Where Satire Meets Spirituality (with Stuart Delony) | Ep. 68
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Here's what Caleb Campbell, pastor and author of Disarming Leviathan had to say about my upcoming book, the Edge of the Inside Releasing March 31st. The edge of the inside is an honest grace-filled exploration of what happens when the center no longer holds and following. Jesus leads us into unfamiliar territory.
It's part memoir, part Prophetic Call and part Survival Guide for anyone who has loved the church enough to tell it the truth. If you'd like to read a copy before it comes out, we'd love to have you join our book launch team. You can find out more at edge of the inside.com or at the link in the show notes.
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet in Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the face.
And today we've got a whole bunch of satire for you, bunch of humor. So if you're ready to laugh at some serious stuff, then this is the episode for you. We've got Stewart Delony today. He is a former pastor who left the [00:01:00] church, but still takes the teachings of Jesus seriously.
He hosts Narky Faith critiquing American Christianity from the Fringe, which is why he and I got along immediately. He is the author of the Tribulation Survival Guide, which is a deadpan satire of end times theology. And fear-based faith, and he basically is teaching people how to laugh at bad theology and look more like Jesus.
So I think this is a beautiful conversation. This is episode 68 where satire meets spirituality. I.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would've no idea. Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an [00:02:00] environment.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at Universal Spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
How if I get a little loopy. It's your follow up. You told me to drink it. I just show up. I'll also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way You're doing it in the. Beautiful positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is [00:03:00] fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that. Very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.
You had me with herbaceous notes. I want you to know I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy, by the way, drinking this peanut regio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. It makes sense now.
Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast. I think [00:04:00] you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: He considers himself a former pastor, but a current troublemaker, which means he will fit in just fine on this podcast. Welcome to Cabernet and Prey, Stewart Delony.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Jeremy, thanks for having me on here. Uh, it's always fun to have a reason to drink in the middle of the afternoon with somebody.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: You know, I'm a lot of things, but I can, I can be that for people. I can be your reason to drink in the afternoon.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: you are. You are our alcoholic Sherpa that you're gonna carry us through this and all of it. It's great because it's not alcoholism if we're doing it at the same time.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Correct.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: don't have to be in the room together. You just have to be connected somehow. And so listeners, if you are also drinking with us, you we're all together. So it, it counts as community when you do it while you're listening to a podcast of guys drinking.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: like when two or three gathered a drink in my name, people get drunk? I don't know. Is that how it, yeah. [00:05:00]
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I like that translation. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, I. don't know which version that is, but I'll, I'll roll with that. That's, good. I like that.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: a new king James.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, alright. On that note, let's talk about what we're drinking then, since we, we clearly are getting into it. I'm bringing out something that I absolutely love for today's episode.
I'm going to my beloved place. This is a 2022 Pinot Noir from the Willamette Valley in Oregon, which is, uh, is where my heart is when it comes to wine. This is a 2022 Helens from STO Family Estate, which is the first place I ever became a wine member of, and I'm still a wine member of, and they are fantastic.
And this is named after, uh, the owner's aunt. And he has a number of, like his really nice wines. And I always remember thinking like when you're gonna name a wine after a family member. There's a lot of pressure there. Like you really have to choose wisely because so much of you know, of, of you, of how you view [00:06:00] them right, is gonna come out.
And so this is his aunt. He's got one for his wife. I think he's got one for his mom. Um, but this is a fantastic wine. I I think that this line that he makes has got like a, an elegant note to a little spice note to it, which if you have like a pinot noir from California, I don't always get those notes in those.
But in the Oregon ones I do, and especially in a nice one. So Stuart, I'm having a delightful glass. I'm thoroughly enjoying this. Tell us, what do you got going today?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Well, let's see. I'm drinking, uh, I think this is, uh, app named after someone's mother-in-law. Um, uh, no, uh, no. This is, uh, golden Gate Cellars. Um, apparently, I guess in the picture at the bottom of the Golden Gate Bridge, there's, I think they, they make wine is what this is implying.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Okay.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: is, uh, this is at 2023, uh, California Cabernet Sauvignon.
Taste a, like I'm getting notes of wine. As I'm drinking this, um, no, I think it's more like blackberry a little bit, um, and some woody notes. It's, it's, it's decent. It goes down, it [00:07:00] goes down smooth.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Now would you say you're a wine guy or No? This is like a, you don't do it a ton.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I don't do wine a ton, um, but I do enjoy it. Um, if I am a wine guy, I'm more of like a Merlott or a Cabernet anyways.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Okay,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: yeah, yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: nice. Alright, well let, let's get a little bit of your backstory so listeners can kind of figure out who are we talking to. One of the questions I love to begin with is think about the last 10 years of your life, of your journey with God. And I just love in that window, how would you say your faith has changed in the last 10 years so we can kind of see what this looked like for you.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah, that's a great question. I like that. Um. The last 10 years were probably my, uh, were the exit ramp for ministry for me, uh, would be the beginning of that 10 year period.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Okay.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: uh, was was kind of walking towards an exit ramp in ministry. Um, had been, we had my wife and kids and I had lived on the west coast for a number of years.
Uh, we lived north of Seattle and about 10 years ago, uh, I ended up [00:08:00] moving to Chapel Hill, North Carolina, back to the, to the East coast. Um, I'm originally from Atlanta, but we came back here to do some non-conventional church planting, you could kind of call it that. where we were just meeting people in a bar to have spiritual conversations, uh, that people weren't normally having.
So that kind of brought us to this area, but through that process. Uh, I had already kind of been it through walking through deconstruction anyways. but I feel like a lot of that being able to do and share community space with folks at different faiths rubbing different types of shoulders, really began to like open me up even more to realizing that a lot of the church structures that I grew up in were just absolutely horseshit.
And I'm hoping we can say that on the show,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: You can't, you can use whatever, whatever words you need to use to describe.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Okay. Good.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Your journey.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: so I think, I think some of it was just un knitting from a lot of that and probably how that journey has also changed me. Like, I think I deconstructed and then, and then went through deconstructing myself and therapy, um, um,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: through a process of period after that, and [00:09:00] then kind of arrive where I'm at.
Um, let's see. Yeah, the past 10 years is being an an empty nester now. Um, it's new to me as well, uh, pushing all the kids off and really kind of trying to see what does faith look like to me, uh, in this crazy, insane world with politics and Christian nationalism and all of that other jazz that we're going through.
So, I don't know if that answered really your question, but that was kind of like a, uh, I felt like running down a hill very quickly and
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Okay. So you have this phrase on your website,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: you say, after years in ministry, I realized the system cared more about power than people, so I traded the pulpit for a microphone.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I'd love to hear that's, that's very similar to my journey, very similar to the journey of a lot of people who probably listening to this.
What was it for you? What was the realization that you started realizing, oh, this isn't what I thought it was. What did that look like?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I think it was a long time process, uh, walking through ministry. I think I, I was one of the [00:10:00] weirdos that like, took Jesus very seriously and very literally kinda growing up in the church. Not like a WJD kid, or not a kid that really went to youth group. I, I, that was, that wasn't my bag, but I, I, but the, the core teachings really resonated with me.
And, and that's the kind of thing that's continued on, whether it's me stepping away from the pulpit, uh, because I felt like there was too much, uh, architecture, um, and hierarchy surrounding doing at the actual work of Christ, um, to where most of Sunday mornings and everything else and churches were not doing anything that looked like what Jesus is calling us to do.
It was
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: performance. Uh, and then picking up the microphone was being able to, it was part of us moving here. Um, and part of us doing kind of a non-traditional church plant. I I actually started on local radio, doing a show where we would talk about things and uh, that kind of morphed and evolved and changed I think around 2015.
Uh, I started digging a lot more in politically 'cause I was kind of seeing the way the sands of, of, of change were, were happening. And, uh, [00:11:00] yeah, and then really dialing in on just the hypocrisy of Christianity now when it comes to politics, uh, is really kind of what launched into the podcast and, uh, and, and really influences a lot of my writing.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: How have you noticed? 'cause there's a huge, there's a huge difference here and you're alluding to it, but talk about how have you noticed the difference of what you can say from the pulpit versus what you can say on a radio show or in a bar? I.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Well, if when I was doing it on a radio show, if I would swear, I would have to make sure I had to bleep it. Um, so that, so if you're going straight for that, that's, that's more, it's more arduous if you're having edit it out later. Um, no, I think that speaking in church, you kind of know how to toe the company line to some degree the denominational line, you know, uh, when you're, when you're preaching, you know, kind of where the boundaries are, um, you know, kind of where you're supposed to go and what will get you into trouble.
Now, uh, I never learned that very well. What gets me into trouble, and so that's kind of been throughout a lot of my ministry career is my [00:12:00] mouth and just me trying to be truthful got me into trouble with it. Um, and so, yeah, so I think there's more of careful talk. and then the radio, I think you're doing stuff more.
The radio to podcasting was more just speaking exactly from where I'm at, what I'm experiencing, what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, uh, and not having to have it go through all of those like, uh, denominational filters where you're just like, am I gonna get in trouble? Or, or what, hell am I gonna cause right now for being honest?
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
I have found, you know, I still speak regularly in churches and I, I still enjoy that. And I found, you know, you can, you can meet a lot of people there. That is still a space that can be transformative for a lot of people. But there is absolutely expectations. There are guardrails, there are, you know, the rules sometimes spoken, sometimes just implied.
And you do kind of learn or like, here's, here's what you can and can't say. And then, you know, for me, like with the podcast, you, you can go wherever it needs to go, you know? And so there is no expectation, there is no, well, it has to fit [00:13:00] this even from like a structure, like, well, how long does it have to be?
Like, it can be whatever it needs to be.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: You know, you ask, are we allowed to say that in the like, Yeah.
you can say whatever. I mean, it's like, it's just a different, um, different mode, right. Of communicating and even like, you know, a lot of stuff we do like in the wine scene. People lower their guard, they lower their expectation if they walk into a wine bar or the, a wine tasting.
And so I have found a lot of times it's hard to have that same level of authentic conversations that, that we want to have in some of the spaces we might want to have. Um, and so I feel like it's like a, a constant battle to create a bridge to those spaces.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah, and you're right. And I think it's also just about knowing your audience too. Uh, you know, 'cause half the stuff, if I was to talk about what I talk about in my podcast, it would not really fit, uh, a Sunday morning church environment. Um, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't speak to what they are coming to hear.
Uh, it wouldn't really edify them in, in what they're seeking. But I feel like, you know, able to have a different audience and a kind of a different mission online, I think it just [00:14:00] frees you to really go into wherever what niche
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: you feel called into.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Uh, so, so much of what you do and, and if anyone reads your book, this is blatantly obvious from like page one. Uh, so much of what you do is based around humor and you, you just have a heavy dose of humor into everything. I'd love to get your take on what do you see as the role of humor when it comes to our spirituality?
'cause these are, a lot of times humor is something that people don't think belongs or they're surprised, like, whoa, why are you making a joke about it? And you have just leaned in, embraced it. That's become something you're very comfortable with. How do you see the role of humor with spirituality?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Um, I, I, for me, a lot of it, the humor comes into the role of, of healing, um, in, in spirituality. A lot of just the book that we're talking about, the Tribulation Survival Guide, uh, that I've written, it's, it's, it's a deadpan, uh, manual for those that have like, been like, oh fuck, the rapture. What do I do now?
And so [00:15:00] it's just kind of like that, that mentality of like, oh, this is a real manual for what happens if you miss the rapture and I. In that context, and this is what I've heard from people. It's, it's, I'm really just making fun of a lot of that trauma culture that folks, uh, from evangelical circles grew up in about worrying about the end times, about satanic panics and all that other kind of thing.
And so humor kind of gives you the ability to slide in, um, and kind of like a Trojan horse.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: you can kind of go into places where people aren't expecting it and you can say things poignant and you can kind of just sneak it in when they're not expecting it in those different places. Because I've heard a lot of people to be like, yes, it was, it was helpful.
This was, this helped me to heal from a lot of my end times trauma just by being able to laugh at the absurdity of it, because that, that is, I mean, this book is satire and this is, it's written to necessarily just tease out the logical conclusions of really bad theology that we've been given to saying like, okay, yes, if this makes sense, then this will make sense if you run at it and tease it out.
And, and I think it's, it's, it's a way for people to be able [00:16:00] to also step back. From the systems, look at them differently and learn that, oh yeah, this is absurd, this is stupid, this is bad. Um, and, and yeah. So I think some of it's necessary. I think laughter is necessary for processing.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I, I totally think so, and I think Jesus used it far more than we give him credit for.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: yes, yes.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: but
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: was very hyperbolic when he talked,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: yes.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: and it doesn't always translate into how we, we hear it like preached.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: And just, Yeah.
The way we present him, you know, like even when a preacher reads something with like a somber tone, I'm like, I don't think Jesus said it like that. I think it was a joke. You know what I mean?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I, I've had times where I'm like, no, don't read it like that. Like that's not how, that's, you know, that's not how I've always envisioned it, so,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: he's winding up the Pharisees on purpose in this
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: right.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: here. This isn't, he wasn't just like waxing like, oh, later this will be like, written in scripture and put in stained glass. No, no,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: He's, he's going after people. He's going after, um, systems of power too. And that's, humor can do that.
Humor and satire can go after systems of power and name things. Um. [00:17:00] Main things that need to be said, said.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: So you have brought humor to the tribulation to end times, to something that, as you mentioned, people have a lot of fear on and a lot of really bizarre fear. And I think that is what your book does such a good job at, at poking fun, you know? And you're like, oh Yeah.
that is, that is the thing I've heard.
Or you know, there's so many times I'd be reading a section, I'm like, oh man, I remember being told that. Or I remember, you know, people really being afraid of that. What is it about that subject, about the end times, about the tribulation? What made you wanna write that book? They're like, all right, this is where we need the humor now in this moment.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Okay. Uh, this, uh, it, it, uh, a, I wrote this book Avoiding editing another book I had done. Uh,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Which are the best kind of books when you're avoiding another book?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: um, no, but it was good. It's good, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, but it was necessary for me to do that because I feel like the other book I was dragging my feet on was. Uh, it was intellectually correct, but it wasn't in my soul enough
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm. [00:18:00]
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: of correct to where I've gotten up here, but I haven't like, gotten it here.
And so I think there was a reason I was dragging my feet. Um, this, this, it really goes back to, uh, uh, I, I've, I've, I've been a minister for and many number of years. I've, I have been lifetime ordained and then also been defrocked. Uh, but it,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Oh.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: it, oh, yes. Uh, which we can get to that story, but it reminded me of during my original Frocking, um, when I was actually becoming, um, a pastor and having to sit in front of a board of people who had asked me questions about where's my theology?
What do I believe about this? Well, it's, it's, it's a firing squad to some degree,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Mm-hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I, I was apparently just, I'm a glutton for punishment. And they had asked me, it was, it was one of those softball questions I can ask. Well, is there anything that you disagree with in the Bible? Anything that, you know, you wish, uh, wasn't there or anything like that where I should have probably just said, no, it's an errant.
Um,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: believe it all. it's all good.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yes, it's great. Uh, and I was like, yeah, yeah. And they're like, oh, what? I was like, I could do away with the entire book of [00:19:00] revelation.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Oh, wow. You went for it.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: like, and got very angry very quickly. But then you can get to a point where you can actually argue them into a place where they're like, I, I, I don't necessarily disagree with them.
'cause my answer was, I have, I grew up like around Southern Baptist churches and in conservative culture, and I, I knew of, like in the church I grew up in, they had a, it was a Sunday school class on the book of Revelation. that that Sunday school class never ended. so they were constantly
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: It's just per until that tribulation.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: So it that, but that was it. 'cause it'd be some new thing they could talk about or some other thing to talk about with it. And, and
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: that's incredible.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I've seen that as a book that has distracted so much. Uh, thanks. John Nelson Darby from, like, from, from really the work of the gospel because it teaches people that escape is an answer.
that we don't have to be dialed in here. It teaches us to like, look for the signs or naval gaze, but don't look to our neighbors. it's, it's 'cause it's fun. It's [00:20:00] X-Files, it's fantasy, it's
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: sci-fi uh, depending on how you read it, uh, if you read it incorrectly or you could see it as something that's against Empire.
But don't usually see Revelation as a book that's calling out Empire. They see it as something else that's, that's really telling us we can escape this place. Whereas I feel like the call of Christ is, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're very much here. You very much need to be working here and, and, and and it's not about this.
Yeah. It's not about escapism. And so yeah, I went for it because I feel like, yeah, this is, this is derailed Christianity so much.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I love that you, you answered that question with an entire book of the Bible, rather than just giving like one subject you
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: verse
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: yeah,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I don't
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: well, this one. section. No, you, you, you took on an entire book of the Bible.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: That's that. I feel, I feel like that's, that says something about you that, that I like.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Well, good. It was eventually something that they didn't like, but that had more to do
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Well, but again, [00:21:00] I think.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: community.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Most of us have that story. Uh, I, I got in trouble when I was getting ordained, uh, about, um, open, open theology and, uh, got into open theism a little bit and my, I was assigned an a, a, a small group of elders and I, I went, we had to duke it out for a while. And then finally, like one of 'em, you know, has had to like, agree to disagree.
'cause I kept showing him verses that he had no explanation for. And I'm like, I can't believe what you're saying because of these verses, you know?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: so I, I, I love that story. Before we get, I do want to talk about some parts of the book, but
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: now I'm intrigued. Give us the Defrocking story. What happened?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: This is, this is even less sexy. Uh, this is not even, it's not even, it's not even exciting. And it, it's, it's not like I, you know, I wish it was one of those moments where you're able to throw something down at a table and, ah, um, this is like, so I, I, uh, around COVID, um, which, which is when kind of our like bar ministry or what we were kind of doing in this area kind of died.[00:22:00]
And, and it was a time where I was like, okay, I feel like ministry is changing. Um, we're gonna quit doing what we're doing here, trying to figure out what's next and. So I just kept doing the podcast and I got called, it was probably like two years ago, not called, I got an email from some folks in the denomination who I haven't hung out with, I haven't really done anything with,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Which, which denomination are we talking about?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: this is Churches of God, uh, general conference.
This is
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Okay.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Speaking of Tongues, churches of God. This is more, uh, Northeastern, folks. And, um, it, they just, they said, okay, we, we haven't talked with you in a while and we, we really wanna sit down and have a meeting with you. And so when you get an email
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: That never goes well.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Tell me what is this about?
Well, we'll just tell you in the meeting. I'm like, no, you're not. You're gonna tell me what this meeting's about I go on this. And this went back and forth. Well, we just wanna get to know you a little bit better and we have some things we wanted to bring up with you. Tell me what this is about.
And then [00:23:00] eventually I was like, no. I was like, unless you guys are gonna tell me what this is about, I, I've been in ministry meetings where people much like yours, experience, where they're trying to challenge me and do all of this other stuff. And I was like, you know, I would at least like to know what this meeting is supposed to be about.
Well, if you don't attend this meeting, we're gonna remove your lifetime ordination, which is hilarious anyways, in, in a certain sense, my lifetime ordination, did they murder me? Is my life over?
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Did they murder me?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: And I was just like, no, they're, well, if you don't come, you're not. That's it. And that's, I, that's, that was the last I heard. And, and
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: so you just didn't go?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: no. So I, I only have two things I can assume. It's, it's a, it, I think it's the second one, but one I know they probably didn't like that I swore on my podcast, which again, has nothing to do with ministry.
Um, and two, I, it's, it's being, uh, supporting the L-G-B-T-Q community,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: would, which would be where I would probably lean harder in on their issue with me, but. It wasn't doing me any good. Uh, it wasn't as if I, you know, I was like, I was getting discounts to the [00:24:00] grocery store with my frocking, so.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I love, I love the fact that you have a lifetime ordination that got revoked.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: That's fantastic.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I know. 'cause they even gave it to me in a frame. I was expecting it to like just somehow like turn to ash at some point,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: It's like that Banksy that just shreds itself.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: yeah. That's completely it. Yeah. the power of God. It just turns to ash and
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. This is no. longer valid and we can revoke our lifetime award to you. Wow. That's incredible.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Let's talk about the book. I have a couple sections I wanna read and, uh, and see your take on it. And just to give our listeners a flavor of your writing. Very, very much satire as as you'll hear. So here we go.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: how dare you.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: You say, and so it begins, not with thunder, but with the gentle Russell of empty dockers and abandoned socks. The world wants heavy with sermons and casseroles is now lighter or is now quieter, lighter, [00:25:00] perhaps even holier. But you, Yes. you are still here, left behind, not as punishment, but as possibility. A divine clerical error maybe, or perhaps the heavens simply wanted to see what you do with the leftovers.
So take a breath. You may not have ascended, but you've survived the opening act. There are still roles to play. Start small, find shelter, hoard, snacks, locate pants. This was never about escape. It was about enduring with style, spite, and a Costco card. Onward enraptured one, the antichrist awaits, which is just so fantastic.
So your book obviously pokes fun at the irrational fear that tons of people have about the idea of end times. Why do you think this subject is such easy fodder for people to manipulate others with fear?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Uh, I, I feel like it's, it's one of those things that it, it fits very neatly into any kind of conspiracy theory, um, because I [00:26:00] feel like you, you are ending up playing off of people's natural anxiety,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm. '
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: cause you end up Ty typically have, well, I mean, if you think of just the structure of a church, uh, people come because they want to be able to connect with God.
They've got questions about the way the world works. Uh, they're anxious, uh, about spiritual things or heavenly things and all this other stuff. And, and again, a pastor has a lot of power to be able to. Control what they are thinking about the world around them. And it's just kind of like any good grifter, grift, uh, relationship.
And it, it's, it's one of those things where you continue to feed this person something, so you feed them, um, anxiety. So you're feeding this natural anxiety they have, and then you're making them more paranoid and, and, uh, and just afraid of things that, that are happening naturally in the world. And the more that you do this, you begin to just warp their entire worldview.
Um, into things. You know, we've heard biblical worldview. It's a warped worldview that you've been given, um, to be able to look at things. But what it does is for, for the church or for the [00:27:00] pastor that's, that's wielding this, it, it creates almost this like symbiotic relationship where you
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Mm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: else, you know, in the world around you don't believe that I've got the truth for you.
And, and only we here in this church know the truth. And so it's, it's just, it's like a good drug dealer man. Like, you know, the first hits the best, but it keeps you coming back week after week. Like, I need it, I need my worship. Um, but, but it feels like that. And I, I think it feeds into people's natural fears, um, because it gives people certainty in, in situations that have no certainty.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: You, you offer promises for questions that we can't possibly answer. Um, and, and, but when people want to have those certain answers and it makes 'em feel comfortable, even if it's crazy, it makes them feel comfortable.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: there, there's a few sections in the book and I just love that you did it. You would give like historical examples of people who did this and it was just like this reminder as I was reading of like, this has always been a shtick. You know what I mean? Just like, just for, for [00:28:00] generation after generation, this is like a go-to and you know, you're right, it, it absolutely works if you allow it to work.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: right.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm. It works if you allow it to work. But we've been, we've been groomed into that in so many churches to where you, this, this, this person with the pulpit that's on the raised stage, they have the authority. They, they go and commune with God, unlike me, just this, this nobody that just sits, uh, sits in, in the pews.
And so you give that, you give this kind of authority to them, and then you want to hear what they have to say. Especially if, if they are the ones that can speak to God, why wouldn't you wanna listen to their words? But again, it's, it's, it's just, uh, it's a grift and the way we do this and, and, and the funny thing is it's more pagan than it is Christian.
looking for the end times and the end of the world, because this really came about from John Nelson Darby in like the mid eight or early to mid 18 hundreds or twenties to 50. Uh, where Yeah, John Nelson Darby, this dude that had no spiritual background. he was a lawyer. He [00:29:00] was a lawyer, but decided to try to figure out how can we make the Old Testament fit kind of into the New Testament towards moving towards this.
And he created this idea, which a lot of people have hung onto, which is not part of historical Christianity, even though the evangelicals would act like it is, but it's not, it's not that old.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. well, it, it works, you know, so that's why I think. The, the it capture fear works anyways. But then when you have an ongoing pool of, you can constantly play to this fear if you want. And none of it's, as you point out in the book, none of it's verifiable, right? So you can make these claims and you even, you even mock like the end times, you know, prophecy of like, make sure it's vague, make sure that it's not measurable, you know, which again, all of that, I'm just like, that is so what it is.
I mean, I remember I made the news years ago and I, I think it was Harold Camping, uh, when he made his big thing and, um, there was like a news station that was like looking for someone to basically say like, is this guy legit or [00:30:00] not? And I, you know, I just gave some quote where I was like, you know, this is the most absurd thing, whatever.
And like, I made it to like the evening news, you know, of like local pastor Denounces Harold, camping. And I was just like, and then I watched it come and go, right? It's like this is just the shtick and. There's no way to verify it. So it, it's, there's always ripe for the grifter. And I love that your book through satire hopefully gets people to realize like, Yeah. I don't wanna give people this power over me with this absurd theology and ideology.
And again, as you, as you poke fun at it, it is, It's, almost like as you read your book, you're like, how could anybody take this serious? Except I've lived my entire life watching people take it serious. You know what I mean?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: it's absolutely insane. Even growing up in around it, I don't, I don't know what your background was, but did you grow up
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I did.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I did. Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: believe stuff. All the, the big adults that we think are great are telling us stuff with conviction. Uh, why wouldn't we believe it as kids?
'cause we're, we're, we're, [00:31:00] can we trust it? And, and it ends up taking us down these crazy roads. But you mentioned camping. I, I've always wondered about folks that will deal. Okay. He, he says it's gonna happen on this date, gets it wrong, and then he's gonna have a ne another date next year. So, I mean, there's some balls in that guy.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: You know what I'm saying? Like, there's
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I mean that is like charisma, like you're flaunting. I can literally convince people of anything.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah. And just keep going. Just keep going.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Like reality has no bearing on me, which I.
think we're seeing with our president. Like when you have that level of, again, I don't, charisma feels like too nice of a word for it, but whatever you want to call it.
Right. That ability of, I can convince you of something in the face of reality if you would look. But that's what you see with this theology. And again, I think we're seeing
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: your booker mocking, we're seeing it on a grand scale all around us, but it's the same idea.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: It is, it is, it's exactly the same idea. And the sad thing is, [00:32:00] and I don't know, I'm not gonna prescribe this to all of, uh, the orange Messiah's followers, but, but I do think that that their denial of reality with their eyes, um, it, it's, you have to keep, you have to keep showing up for that, because I feel, I feel like that's an active, that's an active pursuit for them to, to constantly continue to say, well, hold a second.
Well hold a second. I am seeing things with my eyes. Hold a second. I need to do that. And, and so I think at some point you have to, you have to begin to ask, and it's easy for us to point fingers at, at the, at the leaders. It's also the ones that follow them. I, I, I think that there's something to where they're afraid.
I think there's a psychological part of them that is afraid to, to leave because it means admitting that they were wrong this entire time, having to own up to all of this other kind of stuff, and I think it's just easier to stay instead
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Well, not only the, not only that but then however long they've been invested in this, whatever work they've done was all for Naugh.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yep. All the bridges, they burned with people.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: [00:33:00] Well, and I, I, I ended up meeting with a group of people who were disgruntled with some things that I said recently, and they were all over 70 and. They were very much into MAGA theology and all of that.
And what was interesting to me that I didn't, I didn't even realize it in the moment, and then I, I replayed this, 'cause like in the moment it caught me off guard, but a number of them said, you gotta consider the age. Okay.
so they're all over 70. A number of them said, I don't even, I'm not even on Facebook.
I don't even check things. Now Facebook to them equals social media, right? Because that's the only social media they're in. But a number of them said that. And in the moment it kind of caught me off guard like, why are you telling me that? I did not, I, I didn't understand. Like, okay, Yeah. I don't, I didn't ask if you're on Facebook.
Right? But then what I realized they were saying is, I'm not even aware of what's going on. And they're almost saying that as a built-in defense, like, Yeah. you might be saying something, but I don't even know what you're addressing. And then I realized that's the way you deal with the cognitive dissonance is [00:34:00] if I don't see it, then I don't have to explain it.
And then I think that's what happens is I'm just gonna pull way back from this. Then I don't stare at it.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: if you stare at it, then you have that dissonance of this does not align with anything I'm hearing. What do I do with that? And I think, again, what I love what your book is doing is like taking a, a subject that feels safer to talk about this than what the mess we see going on around us.
But if we can use this subject to teach a concept of like, Hey, let's approach this rationally with logic and reason and like sit down and if you can do it here, you can do it to everything else that they're telling you.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: That's, yeah. Yeah. I, I think, I think that helps. And it's the one thing that you were making me think of within this, and I don't know if, if you're, if you're 70-year-old, uh, fans, I guess that you were having a fan event. Was this,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I don't, I don't think they would call themselves that.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: it was, they were groupies that you were meeting for a meet and greet.
Um, yeah. But when I think of them, oftentimes when, [00:35:00] what I've noticed too, when you, when you end up calling out like MAGA folks for things, you're not really calling them out. You can call it the president, but they take it personally
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yes,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: so, so they've so like fused their identity.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: a hundred percent.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: with him. And so even a call out saying like, you know, for saying like, well, he's rambling on, like, or he's incoherent, then it makes them feel like you're saying like, oh, you're a fool.
so that's sometimes I guess why satire, uh, you can slide things in a little easier than direct humor with stuff. So I've been having to, to try to figure out where is that medium,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: being able to reach folks as well. 'cause I've pissed off a ton of them with this book too. Um, just the marketing
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Well, and I can imagine someone, you know, if you do believe this and then you read your book, you could have that same reaction of like, he's making fun.
of me.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: You know what I mean? Whereas you're not, you're making fun of the idea and what the idea has become, but if you have attached your identity to that idea.
Then you will receive that, that satire as a personal offense.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: It [00:36:00]
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: this is, I think, a challenge of communication right now. Like, how do we communicate to these people without them taking it personal so that you can help them see, no, no, no. You, you're like, I wanna unattach you to this idea. Right?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: No, you, you're right about it. Because it's, it's, I, I think the key in, in all, in this weird time period that we're in is, is always making sure that we, we punch up and not punch down.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Um, because it's, even, even though the followers may not like us punching up against their orange Messiah, but, um, but, but I do, and my point of the book was also not making fun of those that have followed, that have followed these grifters before too.
'cause I grew up with it. Like I grew up with my mom watching Jim and Tammy and, and sending money, um, to this because they were saying this and that or the other. I, I, I grew up around different circles where, you know, I saw people getting ripped off, uh, by this kind of stuff. And, and, and so I, I know the deep desire for people to people will come really, really, really vulnerable.
Searching for something, for God. [00:37:00] these church spaces or to these televangelist spaces because they're wanting something. They hurt, there's something that they want and they're wanting God to fix it or to affirm them or, or, or whatever. And, and people are incredibly vulnerable in these places. and
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Mm
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: that's, that's a lot of what drives me being pissed off at those that, that are, that control, these systems that hurt people, um, are the fact that, yeah, yeah, folks are genuinely looking for help and we're giving them answers that make them feel better, but they're not making them any better.
They're
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: mm
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Um, and you're just giving them nothing. You're, you're giving 'em hope and, and emptiness.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. Mm. That's good. Okay, here's another one that I, I enjoyed.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Let's go back to the fun stuff.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. We need some, we need some jokes.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: wait. Some levity.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Once you suspect you've been left behind, it's crucial to determine who else is still around. Not all survivors will be non-believers. Some might be part of the ever hopeful remnant, clinging to the idea that they were chosen for a special mission.[00:38:00]
Others are rapture rejects, some due to divine clerical error. Others disqualified for playing dungeons and dragons or accidental blasphemy of the Holy Spirit during a youth group retreat, which your last point there is going to hit some people because man, that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has Jackson some people up over the years.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Here's my question on, I love this. Uh, do you think most people are gonna be surprised by who's around them in eternity?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah, I, I, I hate, I hate this question 'cause also I feel like it's irrelevant, um, for, for my life right now on earth. Um, 'cause I'm one of those ones where I, I don't even know. I, if heaven exists, cool.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: it doesn't, cool. It still doesn't take away from what Christ called us to do. and yeah, I would, I would think so, but I think, but I think it may surprise us a lot, uh, who's gonna be [00:39:00] in heaven either way.
'cause sometimes I remember like, would be like, well, when I was like, I remember being like a youth pastor. Well, do you think God has an up grace to forgive Hitler? This is, you know,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Oh, it's, it always goes there.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: always goes to Hitler. Um, or do you think God has enough grace to, to, to forgive Donald Trump? Maybe now. So if we wanna, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Why would, why would he need forgiveness? Stuart?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: That's true. He's basically God's son anyways. Um, no, I, I think that I, yes, yes to your answer. And we're trying to be funny now. Um, I do think people would be very surprised on who's in heaven. I think on both sides too. I, I think that if we do believe that God is, is, is forgiving and graceful and that, and all his grace is enough, I think it's gonna shock a bunch of people.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Well, here's why I think that question matters to the here and now, because one of the conclusions I've come to is so, like I've, I've changed my view on this. I, I think Jesus is gonna save everybody. I have learned this is a very offensive thing to believe about Jesus. And you might think, why would that be offensive?
What wouldn't [00:40:00] everybody want Jesus to save everybody? And the answer is no. And the reason why No.
is because they want a sense of justice to be, to be done to the people that they don't like, or the people that have wronged them, or you know, who Hitler being obviously the proverbial example. But you know, there's, there's a lot more examples people have than that, right?
Of anybody, you know, in this camp or whatever. They need them to be excluded, for them to feel like heaven was meaningful
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: So to me, I actually liked even your, even the section of like looking around you, like who's there I thought was an intriguing thing to add to it because I think people will be very surprised whatever comes next.
Right? However that plays out. I don't think it's going to be this close-knit people just like me that most Christians secretly hope is gonna be true. And if it's not, that, that should fundamentally, radically shift the way we treat people now.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Abso. No, I a hundred percent agree with what you're saying with that too. [00:41:00] And uh, yes. 'cause I also think that heaven isn't gonna be like Purley Gates and looking like Graceland or Mar-a-Lago. How like we've always like described it. You or we're Oprah. Like you get a mansion, you get a mansion, you get a
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: or Jewels in the crown.
We're gonna have so many jewels in our crowns. We're gonna, it's gonna be bling to hell. It's gonna be ugly. It is gonna be Vegas, man. I don't want Vegas in heaven, Vaga. But you know, maybe heaven is Vegas. 'cause Vegas accepts everybody. You know,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Oh, look at that. See what you did there.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: is all about grace, apparently Grace and taking your money.
But
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: And there's no time in Vegas that also could work well. You know what I mean? It's like, It's just always what time. Like no one knows. No one knows what time it is in Vegas.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: This is beautiful, man. yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: We're onto to something here. Let's write a book about heaven being Vegas and we'll, this will be part two.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Okay.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Uh, okay, so you get, I'm gonna spoil this for, for listeners, uh, which I feel like It's not spoiling, but,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I'll forgive you.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: you get to the end of the [00:42:00] book and I feel like you lower your cards a little bit and you, you show you kind of what you're indicating here.
And I actually thought it was beautiful the way you, you say this, so this is still funny, but this is, uh, a different kind of satire where you, you begin to show like, Hey, here's kind of the point of this. And I thought this was a, a, a beautiful section. You say this is the truth. No prophecy cells that maybe the world doesn't end in a bang or trumpet blast, but in slow forgiveness, in rebuilding, in the sacred act of staying, you waited for the heavens to split and they didn't.
You prepared for death and were handed groceries. You survived a story that was supposed to end and now you must write what comes next live just in case. Because grace was never about escape. It was about endurance. And revelation was never a threat. It was a mirror. You now set down beside your shovel.
So go plant something and if the trumpet sound again, let them find you. Mid [00:43:00] laughter covered in dirt alive.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I love the beauty of you taking it away from the naval gazing star gazing to
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: do something. Love someone near you
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Just like why, why is that? I, I suspect that's something you hope people get out of the book of like, after you're done with all the laughter, you Go, oh yeah, this is the point.
Right?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: go figure out what's real. Go touch grass. Go like commune with your neighbor. Go figure out what's like, you know, what, what is, what is broken in your community that needs help. Go to those places that, that, that really matter instead of us trying to do things that are, I think we like to be attached to grandiose things, especially when we're in the age of social media now, where everything needs to seem bigger and grander.
Um, but I think it's, it's, it's in the small,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: in the small little things that I feel like we're, where grace is living nowadays. Um, the things that remind us that we're human things that remind us that, uh, we are [00:44:00] here on the earth that like nature and others matter to us. You know, those kind of things that we can get so lost in it because we go into these.
You know, we, we doom scroll, uh, we, we just, we invest so much online and forget that there's so much outside of whatever this sphere is that we're in now. and there's so much more to live for.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I just love the idea of you can spend so much time on your theology and you can miss what's happening around you.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: And I think Christians right now are so busy on so many weird things and, and they're missing the chance to love their neighbors. Well,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: And it's, it's interesting when you tell people things like that, well, why aren't you just going back to doing that? And I, I, I, I think for a lot, just don't want to. Um, I, I, I think, I think a lot of American Christianity is very, very comfortable and lazy. Right now, I think it's all about preference or, or at least [00:45:00] wanting their church or heaven to be like a country club like you'd mentioned, you know, otherwise we've got the haves and the have nots.
Um, you know, only want the sheeps in here, not them goats. Um, but, but I think it's become grandly about so much about comfort and, and not really about doing the honest, simple work of Christ, of just being human to your neighbors or just those that you're in contact with. I, I, I think, I don't know, I felt like we've, we've almost lost the art of living
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: because we're in too many virtual spaces nowadays, but I dunno, I think we've lost the art of living probably in the eighties, seventies.
I dunno. There's, there's probably, we can complain. We can be old men complaining about Back when we had it
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: back in our day.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: But this is why, you know, we can often make things like, you know, spiritual conversations happen in the church and they sound like this, and they don't sound like that, and they don't. This is why I love having a glass of wine with. 'cause there's a lot less bullshit when you're having a glass of wine having a conversation.
And I learned [00:46:00] this as a lead pastor, right? We would go out to the winery on Saturday, have these phenomenal conversations. I'd see the same couple on Sunday, and they'd be priming proper, you know? And I remember thinking, I, I like the conversation better at the winery. 'cause like, that was a real version of you.
And there was no expectations. It was just like, how are you doing? What's going on? You know? And then you get into the setting. And again, it's not, it doesn't have to be that way. It just tends to be that way, right? Of like, oh, I'm supposed to act this part. I'm supposed to do this thing. And theology unfortunately, can do that when you get lost in it and you, you miss this, the chance of like, go, go be a good human to the, the other humans around you.
And that's actually the best way to follow Jesus is like not having the, the 10 right beliefs about Jesus. It's talking in a way that looks like Jesus. Like people go, I, I kind of hear Jesus in you the way that you treat me. Like that means more, I don't really care what you believe about Jesus at the end of the day.
I'd rather you look like Jesus.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah. Well, no. Well, I love two things that you were saying too. I'm trying to remember both of now. Uh, [00:47:00] but you, but mentioning spaces you were talking about like going to wineries and stuff and how they would feel that this would feel so much different and to feel more honest. And it's because it was just a safe space.
oftentimes the churches aren't safe spaces. These
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: step into a church, you're stepping into a system or a program or something, a machine. You're stepping into machinery.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: yeah. Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: and, and I feel like the winery, there's, there's not that machinery there that you're able just to just be, and you're able to breathe.
And you don't, you're just co people. not like, you're not a, a pastor and a congregant. You're not, you're not any of those things. You're just like, oh yeah, we're people and we can drink wine. Cool. is, this is, this is what it's about. Because I think too often where churches can teach us that.
You mentioned like knowing the, the right 10 things. Uh. think from doing discipleship and trying to walk with people for, I mean, I was, I did ministry for 20 years. I, I think that people can feel satisfied with being able to memorize scripture and to be able to regurgitate it. But I think also, like so much of crisis, like, and go and do,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: and I feel like you don't really [00:48:00] understand scripture at all.
Um, if you're just simply sitting in a church talking about it, intellectualizing it, memorizing it, doing all of this, it doesn't make sense until you're actually out doing what you're supposed to be doing.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Mm-hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: otherwise it's, I I just feel like it's, it's just two different realms, um, that you're talking about that it's a very different realm from those pastors that I've known.
People that have only been seminary and only like, been a pastor and keep themselves insulated from the rest of the world, uh, versus those that have, that do know the Bible, that just know how to go and hang around people. Um, and like you said, drinking does help. Um,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Well, and I think we're gonna come into an era where the churches that can remember that and can foster that will be the ones that will offer hope to people. Right? Where it's like, Hey, we're not gonna get here. Get you here and rally around a bunch of doctrines.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: we're gonna love, well, we're gonna be a community that loves Well, and I think when, when the church is known for that again, and that becomes the reason you, you want to be a part of a community totally different than, Hey, they, they give me a sense of [00:49:00] certainty and the right beliefs and, you know, reinforce all that.
No, they're gonna actually help me love people better and experience that love myself. Like that's, that's the invitation. And I think collectively we've gone away from that in so many churches that it's gonna be, that's gonna be the work in this next season is getting back to that.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: It feels like it's gonna be a, it's gonna be a long next season to get
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. Yeah. We need a lot of wine.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: it, it feels like that. And also gonna, it feels like one of those like Moses situations where you're like, well, I'll help get you guys near the promised land. I may never see it. Um,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: This will be great for your kids. Yeah, Your kids are gonna love this.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: the churches in America has dug a hole with a lot of shit, uh, that they're gonna have to bail themselves out of. Um, and I think just being able to walk away from certain structures that they think are the church, um, and not realize that the church is always people,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: the church is always people.
It's not platforms, it's not systems, it's not programs. It's always, always, always, always, always a hundred percent people. Um, [00:50:00] because yeah, I come back to this and this is where the church has gone wrong. When I, denomination sent me through, like, it was all this church planting training stuff that you go through.
And there was a guy that's an expert in church planting. I remember him explaining to us, uh, and he's like, well, as you're planting a church, you have to realize the people that you're starting this with, they're just mere, they're the scaffolding. just gonna be there to help you get things going, and they probably won't be around and you don't have to worry about them.
And, and, and in that moment it dawned on me and I was like, wait a second. So. They don't matter.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Well, they matter to your ends. They're a means to your ends.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: so Machiavellian.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: and so then it hit me too, especially in America, the way that we do church is what do you do? As soon as you, you were, you were established in church. The moment you establish a church, that church is about keeping that church alive. It is no longer about keeping being there for people.
So it's, it's one key is how do I keep myself alive, [00:51:00] uh, as an as, as an entity? Not about how do I continue to give myself out to others.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: that moment it's, it becomes selfish.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I remember I was at a, a lead pastor conference, and this was for like churches, I think, I think all the churches had to, you had to be over a thousand to be invited to this.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Okay.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: And they would like do these sessions of like, here's the latest and greatest tricks that we know. And I remember one of 'em did this presentation on why every single church, uh, in the room should do an at the movie series in the summer and.
Which do whatever series you wanna do. But the way it was presented was at the movies, and then it was like, facts about if you do it X amount of weeks, you'll get this percentage. I mean, like
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: This.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: formulaic as as you
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: marketing.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Oh, dude. I was blown away, like by the presentation. I was like, I, I, I'm out of This And then the guy that gave the presentation happened to be like, at my table.
So he sits down afterward and he is like, he's like, [00:52:00] so, you know, how, how long are you gonna do it this summer? And I'm like, yeah, I'll be honest with you. I don't think I'm gonna do this. And he's like, did you not hear like you'll grow? And again, it, it was something crazy like
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: It's off the top of my head, like 35% growth or something like that.
Right. And he was like, Jeremy, I guarantee you it will grow 35%. And I said, you may be right.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: You may be right. I said, but it would fundamentally kill something inside of me to make that trade. And I said, I'm not wired for that. I can't be that guy. I'm not judging another church that does, I'm just telling you for me to say, Hey, I'm gonna go do this series that I'm not personally stoked on and don't feel like that's how I'd wanna preach
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I'm gonna get 35% increase in attendance.
Like, but I think you're right. This is what church often becomes of, here's the formula, this is your scaffolding, here's how you build it. And again, what people don't realize is like, if you've never been in those spaces, you may not even know that exists. You're like, no, all the pastors, [00:53:00] like when you're in those spaces and you're like, wait, this is what we're doing.
And then, you know, you know, guys like you and I walk away from versions of it that we're like, I'm not doing that anymore. And people go, oh, you must be so bitter. It's like, I'm not really bitter, I just don't want to go do that. Like, That's not what I, ever signed up for. And when I discovered. That's what it was.
I'm out, I'm not bitter. I'm following Jesus out the door. Right. It's like,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: be able to sleep at night.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: it's guy. But I can imagine this guy sitting down at, at a table, Jeremy, come on your church right now.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Oh yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I'm gonna guess you probably, Hmm. Your church. You probably have anywhere from 25 to 35 guys named Chris. Now what if I could guarantee you
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: It's,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: that
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: is that oh yeah. No, but it's, I just, it was almost like a money back guarantee. Like, Jeremy, I, you cannot lose on this. And I remember saying like, I'm not arguing that it wouldn't work. I'm not even, I'm not even attempting that argument with You I'm just saying I can't be that guy. Like, I, I [00:54:00] just,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: lose.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I can't, I can't do it.
I can't do that. and, uh, and I, I would just encourage people like, that goes on more than you realize. Which is why some of us have a hard time navigating those spaces. It's not 'cause we're angry at the church, it's because that's not the church we ever signed up for.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: And, and then we got angry at it after that point a little bit.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Sure.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I feel, I feel like some of that is just gross. I feel like that is, some of that is just so, like,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Well then when you gaslight me on my way out, then Yeah. now I got, I got issue with you of like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: something here. Yeah. Like his grace isn't sufficient for this moment.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Oh, that's great.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: you know,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: No, but it, but is it, but isn't it weird how, how it is, how, how Faith almost sounds like a Fran like franchising or marketing or multi-level marketing or all this other kind of stuff where it's just, if we only can do this more, we can get more people into heaven because I mean, that's, that, that's part of me too.
Like I, I part of my career as I worked for the evangelistic organization as well too, and you get to the place where you're just, you're just looking at numbers and [00:55:00] not humans and you're just doing things that are just, that's eventually what, yeah. I, I worked for a number of years with an evangelistic organization.
I was on their, I was on their leadership board and I started realizing, I kept asking questions that were just a pain in the ass to everybody constantly. And I thought I was doing a difference of like helping them out. And at some point you realize, no, you're just, just really just being a pain of their ass and
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: want what you're saying because it's, it's not simply about praying a prayer.
I mean, that, that is the silliest thing that we have boiled down evangelism to. about the ABCs of our faith, you know, admitting, believing, committing, and as long as they do that, you're fine and you're in heaven. not teaching anybody how to live, what we're inviting people into. It's not any of that.
And it's just all nothingness and learning how to manipulate people and get better results.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: well, we've bastardized the Great Commission
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yep.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: and then ends justify the means. Get the great commission done. However you gotta do it is spiritual and holy and leave as many bodies behind as you got to.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Well, it's, [00:56:00] I, what's even hit me from being around missions and stuff like that too, is I, I feel like the great commission was almost like a challenge. Like, if we can do all of these things we'll somehow, like, like Jesus is sitting around in heaven, like he's lazy. He's like, all right. Have they done it all yet?
Nope. All right.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Not yet.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah. Have they
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Wake me up tomorrow.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: has everyone heard? Nope. Not today. All right. But it's this idea that somehow if we were just like to everyone were to hear the gospel, we just make it as simple and stupid and and flimsy as possible. If everyone can hear that dumb message, then somehow Jesus is gonna come back and we can get outta this shit hole.
Uh, but no, doing the real work of like, it's, it's, it's very, very different. It's very, very different teaching people that Yeah. Yes. Like forgiveness, grace, all of these other things. This is, this is very difficult work to do. Uh, and, and I feel like if you're honestly doing the work of Christ, you're not gonna make a ton of money doing this.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: You know, this isn't one of those get rich quick schemes. It, it's, you be, you follow the waves of Christ. No, this is probably a, [00:57:00] a way to get poor or to just have less. Um, and so yeah. So I think those that are like, well, prosper, prosperity gospel, that's a whole nother, that's a whole nother conversation.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: My, my goal the rest of my life is to someday make as much as I made as a lead pastor
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: doing non lean pastor things.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I'm not doing well in that so far, but some someday. That's what people don't realize. Like there not only is there certainty in it, there's a good paycheck in it and it, it works until it doesn't.
Alright. On that optimistic note, let's transition.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: We,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: We're gonna ask you,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: you're like, come on. This is humorous satire. We're gonna have fun here. Right? This guy's gonna
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: no.
I suspected we might, we might go here as, as I saw
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Oh,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: you and I are, are too aligned on the stuff that we, we talk about. I was like, we're gonna go there, but let's talk about wine for a little bit and we'll lighten it up.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yep.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: uh admittedly, you're not a huge wine guy, so I want to, I want you to, to see what you got here.
[00:58:00] If I were to ask you, Stewart, what's the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life? Is there a story that comes to your mind? Can you think of the bottle? Can you think of where you were, who you were with? Why was it so special? Is there anything you've got that you're like, I think that was my favorite wine experience ever.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: No, uh.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Nothing. Huh?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I can, I can, I can say I, I can think of a different situation where it was, I think they were, uh, it was just two other pastors and I at one, we were at some sort of a conference. Um, and it wasn't wine, but it was whiskey and it was just, I think we were over, like what you were talking about. Um, it was one of these conferences that you're, you're at and it's just, it's all, it's, it's selling you, as pastors or it's, you know, telling you you're not enough 'cause you, then you need to do this kind of stuff.
And I, I just, I was, it, it, I just felt way over marketed. And it, and it was just kind of gross. And I, I just remember being able to sit and have a drink with some people and go like, yeah, that felt gross. do you two? [00:59:00] Okay. Yeah. Okay.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: the only one, um, here. And I think sometimes being able to, to know that you're not the only one or you're not the crazy one, in circles where everyone is just eaten it up, they're just like, oh, more Kool-Aid, more Kool-Aid, more Kool-Aid.
it, it, it's helpful to know, okay, I'm not crazy. I'm not crazy, I'm not alone. And so I think sometimes those kind of conversations like you'd mentioned too, like this, being able to have a drink and, and have honest conversation, I think is, is beautiful. Especially in spaces where we've been taught to not always be honest.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. Well, it becomes, that becomes a holy moment for you.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: mm-hmm. Absolutely.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I love that.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: All right. Which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you? And who would you not trust and why?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Hmm. Church history, I think, I think both answers would probably be Jesus. Um, 'cause he'd
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Wow.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: like a bottle of water and be like, [01:00:00] um, no, that's not a good answer. Uh, church history. Who would be better for drinking wine?
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: So you're gonna trust someone to go get you a bottle. Who are you trusting?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: uh,
I'm gonna mess up what I'm saying. Uh, isn't Francis of Assisi was a Franciscan monk? I believe so, and I know the Franciscans were also into making wine and other things as well too. So I think I'd also have a good conversation whether he wasn't into making wine or not with St. Francis or someone like Brother Lawrence, I think would be more interesting, I think for folks that were able to see things a little slower.
Um, to see things that were more about presence than performance, um, to also sing God in the small things. I think those, those two could be interesting. Who would I not trust to pick me out a good bottle of wine? Uh, Billy Graham.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm. It's the first time I've got that answer.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah. Yeah. I think he'd be terrible.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I agree with you. [01:01:00] I would not want him to, I would not want him to pick out a bottle of wine for me either.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: no.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: that, Stuart. That's good.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong? About
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Oh God. So many things. Um, I thought the ending of Stranger Things would be good, I
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I, I have not seen it, but my son did not like it.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: okay. Your son is, he's correct. Um, I, I, uh, hell, hell, uh, yeah, that's a big one. I, I think just even like the way scripture is, is read around hell. I think of, uh, how I was raised to think that, uh, folks in the L-G-B-T-Q community were, were abominations and wrong.
I think that was absolutely wrong, and I, I never preached against it. Um, but I was. I knew that was still part of my, my upbringing in growing on that. Uh, but yeah, hell, hell, I did a lot of working for an evangelistic organization. Hell, fire and brimstone kind of stuff to where you're just like, I love these [01:02:00] kids, so I don't want them to go to
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Mm-hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: yeah. Um, it, it just feels like that was more like sometimes preaching on hell is, is like abuse in those kind of things to where like, you always see these situations like, well, I'm only hitting you 'cause I love you. Um, and it's one of those things that you're not hitting them, but you are doing that to them spiritually and terrifying them.
Uh, because yeah, if heaven was that compelling, do you need to use abject fear and terror to be
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Because it's not that compelling. That's the problem.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I know, I
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Neither is Jesus to them.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I, yeah. And you know, uh,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: And it is always said like you, like you just packaged it where I'm just showing I don't want you. to go there. It's, it's always, it's always as a concern. It's, this is empathy and it's like, no, no, this is a backhanded threat that if I don't do what you're saying, that's what awaits me.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah, that's.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: And, and no, it, it is and, [01:03:00] and I remember it in its hollow list of terms. I was, I was probably 12 and, um, there was, there was a kid I'd grown up with and his, he, they went to our church and his, his dad had died and, and his dad never, was, never the guy that went to church. So it was like, it was like the, the, the two sons and the mother went, but it was always, we were always worried about his soul.
Um, and he had died, which is, which is tragic too, especially for someone to die probably in their, I think forties, uh, or fifties. And the family, it was all very dour and like, oh, this is so sad. And then I remember it was almost this moment where it's like, wait, we wait everyone we found this, we found his childhood bible and it had a little, it had a confirmation card in it that he had prayed a prayer when he was five.
Yay. Now we can turn this into a celebration. Um, and I just remember even as, even like as a 12-year-old being like, what is this?
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: They found the golden ticket.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: it was, and it was so weird. And, and I under, and I know I'm not making fun [01:04:00] of them 'cause I understand like the systems they're in that would give them a, that that would help them to be able to not be like, oh my beloved is roasting in hell forever.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Sure.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Um, it's the worst barbecue party, but I. But also at the same time, but just how, like, how much controlling and delusional that is for people to have to be like, we're not gonna celebrate his life or who he was as a person, but we're now, oh gosh, oh gosh. All we want to think about is hell now. It, it's, I it's so dehumanizing, to the way people live their lives or who they are and it's so judgmental at the same time too.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. It's worth changing your mind on. I like that.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: What do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in the United States today?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: The easy answer is, is stuff like Christian nationalism. I think, I think the biggest thing is, um, I think, think most, I, I think the churches have aren't, are teaching the actual gospel. I, I think Christianity has become selfish and comfortable. I think [01:05:00] that's really what it is. I think teachings are, they're not like, I mean, you just kind of read 'em and it's, they're, none of this is a get a get outta a hell free card.
This is a get off your ass and go do something hard. and it's not fun. Um, and there's times where it is wonderful and, and, and, and is great, but there's also a lot of times where, uh, it's about getting your, your fingers dirty. Um, and, and it's, it's, it's messy. Um, being involved with people is messy. and, and that's the sad thing is in most churches, I feel like, I feel like most ministries should be really messy.
Um, messy in the way that a lot of Southern Baptist pastors are getting arrested for doing gross, messy
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Thank you.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: that.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Thank you for clarifying that.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah. I'm ideologically messy 'cause
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. Yeah,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: messy. And, um, in that way, because I, I do, I think that we prioritize Sunday morning actual like spiritual growth or.
Life and community or, or messiness within all of that. Um, [01:06:00] so yeah, I think people need to, Christians need to, uh, put on their big boys and girl pants and kind of just go out and do the messy work of Christ.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: that's good. What's something blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Part of what we've actually talked about, 'cause um, we were talking about some of this earlier, 'cause I, I, I've been working through a piece on identity fusion, um, and, and when we were talking about how, um, folks see their identity almost in infused with Trump. Um, and for me, who's a person who likes being sarcastic, who likes having a sense of humor, who also likes being cutting and an asshole at times as well too.
Um, I'm beginning to see more and more that I know I have a, I I, I, I haven't, I've not had many pieces that I write I hate when I'm writing, when I'm writing it.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: and I'm writing it and going like. I know this is true and I don't want to be saying these things, but I think that, [01:07:00] that if, if we are ever gonna heal things in our country, this isn't even spiritual.
Um, with the political divide that we're in right? Nowadays, there's those of us that see reality and there's those of us that don't see reality and it's easy to consistently dunk on them. Um, for those that don't because they are frustrating and they cause pain they, they cause pain for lots of people.
Um, and their ignorance and, and doing this in the name of crisis is infuriating and makes us rage, or at least me, makes me rage inside to say that we're doing this as a Christian. Um, but I also know that, uh, if we're ever gonna move towards a thing called healing. Um, or going back to some sort of normalcy, we're gonna have to start creating certain off-ramps for people.
And I'm not saying remove accountability, I'm not saying any of those things, but I think that there is, there's a part of us in our hearts that, at least for me, I, I wanna see some public humiliation. I wanna see some public shame. 'cause I, I, I feel like people have done such disgusting things. You kind of want to see that, and it feels like it would feel good,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: but I feel like I have to give up some of that.[01:08:00]
Um, I, I think that for us to be able to say that we need to, to, to offer an off ramp for some people, because some people aren't, some people are, are committed to the grift, they're committed to the Kool-Aid. They're committed to the hate and they bigotry. But I feel like there's some other people that have gotten caught up in it, where their identities are caught up in it and they can't see a way out.
Um, so I, I feel like that is something that I'm learning lately that, that a lot of the reason that people continue in the places they're at, it's more of a psychological issue. Not an, it's not an intellectual, it's not even a spiritual issue, it's a psychological one I feel like they don't feel safe to leave whatever they brought themselves into.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Um, and I hate that. I ha I hate that I'm writing this
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: is this the book. that you were
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: this is,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: trying to work on? Oh.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: no, this is a piece for, for, uh, what I write for, I write for pathos. Um, no, no, no. Um, but it's one of those things where I, I just, I feel like grace is gonna need to happen and there's gonna be times where we're gonna wanna say, I told you so.
And, [01:09:00] uh, I, for one, being a person that have had to cut people out of my life, um, because they were so horrendous and toxic and believing. Yeah. And, um. And that doesn't mean you let the gates and the doors wide open. 'cause I feel like there's things for, for being psychologically, um, safe for yourself and certain boundaries are helpful.
But I think that there, there are going to need to be people that are gonna need a space to be able to off ramp from the toxicity that they've been in and they've identified with. And I don't fully know what that looks like. And I feel like that is also very messy work.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: and it's work that I would rather just make fun of.
I'd rather just make fun of people. I'd rather just feel intellectually superior and, and dunk on folks. And that's, that would feel good. Um, yeah, that's messing with me nowadays that I feel like I'm having even changed some of my rhetoric even more depending upon audiences I'm talking with. Um, because that, that is the sad fact of the matter of if we're this polarized, there's only two, there's only two ways out.[01:10:00]
Um, either we're just going to continue to keep trying to kill each other, either ideologically or, uh, yeah, physically. Um. Or through or through policy, or we're gonna have to be able to find a different way because I feel like there's a lot of people that need to be shown that there is a different way.
because, because those folks that follow the Orange Man, uh, were, were drifted into that place through grievance and pain, much like anything in the tribulation and all this other kind of stuff. And it's no different. And, you know, I think at some place, even though those people say violent, horrible things, um, and it makes us angry, we have to also realize they're hurting, um, where they're at and they need, they need some sort of an off ramp.
But I don't know what that looks like, but it's been an idea that's messing with me that I hate.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I had, uh, a guy named Caleb Campbell, I don't know if you know that is, uh, on a previous podcast episode. And he, he works a lot. He calls himself a missionary to Christian Nationalists,
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Mm,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: and he made the point on, on our episode [01:11:00] where he said they didn't logically get themselves into this situation. It was an emotional, so he is like, you can't logically get them out of it.
You have to emotionally help them out of it. And I thought that was such a fascinating insight, is we always bring the logic of like, let me show you why this makes no sense and why this is stupid. And it then you wonder why are they not hearing us? And it's like, because they, that's not how they got into it, right?
They got into it because they were scared or they were, you know, they needed somewhere to belong or somewhere to feel seen and, you know, so it's like until you meet 'em there, they're gonna have a hard time getting out.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: And, and, and as one who is deconstructed, I was reminded when I was even beginning to write some of this that I was writing, I know what it's like to leave community, you know,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: to, to walk away from a pulpit. It, it, it, it, there's, there's a cost to it. and you lose, you lose friends, you lose people because they don't understand, uh, the path that you're walking on.
And so it is hard, uh, but it's also different because I think a lot of us that have deconstructed kind of went into this more for faith and [01:12:00] ideological reasons, and we're choosing to leave it as opposed to being stuck in a situation where we're just like, I don't know how to get out. I don't know
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I don't know what to do. I, so, I don't know. I feel like I have to have grace and say I've, I've been there too in different ways.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah, that's good. What's something you're excited about?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: What is something I am excited about? I, I'm constantly excited about, wait, it's the, we are, we just entered the lunar new year, if that even matters for anything like that too.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Is that a big deal for you?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I, I don't know, but it's, it's, it's cool. It's, it's, it's looking for other stuff that's interesting. I, I'm excited for, I don't really know.
I, I feel like I'm at a place right now where it, it's, I don't have a whole lot of excitement looking at the horizon. I feel like there's a lot of work that needs to be done. I feel like there's a lot of entrenched things. I, I'm excited about my kids' lives and, um, able to be excited for different milestones that they are celebrating.
And I, I've got four kids. Uh, this is our first year of being [01:13:00] empty nesters, where our last one is, is in college. So two in college, two outta college. they are my hope and my future. Um, and so way I look at, and I'm excited about them,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Hmm.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I want to try to help continue to launch them and help them to be into who they need to be and want to be, um, in ways that I wasn't offered, uh, growing up.
And so I think I'm excited about that.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: That's cool.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Alright. Before we wrap this up, Stewart, is there anything we have not got to, we didn't address that. You're like, look, I gotta, I gotta mention that before we wrap this up.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I just don't think that you've, you've been honest, um, so far, Jeremy, um,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: What
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: like, you know, we don't know each other, but I mean, I think we did, we met about, like, it was like 15 years ago. We, we, we met in prison. Um, yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: did we
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: You're being modest here. You're being modest. We, we go, we go a little further back.
Um, you know, you know,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: tell, tell me about when we
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: it was, you were called, I think I remember you as, uh, [01:14:00] during you were J Slice is, I think is what they called
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Yeah. Yeah, that's, I haven't used that name in a long time.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: was, it was, I'm surprised that the teardrops, you got those removed. Um, and there
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Very painful procedure.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: was, it was, but it looked, it looks great.
It
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Thank you.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: I'll look what you done.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Thank you.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Yeah. This is beautiful. Um, no telling people stuff. They ha they don't know yet. No, I, I think that, um, yeah, if people want to follow any of my work or any of the stuff I'm doing, you can look up Snarky faith. Um, it connects you to my main website, but also I wrote it a column on pathos, a weekly column that's called Snarky Faith.
And I also have a podcast that's called Snarky Faith. So it's, those are easier things to, to, uh, I guess to spell than my name and first name and last name. So,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: So it's, and it's Snarky faith.com, right?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: faith.com, or you can just look up the word snarky, faith, and it'll lead you to any of the avenues, um, that your pastor doesn't want you to go down.
So it is, I,
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: how deep the rabbit hole goes?
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: is this, this, this, this, this podcast that you were on, I'm on right now, and mine as well. I feel like these are [01:15:00] the slippery slopes that we were warned about.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: yes.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: and you, you were doing this is you, you're socially lubricating these slopes to make them slippery.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: I found wine helps. So you just send you right on your way.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: It was.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: Well, Stewart, it has been delight to digitally get to know you. I enjoyed your book. I'm excited for more people to laugh at bad theology and hopefully arrive at something more beautiful that actually makes us more like Jesus. And I think your book is a great tool for that.
So dear listeners, grab a copy. Go check out Snarky Faith and uh, Stuart, thank you for sitting down with us and spending time today.
stuart-delony_1_02-19-2026_150456: Oh, I loved it. I loved it. Thank you. I loved any reason to day drink and you're my favorite day drinking partner from now on. So, yeah.
jeremy_1_02-19-2026_130456: There we go. We'll take that. Alright everybody, we'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray.
