Faith and the Public Square (with Collin Packer) | Ep. 67

February 25, 2026

This week on Cabernet & Pray, we sit down with Collin Packer for a conversation that feels as honest as it is necessary. Collin shares his journey from fundamentalist pastor to working in the Texas State House, from not voting for 12 years out of theological conviction to wrestling with what it means to let “justice take a side.” We talk about racial reconciliation, political discipleship, the cost of speaking prophetically in church spaces, and why some of the best conversations about faith might happen around a table with bread and wine instead of behind a pulpit. This episode offers a hopeful, deeply practical vision of what a Jesus-shaped presence could look like in our cultural chaos.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/MouIpaYlklw

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Episode Transcript

Faith and the Public Square (with Collin Packer) | Ep. 67
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[00:00:00] Here's what Dr. David Gushy, author and professor of Christian ethics at Mercer University had to say about my upcoming book, the Edge of the Inside Releasing March 31st quote, A striking memoir of a former evangelical machine pastor pushed out of the center of that world and to the very edges, not just of church, but of Christian faith, spirituality, and theology, an elegant book, the edge of the inside could become a post evangelical classic.

Highly recommended. If you'd like to read a copy before it comes out, we'd love to have you join our book launch team. You can find out more at edge of the inside.com or at the link in the show notes.

Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. And today we are doing some stirring of that faith. We've got my friend Colin Packer, and just an incredible conversation that gets into so many things about the church. And conversations that the church needs [00:01:00] to have.

Colin is the director of Strategic Development for LTR Ministries, which is an organization that engages white Christians in the ministry of reconciliation. And Justice. He was a lead pastor for 13 years in churches in Denver and Dallas. He was a communications director for a Texas State representative in 2023, and now he works at the intersection of faith and the public square as an advocate for racial and social justice.

He has been married for 21 years to Holly and they have three kids together and just a gem of a friend. I've known him for a number of years now, and I was so excited to be able to get his perspective on this episode. This is episode 67, faith and the Public Square.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would've no idea. Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say [00:02:00] if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.

Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at Universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.

How if I get a little loopy. It's your follow up. You told me to drink it. I just show up. I'll also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.

We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the [00:03:00] beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way You're doing it in the. Beautiful positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.

It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that. Very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.

You had me with herbaceous notes. I want you to know I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.

It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy, by the way, drinking this peanut regio at three o'clock in the afternoon is [00:04:00] making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. It makes sense now.

Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Well, when I asked today's guest what he wanted to get out of the episode, he wrote this, and I quote, just want an opportunity to give people an alternative vision of how Christians can navigate the shit storm in our country and provide a winsome public witness of Jesus's vision for the common good. to the podcast, Colin.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Man, the shit storm is going, isn't it?

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: I felt like it was an appropriate word to introduce the episode.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Sorry mom. Sorry mom. But we'll make this work. I

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: We, uh, we talk about real things on this podcast, Colin, so We're allowed to use language. So

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: [00:05:00] We're not in our old worlds, are we?

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: need to tell your mom, Hey, maybe skip this one. Well, before we get into our conversation today, let's talk about what we're drinking. So there we go. There's our transition. I am, I'm switching it up today, Colin. I normally have, wanna say bougie wine, but I normally have a, a pretty nice bottle of something that, you know, I'm a member of something or I have some connection. Not today. Today we?

are going Trader Joe's. This is, uh, this is a diff this is not two buck Chuck. I wanna

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Oh, I was okay. All right.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: the story. My wife was, was at Trader Joe's the other day, and this is Trader Joe's reserve line. And I don't know if she watched a TikTok video or talked to an employee, but somehow got it in her head that the reserve line was actually like. The steal of a deal. And so she brought it home to me and was like, Hey, I want you to try this. So I was like, okay. [00:06:00] Not, not my normal bottle that I'm drinking, admittedly. Uh, but we'll try it. This is a, a Bordeaux blend, which. If you've listened to episodes before, I've, I've gone off on how much I love Bordeaux blends. And so here's what I'm gonna say. It's actually not bad. It's Not a bad daily drinker. Just go to what I noticed about it compared to what I think of a Bordeaux blend. It doesn't have the minerality to it that I really enjoy some of those tertiary notes and it doesn't have the finish. It's not like this big robust finish like, oh, that thing just sits in your mouth and wow, lingers doesn't have that.

It's kind of just is done once you're sipping it. But think there's a place for all things, Colin. So I'm rocking the Trader Joe's 2023 Madoc Grand Vin de Bordeaux Reserve, not two buck chuck friends, the reserve line. So, hey, if you're looking for a daily drinker, that's, I think this is like 10 bucks. I mean, it's not, not two bucks, 10 bucks,

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Not [00:07:00] two.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: not two.

bad.

So that's what I've got. What are you drinking today?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: So I have, uh, great Creek Vineyards. Uh, this is a Texas wine. Uh, some don't know that that exists, but, uh, I come from Texas. This is the Originalist. It's a 2021 and, uh, it's a red blend. So we got our Texas red blend that we're gonna enjoy. I am actually a, a member of this club. It's one of our favorite places to get away to in Fredericksburg, Texas.

And so, uh. But I think this is my first time with the originalist, so I'm, I'm looking forward to this.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: okay. So let's, we gotta see your reaction. What do you think?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: I like it. I like it. It, uh, it's fruit forward. That's what I'm, uh, what I'm tasting here. Um, raspberry cherries, something like that.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Okay.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: so I, I'm trying to move forward in this, uh, this wine, uh, journey. And so you are helping me. Your podcast, I mean, theology is great, right? But the wine is where it's at, so thanks for Is it a screw top or is it a quart?[00:08:00]

The $10.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Uh, it was a cork.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Okay.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: was a

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: All right. They are moving up. I like that.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: which is, it is truly surprising because I feel like more and more of the world's going to the screw top. So to have Trader Joe's holding out, and I don't know, it's been a while since I've had two buck trucks. So I don't know if that's a screw top. I would imagine. Um, but maybe, maybe they're making it elegant across the board with the corks.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Well, hey, hopefully if you're able to enjoy a glass with us, you've got something fun as well. I know many of you listen to episodes while you're working out or you have some activity you're doing, so that's great. We're happy that you're listening to us as well. Um, but if you are able to enjoy a glass, it, I think it makes the episode better.

Certainly makes it better to record it. So that's what we're doing now. Colin is a regular listener to the pod, So he, he knows this next question's probably coming. I didn't give them all the questions, but Colin, for, for people who want to know, uh, you and I, have been friends for a [00:09:00] while, so this isn't the first time you and I have talked and we'll get into a little bit of that.

But, uh, just for people to kind of get a, a, a feeling of your background, a bit of your story, I like to ask the opening question, but you look at your faith journey the last 10 years, there's been some major shifts for you in that time. One of them in particular. I do wanna follow up and, and talk about, which you can probably guess, but, uh, talk us a little bit about that.

Talk to us, what, what is the last 10 years in your faith? How has that changed for you? I.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: So I, I was thinking 10 years ago, right? 2016, everyone's sharing their 10 year pictures back on social media and all this. And, uh, I haven't done that, but I mean, that was a lot has changed in 10 years in our, in our world. Uh, I was a pastor at the time, I was a lead pastor for a church here in Texas. And, um.

If anyone is familiar with the background, uh, churches of Christ is actually my background. And so, uh, I think Malcolm Gladwell refers to us as the fundamentalist of the fundamentalist. So there is a badge of honor. [00:10:00] Uh, but, uh, yeah, that's right. So I'm no longer, uh, in that role anymore. I, in 2021, I, I moved out of full-time ministry.

It was an evolving, uh, theology journey for me. It was definitely a, a, a switch of calling from, uh, that church in a suburban white context to really a, a calling toward racial and social justice work. It's been a journey when it comes to all kinds of things that we can get into today. But yeah, I'm no longer in a church.

I, I'm meeting in a home with a faith community, uh, in the area. Uh, about half of our church is L-G-L-G-B-T-Q Community. It is a far cry from the world I grew up in, and, uh, the church I preach for.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: in you.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Oh, they are, oh, I can't, mom again, don't watch the show. Yeah. But, uh, no, I'm glad to be where I'm at. I'm grateful for the relationships that emerged.

I, I wouldn't trade it. Uh, but it is different than 10 years ago for sure.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: So you and I connected as I recall, and, and we'll see what you can recall. I, I remember, I, I think I had [00:11:00] shared my blog posts about why I was leaving in 2020 or something, is kind of how I remember it, that I had, I had shared like, Hey, I'm stepping away from this. And as I recall it, you reached out to me and, and we had met like in passing years before that.

So we knew of each other, but we didn't really know each other. And I remember you saying like, wow, you know, just, just read what you wrote and like, Hey, thanks for doing what you're doing. And then you said, I'm feeling something similar in my own story. remember that. I think you were one of the first people. know, when you go through something like that and you feel like your world is falling apart, and I think a lot of, especially listeners to this pod have had that feeling right, of like, I was in a faith community. Everything made sense, my beliefs made sense, and then you changed your mind or you saw something or you, you know, some, something changed and you're like, I can't go back.

And then it, it just kind of unravels. And then you feel like, well, I, I got nothing to offer. You were one of like the early like, [00:12:00] encouragement to me of like, maybe this story that has been like debilitating to me can actually offer some hope to other people who are going through it. So I'd love to hear from your point of view, I know my journey.

What was your journey like? I, I have to imagine it had a similar level of pain, confusion and all that. And I think, again, a lot of people, especially listening to this podcast can relate with that. to hear that. What, what transition from you saying, I want to be a lead pastor to, I don't want to be a lead pastor and becoming the version of you you are today.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah. Yeah. You were the trailblazer out west. Right. So I, I remember exactly where I was when I made that call. Our, our family was on a national parks trip. We were near, uh, Yellowstone National Park. I can remember exactly where we were that morning before we went into the park. Uh, it was 2020 and, uh, I didn't know how much longer I was gonna last.

And this was before George Floyd and a sermon I preached after that. That really was the speaking of shit storms even more, uh, that came. Um, [00:13:00] and so, yeah, you were somebody I reached out to that I, I just thought, okay, this is a path I'm probably on. Uh, it was more out of pastoral concern of just like a friend, somebody that I, I respected that I know is walking through a hard time.

And so why not reach out and just make sure things are good? But I also wondered what, what I might learn through that. If there were connections and you made a connection with. Uh, a friend out of, uh, the LA area. That was such a help to me as well. Um, that opened up new networks of people. But yeah, it was probably, um, about a year after that that I began a conversation with my elders at the church.

There was tension around, uh, some of the racial justice work that I'd done, city of Dallas and so forth. And so it was just, it was becoming clear that, uh, I was either gonna be asked to, to lower my voice, and there is a calling for some to, to do that long, uh, long, hard work in a, in a church context. But for me it was really a season that needed more, uh, louder voices, especially white leaders, to speak up about the racial reckoning that was happening and not hold our voices back or filter it.

And so, uh, I went to the elders and I said, it's time to transition. I had no idea what was next. Um, but you, uh, convinced me something would pop up. I mean, it worked for [00:14:00] Jeremy. Everything must be perfect in his life, right? It'll work for me.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Look

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: And it's, uh, thanks for being that example. So many of us are on the same journey.

Thanks to you, Jeremy. Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Yeah.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: but, and it's been a journey, right? I mean, for the last, uh, five years now, I've taken, I've been in four different jobs. Um, I've never passed the 12 month mark. And finally, current role I'm in right now looks like we're gonna get there. Uh, maybe my, my bosses won't watch this role, and that'll help me too.

But,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: You're

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: uh, no, I, this is, this is, uh, this is actually the first job. I feel like I'm there and it took some healing to do what I'm doing right now, which we'll, I'm sure talk about as we go through it. But I'm back, uh, speaking to white churches. I'm just not worshiping in that same space and, uh, finding freedom and new faith, community, new friends.

But yeah, you were a catalyst for that. You were helpful in connecting me with others. The podcast has been helpful to continue those conversations and just listen in. So I'm glad to be a long time listener. First time caller kind of thing, right?

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: That's beautiful. so let's talk about from your point of view, because I, I love [00:15:00] that you said louder voice and softer voice or you know, quieter voice. 'cause that is exactly what it was for me. It's exactly what it was for you of, hey, you can be here. You just can't say the things you're saying, you know?

And there is a personality of a pastor that's fine with that. You know, it's like, oh cool, I'll just dial it down a little bit. You know? Uh, I want to, I wanna shepherd everybody and they're fine. For guys like you and I and for probably many people listening to the, the podcast, that's not their personality.

They're like, no, things are not the way they should be. We should be able to call it out. We should be able to talk about it. do you think that is such a conversation that, that so many churches don't want to have? And I'm curious, 'cause you say now you, you still talk to these churches, but you're not worshiping there. Why is it you have to sometimes step out, do you think, before you can actually say the things you need to say?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah, I, I don't think I understood what ministry was really about. My dad was in ministry. I know your, your dad was too. I mean, this PK journey, you'd think we would've picked up something along the way to know, this may not be the [00:16:00] right word.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: We shouldn't have been a little bit smarter

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah. I mean, dad, our dads lied to us, like, let's be honest, and I, I appreciate that.

Like I have much less harm in my life as a PK than others do, uh, because I just didn't know all there was. But it led me into a career that I had no idea about. So what I remember was going to conferences and hearing these like prophetic sermons when I was in school, and I'm like, if that's what preaching is, that's.

I think that's what I'm called to do. And so I realized when you preach every week, uh, that's not exactly the preaching you do in your home congregation. When you start to bring that conference preaching, that prophetic preaching to your local congregation, they're gonna get tired of it. That rubber band's gonna stretch too much.

It's gonna break, and people are gonna challenge you. And you've heard it like I have, you know, we just need to keep politics out of the pulpit. We just, that race stuff, I mean, that, that's just too difficult. So leave that in other spaces, write a book. Um, but uh, this is not the place for it to, to preach on it.

So, yeah, I, I'm actually trying to imagine right now, and I, I'd love for the conversation to go this way. Thinking about the shitstorm right now, thinking about the [00:17:00] response of churches, certainly we have the civil rights movement to look back on, but, you know, the Confessing Church is a, a place I've, I've thought a lot about, and I, I, I often wonder what if there was a, a place for not just the Bonhoeffer of the world that were gonna, you know, sacrifice their lives potentially for this, the Confessing church, the Pastors Emergency League.

Who were those German Lutheran pastors that if they had been given a space to work within Subversively to continue as part of that, might have at one point spoken up when the, when the moment was needed, might've put chips away and put capital away. But it's really hard when you put those, that capital away when you have a mortgage, it is really difficult to get up and say the things that you feel like you're called to say.

And I, I have those conversations all the time still with pastors, that they're like Nicodemus at night conversations, not to compare myself with Jesus, but they don't know who else to go with and, and so they talk to the crazy guy that got fired and they, they say, what, how do I do this? How do I manage those conversations in my church?

And I wanna be helpful to those pastors. I think there is a place for it, but uh, we also need some voices that are gonna be loud and are gonna be [00:18:00] clear. Um, and uh, I'm hoping I'm one of those voices that's helpful to others in this journey, just as you have been as well, Jeremy.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm. That's good, Colin. Okay, so let's, let's elaborate on that. Let's talk about, because I think there are a lot of pastors who are showing up week after week. They're preaching, they're trying to be faithful. They're, they're trying to, you know, the, the analogy that has been explained to me, and I, I think the analogy works in a lot of ways is that, you know, leading a church is, is like running a merry-go-round. You gotta spin the merry-go-round, but you have to do it at the right speed. If you go too fast, you fling everybody off. If you go too slow, it's not a fun experience for anybody. So the, you know, that's the speed and you know, to which I said, well then I'm the guy that runs that thing way too fast, cannot slow it down, and I'm just launching people, you know, all over the place.

Which I think maybe some people that have attended a church that I led would be like, yeah, that's exactly what it felt like. You know, you launched us all over the

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yep.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: So That's where I [00:19:00] realized like, oh, I don't wanna be the guy running the merry-go-round, right.

Like, that's not for me. But you're bringing up, I think, a hopeful possibility that maybe there are those, those people who are running that, that could be reached, could be partnered with, could be empowered to maybe speed it up a little bit or say, Hey, you know, there's a moment that I wrestle with, and I'm curious if you have any, any hot take on this. When you look at like this, this regime right now, this, this presidency and the, I mean, just the, literally the daily onslaught we get of what's, what's gonna be added today. And as of this recording, uh, the latest was, you know, our, our sitting president posting a photo of the previous administration, the Obamas, him and his wife, their faces on, uh, a picture of monkeys, which if you Google that, the research or the history of that is an incredibly blatant [00:20:00] racist.

I mean, there's, there's no way you can defend that and go, oh, it's just a joke. Like it's, it's a racist joke. Like it's, and, and he knows exactly what he's doing. And so I'm looking at that and, you know, the thought I had today is like, like, you can't defend that. And I think early on people were like, yeah, but you know, it's about the babies or it's about, you know, there was something like, something to defend. I think we're at a point now where I, I would look at someone and go, I don't think you can in good conscience defend any of this. The only, the only thing you can really do is choose silence, right? Is is to say, I'm just gonna avoid it. I'm not gonna talk about it. You know, and that whole idea of like, I'm just gonna preach Jesus, like I'm just gonna, and I think they do that.

There are pastors, I think do that with a good heart. You know? There's also ones that do it out of cowardice. Like,

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: That's right.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: it is of I'm, I have to pay my mortgage. I'm afraid of, you know, what people would say to me or the emails I would get, or, you know, there's conflict there. as we talk about this, 'cause there's a, there's a ton of pastors there, there's a ton of churches there.

[00:21:00] Probably a lot of our listeners attend a church like that, you know, where they're like, kind of wishing C we say more? Could we do more? How do we reach that person? How do we, how do we get them to speed up the marone? What, what do you think can, you know, when you see everything going? Like, okay, now, like, you know what I mean?

I, I, I struggle with. you haven't, if you've got to this point and none of it has been enough for you, I don't know what could be enough. Like that's where I, I think, kind of give into despair. So speak some hope to me today, Colin. What, what is it that we can look at and go, Hey, maybe we can appeal to this, or maybe this might work.

What have you, what have you found?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Here I am. I'm the guy being asked for hope. It's like, uh, I, every time Kristen Juma gets interviewed, that's the question at the end, every time Ta Hasi Coates gets interviewed, that's the question at the end. I don't know what kind of hope to offer, but it is the work that I'm setting out to do. And if I'm not willing to go into those spaces and offer that possibility, then I need to go do something else.

And so, uh, yeah, I'm grateful for [00:22:00] the space I get to, uh, to live in myself, to be able to speak boldly, but I, I'm trying to imagine that space right now for those, that whatever it is, whether it's the mortgage or it's, uh, trying to hold their church together, there's a lot of good there. I, I've talked to pastors just the last few weeks that have said, you know, I always imagined I would be the Bonhoeffer.

Like I would be the one who would, uh, be willing to sacrifice my life, but I've got a diverse church. There's some good things that are happening. I just don't wanna blow this thing up on my, on, on my watch. And so I'm trying to imagine if that's, if it is good. You know, goodwill, right? That's being asked there.

If they're being honest about what that is. What is the way that you bring courage to those people and not get, have them continue to be radicalized by silence in those, uh, communities that they're gonna go to when they know, uh, well, Colin's not somebody I can talk to, to, to walk through this. At the same time.

If you, if you don't have a red line and a red line that's communicated to people that have spoken out, then you're just putting chips away and you're never gonna end up doing anything. So there has to be on both sides, right? Uh, there can't be disdain and [00:23:00] discuss that. That doesn't allow for people to do things in different ways, in different spaces at the same time.

Today would be one of those days. You talked about that incident today, and I'm watching some voices speak out that I haven't before. I hope this is one of those moments when the show comes out, my guess is we'll forget about this 'cause it'll be the next thing that's on the merry-go-round in this administration.

But there has to be a red line. There has to be something that, when that happens, and I don't know how, you haven't had the red line yet. I don't know how you could get to this point. And that is still a red line. It's further out there. Uh, but if we're gonna have a hope of a a tipping point, it's gonna be those early adopters that are gonna speak out.

But at some point, there's gonna have to be that those, those, that middle ground, those people in the middle, I, I've heard the stat recently from those that are talking about how do you take down an authoritarian regime when it comes to a nonviolent resistance? And the numbers that are, there are three point a half percent of the population that need to step up and be in the streets to somehow nonviolently resist that movement.

That sounds like such a small number, but that gives me some hope because the, the thought is if, if three and a half percent of our people are out there, right? We [00:24:00] saw Minneapolis recently, I think we we're getting close to those figures in some cities in Minneapolis. If we can get to that 3.5% mark, all those people who are silent, all of a sudden feel the need to, to move in.

And we saw that in 2020. It was a blip on the radar. It wasn't as committed as it needed to be. But those people are there. The people with black squares, they're watching, they're in that middle ground. And, and my hope is this can be a moment in the midst of this administration. We don't know what's ahead,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: but it is a time that we've got to, uh, make sure we're not, uh.

Casting everyone out of our circles and, and saying, okay, now's the time. You ready to speak up? It, it's time for that red line to be crossed and for you to join. Uh, this, if you've been building chips, now's the time to spend them. It's time to get out there. And so that's the hope I have. I'm, I'm trying to do things better than I knew how to.

I think I made some mistakes when I was in ministry that I think our ministry's trying to help others, uh, do better. So I think I've got some learning to do to help help others, but it's still gonna take courage. It's still gonna take that, that risk that you may not be there the next Sunday. Uh, it's still gonna take, uh, the fact that, that people are gonna say some things about you and, [00:25:00] uh, and, and take you, take, take you down along the way.

But we, we need people of courage in this moment. I, I hope that red line is something that those pastors are thinking about. What is the red line? What would be too far? What is it a generation from now my kids are gonna ask me about? That's what motivated me, right? It was, I don't if my grandkids are gonna ask me about this, I wanna be on record.

I wanna be in the streets when it was right. I want to be naming the right thing and, and explaining and, and trying to put on display a kingdom that is far better than the one that I see. Lived out in our church culture so often.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm. Okay. So interesting on, on that point. 'cause I, I've, I've said that line too of like, Hey, you know, I want to, I want to be faithful to, like, when this story is told, I want to, you know, I wanna be the, the idea of like being on the right side of history or, you know, telling your future generations. Like, here's what I said, here's what I did.

And I, I watched someone recently challenge that idea and I thought this was an intriguing argument. And they said, um, they said, stop talking about being on the right side of history and stop talking about future generations, uh, applauding you. Because what they were saying is you [00:26:00] may need to do something good that future generations won't even understand. And I thought that was an interesting, like, make room to go. History may not even at the point it's told or whatever, might not even acknowledge what we are doing. But we may need to do something good in this moment that only is gonna be misunderstood in this moment, might be misunderstood by my kids or my grandkids.

You know what I mean? And that was just an intriguing idea. What do you think about that? That like, maybe there's something even, even messier, even harder than, than history

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: out.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah. I mean, even that thought that history will, will tell the story differently or one day it'll be, uh, you know, the martyrs will get told in a be in a beautiful way of what's happened. I, that assumes some kind of like Omega point like movement, that things are progressing and moving to a better place where future generations are getting there.

And I'm tired right now, especially in racial justice spaces of people of a, a previous generation getting asked the question, well, aren't things better now than what they were. And I'm sorry. When I saw those [00:27:00] tiki torches in Charlottesville, I gave up that vision. I realized that, you know, when I, when I see the Nick Fuentes of the world and others that are gaining adherence with younger generations, younger men in particular, we can't assume that that future is gonna be the future.

And so doing things just for the right reason, 'cause it's the right thing to do, no matter what the cost may be, that ought to be enough. There're gonna be some though that are gonna need those other, uh, leverages or things that, that come along the way. So, yeah, I think it's something to throw out to some to say, Hey, this has been an example before.

We can talk about how hated Dr. King was in that moment, right? And we, we wanna glamorize him and tell a much mythologized story today. Um, but he's beloved in ways he wasn't. So that hope's there, but it's not a guarantee. And that future hope that things are just moving to a better place. I, I wanna keep that hope, uh, as a person that believes in the, uh, the cross, the resurrection, that that's a, that God is gonna restore all things one day.

That that's where things are headed. But I, I have less hope about that than I have in, in previous moments where I preached so, so boldly and clearly that there was no doubt that's. Where the universe was headed [00:28:00] was, uh, the, the arc of the, you know, universe is long, but it bends toward justice in a sense.

That's, that's my hope. But it is not a guarantee.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: It is interesting just listening to you talk about hope you're in this space that is such a fragile commodity, right? You know, it's, you can't give it up you, you can't say, Hey, I'm gonna go into this work and have no hope. At the same time, you know, I, I resonate with like you said, like, why do I gotta give the hope?

You know, that's how I feel all the time. Like every time I get up there, it's like, why do I have to give you hope? I, you know, and so I, I do struggle with that of like, there's days where I, it's like I just wanna throw the towel in. Like, you win, like, it's too much, you know? And I don't, I don't, I don't know what to do with this. yet, you know, you, you go, well if, if I'm gonna follow this, this Jesus guy, that, that's not one of my options, I gotta keep going. And, you know, for anyone who's only audio only on this, I'm wearing my Portland Resist shirt. In honor of this conversation today, which I think shout out to all my, uh, organ, organ peeps, but I love the frog [00:29:00] resistance image, I think is so beautiful of, we're gonna keep showing up.

We're gonna do it nonviolently, we're gonna do it creatively, right? We we're gonna make your, your violent fascist regime looks silly because we're gonna resist you in a Portland or a, a frog suit, you know? And I just, I love everything about that. And I think to me, that's just like a reminder of like, I mean, it's just a simple icon, like, show up, like be the frog.

Keep, keep going, like keep dreaming. we do have the Holy Spirit, should we not have an infinite well of creativity to draw from that every moment the Holy Spirit can guide us into some new, some new alternative, right? Not because we're brilliant or we're gonna solve it, but because we're tapping into something greater than us.

So that's, that's the hope I have. And it's, it's helpful to have other people who are in this work and go, let's talk about hope together. Well, I think what would be fun is to, to talk about, so you are the strategic development director of [00:30:00] LTR Ministries, which, uh, sounds very official these days. So good job on that.

I hope you make it a year because it's,

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: right.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: sounds cool. and I was looking through the website and, uh, there's an explanation on the name. And so it says, we believe conversations are the first step in a journey of reconciliation. Therefore, let's talk. That's the L and the T. Then it says, next is the R, which we believe can stand for several things.

And then there's four things mentioned on the website, four Rs. And I thought these would be fun just to go through each of these and let's, let's talk about how you see this playing out in the world right.

now. So the first one is, let's talk race. We believe that we have to talk about race. We need to have conversations about the spiritual, historical, and societal impacts of race and racism in America. What do you think?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah, this was like the, the last thing we wanted to talk about in the church setting I was in. So it is a new world, but we're [00:31:00] trying to go into, we, we are our, our ministry is actually designed to talk to white Christians in particular, and that's because so many of our friends. Of color 2020, racial reckoning, all, you know, on and on.

We can go back the decades, but they're tired of having to be the ones that are always educating us, right? So they're, they're saying, look, there are books out there, there are documentaries. You can do this work. You don't have to depend on us. And the secondary trauma that always comes as you ask the questions that you do.

So we are trying to take on that trauma for them. We're trying to have those hard conversations. Maybe be somebody that's white talking to other white Christians, uh, in particular that they know there's questions they shouldn't ask other spaces, but maybe this is at least the right place. And that's on the way to the multiracial conversations, the, uh, that that need to take place.

So we want people to have conversations with their black and brown neighbors, uh, that they've never talked to. They think they're best friends. They use that as a talking line all the time. Well, my best friend is so and so. Well, you may think they're a friend, but if you've never talked about race with your friend of color, uh, there's a good chance that you think this [00:32:00] relationship's deeper than it is for them.

They don't feel like that's a safe place. Maybe they can go with you. And so we're trying to. Uh, prepare the conversation, uh, maybe open people's eyes in a way, um, provide lenses. And that's what that history, you know, the theology and the sociology, those three lenses are, are trying to help white people see what we're so often blind to.

Um, I, in my experience, I grew up in a predominantly white church. Uh, I grew up in a private Christian school, what I sometimes refer to as a segregated academy because it started with intention in a particular era in Dallas when, uh, when, when integration was taking place. And my dad went there, the generation before me, and there I am.

Well, that's shaped the way I saw history that shaped the way that I saw the Bible, uh, right in the fundamentalist, the fundamentalist group that we were in. Uh, and so I was blind to so much until I finally was in my, i, my thirties, and it was a mentor of mine, Dr. Dr. Taylor, um, a professor at the school I went to who invited me to a racial unity summit.

And all of a sudden, uh, I'm uncomfortably trying to talk through race in a way that I'd never been prepared to [00:33:00] do. And so. I, I just wanted to be silent. I didn't wanna say anything wrong. And that is what we find in so many people is good hearted people, but they don't wanna talk about it because they know they could be canceled.

They know they could say something that would blow up a friendship or a relationship, but we can't hide from this. We gotta be able to, to gain the tools. And that's what we want to do, is not just send you out to do it. We wanna prepare you for those conversations so that maybe there's some, there's less harm that happens, uh, even though we're not gonna do it perfectly.

Uh, when you do engage those conversations with either church members that may be of, of different races, maybe you have a family that's, that's growing diverse in different ways. We're trying to prepare white people for those conversations. These conversations are open to all. And so we, we do find value when there are people of color that are in these classes and, and they're able to give personal experience to how this isn't just historical, this is, has ongoing impact.

Um, and so yeah, that's, let's talk race. It. We must talk about race class is important too, but sometimes we go to the class conversation. We miss how race has been, uh, a huge factor in our church's history and still has ongoing effects. We see it on the, on the, this administration, [00:34:00] this president's. Social media today.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: I, I recall, you know, when. When 2020, this kind of all really escalated to a, a different level. the popular thing was, you know, uh, one of the things I got in trouble for was saying Black Lives Matter. I said that in the pulpit. And then I had someone tell me, you're not allowed to say that in, in the church.

You know? And it, they weren't, they weren't mad that, like I was, uh, because I wasn't plugging the organization, black Lives Matter. I was just making a statement, Hey, church, can, can we acknowledge Black Lives Matter? You know, and they're being threatened right now in a unique way. Like that was just, to me, a that's low hanging fruit, right?

And then I got all this pushback and then, you know, the response was, all lives matter. And that became the rhetoric for a while. And I remember sitting down with people and, you know, they, they like couldn't understand. Like, why, why would you say Black Lives Matter? Why, why would you not say, you know, that Blue Lives Matter and you don't care about that?

[00:35:00] And I remember sitting down explaining. No one is born a blue life. That is a job that they chose and like watching, like slowly a light bulb go off of people. Like, so you want to equate someone being treated the way they're treated because of the color of the skin they were born with, with someone choosing a job that puts them in, in harm's way.

Right. Which again, we can, you can acknowledge there's a lot of officers who do really good work and are very courageous. We can make room for that a absolutely. But that's a job they chose, right? Like no one made 'em do that. So to say that these are the same thing and you know, to put like, where I live, you know, we have, I still see the, the stickers with the American flag and the blue line through it all the time.

Every day I'll probably see this and it's just like this reminder to me of like, we are so tone deaf. As white people to this conversation, what do you say to the person that maybe even is [00:36:00] listening to this episode right now and is like, come on, like this is not a big deal. Uh, you guys are making it a big deal and, and truly doesn't see why we need to talk about race.

What have you learned to like, help people maybe take that step out to go? No, it's a bigger deal than you think it is.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah, I, you know, I, I think back to the same sermon I preached and I talked about Black Lives Matter. I got the same pushback of, are you saying the organization, here's what that organization believes. And, and it was a principle of value that seems so obvious to me, but it, it isn't obvious to everyone. It wasn't probably for me at one point.

And so I have to be aware of that and be persuasive, per persuasive, invite people into conversations that can open their eyes a bit. That's what we do. But I remember the giving the analogy at the time of like, okay, um, you know, there's all lives matter type stuff. Like if, if there's a fire in a neighborhood, right?

And there's a house that's on fire and you know, the. Fire department comes out and [00:37:00] tries to put that blaze out. It would be bizarre for someone to come outside their house and say, why are you so, why are you putting water on this house? That doesn't make any sense. We, we have a whole neighborhood that needs water, that needs support.

Well, the house is on fire right now. Like it, it is time to take care of that matter right then, and then we can talk about something larger and really, it's gonna help your house not catch on fire. If we put this out first, it actually has a benefit for all those who are around it.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Which

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: It's like, I, I, I,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: to add to someone like you. If you think your house isn't connected to that house, you're, you're living in a delusion.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: yeah, I think about Jesus in the, the Beatitudes, right? About, you know, blessed or all these different groups he speaks to. I'm just imagining like in that crowd, like something the same way that we heard after our sermon going up to Jesus saying, ah, the poor in spirit Jesus. Don't you mean blessed are all people?

Like, that's the blessing we wanna pronounce. It's on everybody. All people are blessed. And it's like

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: That's an amazing application

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: there, there's a point that he's trying to make with a particular group of people that he's healed in chapter four that are there in that mountain. They've been ostracized, they've been outta community, and he's [00:38:00] trying to speak a word to a particular audience, a particular group of people who did not feel blessed in that moment.

This morning I was down at the Dallas, um, ice field office. It's a place that I found, um, where a clergy group in Dallas is doing work of clergy accompaniment. We have Latina organizers that are down there that are doing incredible work for people that are coming for what are just their normal appointments.

And that same point that you made about the blue lives, I mean, I, we, we wanna maintain the humanity of everyone who there, who, who are there. We pray for the souls of the ice officers because what they're doing is putting their souls in danger, right? There's a dehumanizing effect to what they're being trained to do and what they're doing every day.

They gotta make a living, but it is doing something to them. And it's important for us to speak about that, but not dehumanize. We wanna keep that in mind. But we are there first and foremost for our migrant friends who are coming to that detention center. Who don't know what they're about to, to, to, to encounter.

I, I prayed with somebody just this morning that was just terrified. They just needed a word of comfort in the midst of going in. And [00:39:00] I'm not praying for outcomes. I've learned long enough that you don't pray for outcomes and know what's gonna happen. This is out of our control, but praying that God would be with them and that the presence of God would be with them as they go in, as they think, if I could just say the right phrase, then maybe they'll let me out this time.

And then the family members that are gonna be devastated two hours later, we know because more and more people are detained. But there's a difference between being, uh, an immigrant in this country and taking a $50,000 bonus and going to work for an organization that's a different identity. It's one you choose.

And, uh, and so our solidarity in this moment looks like standing alongside while also seeking not to dehumanize. And there have been plenty of justice movements that have been been able to do those two things. To name where the problem is to put the fire out in the house where it is right now to name, where the systemic injustices and race is just one of those many things that we have to pay attention to and talk about.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm. That's so good. Why? Why do you think we're not hearing as much All lives matter right now?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Whew.[00:40:00]

That's a great question. I don't have an answer to, uh, to that. I haven't heard that phrase in a real long time.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Uh, maybe it is 'cause we stopped saying Black Lives Matter is the problem, or Brown Lives matter, so maybe it is that we need to,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: other day and I thought, that's interesting. We don't say that anymore. And it's not because they're suddenly not, those houses aren't on fire anymore.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: hmm.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: you know, the, I think the, the pieces of the game have been rearranged in such a way that the whole narrative is different now.

The whole conversation is different now. Who's in power? Who's, you know, and, uh, yeah. It's, it's just a very, it's very interesting when you have all these phrases that were so heated, so, so much a part of so many conversations. And then you

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: how they, how they age, you know, how they play out. And, uh, I think

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Does anyone remember CRTI? I don't even remember what the letters stand for anymore. Right? No one brings that up.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: see that, that's fa I haven't thought about that in a while. That's a, that's a fascinating Yeah. Critical race theory.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: about that. Haven't heard that in a

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: [00:41:00] Yeah,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Um, because it, I. My, my knee-jerk reaction is these conversations have been squashed at

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: at a major, you know, uh, like

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: right.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: level.

We're, we're, we're not talking about 'em. And we've literally watched, you know, the, the Trump administration, like, remove these talking points, remove these conversations, remove so much literally of they're trying to remove the history. The

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: That's right.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: but like the record of the histories, you know, in these different ways of like, no, we're not talking about that. That's not a thing anymore. And it is wild to be a part of it. And 'cause then you go, oh, how do you keep doing the work when the conversation keeps changing and now you know, you, you gotta meet people where they are and what they understand. But man, is it funky right now? All right.

so that, that was, that was the first R R, let's talk real. We know that these conversations are going to be hard. They're going to get real and they are going to challenge all of us. Colin, we both know from personal experience, the church is not [00:42:00] great at this, at having real conversations. How do we talk real conversations?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah. Yeah. I, when I look back on the sermons, I preached like I was trained, right? The newspaper in one hand, Bible on the other. But man, that newspaper went away a lot more than just the Bible that I was trying to, you know, pick up and, and exe and bring something of, of meaning to people. Uh, you know, we're inviting people to have real conversations in this space.

We're trying to create the kind of safety that they can talk about that we, we talk in our curriculum about. Shame is not a helpful, uh, place to go in this conversation. Uh, we realize that you're not somebody who probably owns slaves, but that doesn't mean that we're not responsible for the impacts that have happened.

And so we're, we're, we don't, traffic and shame and guilt as the primary thing. There is that sense of godly sorrow that leads to repentance, that I think Paul has something helpful there that he, you know, he's pointing us to, that we're trying to, to lean into. But, uh, we can't get real if shame is the place where people [00:43:00] go.

I, we just developed our second class, which is a Latin American class, which at the timing couldn't be any better. And we're walking through in three weeks the history of colonialization of Latin America. The, the history of immigration law and what's led to our current moment and the cycles that are there, and then the ongoing effects that are there in the, uh, Latino, Latina.

Community. And, uh, Dr. Robert Cha Romero, who's a professor at UCLA has helped us develop this curriculum, written a great book called Brown Church, or the Brown Church. And it is, is is just wonderful at speaking to the, the beauty of Liberation Theology and Misson Integral and these, these theological frameworks that, uh, I wish I'd gotten a lot sooner 'cause it would've been helpful for what I was trying to do.

Um, but there's this richness to the church, uh, in Latin America that I, I wasn't taught because it was mostly white professors and mostly white textbooks that we were reading from. And uh, but when we get to the end of like 15 minutes of just, this is what happened to these indigenous cultures, this is what happened.

The only place people know how to go is to, is to that kind of [00:44:00] shame piece. And right now we're trying to think too, like in that curriculum, like how do we help people make a transition from that into there are these beautiful things the church has done every time white supremacy does. Its worst. The church has done beautiful things in response, and often it's immigrant, uh, churches.

Often it's, uh, black churches that have done this incredible work in the midst of Jim Crow and so forth. Um, we need to look to them in this moment. We, we look back to Nazi Germany and we look to the confessing church. I mentioned that earlier. We've got our own example in the American Church of the Civil Rights Movement and the black church in that moment that we, we don't have to skip over that on the way to Germany.

We've got examples in our own, uh, culture that we can look back to. And so, but, but moving people to seeing the positive examples, you gotta tell the truth and that's real, but you gotta get people past their shame to where they can actually kinda grapple with and tell the truth. We, we talk also about the good, bad binary, um, that in our culture, if you are racist is bad, obviously, and, and, and not being racist is good.

And so, uh, you're, we're careful not to say [00:45:00] anything that would lead people to think that we're racist, which leads us to not having real conversations and, and just kind of, uh, not talking about it all together. Because if we were to somehow let something out. Or put a video on our social media feed like we saw today, then everyone will know the truth about us.

And so let's just not talk about it. 'cause it's difficult, it's hard. And let's keep the peace as if peace is just the absence of conflict and we can ignore it. That's a luxury that we have as people of privilege to be able to ignore conversations. So what we're asking people to do is to, to, to have real conversations, to dig into the truth of things, to speak to the truth of it, to admit what's going on inside of us.

And that anger is often the response. And how do we manufacture, move that from spiritual formation into a, from a moral outrage to what, uh, Gregory Boy Boyles talked about as moral compass, right? That, uh, leads us to not react, but to respond out of the sense of the Jesus story and what we've committed our lives to.

So that's the kind of real conversation we're trying to grapple with. And that good, bad binary keeps us from getting to hard conversations. 'cause we don't wanna slip up and be told [00:46:00] that we're racist and we'll do anything. To, to make sure that everyone knows we're not that when the truth is we, we've grown up in an incredibly racist culture.

There are things we are blind to, there are systemic realities that are at play. And I like to just start in, in that place that I, I am still a racist, right? I, I, I don't want that to be the case, but there are things I'm still learning when I'm at the tent, at the ice field office of things that I say that I just, I have not yet picked up on.

And the only way we make that better and make that a safer place is not me running away from those conversations. It's me humbling admitting I don't yet know what it is. I've learned a lot about African American journey. I'm just now learning about the Latin American experience in Texas, where that's the majority of, of the population in Dallas.

It's growing. So we have to model that real, uh, conversation. We have to create the kind of safety for that kind of conversation. But we're pushing everyone on these calls to not just sit back and learn and, and make this a theoretical exercise, but to actually engage in real conversation. And the only way that can happen is if on the backside our facilitators.

Are ensuring that it is the [00:47:00] kind of safe place where, where grace is is a part of these conversations and you're not gonna be canceled if you, uh, ask the hard questions you have or, or slip up along the way.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: No, that's good. That good bad binary. That's, that's a, that's a word for someone today that and I just was listening to you, I'm like, what if churches were known for that? Like,

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Hmm.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: if churches were known like, oh, that's where you're gonna have real conversation. Like, wouldn't that be so rad if that was. The collective reputation of a local church

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: if you want to have meaningful, real conversations, that's where they're, that's where they're gonna take place as what I would just encourage, like anybody listening to this, if you are involved in a church, you have any leadership, any influence, like what an invitation to bring that real conversation there. And you know, as I'm listening to you, the word that sticks out to me is curiosity.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Mm-hmm. Yep.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: to understand things that we don't understand? sadly, many of us aren't. You know, it's like, oh, I, I, I know what I know and I'm fine with that, you know, versus, Hey, as I hear [00:48:00] your story, there's things I don't understand in that, you know, and so like letting that create a curiosity to find out more, like, Hey, why, did you have that reaction?

Why do you think that? Why did, why are you valuing something differently than I'm valuing something? You know, all those curiosity points are what leads to a really good, healthy conversation. So, man, that's so good. All right, third one, let's talk reconciliation. We were given the Ministry of Reconciliation. This is the charge to the church, and we are challenged to understand what this means. Got a little bit of a churchy word there. How do

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: do we talk about reconciliation?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: and we use that word reconciliation 'cause it shows up in the scriptures and that's helpful to some people. But man, our, my friends of color have said really, is it reconciliation or is it reconciliation? Like

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: to reconcile means it was once the way it should be that those relationships were together.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Oh,

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Conciliation admits, it's never really been in that place. We're doing this for the first time. This is cutting edge work. So I, it it fits the r scheme, but the reality is,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: We

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: [00:49:00] uh

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: in there, guys. Come on. It's ours. Only

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: That's right. That's right. That's right. We know how that is as preachers alliteration, but yeah, I, I, and cons, reconciliation's difficult. We think about forgiveness and those are, those are different things, right? I mean, like, sometimes we run away from forgiveness 'cause we misunderstand what it is and, and we think that forgiveness is that we somehow ignore what took place, right?

I mean, both of us can talk about harm we've experienced at the church and it's not gonna be helpful for us to be able to walk to a, he a healthier place if we can't admit, hey, there's been some things that have happened to us as just, uh, it's ungodly, it's un unbelievable. There are people who would claim the name of Christ that would treat us and say the things that, that they've said.

Um, so we don't, we don't hide from those things. We admit the truth of what's happened doesn't mean things that go back to trust automatically, right? I mean. Just because we ha we take a class and we go talk with our, uh, you know, black friend down the road or Latino friend down the road, doesn't mean that they have to trust us fully.

That is gonna be a process. If we've ever harmed someone in our marriage or in relationships, we [00:50:00] know that can be slow going if we rush it, uh, that, that's not gonna be enough. So that are forgiveness. Conversations. Reconciliation though, moves us into, let's talk about more r words, right? It's gonna talk about repair, it's gonna talk about repentance, it's gonna be changing our minds, um, changing our behaviors, but it's also gonna mean that something has to be repaired when there has been systemic injustice.

That word reparation, that can be such a polarizing word. It's a, it's a vital conversation when it comes to these matters. Um, in our city, in, in the city of Dallas, uh, if you were to divide the city by I 30, kind of being the dividing line, north and south, similar geography in the north as in the south in terms of area, surface area, but, but get this, 85% of the tax base of, of the attacks that comes in is on the north side of I 30 in Dallas.

That has to beg some questions about some things that have taken place that need repairing. That's environmental factors that have been the result of that. That's highways that have divided communities, that they've then been dispersed. It's it's gentrification that's taking place, uh, in [00:51:00] our cities. It's COVID out health outcomes that we saw the same areas that were redlined in the 1930s and forties, uh, where they couldn't get investment because, uh, the home loan corporation wouldn't allow loans to go to places that were redlined.

The same stats were there when it came to COVID. Um, you know, disparate impacts. There is a 26 year age difference, um, of, of life expectancy for men in a certain zip code that is two miles away from another zip code in the city of Dallas. Like

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: That's wild.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: anyone who cares right? Ought to be asking questions about why is that the case?

It's not because a culture is less able to to live longer. There are. Systemic factors that are, uh, that, that are, that are at play there. There's, uh, economic disparity that's at play. There's education, there's, there's policing that shows up different in communities. I mean, right now, the largest detention facility that's being considered to be placed in the United States in the midst of this expanding access is gonna be, is, is looked at right now in Hutchins, Texas, Southern Dallas County, Frisco's on the north side.

That's where the star is. That's where the Cowboys have their [00:52:00] practices. That's where Jerry Jones has his developments on the north side of the city go cowboys. But man, it's, it's a conflict when I see these realities, right? I, I live in a neighborhood that he developed on the north side in Allen, in, in Dallas.

Nobody's thinking about a warehouse in Frisco to put those people. They're gonna put that on the south side of the city. 'cause that's where we built warehouses. They're gonna peel the roof off, they're gonna put cages in there, and we're doing our best to see that. That doesn't happen in this place. The same thing's happening across the country.

And so when you hear those realities, it's not enough to just say, would you forgive me for this? Forgiveness needs to be a part of this conversation. Confession, repentance. It's gotta move past that. And so reconciliation is about learning. It's about growing. In our awareness, it's about building deeper relationships and lament.

But if we don't ever get to that question of what needs to be repaired, um, then it's just cheap forgiveness. It's cheap grace in the words of, of other writers like Bonhoeffer that have speaking to this, spoken to this before. So yeah, it's, it's not where we start, but it is definitely a part of where things need to go when it comes to the Christians and the churches that we're engaged in this [00:53:00] conversation.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm. That's so good. Fourth one is, let's talk regarding, there are subjects, I can't even say this with a straight face. There are subjects that have become taboo in the church to discuss. Have you found that to be true, Colin? Uh, wow. How do we have meaningful, nuanced, helpful conversations about these topics? Have you found there's. taboo subjects to discuss in the church.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: yeah. Race wasn't the only issue I had when I was in a local church context, that's for sure. Right. I mean, on and on. We could talk about the different topics and we're open to that, that maybe there's a day where this moves beyond. Let's talk race conversation. Uh, I think taboos are there. Uh, when we can't speak about something, it means, it has like a, a power that we don't recognize.

There's a, there's an idolatry most often there that if we can't speak about something, it has us in ways we don't even recognize. So we're, we're beginning this conversation about race. Um, David [00:54:00] Nelli started this ministry park. Their, their, uh, their son Jeremiah, they adopted, he was African American. And that opened their eyes to, uh, so much that they had not seen before about how do you raise a, a young black man in America.

And so they had conversations with all their friends just trying to find out like, how do we, how do we raise him in a way that's gonna make sure that he's safe? Because if we don't have certain conversations about the police or about any number of things, then, then we're not doing our job as parents.

And so it was that journey that led them to see more, and that that's true about race. But the same kind of curiosity that we spoke about earlier needs to be. Engaged on a, on a whole matter of, of topics. So yeah, we're open to what that might lead us into expansion. But no, the church is not the best place so often to have these real reconciliatory, you know, conversations that, uh, get us into a lot of different topics.

So that, I mean, that's what your podcast is really all about, right? Is it's trying to speak to, to matters and wine helps with it. Right? Um, that we'll see where I get as we, uh, as I pour of the glass. But [00:55:00] you've, you've been there in the bar or in the wine bar where uh, conversations just come in a way that they can't on Sunday morning.

And, uh, my best conversations when it came to ministry we're gonna happen around a bottle of wine. Um, and, uh, we're trying to do the same thing. Our faith community is, is centered around a table. The meal is centered in what we do. We share bread and wine, uh, around that table as well. Um, it's not a worship experience that we center ourselves in, and that has just transformed the way that these people who've been, you know, traumatized by the exclusion in certain segments, uh, or just not being accepted for whatever reason it is, or a family member that's a loved one that they're trying to support.

They, they can't get full support. Um, coming to our community and being around a table and being able to tell those stories has been vital to the kind of community we're trying to build. So, I applaud you and what you're trying to do. I, I hope to make one of these trips down the line. If we can get another whiskey or wine trip down the, down the way, I'll bring some people, but that's where it happens.

And uh, I think all of us know that, right? Uh, our Bible class on Sunday morning, a small group, it's gonna be a hard place unless you've nurtured [00:56:00] just kind of outta the ordinary, uh, skills to be able to have those conversations. And probably along the way you've made some mistakes and had to repair some things as well.

And that's, that's not a problem. It should be something we expect in Christian community that's committed to each other. So. Yeah. Uh, regarding, we'll, we'll see where that takes us, but I've certainly experienced that taboo. I'm glad to be in freer spaces where those conversations are, are happening much more.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm. And you know, you, you just summed

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: so much of the work I'm doing today, so much of my own journey. I think you, there are guys like you and I, not, and girls too, but um, that go into the church thinking this will be the place where you can have these real conversations and with the best of intentions, right?

And then when you discover a lot of church settings, you can't have these conversations, then you have that choice, right? As you, you lower your voice, lower your volume, or you go somewhere else. And I'm thankful today I have found there are still churches that are willing to have these conversations, not as many as I like or would love to see more of [00:57:00] them. Um, trying to create more of this to be normative for churches of like, Hey, you can talk about some of these taboo things, but I think part of it is you have to create spaces like these. This is why I love the podcasting format, right, is like, this is not a Sunday morning service. There is no elder board over this.

These are just, these are just conversations we're having and we're gonna go wherever the conversation goes. And because of that. I wanna just, this is not you as the strategic development director, this is you as my friend. Colin, I want you just to speak for a moment because there is an issue that has been near and dear to both of us that not directly with the work you're doing, but I know led to some of your story. think you would say you've changed your mind on L-G-B-T-Q inclusion. I have as well. We, we both came from a different world, a different understanding, and at some point realized, hey, the way the church is handling this right. And then we both found out the hard way. This is very taboo. You, you are not allowed to, you know, there, there's like this one and then if you change your view on hell, [00:58:00] uh, or the

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: That's right.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: you booted out of Christian communities faster than anything else.

And you know, to this day I have. Many people who I think are convinced I'm not a Christian because of my view on those two things. right.

And it's like, okay, that's fine. But that's be, that's just showing you how taboo this is. speak for a moment. Why, why is the, the gay community and all that has been done to them, why is that so taboo, and how do you see churches making more space for that?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah. Where to go on that, right? Like, uh, I mean, our community, we have a faith community of probably, you know, 50 people that kind of come around our space from time to time. It's rarely that on a, on a regular Sunday evening when we meet together in a home. Um, but about half of that community is the L-G-B-T-Q community.

We've had four weddings in the last, uh, six months. Um, and these were individuals that grew up in evangelical spaces. Many of them spoke against, uh, homosexuality [00:59:00] or same sex attractions they might have spoken about in the past, but they recognized at some point that this is my identity. This is who I am.

These are people that are following Jesus. They were leading Bible studies in, uh, in. Mega churches in the Dallas area. Some of them were executive assistants for senior pastors that you've seen on social media. And when this came out, it was one of the only issues that would've ensured that as soon as they recognized that, as soon as they admitted that was where they are and that they weren't gonna be, uh, you know, side B, they weren't gonna be, um, you know, out of relationships and trying to remain celibate.

That was the end of it. Your job's done.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: And I could tell those stories. It's not mine to tell, right? It's their story to tell, but, uh, to be a space that they can come as they're trying to sort through all that. When they were gonna go to the justice of the peace and get married because their family might not show up and now we're able to throw them wedding showers and then they decide maybe there are people that would actually be there at the wedding if we were to host that.

And the ways they like in Jesus centered ways, fruit of the spirit ways. [01:00:00] Are having conversations with people that will not show up to their wedding, or they're, they will show up and they're gonna be problems at their wedding. And they're having curious, confessional, humble conversations with their loved ones.

They're representing Jesus in a far better way than, uh, so many that I've seen in churches and the ones that they're engaging with ever have the staffs that kick them out, even though they've done great work in graphic design or in worship ministry and whatever it may, may be. So to watch these people and to see the fruit of the spirit in their lives, I, I don't know.

I, I think segregation was a way for us to not encounter people of different races so that we didn't have to admit the spirit of God was within them and that they were good people. And that our stereotypes don't, don't, don't stand in the end. And the same thing is true when it comes to sectarianism in churches.

I grew up in a quite a sectarian movement. Um, it was the Baptist, we were nervous about the Southern Baptist, if you can believe that. Um,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: those

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: and uh, those liberals, they didn't take communion every Sunday. They had instruments. Churches of Christ didn't even have [01:01:00] instruments and oh my gosh, we can go on and on about that.

That's another world. But like the segregation of that, the pro, the, the prevention of relationships, deep relationships where you encounter people who actually look more like Jesus, have the spirit of God, they have humility in ways that you don't see with people that wanna talk all day about those six verses in the Bible.

That that must be enough. While there's thousands of verses about poverty and, and wealth and what, what Sodom is really about, right, as Ezekiel tells us, like we could get into each of those verses, but ultimately, like how do you deny the spirit of God that you see in an individual where you see the fruit of the spirit of these people that are trying to love their Christian neighbors in ways that they shouldn't have to, they, they shouldn't have to, uh, to walk back in and, and, and to, to seek forgiveness with people that have kicked them out of their jobs.

But they've found a space in our. Our faith community and a and a, a collective of, of churches that I, I'm a part of. That has been a great gift to me to imagine what could, what could be next. And [01:02:00] I know there's a lot of reason not to leave your faith community. There's a lot of people right now that are listening to the show that they're still in that megachurch, they're still in that space they grew up in and they're scared of what that might mean.

Maybe they're raising kids and they're wondering, man, if we don't have the children's ministry of the youth ministry, like how are they gonna find friendships? They're gonna be the kind of, there is hope on the other side. Speaking about hope, like we have, uh, five churches in the Dallas area. We live in Dallas, which is an area where this can happen in places, other places that may not be the case, but we have an area youth ministry with these small churches that can't host a youth ministry on their own.

But we have similar values and our kids are so protective about the people they invite into the space because they know that they're non-binary friends and they're gay friends and they're transgender friends. They need a safe space, they can show up. So just because they have a friend at school that may be Christian, that doesn't mean that's necessarily gonna be the space that that need to be because they are protective.

Of, uh, this inclusion that we try to host in our spaces to see our kids nurture. That is an incredible thing. So, yeah, my youngest kid may not know the books of the Bible and the song that I learned growing up in the [01:03:00] same way. I'll, I'll work on that one of these nights ahead. But, but what I do love is the relationships that have formed in the other side, the way that they're seeing it.

My, my kid, uh, one of my youngest daughter was going to, to summer camp at the university I went to school at in West Texas. And, uh, I mean, I'm fourth generation, they would be fifth generation. There's every assumption they would go there. My grandfather was the chairman of the board of that university. My dad was the chairman of the board of that university.

I, I'm not going to be for obvious reasons that we've talked about here, but, uh, you know, they go to summer camp and, and I'm more nervous of them to be at that summer camp than I am with this church that has half of our community being L-G-B-T-Q people. 'cause I know the spirit of Christ is gonna be found here and I'm, I'm just nervous of whether that'll be the case where they go.

And so, uh, man. I, I can't encourage enough curiosity, but also get outside of your circles, move outside of the fear of if I, if I'm not here, there may not be something for me.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: are people that are longing for the kind of safety that you can provide, and there's all kinds of curiosity and learning [01:04:00] you're gonna find, and you're gonna disrupt all those stereotypes that you learned growing up.

If you'll move into those new spaces. So whether it's a wine tour with Jeremy or it's a faith community you've never stepped into, do it. Like take that step this month. This is Black History Month. I hear black churches say, come join us. I know that can be nervous. You may think you're intruding on other space, but that's one of the best things you can do in this race conversation.

Put yourself under a leader of color.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Find out the fact that they have incredible, uh, preachers that are speaking to this moment in a way that many white churches I see are not, um, I, I'm preaching right now in more black churches than I'm white churches, partly because I've been leading in this conversation.

I've never been more received. I've never been more welcomed and thanked for being willing to enter in and to tell the truth. And that seat's there for you as well. Maybe it's just this month, maybe, uh, or, or in a month to come, you're gonna go and, and visit a church. I mean, they may be wary about you, wondering what you're there for, but doesn't take long for them to bring that wall down if you're truly curious and humble.

Uh, so yeah, I, I couldn't, uh, encourage more just that breaking of stereotypes and moving [01:05:00] outside of the, the spaces that you may feel safe in that are really not safe for so many people, and may not be for you and your kids as much as you think they are.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Mm. That's a word today, Colin, man. That's good. All right, we're gonna transition now. We're gonna do our, our rapid fire questions. We'll see how your answers compare with everybody else. We will start with some wine questions. If I had to ask you best glass of wine you've ever had in your life, is there a story that comes to your mind?

What was the bottle? What was the setting? Who are you with? What's the best glass of wine you've ever had?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah, it took some t some time to get to. I, I was in a Te Toler family growing up. Like this was not my world. And gratefully that is a different story today, but I, I can tell you exactly where it was. It was in North northern California. It was a resort setting. It was at Cor Deval Resort, just south of San Jose.

We were with some friends that we developed close relationship with. And we got a bottle of wine on the patio. Um, that night we had just deep conversation, [01:06:00] beautiful setting. We weren't in Texas, which meant it's of course it's more beautiful than where we are with the concrete jungle all around us. I don't know why we're there.

Every time we traveled we're like, why, why do we live here? We have a calling here, I guess. But I remember that it was a, it was a Kamus, Cabernet sa Sauvignon Sauvignon 2020 bottle. Every time I go to a restaurant today, it's more expensive than I wanna buy every time I'm there. But if it's an anniversary, if it's a, well, maybe I'm at a grocery store and I find I find that bottle for a little less than I might find at a restaurant, I'm gonna pick up that bottle.

It has meaning every time we open that cork, my wife and me, these friends, uh, just because of what that conversation became, because we had a bottle of wine, uh, a great meal with us. I'll never forget, uh, that moment. That's my favorite bottle of wine. It's what I always go back to, even though there's probably greater bottles out there.

I need to get out. I need to go on one of your tours and learn a lot more than what I have. But, uh, yeah, that's, that's the bottle I look for anytime I. I get my hands on it because it takes me back to that moment.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Mm. Love that. right. Which member of church [01:07:00] history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you? And which member of church history would you not trust?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Oh man. So many places you can go, right? Uh, so, uh, my wife and I, we had our 20th anniversary, uh, a couple years ago when the Olympics was in Paris. It was a trip of a lifetime. We got to go, we got to go to the women's gymnastics final on that trip. But part of that trip we got to do a champagne wine tour.

Uh, and the only place that really should be calling it champagne, I find out, uh, right in that area of France that we were in. And so we went on this wine tour and we got to tour this church. And I had no idea the history of it, but Dom Perignon, I found out the history. I saw the grave of where he was buried.

This is this French fryer, right? Who was part of making wine better in France. Alright? This is, uh, lighter wine. This is sparkling wine. This is champagne, but. Uh, Dom Perignons my guy. Right? Uh, I'll, I'll never forget that trip, but I remember,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: pick.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: the picture. I remember he's a Benedictine and what, what could be better than [01:08:00] that?

Revolutionized wine making. So he's the guy that I'm gonna pi I'm gonna pick in church history

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: pick, Colin.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: for it. Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Who do you not, who do you not trust to pick out a bottle for you?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: All right. So I've, I've been, I've been getting into this wine game a little bit more. Uh, we're in a wine club for the first time, so I've been trying to kind of understand better the history. And so I obviously, one of the things that stood in the way, probably shaped the movement I grew up in this tee tolling movement was people trying to get rid of, uh, alcohol all together in the early 20th century.

And there's a woman that, uh, I, I, I need to educate your crowd about. Her name is Carrie Nation. Uh, some called her Mother Nation, uh, for the charity and religious work she did. So she was definitely a person of faith. But her nickname was Hatchet Granny. I love this story. So during the, during the American Temperance Movement, she attacked alcohol serving establishments with a hatchet.

Like I think I grew up with this woman in my church, right? And, uh, her fight against alcohol went from [01:09:00] simple protest to greeting bartenders with pointed remarks like, good morning destroyer of men's souls. Like that is great. I, I know this woman with a hatchet in her hand. She would smash, uh, liquor bottles in, in saloons, no fear.

Um, so anyway, in fact, she described herself this way. She said, A bulldog running along at the feet of Jesus barking at what he doesn't like. That's how she wanted to be described. So, uh, yeah, hatchet Granny,

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: I.

mean, these might be two of the best answers we've ever got to this question, Colin. So you've done your research. an incredible, that's, that's remarkable. Well done, well done on that. Um, okay. What's something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: All right, so we haven't gotten to this conversation at all today, so it may take a little setup, but, um, last year I did a, a fellowship and public witness. And so that's the question of like, how do we bring our faith to the public square? Part of my background [01:10:00] was lead pastor. I also worked in the Texas State House for a state representative, uh, as a communications director two sessions ago, which talk about a shit storm.

That was something, but it was in blending those two worlds and trying to bring that together that I realized, like, I have a history that's really interesting in the, in the movement. I grew up in the seminary. I was trained in, there's a history that I actually, for 12 years, I did not vote, not out of apathy, but out of like a theological conviction.

Like it was kind of that apolitical, almost more anabaptist kind of view of things. There's a guy named David Lipscomb in my faith tradition that after the Civil War, he, he wrote a book called Civil Government. He said, look, Christians shouldn't serve in the military. They shouldn't. Be a magistrate or work in political office, they shouldn't even vote because that's actually wrong.

And so I think it was actually my, my, uh, my, he, it's easy as a preacher to do that, right? Like I, I mean, you have to explain why you didn't vote. 'cause that's like something you're supposed to do, of course, as a preacher and a Christian or whatever. But like, I was at least able to be that neutral space, which Jamar Tyse has been so helpful to say, Hey, [01:11:00] like, justice takes a side.

That's been a learning for me because in ministry I was so, I was taught so often to like never take a side right? To, to keep it out of the pulpit. But for me, I didn't vote for 12 years outta a theological conviction. It was after the 2016 election that I decided I, I gotta change this. And it was my friends of color that were so gracious to say, you know, Colin, I wonder if maybe you think you've washed your hands and you're clean of this because you don't vote.

Like you're not, you have a history. You need to dig into that seminary that taught you all this like. There's some privilege that probably leads 'em to think that the luxury of being able to just opt out of this system is gonna be to their benefit, but they can act like they're not, their, their hands aren't dirty.

So I got my hands dirty in 2017 and ended up in the State House in a way I never imagined. So I'm still sorting through that journey of like, how do you engage politically in a way that's not helpful from partisanship? And, and that's not helpful in churches, but the kingdom of God, like the message of Jesus is a political vision, right?

It is an alternative vision to the ways of the world, uh, the, the, the titles that Jesus bore, you know, of Lord and Savior and, and you [01:12:00] on ga own the gospel. These are all political terms, ecclesia, right? And so, uh, I, I'm, I'm moving more into that world while trying not to be taken hostage by the empire that we live within.

That takes some moral resistance. But that has changed completely over the last decade for me was I didn't vote in the 2016 election and then I worked in the Texas State House for a state representative. So yeah, it's been a journey. Uh, but, uh, but I'm not where I was.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: man, so many, so many people can connect on different parts of that journey of yours. So I think that's, that's super interesting. do you see as like the main issue facing Christianity in America today?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Yeah, where do you start? There's so many different ways we could go. Um, so there was a shooting that took place in El Paso, Texas. I was on a pilgrimage recently to El Paso Juarez. Incredible journey. Getting to talk with migrants who were stuck on the other side of the border. But there was a shooting that took place at the, uh, Walmart in El Paso.

It's actually the, uh, [01:13:00] most casualties of any mass shooting in, in modern American history. And the guy who perpetrated that shooting left from my neighborhood in Allen, Texas. And uh, he didn't wanna do it locally 'cause he thought he might know someone and harm someone. So he goes to a place. He was all caught up in the great replacement theory, right?

This theory that whites are being replaced and votes are being changed as a result of all these immigrants that are being invited in. Uh, we have this fear of scarcity, um, as white people that's all around us, and it's shaping us in some very violent ways. It's shaping us in some very, uh, unc Christian ways, uh, to respond in this cultural moment.

Uh, a lot of it has to do with masculinity as well. Like, I've got a son that I know if he gets in the wrong corner of the internet, it can be pretty quick of him getting radicalized in ways that we never would've imagined. And so trying to raise kids in this moment, trying to imagine the, the, the partners that our, our kids might have down the road and what they're being shaped by right now.

And so I, I've got a question about like young men right now. I talked about tiki torches earlier in Charlottesville. Um, how this isn't just changing. This is not just a [01:14:00] generational problem of like, we're a generation away of, uh, Jim Crow, people dying, and then we'll be in this, this haven. We know that that's not where things are necessarily going.

And so trying to solve that question of, uh, white Christianity of masculinity and how that works itself out, we're working on that in our ministry. I don't have all the answers right now, but I, I think it's a problem that needs to be solved. Right now. Texas has moved over that. Majority minority divide.

And so we are white people are no longer the majority in our state. Um, that's often the case in, in cities in ways that isn't in rural places, but that's not the case all over the country. And it's coming like 2050 I think is the date that we, or 20, 40, 50, somewhere in that range. We're gonna see that flip.

And uh, we know what happens when there's progress, right? We saw it in 2020. There's that, uh, backlash or that whitelash, some have called it. Uh, and we're seeing that right now. There's a fear, there's a scarcity, there's a threat. Um, and great replacement theory is creating some very violent moments. Right now.

It's happened in our own county as a result of that theory itself. And so, uh, as much as there's spaces I don't want to go into, there are places that I have access to. That's [01:15:00] what my friends of color said to me in 2020 was, okay, what's my work to do as a white guy in this work of racial justice? They said, as much as you want to come down here in the city of Dallas and do your work, please join us when the moment's right.

Uh, don't feel like you have to take the microphone from us 'cause we've been here a lot longer than you have.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Yeah.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: And I've learned, I'm learning to do that. But, uh. They said, don't leave the boardrooms you're in. Don't leave the country club spaces that you might have access to. Don't leave the elder rooms that you're in.

And it took a moment for me to kind of step outta that because I, I was bringing only anger and frustration into those spaces. But three, four years later, I feel like I'm at a place where I can enter back into those spaces. And so that's what I'm being asked to do by, um, by others that I'm in close proximity and relationship with.

And so I wanna lean into those problems. Uh, what does it look like for us to create a healthier alterna alternative as we increase in minority status and maybe lose some of the privileges that have been there. But, uh, it is not persecution when you lose privilege.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Uh, but sometimes we feel like it is.

And so, uh, I, Richard Rohr, I'm, I'm going back to some of his work early on and kind of a [01:16:00] wild man, uh, some of Adam's return, some of those books about, and I'm wondering what would it look like to create the kind of, uh, retreat experience for young men where dads could bring their sons along and, uh, and, and delve into some of the five things that he leans into?

Uh, you know, it's not about you, you're gonna die. Some of those, those values, I'm, I'm just curious about what that would look like to kind of create that kind of space. And as much as the dads may be bringing in the sons, I think we need the dads to go through that just as much. So that's, that's one of the problems I'm trying to solve.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm. That's good. What's something blowing your mind right now? What are you learning?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: I blowing my mind. You ask the greatest questions, they open up all kinds of things. Right?

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Oh, shucks. Thanks.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: what's blowing my mind? I today it is, uh, it's the video that was shared by a president. Like, and every day it's something new. Right. But, and I spoke earlier to the Hutchins Detention Center. Lemme just say a word more about that.

Like 80,000 beds is the goal [01:17:00] that Homeland Security has said they need to increase right now in Dallas. Like, what is holding up more detentions of our immigrant neighbors as they change the rules. They're coming for their green card appointments that they've been coming to for years. We've changed the rules.

It's, it's. It's like in Texas, like it wasn't, the people crossed the border initially, the border crossed them. Right. That's the history we're trying to tell in the Latin American story. Same thing's true when it comes to immigrants and asylum seekers. Like yeah, of course there are people that have, have come here in ways they shouldn't have.

Uh, or were against the law against civil problems, not criminal problems. If we look at, uh, the, the letter of the law, but so many of these people that are here and they're doing things the right way as we've termed it, we want to talk about criminality. 62% of the people that have been detained at the Dallas Field Office have no criminal record in their background.

That is not the bill of goods. We were sold that many of, uh, of the people we know voted for. Right. That information has to get out there, but there's a 9,500, uh, person detention center that is waiting to be, you know, built here in Dallas. [01:18:00] Uh, that blows my mind. That, and, and even those in in the administration have said we want to do this.

Like Amazon has done packages like that is the level of dehumanization we want to. We wanna be able to move people there. And I'll tell you right next to that property that we found out where that is million square foot property that we, they probably have already bought. They're on their way to it.

They're able to hide this in ways that other other groups can't because they're, uh, department of Defense and this sort of thing. Uh, there's a railroad track, uh, that goes to Mexico and it's cargo only. But our wonder is, is that what the plan is? Right? Just as the concentration camps and putting people on trains to go to the, to their death, like, is that the deportation plan that may be ahead of us?

And so the bottleneck right now for them in terms of detaining people is they don't have enough beds or spaces. Um, we in Dallas are trying to figure out a way that that doesn't happen here on our watch. And there are other cities that are doing the same thing. So my mind's blown by the level of dehumanization, the silence of churches in this moment.

Uh, but we need solutions. We need people that are willing to be courageous and step into it. And so we're trying to do that. And, and I'm blown away by [01:19:00] the people who are doing that, right? I mean, some of these Latina organizers, they've admitted that they're, they're dreamers. They're people that are at risk more than the white clergy that are showing up.

But they're willing to do that. And if they're willing to do that, who are we to say that we live too far from it, or maybe we're at risk. Uh, this is the time to step up and, uh, and I'm being blown away by the people who are doing that right now. They're going to trainings that are being activated. It gives me hope to see that.

So that's, that's the good part that's blowing my mind in the midst of the videos that are blowing my mind in a completely different way.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm. I love that. What's something you're excited about right now?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: I am excited about the Latin American class that we're launching right now. Dr. Romero is a gift, uh, to, to help us kind of construct this, but right now it was in 2020 that we launched these, uh, classes, the beginner's guided conversations about race, and the second class was when COVID came down. The third class was when George Floyd was murdered.

There were 19 classes of white Christians that came around the dinner table for, from Dave and Shelley, our executive directors. Um, and, uh, [01:20:00] we're just imagining, I mean, the timing's just right for all that we've developed over this last year for churches. And I'm thinking about churches that have Hispanic congregations that they have not thought through as safety plan for what they're gonna do if I shows up at their doorstep.

They have to be thinking through that. I'm thinking about the microaggressions they experience on an everyday basis when they're setting up church for third service, while the white people are leaving from first and second in churches. Like it is incumbent on us if we're gonna have, uh, minority churches, immigrant churches that are meeting in our spaces or in our communities to find.

What we can do to make sure they're supported. I, I had a conversation just this last week, uh, with a, a Muslim that serves on a board in our community, a woman that I've gotten to know well, that's a friend, and she's saying, look for us to ask the question about how we can make sure that our undocumented, uh, you know, um, members may, uh, maybe safe and how they can be safe in our building To ask that question to law enforcement is to put a target on our back.

And, uh, that is something that white people can do. We can ask those questions without putting a target on others' backs and relay that information and stand in solidarity. And so, I'm excited about this class. I'm excited [01:21:00] for those who are gonna take it. It, it'll be a hard, hard lift for, for us to walk through it, but it just seems like the perfect timing for churches that are leaning into this conversation, especially in Texas and places like where you're living, uh, Jeremy in the South, where we're dealing with this border conversation that's been with us forever.

We need new solutions and I'm excited about the possibility of, of churches and Christians that'll be willing to lean into the conversation with us.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Hmm. That's so good. All right, Colin, we've talked about a lot of things today. I'm, I'm amazed how much we've actually got to, there anything we haven't talked about that you're like, look, we can't close this episode till I get this in?

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: All right. So I, I don't have a book to promote. Right. But you do. And so I, I wanted to offer you this short window to say like, why, why should I be interested in your book, Jeremy? Like when I could turn around and interview you. Like what, what, what is it that, that you would want to share that may not be your elevator pitch, but something interesting that you're thinking about that's gonna get out there, that you can't wait to get out there?

I wanna know, 'cause I'm [01:22:00] ready to buy this book and get the conversation started in my community.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Wow. Well thank you for that. Uh, so I got a text yesterday from someone who's on our launch team and read an early copy of the book and he said to me, I'm paraphrasing, but basically. He said, most books in this nature, like kind of the deconstruction kind of conversation, um, end with the i the conclusion of just burn it all down.

Right? He's like, there's very few voices like yours that are offering a different way forward, and I thought that was such a cool, like from his point, like that was what his takeaway was. Right? And one of the weird things about creating anything right, is you make, you make something that you, you believe in it, you know what it means to you, but you have no idea what it will mean to other people.

And when other people engage in it, what is their reaction? What does it do to them? a book is certainly like that, right? It's like you, you put it into it, but I have no idea what this book does to other, so when, when other people say, wow, this is giving me hope for a space I didn't have [01:23:00] hope for. That was really cool to me of like, I think we. you know, the, the idea is narrow framing where you say, this is my only option, or this is my only option. You know, it's like either burn it all down or go with the church as it is. I don't think those are our two options. I think we need to have a different imagination of. How we have these kind of conversations, how we make space for these things, how we bring the best of all these different expressions of church today, both within the institutional church, within the deconstructing community, and, and create something new moving forward. Um, that's what I'm really excited about.

And so I hope that this book, you know, we've, we've been talking about hope in this conversation. My hope is that this gives people a little bit of, of that sense of like, oh, there's hard stuff to do and we have the ability to do it, and the ability isn't because we won't talk about it. This is why I love so much of your, what you're working on it.

The solution is not bearing our head in the sound and hoping it goes away. The solution is leaning into it, [01:24:00] embracing it, and figuring out a new way forward. And so that's really what I, I hope the book is for people of like, Hey, you can navigate all these conversations and still love Jesus and still have community and still figure out what does it mean?

You know, how, how do you better love your neighbor? Like all of it's still possible. I just think we need a better imagination for it.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: I love it. I'm living that possibility like. It is impossible. There is a community that can be developed and there are people that are waiting on you to probably gather people around your table. And so can't wait to read, uh, the book. Can't wait for our community to get, to engage the ideas you're bringing and, uh, I'm glad you'll have a better answer for me about hope.

It sounds like you've got something hopeful on the horizon.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Well, I've depleted all mine into the book. That's why I needed you to give me some more today. 'cause I, I emptied it all into the book. That's all I had. Well, Colin, dude, this has been just such a, a good conversation. Uh, I'm, I'm grateful to have known you over the years to have walked vicariously through some of your journey with you. You are someone who [01:25:00] embodies what it means to have values and then to live those values, right? Even when it costs you, even when you know this is gonna be painful. I, I, I, you know, I met you in a season when you were the lead passer and you knew something really difficult was coming and you did it. you walk that road and to even have, you know, heard you talk about the four jobs and the four different years and how the turmoil of that, like so many people, especially listeners of this podcast, know that feeling of, I mean, that's in the last six years for me of like, what, what the hell am I doing now?

Right. But you have just modeled it. You've been faithful in it. And to see you thrive today, to see you doing what you're doing today and the conversations you're having, man, it is so encouraging to be a part of it. And I am cheering for you. I've been cheering for you. I am, uh, I'm team Colin for sure. And I just wanna say thank you for the time to come on the, the episode today and sharing what I think are some really profound, beautiful [01:26:00] insights that a lot of people are gonna be blessed by.

squadcaster-8ef7_1_02-06-2026_120600: Well, thanks for having the same courage, uh, being a trailblazer ahead, and you've been such a, a gift to me on my journey and every episode I look forward to finding out, uh, who it is you're introducing us to next in the book. And, uh, there's a community that's developing and so we need to get together in person.

Let's figure out a way to do it on the road.

jeremy_1_02-06-2026_110600: Let's do it. On that note, friends, hopefully you've got a ton from this conversation, lots to think about and process and do it with a great glass of wine and it makes everything better. But we'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray.

Faith and the Public Square (with Collin Packer) | Ep. 67

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