cultivating. So I, I appreciate that.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Love it. Well, your, your book's helping us to get there. Okay. One of the things you, you talk about that's really, I think, a helpful thing, and I don't, I don't think we have a ton of conservative listeners on this podcast. Shout out if you're, if you're listening and you are, we're glad you're here. You're welcome here.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Mad

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah. If you, if you have made it this far on this podcast, it says something great about you in all seriousness. But here's what I would say. I grew up with a very, I would say black and white understanding of alcohol. Alcohol was bad. It led to drunkenness, end of story. Right. Uh, there was, you know, this clear idea of like, the reason you don't drink is because it leads to being drunk and drunk is bad.

Bible says it's bad,

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: never more complicated [00:50:00] than that. Since then, I've obviously come around on that. You have this quote that I thought gets to this issue. You see, the critique of drunkenness in the Bible is not straightforwardly a matter of excess per se, but rather it is a matter of some failure or tragedy that could ensue from it.

Not only actively, but also passively. Now, this is a huge point that you get into in a variety of chapters, in a variety of ways, but I wanna just have you at least boil down the Reader's Digest version of this argument that we think, you know, it's just, you know, like somehow there's an imaginary line of the, the being drunk line, right?

And if you cross that line, you've committed sin. And the the funny part, and again, if you, if you have a logical conversation with someone, it breaks down quickly. 'cause you're like, well, how do you know where, when the line is? And the line can't be based on what you drink because everybody processes alcohol different.

So it can't be like, well it's two glasses. Can't be that. Has to be, you know, well, is it when you feel it [00:51:00] or when you know, are we talking blood alcohol content? Like where, you know, what else is that what you argue in the book? And what I, I think is just a great Christian practice is that the bigger issue is what do you do if you have that amount of wine?

Right? So, which goes back to my argument about fruit of the spirit. Are you displaying things that are in contrast to that? You know, 'cause if so, now we've got a problem. But the problem isn't that you drink the problem is what you're actually doing. You're hinting at that going, look, the issue is not just this line, it's what does it cause you to do?

Why don't you speak more on that? Because I think people don't think this part through.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah. So I, I, I think that the, the, the dynamic in a lot of biblical texts is. It's not the drunkenness per se. It's, it's what you do. And, and also a lot of the warnings are about what can happen to you when you're drunk. Right? There's so many examples of, you know, violent [00:52:00] exploitation or sexual exploitation.

Or you could even say just like not being prepared for judgment, right? For divine judgment. Right. Being, being, being drunk in this kind of eschatological sense, instead of being sober minded in this, again, eschatological sense. And I think that, that so often, yeah, we just reduce it down to the thing itself.

And as you very well said, it is such a moving target to, to, to define like, well, well, when's tips this and when's drunkenness? And like, are they conflated? Or, you know, all of those things are, are, are tricky and hard to navigate and super unclear and everybody has a different. Definition and understanding, but I think we have to take seriously, like what's the context in which we're drinking? Like is it a safe environment and like, what am I likely to do in a setting in which I am, you know, having, you know, two glasses of wine or three glasses of wine, you know? And if, if it [00:53:00] is the case that like. There is like a, a, a, um, a a certain threshold for yourself where you know, that like, oh, you know, I, I, I tend to, I tend to start talking really silly when I've had, you know, three beers or something like that.

Okay. So like, let's, let's not get to the three beer line then,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: I mean? Like, every, everyone's gonna kind of have that kind of personal sense of like, know, oh, because, you know, people talk like this all the time. They'll say something like, like, oh, I know, uh, I'll have a headache if I have an extra glass.

Or, you know, uh, I know I'll blank if I, whatever. And I think that same kind of, you know, perception or like sense of like one's own, um, you know, agency with respect to like what alcohol, uh, can, the, the effects that it can have on you. I think you just need to be as wise as you would when, when you're thinking about things like headaches or like, you know, uh, a hangover or, or whatever. Um, and so I think that, that, that's. [00:54:00] That's, that's part of the big picture. And so, so drunkenness gets lumped in with a lot of other vices, and I think largely because of what the, the drunkard is likely to do or not do. So it's also, it's not just sins of commission, if you like, but also sins of omission.

So that goes back to the kind of exploitation of resources argument where, well, if you are, you know, indulging X, Y, and Z, um, does that mean then that you are not committing, you know, that you're not, uh, uh, exercising your responsibility to the other, that you're not caring for the poor, that you're not using your resources for others, that you're not, um, you know, able to conduct your, uh, you know, j your, your, your job, your, you know, your, your responsibilities in every arena that you can, that you can think of. Um. those are, if that's impaired by your consumption of alcohol, that's a problem. Right. So I think so. I think drunkenness has so many different sort of, [00:55:00] like, issues with it, and it's, it's not really just boiling down to, well, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've, you've just drunk, you know, a little bit too much.

It's, it's, it's okay. of those factors that can happen that you do or don't do or that can happen to you, uh, need to be, I think, uh, factored into what we think about the problem with drunkenness in the Bible and the warnings against it in the Bible.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Well, and I would just add to that, you know, a lot of the things that we do with Communion Wine Co are either events with wine, trips with wine, and so I get to be kind of a, a guide, you know, guiding experiences with a lot of people who have a lot of different alcohol tolerances who respond differently.

And so I've done this enough now. Where I've seen how different people react, different ways, different things. And you know, like even some of our trips, like how many wine tastings is the right amount in a day, right? Like I started off with three and I realized that's too much for people, so I [00:56:00] dialed it down, you know?

And then they're like, we want more. It's like, well, I've learned that you know all this, but I've also seen just practically some people become nicer versions of themselves when they drink and they're more thoughtful, they're more caring, they're more attuned to their neighbor. Other people become meaner versions of themself.

Absolutely. And so I've always said that to people of like, Hey, just so you know, from anecdotal evidence of my own experience doing this, not everybody has the same formula of what happens to them when they drink. So I love that you said like have your own assessment of like, if I do this, what does it lead to?

And that's a deeper level of thinking. It's a deeper level of maturity than just, I crossed a line I shouldn't have, or, you know, I'm gonna stay away from the line. It's like, no, what is it actually producing in me? Is it good? Is it healthy? Am I in control of it? Or is it, you know, spinning out? And yeah, where are you doing it?

Are you in an environment where you're safe and people you know, and, and it's, it's a celebration or that was scary [00:57:00] that you'd, you know, like there's so many other things and that's why I just love that you address this, because I think that's what's missing in so much of our conversations today about drunkenness in general.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah. Totally. Totally.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Okay. I wanna have you weigh in on something that Gila Craiger said on the podcast,

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Excellent.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I know you're very familiar with her. We had her on episode 42. So listeners, if you want to go back and listen to the context of what I'm about to, to share, she shared, uh, this is her phrase, and I think it's such a good phrase.

Uh, she talked about the value of holy tips.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Which is the idea that, you know, can, we've been hinting at that you intentionally drink a little bit too much because good things happen and, and you experience others and God in this way. What are your thoughts on holy tips from, uh, from the scholarly point of view?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: so I love gla. She's, she's a friend of mine. We overlapped at St. Andrew's for a bit. When I first met her, [00:58:00] it was so fun because, uh, I was like, oh, I'm working on a book on wine. She's like, I'm working on a book on wine. 'cause again, my contract goes back to 2013.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: so when I met her, when I met her, it was before her spirituality of wine came out, which I, I think it was 2015 with, uh, airman's. Um, so, but it was so fun to like, be like, wow, we're both in, you know, small town in Scotland writing for, uh, different publishers in Grand Rapids about wine in the Bible. This is awesome. Um, but no, I, I, I have learned a lot from Gela. I've been to different wine tastings with gla, um, uh, I've read all of her books and I, I, I love the concept of holy tips.

This, um. Yeah, like, so how do I think about it from a scholar scholarly perspective? Um, know, I don't think a category like Tips Nest works with the Bible. That's not a critique of gla to be clear, I just don't think the Bible is super helpful for delineating, [00:59:00] um, something like drunkenness versus like tips. there are these references like, you know, these euphemisms as I mentioned, like the being gladed in the heart and these kinds of things. And what I want to say is that those must refer to the effects of alcohol, but I do think it's shy of drunkenness. And

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: I, I I, I want to draw a line there, and I think that's closer to the kind of thing that GLA would be talking about.

I just, obviously a term like tips nest would of course be heuristic. Um, it's, yeah. So it's hard to know like. Yeah. Where does, where does, uh, where, where, where would we find evidence for it outside of like those euphemistic uh, passages? There is, there is an interesting passage that I sometimes think about in addition to the wedding at Cana, where there's this reference to drunkenness.

Um, in Genesis, the end of Genesis, you have this scene of [01:00:00] drunkenness that is sometimes not even rendered such in like English translations. It's Joseph and his brothers. Um, it's when they are reunited, but Joseph hasn't revealed his identity just yet. So this is the setting in which Joseph puts his little SR cup, you know, in Benjamin's like sack or whatever. Um, and it's just interesting that the text describes that they're getting drunk, but nothing happens. Nothing bad happens. No one gets killed. No, you know, you could say that there's trickery there because Joseph hides the cup in there and it's, it's part of his little scheme to like get them to come back or whatever. But. It's interesting because Genesis has some like gnarly drunkenness

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah, it does

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: you

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: got quite a few of.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: yeah, like, like obviously the first one with Noah, uh, you know, he's, he's butt ass naked, presumably. I mean, you could interpret it, you could interpret it a different way. And, and, and I respect the scholars who wanna say that this is either maternal or paternal incest.

Um, [01:01:00] I think if I had to choose between the two, the maternal incest views a little bit better, because you immediately have the, the, the cursing of, uh, of Canaan. And it doesn't make sense why the offspring of ham would be, you know, um, uh, cursed here. So, so I don't go that route. That's not my view. But I would, I would pick that view over the paternal incest view personally. Um, I go for something like the traditional view. 'cause I think there's, there's too many illusions back to the story of Adam and Eve, uh, and the just new creation connections that, that I find, uh, just a little bit more striking to me personally. But regardless. It, you know, you have this, this man who's just invented wine, right?

He's just, he just gotten drunk. It's this great kind of like Frankenstein's monster thing. Like Noah doesn't realize what he's created.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah, I love it.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: It's excellent. Um, but then you got lot and his daughters, and that's freaking gnarly. And then you have, um, you know, uh, what is it, Jacob and, and, uh, and lab.

So La Laben, the whole thing with, you [01:02:00] know, Rachel and Leia and, and, and that's, that's like, it's implied. I don't think, I don't know if wine is mentioned, but it's, there's, it's definitely a mish test. So the, the, the Hebrew means that there's a drinking party, that there's something

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I had actually never had that thought till I read that in your book that wine was involved. I always thought like, how dark did it have to be? You know? And I'm like, they don't have lights and all that.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: had never, even as I, I don't know why I had never even had the thought that there was alcohol involved.

And when I read that in your book, I was like, oh, that would make a lot more sense.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: exactly. Yeah. So I think, I think that explains a little bit of the trickery there, but it's just interesting that you've got weird drunkenness scenes in Genesis and then really happens with Joseph and his brothers. Now, I'm, I'm not as clear, but that is just an interesting example that highlights the importance of are like, really important for [01:03:00] thinking about, you know, much have you drunk, exact, you know, et cetera. So yeah, I, I, I love, I love the concept of holy tips in us. Um, I don't know if I use that term. I might, in the conclusion I can't remember if I do in, in, in my book, I might, I might cite her, but I, I do love it.

I, I, I'm, I'm a fan of Gela and I, I do love that concept.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Okay, here's another, here's another hot take I want to get your, your response to. I was talking with a winemaker who, Christian winemaker. And we were, we were talking about John too, and obviously, you know, he's talking about how much he loves that and he makes wine for a living and, you know, all this. He, he offered a suggestion that I had never heard of before and I ha I haven't been able to turn this off since I heard it.

And I always thought this was fascinating. His take on why Jesus, you know, has that conversation with his mother and she's like, Hey, do whatever they, you know, do whatever he tells you and just kind of like assumes all this, his take was [01:04:00] that Jesus had done it. That he had made wine out of water, which is why she even comes to him and says, Hey, they ran out of wine because she knew, because it, it is kind of missing in the text of like, why did she jump to that conclusion and then why does she just assume he's able to do this?

That seems like a pretty big jump, which I agree. Once you see it, you're like, that is kind of a lot to assume. Unless he had already done it and then the, the phrase he said to me is, you know, that he thinks his mom said to him, Hey, Jesus, do the thing. Like, you know, the thing you do, like do the thing.

'cause like he had shown that he had done this in the past. Floating that out there. John, what's your response to that?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: So, I mean, first response is, I love it. Um, uh, second response is, it's, it's, it's always so curious why Mary is so confident and it raises all kinds of interesting questions. This is one of the gaps in the text. What did [01:05:00] she know or what did she expect to happen? Um, and why? Right? The why could be 'cause he's done it before or the why could be 'cause she knows that, you know, miracles are gonna ramp up in the run up to his hour.

And that's what he says to her, right? What is it between you and me? The, the Greek is, is interesting. Um, what is it? Between you and me, like my hour has not yet come and. There is this idea that Jesus is public about doing this, that puts him on an immediate trajectory, barely mean it's the very first miracle. And so it is interesting to consider, like had Jesus done a miracle before this or not? Um, I think a, a traditional view is to say, sign is just John's way of talking about miracles. And, and this is the first time Jesus did anything miraculous. [01:06:00] But it is interesting that it seems like John has chosen particular miracles or instances to highlight who Jesus is so that you might believe and have life in his name as he says later, right? Um, that it's not that these. Uh, these are the only miracles. And, and then that might mean that Cana wasn't necessarily the first one, but these are the ones that you can, you can know that you have life because of them. And so that, that's, that changes the game a little bit when you, when you think about it. I, I tend to be on the side of it's his first miracle. Um, and, and yeah. And so the question of like, well, what did Mary know, like, you know, did Jesus do things as a kid? So that, that's where you get like, interesting, like, you know, infancy gospels, these non-canonical

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah. Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Jesus was doing things and there, there's, um, there's a couple of Jesus films going back to the Jesus film stuff. a couple of Jesus films where Jesus does Cana like miracles as a kid. Like I, there's [01:07:00] one, there's one Mexican film, uh, where, where you know, young Jesus.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Something right here, right now. it's a great, it's, it's a delightful little gap in the text, and all we can do is fill it in. Because even if you say no, he never did miracles before, it's not like you're not filling in the text. You're just filling it in a different way, know?

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Right,

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: at the end of the day, we're all just filling in the gaps.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: because you, you know, why did Mary, or what, what did Mary know? Why, you know, why did she assume he could do it? What did Jesus know? 'cause that's the other thing, like, did Jesus know he could do that at that point? If he had never done it? And again, you know, John is teasing something out, which Jesus' time doesn't come till chapter 12.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: [01:08:00] yeah,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: it's not really, uh, he's not saying, Hey, now that he's doing signs, his time has come. 'cause that's not gonna come for a while in the narrative. So it does kind of let, to me, opens the door a little bit of like, these are things Jesus was already doing. Not necessarily like Jesus's official, like this is gonna begin it, you know, but it's like, okay, I'll do this.

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna roll this out for, for 10 more chapters, guys, you know, I got, I got 10 more chapters to go here. But I don't know, I've always thought that was such an interesting, obviously not in the text, but this is where I think it's fun to use our imaginations to dive into these stories and go like, what was going on there?

Did,

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: is this a party trick that Jesus did and they all loved him for it? I, I would pull it out if I could.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: I, I definitely love it. I definitely love it as a suggestion. I'm not sure if I, if I think, if I think that's the best way of understanding it, but I, I have to, you know, have to say, I do like it.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Okay, we'll, we'll, we'll take it at that and we'll, we'll move on. Alright. I want to get to some [01:09:00] questions. I like to ask each of our guests, and I'm especially excited to hear your answers to these first one being, and you're gonna have to probably narrow this down, but I like to ask people, if you were to think about the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life, that you just think like that was as good as I could ever imagine drinking a glass of wine.

Is there one memory that immediately pops up and what could you tell us about it? Was it a specific bottle, specific grape, A place people you were with? What? What story comes to your mind?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: This is very hard and it's one of those things where I might, I might have a different answer if, if you asked me a little bit later, but I think what comes to mind, and it's not like this is like the best wine of all time or anything like that, but it's. It's a bottle that my family really loves. Um, my, my, [01:10:00] my mom and, and my sister, my brother, and my, my sister-in-law.

And I think, I think my brother-in-law has had it, but, but, but really it, you know, something that I discovered with my mom and we've kind of become big fans of, it's this, um, producer called Maia. it's from Lodi. it's, it's a, it's a wine, it's a petit raw and it's called dubious. And, and specifically we love the 2015 Vintage.

I have one bottle left of it and I've been sitting on it and I have no idea when I'll open it. Um, but you know, we try the new vintages, um, every year and, and we always appreciate them, but we always talk fondly of the 25th. So I feel like the bottle that I have talked to, like most nostalgically about. Like over and over again is the 2015 dubious? So I have, like I said, I have, I have one bottle of those. I [01:11:00] don't know if, uh, if, if, if they're being sold anywhere, you know, at, at like major wine retailers, um, it might go back a couple vintages. This particular, uh, you know, petite rah dubious. Um, but yeah, I, I don't see anything from 2015 anymore.

So I, I I, I've kind of been holding onto that one for, for, uh, for a while. So it's, it's definitely not the, I mean, it's like a $40 bottle of wine, you know, so it's like, it's like a respectable price, but it's not like, it's not going to like, you know, uh, break anyone's bank. Like anybody could, could give it a go if they wanted to.

But like, I. Uh, I just, yeah, I've, I've thought very fondly about that wine. So I think I have to say that one. I, I'm sure objectively I've had better wines, you know, 'cause I do love wine tourism and tr traveling and trying different things, but I, I, I, I'm gonna go with that one.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Love it. All right. Which member [01:12:00] of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you and who would you not trust and why?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: That's such a good, uh, I mean, uh, Marcian, why would anybody trust Marcian with anything? Uh, you know, I feel like I have to say Marcian or, or like, I mean, you know, there's other like. other people who were influenced by kind of strong uh, perspectives. You know, Tian, who, uh, you know, put together the, the D Tesson. I suspect, yeah. He was not a fan of wine, uh, for a couple different reasons. And so I, I could say him as well. Um, who, who would I trust? I mean, I feel like I should name some Cistercian [01:13:00] Monk off the top of my head, but I don't have one ready to go. Um, who would I trust? Uh hmm. I goodness. Well, Calvin was French, so let's go with that.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah, he probably had a, some good experience with wine.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Let's just go with that. Uh, yeah. He's clo you know, Geneva's close enough. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go with, let's go with Calvin. I have no idea what he, I, I don't actually know about his wine consumption.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: He has some beautiful wine quotes, actually.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Okay.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Um, I'm trying, I I'm gonna butcher this off the top of my head, but something of some comparison of how our hearts are gladed by wine and how. We can equally be glad and by the spirit of God or something. Um, and just this comparison using wine in a very favorable sense.

So I think John Calvin's probably a safe, safe bet.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: I mean, if you had asked about beer and I'm, I'm fundamentally a beer guy, I should say, [01:14:00] uh, Martin Luther, of course. You, you just, you just, you just know you're gonna have a good time if you grab a beer with that guy.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Ironically, he comes up on a lot of people's lists of who they wouldn't ask. 'cause they are like, oh, he would be, you know, and I'm like, he probably would be pretty solid even on wine. Just, yeah. Like he probably would help you out. But he, he has shown up on a lot of people's do not ask list for whatever reason, so.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Okay. Okay.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Okay. What's something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Okay. Wrong about makes that question hard because saying I'm wrong about it would mean that I'm certain that I'm now right about it. Do you know what I mean?

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah. Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: that's hard. Um, okay.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Okay. You're certain that your previous beliefs were crazy. How about that?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Well, I mean, how about my views on alcohol? Right? I, I thought alcohol was just straightforwardly evil and, [01:15:00] uh, um. Yeah, I mean, that's definitely one of them. I mean, I could, I could lump a whole, uh, a whole host of things alongside that. I mean, king James only is him and I already mentioned, you know, a handful of things.

But, uh, but yeah, certainly my views on alcohol. I, I'm, I'm sure I'm, I'm wrong about, about, about that because, uh, there's just no way that ancient people had the same kind of prejudices that post-prohibition conservative Christian America had.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Now you talk about drinking with your mom.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: she's not Baptist anymore or has made the switch with you, or how's that been with, with, I guess whoever, you know, brought you up in that culture that, do they look at you of like, you've, you're a wayward son or they've kind of done the journey with you?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah. Done the journey with me. Um, so. So it's interesting because, yeah, my mom used to drink, [01:16:00] my, my, my parents were nominal Catholics and they, they really became serious about

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: um, when I was about three or four. And they became Protestant and they got, they got connected to a Calvary Chapel.

And Calvary Chapel isn't Fundamentalist Baptist, but I was put into a fundamentalist Baptist school, and that was, you know, very formative chapels, et cetera. And what I, what I've realized in hindsight is that, although at the time growing up, I thought the Calvary Chapel was the, um, you know, liberative, you know, tradition over against Mike. Super conservative, rigid, like, uh, Baptist school. I've realized how complimentary actually it all was. That, that the only difference was you wear ties with the Baptists and you wear Hawaiian shirts at Calvary Chapel, but like, but like all their views were like the exact same, you know, o other than tongues.

And that was the thing that I love to like debate because I was like. [01:17:00] Oh yeah, my church, we say we believe in tongues. It'll never, you'll never ever see any of that happen at, at our Calvary Chapel, but we say we believe in it, and that's makes us edgy and cool because at my Baptist school, they're all cessationists.

You know what I mean? Like, like, I just remember, I just remember being like, like that was like the, the, the edgy thing. Um, but, but it was very fundamentalist still, right? Like even though at, at, at, at the Calvary Chapel, they weren't all King James onlys, but they did think the Texas receptors was the best.

And all the Bibles were new King James. And, um, and they would say like, if you wanna be a serious, you know, study, uh, study of the Bible, if you wanna really dive in, you, you gotta get yourself a King James Bible. Like, they would talk like that, you know, regularly. And I just, I just realized how, actually this is all very complimentary and, um, but my, my parents did come along, uh, for the journey.

I guess you could say. My, my. [01:18:00] My parents when they became Christian, I don't, I don't think they really had a clear sense of like, well, what does it mean to be like, it's whatever we're, we're, you know, kind of being told by, by the people at Calvary or people at the school. And so, oh yeah, that means no alcohol then that means no alcohol.

And my mom was kind of happy to get this, and that's, that's for, you know, reasons connected to his upbringing and his alcoholic father, et cetera. And he never acquired a taste for it. Um, but yeah, as, as I started to become a fan of craft beer, you know, years later, um, my, my parents opened up to the idea of like me drinking and then eventually my mom started to like circle back to the idea of like, maybe I can start having wine again.

And, know, there was a period of time where. I would've [01:19:00] said something like, you know, thinking about Romans 14 and 15 and the kind of like, you know, the argument that's, that's commonly reduced to like, weaker brother. Stronger brother. And it's like, you know, the way that Paul talks about conscience I think is really interesting.

And it's, it's kind of like, you know, if, if you can consume wine in good conscience, then it's not sin. But then we have like have to think like, wait, wait. If, if you can't, if you can't consume the wine in good conscience, you're sinning against your conscience. And, and like that's sin. And it's like, whoa, that's really interesting. So there was a time where I would say like, yeah, I can drink, but my mom can't. You know, because she can't in good conscience, so it would be a sin for her to drink. And so she shouldn't,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Interesting.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: she was able to kind of get past that and so now she can drink in good conscience. And so, um, it has been an interesting, uh, uh, [01:20:00] journey. Uh, and then part of that journey is my t totaling dad and I make beer together.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: That's amazing.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah. Yeah. We make beer. In fact, right now we've got a couple of batches, um, that are fermented that, that have fermented that we're, we're, we're racking. We're doing a couple different things. They're, they're, um. They're stouts, uh, coffee chocolate stouts, and we have, uh, have them aging on some oak chips that I've soaked in Ardbeg, uh, single malt, uh, scotch and, um, to, you know, to give it a little bit of that kind of peed oaky

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: And then, um, and then, and then we will, uh, we'll rack it and then, uh, probably bottle it in a couple of weeks. But, uh, anyways, yeah, my and my dad's super into it. You know

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: He doesn't drink anything that you make.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: any of it. No, no, no. He's Walter White. I'm Jesse Pinkman. So, uh, we, we have, we have, we have fun. We have fun. Making it together.

Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Oh, that's amazing. Your dad is Walter White. That's, [01:21:00] that's so fantastic. Oh, okay. I love that. What, uh, what do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in America right now?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Oh gosh.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Pick one.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: national, it's Christian nationalism. Uh, I think that's pretty, pretty obvious. Um, we, we have so conflated American identities and the of empire with the kingdom of God, with Christianity, and we can't differentiate the prerogatives of America from the prerogatives of the church.

And that's just, um, yeah. It, it's, it's, uh, it's a complete tragedy. Um, yeah, there's, there's, there's, uh, there's nothing Christian about it. It's, it's, it's a false gospel and, um, yeah, it just needs to be rejected. Full [01:22:00] stop.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Amen. I love it. What's something that's blowing your mind right now? What are you learning?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Oh dear. Something that's blowing my mind. Um, uh, I'm in such a like, prep for the spring semester mode. I've been like rewatching bits of Jesus films for this class and think, you know, putting my lectures together. Um, I'm not, I'm not presently reading something. What am I reading? Um, oh, actually what I am reading is a book on Ted Lasso.

Uh, it's a, it's a,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: on like theology and religion in Ted Lasso. And I, I, I just, um, rewatched season three in preparation for reading this, um, this, uh, this, this book, um, to, to to, uh, yeah, to, to, it is not out yet. Uh, this book is not out yet. So I'm, I am, uh, [01:23:00] uh, writing an endorsement for it. And, um, yeah, I think the. The way that this, this show highlights this kind of hopeful positivity, what balanced with like real world and like interest in telling the story of like, how did this empire come about is, is like we are particularly interested in that story because it so mirrors our situation and it's kind of blowing my mind that like can watch and or and be like, oh, it's a great little Star Wars show [01:24:00] and not be like. Oh shit. And or three is happening all around us.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: I saw a, uh, a little debate on threads today. Someone's like, uh, you know, how do you not get this? But, you know, ice agents are Han Solo and, uh, you know, Alex Pretty was Guido or whatever, and.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: What?

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: S dude, people just dunked on this guy of like, no, let me explain to you. Ice agents are storm troopers. Trump is Darth Vader, you know, uh, Putin is palpatine.

I mean like, like giving him like a dissertation back. And it, but I was like, you, you watch Star Wars and concluded that Han Solo is an ice agent. Like, that's, that was your takeaway from that.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: like, do you not understand what the rebellion is all about?

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Well, and I don't know if you saw a, a few weeks ago, but

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: terrorists, right.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah. Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: and Han

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Right.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: terrorists. [01:25:00] That's,

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: But like, Disney came out.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: air quotes, air quotes here.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Disney came out and said like, Hey, what's a, what's a Disney quote that summarizes how you feel right now? And people were like, quoting and, or, and like all these things. And like they had to remove the post 'cause it became

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Wow.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: from all of this is what I realized.

All of our stories are about fighting this. And then in real life, everybody ca cowers from it.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Totally. Totally. Yeah. I, it's, it's so true. Um. it's, you know, we, need, we need that, uh, rebellious spirit, you know, we need that dumble doors, army spirit, you know? Um, we can't, we can't just sit by, I mean, that's why Minnesotans, I mean, they're, they're such nice people, right?

Minnesota nice is a thing. But like was telling a friend, um, I don't know if I can say this on your pod, but you know how like people, what is it? Is it New Hampshire? Like, don't tread on me.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Mm-hmm.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: in Minnesota, it's like, don't fuck with my [01:26:00] neighbors. You know, like that, that's the vibe is, is like, people are so to ice because there's such a, like, we have to band together and love

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: It, it's, it's crazy. But like that vibe is so strong here in, in Minnesota and to, to say that this is domestic terrorism is like, like, like to people with whistles who are just like concerned about. People they love in their neighborhood. Like I, I, yeah. Again, how, this is the same thing. How can you watch and or, and think Han Solo is an ice agent?

You know, it's like, how can you think that? Somebody saying, shame, shame after, Renee Goode has just been shot and the ice agent says, fucking bitch. Right? How can you say, oh, agitators are sitting around, know, provoking the situation. Like, [01:27:00] I, I just get incredibly angry and I'm sorry if you have to censored half of

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: No, we, we,

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: just

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: we let a heir John, we let a heir. I, I saw someone else, you know, the famous, uh, Nazi Germany quote where it's like, first they came for these guys, then they came for, then they came for, and then there's no one left. You know, that whole idea. Uh, I saw someone write another modern version of that.

They're like, first they came for my neighbor. And I said, fuck off, leave my neighbor alone. And I was like, that's amazing. Like, just stops right there. Like, no, like we're not, we're not letting you do this. And

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: just, just so you know, and all of us listening that don't live in Minnesota, we're all cheering you guys on right now.

And as ugly as the world is watching, the beauty of people stand up to empire, to stand up to fascism. I mean, it is like. It's the whole Mr. Rogers look for the helpers idea. Like it, that is so inspiring to see the way people rally together around their [01:28:00] community, around the vulnerable. It's like, that's the gospel.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: beautiful

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: It is. It is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: getting all emotional at the end of this episode. Alright. What's

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Alright.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: you're trying to solve?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: What's the problem I'm trying to solve? I mean, there's little, you know, intellectual problems that I'm always trying to solve. Little, uh, little projects that I'm working on and thinking through all very minor in the grand scheme of things, uh, especially compared to what's happening right outside my windows. Um, yeah, so they're not really problems when you, uh, contextualize it.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah, we, we got a, we got a few big ones right now. What's something you're excited about?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: I am excited about, um, our new book that's coming out, Janine Brown and I, uh, the [01:29:00] greatest story Ever Retold about Jesus films, but it's specifically, it's not just like, oh, let's talk about all these films. It's more like, you know, every time you read, you visualize, you know, you imagine. You, you, you cast the characters, you block the scene.

You, you, you direct the line readings. You're like a director of a Jesus film, but it's one happening inside your head. So let's use Jesus films as an external reference point to talk about this internal process that happens every time you read. And then think about some of the tropes and the dynamics of filmmaking to talk about this hermeneutical, uh, concept, let's say this hermeneutical dynamic of visualization that isn't, you know, talked about enough when we read the gospel.

So I'm really excited about that book. Um, and uh, yeah, it'll be out. It'll be out in March.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Do you, do you settle the old debate of, you know, do you watch the movie, read the book and say, Hey, the book was better.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: You know, I do think in the case of the Bible, the book was better. Always, always the[01:30:00]

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Can you ever not say that?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but, you know, and I am somebody who generally says the book was better, you know, Harry Potter, I mean, you name it, right? The book was better. Um, but what I, but this is the thing, right? The way that we're going about it is not so much like, oh, let's talk about, you know, adaptation of books to screen.

It's more like, wait, wait, we're all adapting this material to create a little reel in our minds. Um, let's just think about that dynamic. And what's nice about Jesus films is we literally have hundreds of examples of this, right? Whereas like Harry Potter right now, we've got one example, and now HBO said they're gonna make another.

And so we can like, compare two iterations of

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah. Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: films, we have so many examples. And in fact, every time you hear someone preach, or in your case right when you get up and preach, how often have you said something like, I imagine it happened like this.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: saying, let me direct this film for you for a second.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Yeah,

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Do you know

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: yeah.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: And now everyone can visualize what you're trying, [01:31:00] trying to get them to visualize. And I think that dynamic is really just really interesting. And because we have so many different films from different cultures, et cetera, you can see how it's been, been visualized and visioned, uh, made visual, uh, in so many different ways.

And some, and sometimes it provokes you to think like, oh, wow, I've made a lot of assumptions about

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Mm

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: in this scene or that scene. And like, maybe I should think more critically about, well, why do I imagine it this way? It's just, I find it just immensely helpful and fascinating.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: mm That's good. Alright, is there anything else, John, that we gotta talk about? We can't close the episode out if we don't get this in that we, we would be remiss. Anything you need to add to it before we wrap this up?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Oh, you know, I think you have asked the perfect questions. All the best questions, and I think we, we have covered all the best ground and, uh, no, I, I, I, I don't, I don't, I don't know that I have anything else that, uh, needs to be, needs to be addressed. I mean, [01:32:00] um, I could, you know, make a plug for our podcast, the two cities, uh, podcast, as well as, um, the craft beer reception that I host, uh, for a a r and SBL every year, just mentioning that, uh, everyone's invited, who, who is a member of a a r, the American Academy of Religion, or SBL Society of Biblical Literature. Uh, every annual meeting I host a craft beer event. It's an international bottle share. Bring your favorite beers, your, the rare beers, hard to find beers from wherever you live or any home brews that you like to make. And bring 'em to the, to the conference, and we'll share them on Monday night. So, and this year it's in Denver.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Nice. Okay. So if someone's resonating with all this, what's the easiest way for them to connect with your work online?

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Well, the, the podcast, so we have a website and our, our different, you know, social, um, media handles and, uh, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter or x and uh, and then my own [01:33:00] personal accounts, uh, at Johnny Pepper, I think on Facebook and Instagram. And then, uh, uh, at, uh, Dr. Ja Dunn on, uh, on X, yeah.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Excellent. I'll put all the links in the show notes, but I can imagine quite a few people are like, this guy's cool. I wanna, I wanna connect with him later. Have a, have a glass of something delicious.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: Yes, yes, yes.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Hey, John, I, I appreciate your book. I appreciate that you spent, what, 13 years on it and, and have, have dove to all the, all the depths of what the scriptures say about alcohol.

It is an incredible resource. Uh, I heartily recommend to anybody if you're even remotely like, curious, like what does the bible actually say about this? The book, the book gets into it and far more than it, it'll answer questions you didn't even think of to ask and that's, that's a testament to the amount of thought you've put into it.

But, uh, thanks for doing that. Thanks for being a voice in this space. There's not a, not a ton of people, [01:34:00] uh, bringing spirituality into this space. So when we find another partner, it's always, it's always like an instant, uh, friendship. So thanks for coming on today. I really appreciate your time.

john-anthony-dunne_1_01-29-2026_140250: today. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Cheers.

jeremy_1_01-29-2026_130250: Cheers and cheers to all of you listeners. Hopefully you got a lot out of this one, and we will see you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray.

The Mountains Shall Drip Sweet Wine (with John Anthony Dunne) | Ep. 66

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