Psychological Safety (with Anthony Parrott) | Ep. 69

March 25, 2026

What does it actually take for a church to be a safe place? Anthony Parrott, co-pastor of Table Church DC, has spent 17 years in ministry and a lifetime accumulating enough theology to know when it stops being honest. In this conversation, he and Jeremy trace a winding path through open and relational theology, trauma competency, why packaging spiritual formation into a program is its own kind of abuse, and what it looks like to pastor a church where the point is not to have it all figured out. Anthony is a guy who will tell you exactly what he thinks about Augustine, John Piper, and a white Malbec he found at Wegmans, and somehow it all fits together.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/4bxba43_Twk

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My new book, The Edge of the Inside, releases March 31. You can get a signed copy or in whatever form you prefer: https://www.edgeoftheinside.com/

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Episode Transcript

Psychological Safety (with Anthony Parrott) | Ep. 69
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[00:00:00] Well, hey friends, this Tuesday my new book comes out March 31st, the Edge of the Inside. This is a book that has taken me the last five, six years to write. It's my journey from being a lead pastor to what I'm doing today and how it has caused me to rethink God in the process. And I think this is gonna be an encouragement for you as well.

you can Check it out at edge of the inside.com.

Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith.

And today we've got a guy with a really cool name. Anthony Parrot is with us. He is a pastor of a local church. He's been in ministry for 17 years. And is currently co-leading, the Table Church DC with another pastor.

He's the husband to Emily, father, to Audrey and Wesley, and he is interested in open and relational theology, which we get into in this episode, competent Care and reading the Bible with Love and Liberation. This is a guy [00:01:00] who embodies Jesus, looks like Jesus and is. Questioning a lot of things that you may be questioning and yet has figured out a way to do that within the church and to do it as a pastor.

And I think he offers a really unique voice in all of this conversation. So this is episode 69, psychological Safety.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would've no idea. Stephen A. Smith would've no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.

Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at Universal Spirit. This is the [00:02:00] strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.

How if I get a little loopy. It's your follow up. You told me to drink it. I just show up. I'll also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery, you've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.

We're gonna sit down a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way You're doing it in the. Beautiful positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.

It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine that. Very unique. I never thought [00:03:00] of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.

You had me with herbaceous notes. I want you to know I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine. By myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh, I got a little spicy there.

It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is, here we are. Here we are. Beer, we are, no, it's wine. Jeremy, by the way, drinking this peanut regio at three o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guest drink wine. It makes sense now.

Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast throwing the wine bit in there. That's nice, doesn't it? Cabernet and Prey. Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Well, today's guest has some of the coolest glasses you will ever [00:04:00] see. Welcome to the podcast, Anthony.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: You are rivaling Greg Boyd as I think the coolest glasses we've had, uh, on an episode of this podcast.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: high praise. I don't mind that, uh, comparison at all and it's been a minute since I've actually, you know, looked at quick point slash should go make sure that I actually appreciate what you're saying.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: He, he is rocking some red glasses these days. And um, what's so funny is this, the, the first time I saw him wearing these, I was like, what, what's the story behind these? And he forgot his glasses one day and someone let him like, borrow these red ones and then he got tons of compliments. So then he just is basically like, Hey, I'm just gonna keep these red ones.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I mean, that's the a hundred percent what happens. 'cause I got these on a whim and then get compliments at on them all the time from every like cashier or whatever. And I'm just like, okay, this is my color now I can't change.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I mean, it kind of becomes like your signature look.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. And now like orange is my thing. I've got the orange iPhone and I've got [00:05:00] orange pins and orange shoes, so, uh, yeah.

I'm gonna stick with it.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: So those of you who are only listening to this, he's wearing orange glasses. If you, if you're trying to put these context clues together of what, what are we talking about?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yes,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: very cool. And I just, I had to comment on it 'cause I, I, I dig it and here's what I've learned. You know, I once had a pair of red shoes that I thought were, so this was when Toms was big.

I don't know if you recall that. And I had a pair of red Toms that I thought were so cool. And I wear 'em one time preaching, and I got blown up by people. Commenting on these shoes. And it was almost like they were like, Hey, we have like, uh, an acceptable realm of colors that you're allowed to wear, and you have exceeded that, you know?

And I, I was like so blown. I mean, like, the amount of like dozens of people made comments to me about my shoes. I never wore 'em again. And I was so self-conscious. And so now, you know, I've, I've grown since then. So now I try to embrace it. And whenever I see someone that's like, okay, you probably got comments about that.

Like, I celebrate that [00:06:00] about you. So

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: you. Thank you.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: this is my own healing journey, Anthony.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: that's right. We, we, I mean there's probably, we could do all sorts of stuff about what we wear and what that says about our psyches. Uh, yeah. There's a pair of red pants I used to wear every Christmas season, uh, like red chinos and, and people are always like, okay, it must be Christmas.

Anthony's pulled out the red pants.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: So I've concluded from all of that that I think independence is offensive to people.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think you're right.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: When you don't follow along with what everyone else does, it's somehow, and I don't, this is like way more psychology than I understand, but somehow it triggers people of like, you are, you're not doing enough yourself. So they get defensive for some reason.

But like, you know, whenever someone does something or like someone, like I had a friend who grew like tried to see how big he could grow his beard just for fun

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Sure,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: and got the same kind of comments. People were like, Hey, he's still growing the beard, huh? And it was like, why do you care how long his beard is?

But it was just like, Hey, we have acceptable rules of what you can and can't do. And that's, that was my takeaway. I was like, I think [00:07:00] independence is offensive to people.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: freedom can be a trigger. I once, uh, I hate ties. Uh, and the church I was at before, it was more common to preach in a tie. And so I did the whole like, you know, sort of gym from the office. Like the tie was there, but it was loose and there was a button undone. And, um, Sloan's mother, may she rest in peace, she came up to me and is, she was very stern, she said, Anthony. This is not a fashion show, and then just sort of like trotted away, like I, I'm sorry, I, I don't feel like the need to, uh, choke myself every time I get up to preach.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Nice. Well, here you are. You found yourself and we celebrate you.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Thank you. Thank you.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: So let's talk about what we're drinking and then we're gonna have a fun conversation together. I am drinking a 2023 Grenache. This is from Story of Soil as from California, and just a beautiful light color as you would expect, a Grenache.

And this thing is very [00:08:00] fruit forward in some fun ways. I'm getting dried. Strawberry, red grapefruit, and orange peel. So kind of that, that bite of that citrus, no, is what I'm getting. And. Weather's warming up in Arizona. I'm enjoying it. It feels nice. So that's what I'm sipping on. What? What have you got in your glass?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. So I, uh, went to my grocery store, Wegman, shout out to Wegman's, the best grocery store, and typed in Malbec. 'cause I knew I, I'm not a wine connoisseur. I, I don't know what Grenache is, but I knew I liked Malbecs and I typed it in and up came a white Malbec. Uh, so for those who don't have video, you're looking at me holding up a glass of a Malbec, which is supposed to be a red wine.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: red, it is white. Uh, so when I got it, I was curious like, is it gonna taste like a red wine? But they just somehow remove the color, uh, which is not how wine works, I realize, but like, no, it tastes like a white wine, but it's using Malbec grapes. Uh, and it's on the fruity side. Like it's, it's lighter and not [00:09:00] particularly dry. Um, but it's good, it's flavor, it's flavorful. It's a 2024, uh, artisan Day Argento. It's a grocery store wine. So I don't think it's anything particularly fancy, but it meets the moments. 'cause it is not warming up in DC We've had an unusually cold and snowy winter

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah, you guys are going the opposite direction.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Oh my gosh. It's been awful.

Yes.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Well cheers to you and cheers to any of our listeners if you are able to enjoy a glass with us today as well.

Okay. Question. I love to ask people so that our listeners can get a feel for your journey. A little bit about you is, if you were to look at the last 10 years of your life, last 10 years of your own faith journey, how would you describe that? Your faith has changed just in that window of time.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. Jesus Christ. Jeremy, I you were gonna ask this question. I was like, oh, okay. So like everything, everything has happened in the

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: It's been a big 10 [00:10:00] years for you. Has it?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: years. So 10 years. I mean, we've been, we've been in the era of Trump for the past 10 years.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah. Yeah.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I, 10 years ago I was pastoring, uh, a church in northwest Iowa. you know, honestly Iowa was very conservative, but sort of they were quiet about their conservatism. And I was coming at my ministry from a fairly awe apolitical approach of, I don't need to talk about politics, I just need to talk about the gospel. Trump gets elected and things that I had assumed were sort of settled, issues were not. So when the Trump administration, the first one was caging children at the border, I threw something on my, at that time, Facebook, uh, feed and maybe my blog about how, you know, Christians should be embarrassed by this. We need to be taking a stand and got so much pushback. And I

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: that bewildering. And, you know, as things, uh, were happening with, [00:11:00] um, the murder of, uh, black folks by police and saying, Hey. You know, the police shooting, killing people on the street, particularly, uh, black folks, this is something that we cannot stand for. And getting pushback of, well, you don't know the circumstances and what were they doing And they should have disobeyed.

And then I began to feel more and more discomfort about not talking about as a preacher. Because if primary message is the kingdom, a political word of God, then why wouldn't it intersect with our politics today? Then 2018, uh, my brother died, uh, while driving drunk and he had this beautiful comeback story 'cause he had struggled with alcoholism since he was a teenager and then lost his job and went back to the bottle.

And that led to his death. it was this, you know, family tragedy that then forced me to [00:12:00] start. Rejiggering a bunch of my own theology around God's will and, um, you know, bad things happening in the world. And I was never a Calvinist. I was never like a, you know, every God means, you know, to harm people and give them cancer and death for, for his glory.

I was never like, you know, a follower of John Piper and everything. But that is what eventually pushed me into, uh, open theism and open and relational theology, uh, of understanding that God has some limits of what they're capable of doing or not doing in the world, which we can talk about. so then by that point, it was becoming more and more clear that our family was not gonna hack it much longer in Iowa 2020, that's when we moved out here to DC to pastor the Table church and got here.

My, my first act as pastor was to move everything virtual for the pandemic. Um, and then. [00:13:00] You know, pastored virtually for a year, dealt with January 6th happening in our city. Uh, and the effects that that had on our congregation becoming a pastor where my theology had to meet practicality, where I was no longer just, know, L-G-B-T-Q affirming, um, in my mind, but pastoring a church that was, you know, mostly majority queer, not just anti-racist in my head, but actually a multiracial community. And that's a very different context than Northwest

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: So, uh, have had to change A lot of how I show up as a pastor and my ma my theology has had to mature tons and tons and tons under that sort of pressure.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: That is such a, that was such a balanced and nuanced answer to that question because I think a lot of people look at maybe some of the conversations we have on this podcast and, you know, I, I can imagine. Someone may be leaning [00:14:00] more conservative would say, well, how did you arrive there? How, you know, you, you, you're taking these extreme stances.

And yet the reality is, is when you unpack it, this is a journey that many of us have walked down. And, you know, we didn't, we didn't start where we are right now. This has been like, Hey, these, these things that we're seeing are, are kind of weird. Let's, let's call 'em out. And then when you get called out for calling out things that you think are pretty simple, like I, I had, as you were talking, I, you're giving me flashbacks because I was a lead pastor when the whole immigrant in the cage thing was the story.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: you, I wrote this blog post at the time and just like thinking that this was, this was gonna be a no-brainer

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: rally the church. Yeah. We cannot believe, you know, these children,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: it's about the immigrant and the

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: right. And kids right. Pro-life. And these kids are being locked in cages. And I, I mean, I just remember thinking like, this is like not controversial.

This is like, yeah. Like this is what we do. And having an elder. My church just [00:15:00] like go off on me of like, Hey, I cannot believe you wrote that. And I just remember my own confusion, like legitimately going, what are, what am I missing here? Because I can't even fathom what you're saying to me. Like, I thought we would agree this is bad.

And it's like, no, you know, they, they, they shouldn't be doing what they're doing. And it's like, like you're saying, you know, and so then you start going, okay, well I'm gonna have to not only keep talking, but I'm gonna have to, to talk louder. I'm gonna have to raise my voice. And then what we've watched for 10 years, that's why this question is interesting with, with the current time,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yep.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: is we've watched for 10 years, the culture and the church collectively go that direction.

And then the people you know who say, Hey, I, I have a problem with this. This doesn't look like Jesus. Not only are you battling, you know, the voices of our culture, but now you're battling a lot of the church. And that's kind of a funky place to be in.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: it's a really tough place to be in and you know, I'm six years into my ministry here in [00:16:00] DC and I feel like I am only, you know, the memes come around every new years of like, here comes 2026 and I'm still processing 2020. And like, that's very much the case that I'm still coming to grips with the relationships that had to die have, uh, you know, what Cloud and Townsend called necessary conclusions, necessary

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Necessary endings. Yeah.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: necessary endings, uh, from folks that we did, we did ministry with for 10 years, we're doing a sermon series in our church right now about Jeremiah.

And Jeremiah is the prophet who failed. Right? He, he warned and warned and warned his people that this was going to happen. And they're just like, nah, nah, nothing, nothing bad's gonna happen. And then Jeremiah's the prophet who write lamentations like, it happened and the, like, Jeremiah, you know, not to pat myself on the back too much, but Jeremiah and I have like both called to ministry at the age of 14 as as young adults or young, you know, teenagers and feeling the, like [00:17:00] we, we, we told you we saw this coming.

We like, we, the, that feeling of disillusionment and disenchantment with the church that brought us up and the God that brought us up. And to see all those folks be like, nah, nothing bad's gonna happen. And if it does, if bad stuff is happening, at least it's not happening to me. And we're, we're just fine with it.

And just pulling your hair out, being, I cannot believe that these were the folks that, I thought I saw Jesus in and now they've turned away so completely. Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: It's a, it's a pretty disorienting feeling when the people who introduced you to Jesus are the ones who are concerned where Jesus has taken you.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: And I know a lot, I mean, I hate just hear a lot of these stories of like, yeah, you know, I'm, I'm having this conversation with my parents or my community or my, you know, family members and.

They're super concerned about me, and yet I, I just following Jesus, like they introduced me to Jesus [00:18:00] and it, and I, I think that's what a lot of people are wrestling with right now. It's like, how do you navigate that? Like these are the people that introduced me,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: and then they look at you and go, you know, you've gone off the deep end.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah, yeah. I, I'm still one who does believe in, uh, invisible powers, so things like demons and principalities and things like that, and. I, nothing is mono causal. I know there's a a thousand causes for everything that's happening in the United States and world right now, but I think at least one of those causes are these invisible powers because the sort of, Hmm. Spiritual inability to see or understand seems supernatural to me that

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: can be so blatantly and so obviously evil and wrong, and for folks to confuse that with Jesus.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I don't know what else to [00:19:00] ascribe that to, but something supernatural supernaturally evil.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Well, and then you, you talk about these idea of like, strongholds, right? Like, like the stronghold of racism in the history of the United States. Like there it's not, it's not just an evil, it, it is a, a particularly, you know, kind of evil that has roots deeper down than I think any of us have any real idea of.

And you know, there's people who are trying to tell us how deep it goes, and yet those voices often get sidelined of like, Hey, yeah, it's not that bad. But yeah, we're systemic evils and some of these things we're going up against. And yet I I, I'm grateful for you and for your voice on this podcast because a lot of times, you know, I try to have guests that, that are thinking critically, thinking deeply about Jesus, but in all different arenas, you know, I've had guests on here that are, are.

Uh, still intrigued by Jesus, but don't follow Jesus anymore. I've had, you know, pastors who used to be pastors and then they left and, you know, all, all, all walks of this, right. [00:20:00] Professors and scholars and all this you are currently in, in the ministry, you're currently in the trenches. And so I think it's helpful to have, you know, perspective from someone who you are, you are addressing these things that you're seeing.

You're also doing it in a pastoral role, currently shepherding a community. And you know, I I think it's helpful to hear all that. One of the things I appreciate about you and, and I, this comes out in a lot of the, the stuff that you write and a lot of the things that you say online, you really have a heart for people and this idea of healing and healing from trauma and you've been very vulnerable sharing some of your own journey.

And I'd love just to, to dive into this a little bit because I think a lot of people. It's been said of like millennials that, like millennials are the first generation that are not only healing themselves, but then also trying to heal backwards. Like we're, we're, we're doing all that healing work and you know, I, I, I regularly meet with a therapist and, you know, it's, it's incredible and I think we're, we're the generation that's kind of made it okay to talk about, you know, there's obviously [00:21:00] been counseling before, but it was kinda like, we don't really talk about it.

And now we're like, no, it's, it's healthy. Lots of us have things, you know, in the past they're like, Hey, this really hurt and this is a wound. And, uh, some of the things that you have shared, you, you've shared that you didn't know your biological father

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: your biological mother was mentally ill and you only lived with her till you were seven.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: That's a lot. The first seven years alone. Right. Obviously then that carries into, uh, the years after that. But just the start of your life, having all of that, um, has been a lot. And then one of the things you, you recently wrote that I just thought was so moving was you writing about how you had this epiphany, you weren't really held as a child, and how that has shaped you as an adult.

And 2, 2, 2 things. One observation, then a question. The observation is, I applaud you for just the sense in which you are navigating your own journey publicly. That is then a model for others, right. To [00:22:00] go, here's what's happened. Here's how I'm processing it, here's how I'm trying to connect it in real time, not like.

I'm all healed. All that's great. This is, you know, it doesn't, it's like No, no, no. I just had this realization like, you know, like that takes tremendous courage and I, I just wanna applaud you on that. But the second one is, what do you think you've learned in your own journey of this, of, of healing and as an adult now, what, what are some of those insights that you have found that you can offer to other people in their own journey?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Sure. Sure. First thing that comes to mind is I, so, Thumbnail sketch of my, my life story was, yeah, I lived with my biological mother until I was seven. She suffered from severe paranoia, schizophrenia, and schizophrenia is not the like hearing mul, you know, hearing voices in your head or multiple personality disorder.

It is a fractured person, single personality. Uh, and the paranoia piece is just the inability to trust anyone or anything, institutions or people. So I was born with a hole in my heart, multiple [00:23:00] holes in my heart, uh, bunch of birth defects that were left untreated for those first seven or eight years. 'cause she had no trust of the medical system. Uh, so I was slowly sort of suffocating from a lack of oxygen while being treated, you know, cared well, cared for in quotation mark, neglected and abused by my biological mother. And. I was then put into the foster care system, and I've always eventually adopted. And there is, um, within Evangelicalism, we love a good testimony, right?

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah, we do.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: testimony was packaged, was, made into a commodity. I used that testimony from like the age of like, I got saved. I was always in the church, but I sort of gave my life to Jesus when I was like 12. And then was active in my youth group from like 13 forward, knew I wanted to be a pastor from really early on.

And so was used this commodity in my testimony [00:24:00] for years. And it wasn't until I, it wasn't until the death of my brother and I started more, uh, actually doing therapy where I realized that my life had become a commodity, uh, something that I could package up pretty and put a bow on it. And here's a beautiful life story about how God rescued me from the terrible s. Uh, and so when I, when I realized that that is what had happened to my own life and I was talking about me as a 7-year-old, as some other person, uh, then I, you know, with the help of the therapist shut that all down and I did not talk about my own. life for, uh, a, a good long time. Uh, because as preachers, as pastors, you're sort of encouraged to, um, you know, cut, cut yourself and bleed into your sermon and share that with a congregation so it gets a good response.

And there's nothing really, I understand the impulse, right? Like when I teach preachers how to preach, [00:25:00] you want there to be some personal aspect that you're giving. And also, like, I don't, I don't know if you should be cutting yourself and,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: pouring your own lifeblood in that sort of way. So I shut that down for a long time so I could continue and actually start some healing work of recognizing like, oh, no, no, no.

All those things I was calling like a good and wonderful testimony of rescue were actually a whole bunch of traumas and ruptures, relational ruptures in my life that were. Setting me in patterns that would continue for decades without my noticing, of needing to be a rescuer and to hide imperfections and all of the, that sort of stuff. And a constant state of anxiety about every single relationship. Then, uh, as I was beginning to learn that about myself and the effects of trauma on the brain and on development and on myself, then I was recognizing all of [00:26:00] that in my faith as well, and the faith of so many other people. we also have an attachment relationship with. Whatever it is that we call God. And that can be filled with anxiety or fear. It can be filled with, um, you know, the, the God of judgment and anger or not. You know, I did not have a father figure for the first 10 years of my life. And so, uh, trying to port that all onto God, but I didn't know. All I knew about God is that God was angry about, uh, all of my mistakes and if, if I didn't confess those mistakes and he had no choice but to condemn me to help, like all of that stuff, which of course then affects how I see my own parents and it just becomes this vicious cycle. So then as I am beginning to understand that like, oh, this is affecting people's spiritual lives as well. That really began to hone in my sort of life work of. Oh, I don't want to just be a pastor who's really good at, uh, [00:27:00] proclaiming the gospel, gospel centered ministry and all that jazz. Uh, I want to help people heal from their relational and spiritual, uh, and, you know, turns out lots of other kinds of trauma as well. Um, and the work of that healing is, it is life work, it's lifelong, and it can't be coercive. Um. So much of spiritual formation and discipleship in, in church churches that I've experienced is like, Hey, we, we need to coerce you to grow in some way, as opposed to any, what any good childhood development expert would talk about, which is creating environments in which people can grow into who they really are. but you've got a bunch of Christians and pews and they're like, Hey, you are an acorn and we want to turn you into an airplane, as opposed to like, Hey, you're an acorn and we want, we wanna create, you, put you in an environment, you can grow into an oak tree. Uh, and I'm sick and tired of, of spiritual environments, church environments that like are [00:28:00] just trying to mechanize growth, uh, coercively and turn it into, well, you know, an industry of some sort.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Well, because. That's what, then the, those are the tangible results,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: We love our tangible, we

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: right?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: we love charts that go up and to the right.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I mean, truly, when you have KP KPIs in a church, which many churches do, is, is a funky thing to what are we measuring? How, how do we, how do we define success? You know? And the, the two most common ones are obviously attendance and then giving.

Those are the easiest kind of holistic things that you can measure as well. We're growing

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: there's more butts in the seats and you know, the giving's up and into the right and things must be good, but then you start trickling down. You know, I, I found baptism numbers are another huge one where it's like, well, obviously we're, we're dialed in because look at these baptism numbers and, and yet, you know, a lot, a lot of the times you look under the [00:29:00] hood of these people being baptized and.

It's kind of a one and done. We saved you, you gave your, get at a hell, you know, free card, and you, you didn't become a different person. It wasn't a transformational moment. It wasn't, Hey, I began this profound journey or anything. It was, Hey, I crossed the line. I'm good. And you know, I've, I've heard hilarious stories about people who, literally, one of the funniest ones the pastor was told me is this guy in this church was getting baptized.

As he comes up out of the water, he looks over and he notices that one of the musicians on the stage he had beef with, like, for some, he had something and he like books it to this guy to like try and like fight him right after he was baptized. You know? And it's just like, Hey, I think maybe

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: we should slow it down a little bit.

And like, maybe that one was rushed. Like maybe let's give it some time.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: story goes. If you go to the altar and you have,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yes.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: there's something you have against your brother, go and fight him,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah. I, I think [00:30:00] that's a little different understanding of, of what, you know, he was bringing that day. I just remember thinking like, okay, I think we should measure more than that. Right. And I love what you're talking about, and the phrase that came to mind as I was listening to you is the idea of liminal space.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: space is where you have left behind where you were, you're on your way to something new, but you're not there yet. So you're in this in-between. And you know, as I was listening to you talk, I'm like, that's the, that's the tricky part in church community is that you, you have to create that culture like you're saying for the acorn to be able to grow.

But there might be a while that acorn is still under the ground

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: and nothing, you don't see anything. Right. And it's the liminal space. It's not a tree yet. It's not, it has not grown into what it could be, but it's not just the acorn anymore. And so you can't measure it. It doesn't show up on your KPIs. It doesn't, it doesn't give you the story of, look what God is doing in this community.

And yet I think we both would argue the church could be doing absolutely what the [00:31:00] church needs to do in providing that environment. So how do we, how do we create communities? How do we create spaces for the liminal space, for the in-between? Because I suspect many people listening to this are probably really familiar with liminal space and the feeling of that in their own journey.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So because of my own story, I've done a bunch of training on like trauma, competency and, and trauma competent care. the, you know, the good news, bad news of trauma is that it does change your brain. It changes your physiology and your psychology, and there is the possibility of healing, and that's where you have to create psychologically safe environments for people to experience that healing. And psychological safety is a very individual thing.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: it is not something that you can package up and produce, uh, on mass. It's actually just talking to a friend of mine who's a, [00:32:00] um, uh, he is a public health expert in like gun violence, gun safety, and criminal justice. And he was talking about a. Treatment program that was designed by, it was basically by black men for black men, um, on, you know, dealing with violence, uh, gun violence, uh, things like that, criminal justice. it was a very successful program. And so they were trying to bring it to, um, like drug treatment courts. the drug treatment court said, great, we love this.

We're gonna give it to this white dude who's a former sheriff. And it's not just gonna be for black men, it's gonna be for everybody. And come and find out that program feels miserably because everything that was unique and special and particular to Toit had been, you know, literally sort of whitewashed and homogenized and generalized across this massive population.

And so it all, it all just failed. And [00:33:00] that's where any sort of spiritual formation or discipleship that happens in the church, anything that's supposed to bring you growth. healing that you try to homogenize does not create felt safety because it's basically saying your problems, your trauma, your story, ah, we can apply that to everybody.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: like that's the opposite of safety that makes you feel. Like a cog in the machine, and I'm hypersensitive to that. Um, our church, this was before my time, uh, was really a big fan of, uh, arc, the Associ Association of Related Churches. And they put out this program called Growth Tracks. And Growth Tracks is supposed to be this newcomer assimilation pathway and like just the word assimilation gives me hives, right, of we are going to make you fit, squeeze into the Play-Doh mold of this church.

And in terms of a success rate of getting volunteers, it was great. But in terms of creating safety where people felt like they could grow, it was atrocious because it was, [00:34:00] Hey, we're gonna make you do a, a spiritual guest assessment in 15 minutes. Turns out every one of those spiritual gifts lines up perfectly with one of the volunteer teams that you can join on a Sunday.

How about that coincidence? That is not, that does not create safety and that does not heal people from trauma. And in any given room of two or more people, there is going to be. Unique individual hurts and pains and hangups and traumas and scars and wounds that have to be cared for, intended for, which is why I just get very suspicious of any sort of institution or program in spiritual spaces. And C Christians are particularly egregiously guilty of this, but it's not just Christians. Any sort of religious or spiritual program that says like, Hey, we're gonna copy and paste this onto you and you're gonna have success in 10 days or less. Uh, is it's lying to you and it's just setting you up for more wounds.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Well, it almost becomes the, the prosperity preacher, you know, hitting you with the coat. You're supposed to fall [00:35:00] down. And so it's like, you know, I'm supposed to fall down. That's what happens when this happens. I think a lot of people, okay, I'm, I'm in this assimilation model. This is what, this is what I do, this is what happens.

So it's like you convince yourself of it. 'cause you want it, you want it to be true.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: And what you're saying is like that, that doesn't, that doesn't create the real environment of what you might actually need. And so then there's gonna be a point of dissonance there where you've gone with the model, you, you've, you've tried to make it true 'cause you want it to be true, but then you're like, oh, this isn't actually meeting my unique situation or what I'm going through.

And, and I love that image of like, we, we have to figure out how do we create safe environments truly for, for everybody. And it's way messy when you think about how, how complex the amount of people and what they're bringing in. And then we try to systematize it.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. Yeah. It is very, very messy. And it's a very funny context doing it in DC because, uh, DC uh, we fit the cliches of like, we've got a bunch of lawyers at our church, who love policy, and I'm like, [00:36:00] yeah, we can't policy this. It's gonna be, it's gonna be much trickier and stickier yeah, we, you as a community. And I think this puts a ceiling on how big a community can get as a community. You have to decide, are we okay with, uh, this kind of happening? Um, and being, you know, a big part of trauma competency is always being clear and forthright about expectations. So when, you know, if I have a, a lunch or coffee with a newcomer, you should know, uh, no one's trying particularly hard to pretend to be perfect here. so don't expect that. Uh, and that may mean that you're, you're going like, there's going to be conflict and there's going to be hurt. And that's like the not something we're necessarily proud of. We're not aiming to hurt people. Uh, but when you have a bunch of people who have been [00:37:00] hurt, uh, then it's gonna come up again. Um. Yeah. And you have to be forthright and and forthcoming about that. And some people are like, no, no. I'd much rather go to a church that's got it shit figured out and that that's fine. I can point you in the right direction. Uh, but if you're willing to hang with some folks who are very willing to admit I don't have my shit and it figured out, uh, then this might be the place for you.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I love that. That's a refreshing honesty there. Okay. You, you mentioned something earlier, I wanna follow up on you. You talked about what happened with your brother. Sounds like that was a turning point for you with open and relational theology

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: that you, you had to, you had to rework. Probably your idea of God and how God interacted to make sense of what was going on.

Um, you and I both share a love for open and relational theology. It's something that in the spaces I come from, it is, it is viewed as a heresy. And when I started getting into it, I had no, no end of [00:38:00] warnings of people telling me how slippery the slope is. And I'm, a few decades in now, I still love Jesus,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: the spaces you come from?

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: a very evangelical, um, megachurch, uh, Christian Church denomination background.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: got it. Yep.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: so, um, you know, which again, had had a lot of good things to it that I, I really enjoyed. Theologically, it's a, it's a very guarded space where, you know, it's, a lot of these other traditions are viewed very skeptically. And so when I started, I almost got, I almost lost my ordination over this because at that point I hadn't, I hadn't figured it all out yet, but I was, you know, in my twenties and I'm like, yeah, there's like this thing with Hezekiah that's kind of messing with me.

And, you know, I think God can change his mind and like all this stuff, and, you know, the elder board that was assigned to me like was not, not having it, but early on I was like, this doesn't, there's gotta be more to this. Well, then I kept going down that road and obviously I'm, I'm fully in it now, and so I'm always curious when I meet someone else that, that has [00:39:00] found a home in this theology and this way of understanding.

I'm curious more of like, what was your journey into it? What did this offer you in that season that you're like, oh wow, this, this makes way more sense than any other way of trying to, to process this?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. Yeah. So on my first introduction with it, so, uh, backing up, okay. Grew up once I was adopted, then, uh, was in a very conservative and very fundamentalist space. Uh, so, um, homeschooled in, uh, Pensacola Christian Academy, Abeka Schools, uh, KJV, only

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Oh yeah,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: fundamental Baptist sort of environments.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: if it's good enough for Jesus, good enough for you, right.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: right. uh, the, you know, my church was, you know, very classic rapture theology, dispensationalist, all of that sort of stuff. But the denominational college, Bethel now university in Milwaukee, Indiana, so not the Bethel in Minneapolis, but the one in Indiana, um, was actually, uh, [00:40:00] not that and had a really great religion philosophy department at the time, uh, which has since then been sort of killed by the denomination.

Go figure. they were the first ones who introduced me to, um, sort of the spectrum of, you know, all the way from hard determinism, Calvinism to process theology.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Well, I'm, I'm amazed that you even introduced it.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: The, they that college did an astoundingly good job of educating and not indoctrinating, like just really, really well done. And that was honestly like, I didn't have a classic of deconstruction.

We didn't call it that back in the early two thousands, but classic deconstruction, it was just like gradual education coming to being allowed to come to my own conclusions, which was really, really great. Um, coming out of fundamentalism. but process theology open relational theology did not appeal to me. I think we read like a four views book that had, um, like a process theologian and I'm pretty

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Oh yeah. Divine [00:41:00] Foreknowledge Four views that, that was the book that changed me

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah, that was so that the book

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: because that's the, that was the book. It's so funny you bring that book up. That book was the first time I ever heard of the Open View of God,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Was

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: so I didn't even know it existed.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Who

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: What's that?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: was

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: That was Greg Boyd.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. Okay.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: So, so then that takes me on the road where I'm like, who's this Greg Boyd guy?

Then I read God of the Possible, and then I'm off and running. But that was how that book, it's just funny you mentioned, I, I still keep that book on my bookshelf because it was like, I, I don't think I'll ever read it again, but it was just so emotional, like that book found me at the right time.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah, that's great. That's fantastic. I, so it did not do it for me at the time because I think at that point I was coming out of the sort of Bap Baptist four point Tulip dispensationalist sort of thing, and

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: weren't ready yet.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: View, I, that was what settled in me was the sort of classic free will arminianism and so all the pro or open stuff, sort of laid rest [00:42:00] for a while.

Then did seminary at Asbury Theological, again, by any standard, a conservative evangelical seminary, but. Again, also had professors who were really good at educating and not indoctrinating. And so it was in some of my theology courses where we started to explore, um, the open and process side of that spectrum where I began to move that to direction. Uh, but as you said, and as I said, like the death of my brother this crisis to really start thinking these things through. I, I've been blessed with the, I don't know, the mindset that I've never, I've never questioned the existence of God or the goodness of God. That has always been sort of bedrock core to me.

And I say blessed in that I don't begrudge anybody who has not had that experience. Um, there are [00:43:00] plenty of reasons to doubt the existence in goodness of God. A hundred percent understand that. So to me, it's not any sort of like. Pat on my own back. It is just like, it's not something I've struggled with. So when David died and I was like, well, if I believe God is good, then how do I make sense of the world as it is? And you know, CS Lewis talks about this in a grief observed when he's writing about the death of his wife joy the sort of like guilt, shame, but also inevitable feeling of world has had suffering in it since forever. Why is it that it's only upon the death of my loved one that I begin to, you know, question all of these things? But that's where I was. And so that's when I went back to the Four Views book and went back to Greg, Greg Void and started reading up again on Open Theism. [00:44:00] And this is where the trauma piece comes in for me of I. Simply cannot, like there is just a block in my brain, heart and soul. cannot believe in a coercive God. So, you know, my mom was the sort, my adoptive mom was the sort who would thank God for a good parking spot, uh, at the grocery store. And I just remember thinking as a kid, like, does that mean? Like God had to play chess with everybody's lives. To make it so that at this exact moment, at this exact time, Deb Parrott gets a parking spot. I don't like that at all. And fast forward, you know, 20 years to the death of my brother and thinking like, okay, if that's true, if God is not playing chess, then what are all the things that God is un uh, uncapable of doing? That of course [00:45:00] very quickly leads to reading, uh, Dr. Or Thomas Ord and God can't, and the, we know that there are things God can't do. God cannot lie. God cannot, uh, you know, reject his own, um, creation. All go down the list. Um, can God create evil? God, um, create suffering? And can God, um, God capable of stopping suffering and just refuses not to because of some. dimensional chess that God is playing. Or is it rather that God has created the world and such, uh, and the way the doctor or would put it, um, you know, God is the kind of God creates the kind of world that God is not going to intervene, uh, because it's against their non-coercive nature. And as someone who experienced [00:46:00] neglect and abuse and, was passed around from foster family to foster family, I have to believe that God is not that kind of coercive God that is plain nine dimensional chess with all of our lives. And I find that, you know, I, I think you people do typically tend to split of, some people find that deeply disturbing some people find it deeply comforting. And I'm one that finds it deeply comforting of think. God, that God is not playing nine dimensional chess with our lives and that God sees the pain and the trauma and the hurt and the pain.

And it's not that God saw it, predicted it, saw it coming in the future and chose to do nothing. 'cause that to me is just inexcusable.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: that God exists, I have no interest in worshiping that God.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: it's that God is given creation, freedom and that God cannot single-handedly coercively [00:47:00] change people in circumstances to prevent pain. and rather is the kind of God who enters into the world, uh, to experience that pain along with us.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: That's beautiful. I remember talking to Tom Ward after he wrote, God Can't,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I asked him that question. I said. Are people encouraged by this? Or discouraged? And you know, if you hand that book to someone who just lost a brother, who lost a loved one, who you know,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: and you say, well, God couldn't, couldn't do that.

Is that an encouraging idea or discouraging? And you know, obviously he's, he's like, it's very encouraging, you know? And I have since found, I think it, it's dependent on your personality. Um, 'cause I think it's the way you make sense of things. And so I have found, you know, it, it, it is encouraging to me, it's compelling to me.

Everything you just said, I go Amen, amen, amen.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yep.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: And yet, I've also met the people, you know, and, and [00:48:00] I, I've pastor through people who lost a child. And I remember sitting through that, processing that grief with them, and they said, well, God, this must be what God wanted. And I, and I remember in that moment.

I'm like, okay, I'm giving them space to grieve. This is, this is their grief. But also I feel like they're adding another layer to it that makes it worse, you know? And so I try to just very gently say, Hey, I, you know, I think you can make room that it wasn't God that took your child from you, that, that there is a different way of understanding this and that God is equally grieving with you.

And they just were like, no, no, no, absolutely not. Like this is God, you know, and, and that, but it was their way of, of finding peace with it.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: so again, I was like, okay, I'm gonna let you have your grief.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: a, it's a be pastoral malpractice, be like, let's talk theology.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Right? Right. But everything inside of me is like, no, no, no. That kind of God's a monster. You know, like, that's, don't, don't, don't conclude that, but [00:49:00] also like you're grieving and you know, you gotta process it. This is where, you know, some people like, we're the kind of guys I, I assume you are too, that, you know, love reading theology books.

These are the books that a lot of people would never want to read in a million years, or they would fall asleep reading, right? And so I, it's like I'm aware I read the books that other people don't want to read. You know, I, I, I get it. I acknowledge that.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yep. I.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: but this is not just some intellectual, it tickles my brain and it feels good.

It, it directly intersects with how we make sense of pain,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: with grief, with suffering. And those are massive things that when you are dealing with them, then you pull upon whatever theology you've got because you start realizing my world is crashing down around me. I can't make sense of anything. And then you start going, what is God doing in all this?

And that's when you need that theological framework. So even like my own journey, you know, when I stepped away from being lead pastor 2020, the roughest most brutal season [00:50:00] of my life. And the sense of loss and all of that. And everyone always asks me like, are you in God? Okay.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Mm.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: It's like, God and I are fine because I had theologically already worked all this out the church, and I have some work to do, but God and I are fine.

You know? And it was like, that's why theology matters. That's why if you're listening to this podcast and you're like, yeah, some of these ideas, I never thought about these. Like, this is why these conversations matter, because when you get into these situations, you start drawing upon, okay, how do you make sense

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: of pain and suffering?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. If, excuse me, if I ever end up doing doctoral work, it's gonna be at this intersection of trauma, competency and, uh, open and relational theology, because I just think that the, the, yeah, the cross pollination between those two are so ripe for real life implications. Uh, if we are worshiping a God that is, [00:51:00] capable of stopping pain but chooses not to, is a, um, sort of a sin of omission, uh, or a trauma of omission.

It's a form of neglect. Um. You know, and Scott McKnight talks a lot about this of, there's two kinds of pastoral abuse and that is the sort of active pastoral abuse. I am going to actively harm you as a pastor. I'm gonna do something, you know, sexual abuse, physical abuse, whatever. There's also neglect of I'm gonna be, um, you know, I'm gonna be the mega church pastor of 2000 and you, I will never know your name you will end up at the hospital and I will never be aware because there's just too many of you for me to do it.

Or even, you know, the Church of a hundred and, um, I'm going to withhold relationship for you because you stopped tithing. Um, that's, that's abuse as well. similarly, if we have concocted a theology of God that says God is capable of fixing all of our problems, but [00:52:00] we haven't prayed hard enough, we didn't have enough faith, we sinned when we were in third grade, whatever. So God's not gonna fix your problems. That's a different kind of abuse of God. It's a, it's a, the abuse of neglect and that's going to do some, real work, some real nasty work on our souls, if that's the God that we are turning our attention to and worship and prayer and all of that of, oh, I just need to appease this God a little bit more and maybe I won't have so much pain.

I would much, much rather believe that God is with me in the pain, uh, that God is Emmanuel in the pain, uh, and that God is doing everything within their power as a non-coercive God Help the world in, in its pain. And that also there are lots of other powers that are working against God's will and God because of their nature, is not going to override their will. is a God I'd much rather be interested in. [00:53:00] It is not causing me neglect and abuse because that God is active, that God is doing everything within their power and that God does not single handedly coercively, uh, change the world, uh, and change people's minds and brains and wills in order to get what they want. Uh, Rob Bell asked that question, what years and years ago, and I think Velvet Elvis, maybe it was, uh, God wants to say Christians too. But, uh, the idea of that, does God always get what they want? No, of course not. God cannot possibly be getting what they want. Look at the world, look at the pain. If you answer yes to that question, then you have lived a life that is just completely and totally blind and, uh, uh, insensitive to the pain in the world. And that's where, you know, I, the first 10 years of my ministry, I worked in a reformed church, uh, so with a Calvinist framework.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Wow.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: [00:54:00] that's where I can get really fired up pretty quickly of like, if you can look at the world at John Piper and say, yes, God is getting exactly what they want out of this, then that God is no better than Satan.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Well, and then you, I mean you,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: you have us drink wine? Jesus Christ, Jeremy.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: because we get, we get these beautiful hot takes from you that you're, that you're dropping right now. You know, you get, you get to these specific situations of like, Hey, God, can you, can you heal? You know, can you heal my daughter? Can you, you know, and it's like, no.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: It's like, oh, so you could, but you just choose not to.

And then to me, you know, and this is what or does such a, a brilliant job of is, then you, you have this monstrous view of God that you can't avoid because you start going, why is God arbitrarily? You know? It's like, well, God could do all these things. God is all powerful, but God just, it's busy. You know, God just didn't, didn't have a chance to, or [00:55:00] for some holy reason that you don't understand.

Chose not to.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: of the tapestry. That was always the metaphor

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: group of the tapestry's. Beautiful. But if you look on the backside, it's ugly, and you're just looking at the backside now, but someday in heaven, you'll see the front side of the tapestry and it'll be gorgeous. I'm like, no, there is no world in which the death of my daughter or the death of my brother or whatever, uh, is made beautiful.

Absolutely not.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah. Amen to that. Alright, on that note, let's transition. I want to ask you

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I'm

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: a couple wine questions. Then we're gonna ask, uh, we're gonna ask you some questions that we'd like to ask each guest and see how your answers compare.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Okay.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: So, to begin with, and this can be anything, if I were to say, Anthony, what's the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life?

Is there a story that comes to your mind? Is it who you were with, where you were type, type of wine you were drinking? What, what is that moment for you to go? That was the best wine I've ever had.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah, so I've got two stories. One is a sort of a white [00:56:00] whale story. We were, um, we were at a pastoral retreat in Kalispell, Montana, outside of Glacier National Park. And my wife Emily and I, um, were able to experience the mountains, do some hiking, and then had dinner at this Italian restaurant. And the sad thing about the story is, I don't know what the wine was.

It was this wonderful glass of white wine that, uh, we both loved and particularly my wife Emily loved. And we didn't take a photo of the menu. They didn't have a website. Uh, we flew away and never got the name of it. And it's like, what was it? We'll never know. It's gone. It was a wonderful glass of wine and it is, it is lost to the history.

The sands of time.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I mean, do you feel like you could ever like Google your, your retrace your steps and try to figure this out?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: we did Google and tried to retrace our steps and probably should have just called the restaurant at that point and [00:57:00] been like, what was the line? Uh, but now that's been 10 years ago. So it's too, it's too late.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: It's, it, it is. The white will, it's gone. Sw boy,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: gone. And then the second one, again, like I, I'm not a connoisseur, so I like, I couldn't tell you.

I just could tell you that, uh, again, me and my wife Emily, we were in, uh, Italy and Italy knows a thing or two about a

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: they, they do, they've, they've got wine figured out.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yes. And so we were at one of those restaurants down and the Mediterranean Ocean where they serve you, the fish with the head on it, like it's this beautiful seafood plate and pasta. Uh, and then you ordered the house red, you know, whatever it was. And the house red was the best bottle, the best red I've ever had. And was it, I don't know, was it the environment? Probably. But like is just like, you remember, I remember sitting there and just being like, is the life. And like the thing about chinwe tear, at that point when we went, this was before my daughter was born, so more than 10 years ago. And like, it had not been super, uh, touristy [00:58:00] eyes yet. So I just thinking like, this is how some people live day. They wake up and they're on

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: They do this.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: they wake up and they drink this wine. having that thought as an American of being like, life could be so much better.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah. Europe's dangerous when you, when you start traveling and you're like, this is pretty fantastic.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: good. It's pretty good. Those, those socialists, leftists over there in Europe, they, they have a thing or two on us, it

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: There, there's some, there's some beauty there. I, I, I have found as well. Alright, which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. So I

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: and who would you not trust?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I did some homework on this.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Okay, I like it.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: my, my selection is Hildegard,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Okay.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: of, I dunno how to say this, Bingen gin, uh, but she literally grew up around wine. And she called it The Blood of the [00:59:00] Earth.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Ooh,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: so I've got some quotes. She wrote about wine as medicine. talked about there was heart, wine and cough, wine and fortified wine that I give you strength. And she said wine in moderation, heals, and delights people deeply through its great strength and warmth.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: come on now.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: the difference between heavy wines that needed to be cut with better water or lighter, lighter ones. That didn't, didn't, she also warned against wines that would make you urinate, uh, before it was, uh, you were at the place to urinate. Uh, so she, she knew all of the abilities of wine. And so I'm like, okay, Hildegard, you got, you got me with your mysticism and contemplative Christianity, and please choose a bottle of wine for me.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: It sounds like she has tried quite a bit of wine.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I think, I think she knew. She knew she, she had partied at some point and been like, I have to pee and I can't stop myself. I drank too much.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah. Avoid this bottle. This bottle's dangerous.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yes.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Okay. That's a fantastic answer. Who, who do you not trust?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I mean, you can see my, uh, my [01:00:00] anti-reform theology coming out. I do not trust Augustine or Calvin, uh, with choosing my bottles of wine because they're just gonna make you feel bad about it. You know, the sort who's like, you know, love is, is whatever. Augustine had some really shitty ideas about love.

Well, love

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: really did.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: we think love needs to be. So if that means killing people, that's love. And then, you know, Calvin was bringing, uh, capital punishment to Geneva for people who, uh, didn't follow the book of church order. And so I just like, no, I, if you're gonna bring capital punishment to to the church, I don't trust you to pick my wine. Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: If that's solid. But I'm gonna throw a wrench in this Calvin's French and was a big wine guy,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Was

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: and I don't like his theology either, but he, he could have been a solid wine guy.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: was he a big wine guy?

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yeah.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Uh,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: He has a, he has a quote, the, I, I'll butcher it off the top of my head, but basically like compares the way that our hearts are gladdened by a [01:01:00] glass of wine to the way that the spirit of God can gladden us, like, makes us like it's the same thing.

And I've always thought like, that's such a beautiful, like, oh, he, this, this guy had had some good wine.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Even what, what is it? Even a a, a dead clock is white, right? Twice a day.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Twice a day.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Calvin gets one point.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I mean, I'm not defending the guy, let the record stay. I just think he,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: at the pearly gates and Peter's like, well, had one thing, right?

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: your views of wine are not, are not bad. You can come in.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: great. All right. What's something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong? About

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Um, I mean everything at some point, I mean, I was wrong about most things.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Oh wow.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I mean, just like coming out of fundamentalism I am glad that social media did not exist in 2003 or whatever. and may have even had to delete some stuff from [01:02:00] 2005, like when we were all posted on Facebook. Um, so, you know, women in leadership, queer inclusion, eternal conscious torment, all things I now think I was wrong about. And of course, like I wanna hold, it's an nt right quote of like, you know, 60% of what I believe is probably wrong. I just don't know what 60%. Like, gotta hold that today as well. And like, I keep a list of personal values and one of them is keep evolving. the idea of never being settled or like completely and utterly concrete and yep, I've got it figured out is very, very important to me. There's a important person in my life who once told me like, oh, I don't need to read anymore.

I know everything I need to know. And that

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Oh wow.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: to my heart of just like, no, you, you have to keep learning. Um, so many, many things. I think on the, on the less serious side, I used to [01:03:00] be like a, a PC guy. I built my own PCs, PCs and Android. Uh, I'd build my own towers and um, you know, jailbreak my Android phones.

And now I'm just a, very basic MacBook and iPhone guy. I'm not actually, I'm not that basic. I'm in the terminal. I'm a nerdy guy. Uh, so I used to think Apple was like, oh, that's for the people who don't care about technology and don't want to like, tinker with their technology. And now I know that's wrong.

Uh, like apple's based on Unix and you can do all sorts of nerdy, crazy things. So don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I, that's the first. That's the first PC versus Apple answer. I think we've got to that question.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: to bring that energy here.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I like it. What do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in the US today?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Oh man. I know listening to some of the answers, uh, in this podcast before, like Christian nationalism comes up, [01:04:00] um, I wonder about sort of the thing behind the thing. Um, what is it that makes Christian nationalism so appealing to, uh, the church in America? So I wonder if, uh, the combination of plus combined with power seeking, um, that's what produces Christian nationalism. Uh, mark Knoll, uh, his Christian historian has a famous line in his book, um, is the problem with Evangelical thoughts. Uh, and the opening line of the book is, the problem with evangelical thinking is that there is no evangelical thinking.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Oh man,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: And, uh, so I think when you get anti-intellectualism plus power, it just makes you stupid.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: [01:05:00] that's a kind way to say it.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: right. Um, because no doubt Christian nationalism has been very successful in its ability to give kinds of people power, and also like it is a self-destructive force that is eating them alive. It's eating the country alive. It is, you know, everything from the, the damn price of eggs to, uh, the reputation of Christianity.

And therefore the reputation of Jesus, uh, has been absolutely and utterly torpedoed by this movement. And I don't, I, you know, I don't, I'm, I'm not saying that like, you know, give everybody, everybody a book and they'll all be better. but if we were, if Christians were defined by our curiosity a little bit more than we currently are, [01:06:00] I think that would go a long ways into healing, uh, the evils of Christian nationalism and maybe, helping us repent from it.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I think a lot of, a lot of Christians in particular, but you could go beyond to US citizens resonate with whoever told you, I don't need to read anymore. I know it all. That is a collective representation of a lot of thinking.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I used the word thinking loosely there.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Right.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Right? And, and I love that you, you have this idea of like, keep growing and, you know, to me curiosity is one of my favorite words.

Like be curious always. And I, I try to make it a personal discipline whenever I have a curious thought, like, I wonder if da, da, da. Right? And we all have those thoughts, but what most of us do, I'm convinced is we squelch it and we go, I don't know. Right? Like, I would've to go [01:07:00] look it up or I have to go, you know, I have to read a book, I'd have, you know, whatever.

And so we just go, I don't know. For me, I do my best when I realize there's a curious thought to chase it. Like, go chase it. Go look it up. Go. You know, Google it, whatever. And then you often find these, these strings that you start pulling these string and it starts leading you to all sorts of stuff that you go, oh my goodness, I had no idea.

And you get into fascinating things and, uh, you can do this with reading, right? You read a, if you read a phenomenal book, this is why I always encourage people, and you're just like, this book blew my mind. Go to the footnotes or the endnotes in the book, see what this author is referencing. And if you see like, Hey, this author keeps referencing this person or this book, go read that book right?

And just keep going. And you will find like, there's so much out there.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I just think we're not curious. We don't care. We're, we're content in the wrong ways. Like,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I know it all. I'm good.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: The person I mentioned who said like, I don't, I don't, there's nothing else I need to learn, uh, is a Christian nationalist, like a maga [01:08:00] Trumper through and through and like, yeah, that tracks for me of at some point decided I don't have anything else to learn. And so when a demagogue came along and said, I can fix it, and you didn't bother to look up anything that this person claimed, of course you're gonna be led astray.

And I'm very conscious of my own tendencies towards, um. Being a curmudgeon and, uh, you know, sort of getting settled in my ways and like I'm far too young for that. And also it seems to be somewhere in my DNA that that's where like I, I, I, I picked my favorite coffee, you know, 10 years ago. I don't need to change it. Um, and, and having to make the conscious effort of like, no, no, no, no, no. There's better coffee out there. You just haven't tried it yet. Um, or, you know, there's a theology that's maybe put this in, in words that you haven't thought of yet. Um, and know, I could, I've, I've, uh, I've got, I've got four very full bookshelves full of books.

I, I've read a lot [01:09:00] of stuff and then just start, you know, co-pastor in with a, a black queer pastor and be realizing like, oh, I know nothing about theology. I know the, the, the first centimeter of a 10 mile ocean of theology. Um, that has to be a continued. A, a continued path for many of us. So yeah, for Christian nationalism, for the thing that is just like wrecking the lives of millions of people every day because of the people who are in power right now. I could wish anything upon them, I think it would be curiosity.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm. Love it. What's something that's blowing your mind right now? What's a, what's a great book you're reading? What's a thought you got?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I think right now, and you alluded to this a little bit earlier, is, um, so in that blog post about some of my own trauma and hurt and pain and not being [01:10:00] held as a child, um, was then moving into like meditation, contemplation. Uh, so I don't, I don't have a book to recommend, which is very against my brand. Uh, but like to bring some of that history. Trauma and the healing from the trauma into some like somatic practices, which includes meditation and contemplation. It includes, uh, for me, like running, um, and just getting more comfortable with my body. Um, who like had a bunch of birth defects, like that's what's blowing my mind right now, that I, you know, I've taught trauma competent courses to folks and, uh, have taught on the like, Hey, you can rewire your brain.

And it becomes this sort of cliche, uh, but to actually like start doing it, to imagine, okay, I've never been held as a child. Let's do a meditative or a contemplative exercise where I imagine God or the universe or some loving, uh, being, holding me or embracing me. [01:11:00] Turns out that will move you at a very, very deep

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Uh, and I'm not one, uh, again, for reasons related to my past. I do not connect to my emotions very well. I don't cry very easily. Uh, so to find that meditation. Can help me connect it to emotion in a way that has been, know, for decades inaccessible to me, that's blowing my mind. you know, when I do, uh, pastoral care or pastoral counseling with folks and they want to, begin to redevelop their images of God, nobody wants to be told, like, meditate. like it, it's a, it's an answer that it's not very popular. Uh, but I also like the more I practice it, the more I'm like, Hmm, I think this is where it's at. I really do. I think the contemplative, uh, stream of Christianity and the contemplative, streams of any sort of religious or even atheistic, uh, meditation practices, like [01:12:00] really, really can make a difference.

And again, not everybody's the same. I shouldn't be overly prescriptive, but for me, it's blowing my own mind

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Love it. That's good. What's something you're excited about?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. Uh, that's a good question. Mandalorian and Gro, who's coming out this summer? I'm a Star Wars fan.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I, I saw, I saw you, you, you singled out Empire Strikes Back

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Oh, yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: and that, that seemed like an interesting one to single out as. That was your Star Wars movie you referenced on your about page.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah, yeah. Empire Strikes Back is, I mean, that's like third grade Evan Neu Baer's house, putting in the VHS.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Okay, so there's a, there's a time and a place there for you.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: out core memory

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Yes.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah. Doing that. I, this is a whole side thing. Like, and or the Star Wars show. If anybody, anybody, if you are not a Star Wars fan. You should still watch and or, because it's not just a Good Star War [01:13:00] show, it is a good television show it speaks to the fascism of our current political moment. So dang Well, and if you're not interested in the force or lightsabers good news and or is the show for you, and I want star Four Star Wars in any good sci-fi, like it responds to current political moments. Battlestar Galactica did this. Star Wars at its at its, uh, Zenith. Did this, uh, and I wish I beg that Star Wars was not owned by Disney, which was bending its freaking knee to the Trump administration. I don't think Mandalorian and Gro is gonna be doing a lot of political commentary, unfortunately. Uh, but you know, I'm a sucker for, for baby Yoda. Um. And, you know, self, self-promotion here. The other thing I'm excited about, I am nearing the conclusion. Uh, I've been, uh, writing a sort of devotional style book project, um, that I think I've landed on a [01:14:00] title four called Read It Like You're Free, uh, which is about reclaiming scripture from a bunch of the perspectives I've been talking about today. Uh, and it just sort of goes, takes 20 or so verses of scripture and reads them through this sort of liberative lens,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: competent lens. Uh, and so it's for folks who like, you know, if you're not interested in scripture, then this book's not gonna do anything for you. But if you're interested in reading scripture, uh, in a way that is liberative and healing gives you the permission to, uh, read the Bible, this library of books of a bunch of traumatized people, uh, in a way that sets you free. then yeah, this might be the book for you. So I'm nearing the conclusion. Uh, it's just gonna be a self-published project. I'm not, I'm I, I, I'm wary of the publishing world, so, um, I'm excited for that to be done. I have a sabbatical this summer, so my goal is to finish it this summer.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: That sounds very exciting.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I like that. Okay, before we wrap up, is there anything [01:15:00] I did not ask you that you're like, look, we can't close this episode out unless I get this out.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I already talked about Star Wars.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: You got Gro gu, got Empire Strikes back when you're a kid.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I, you know, I just wanna give a shout out to the, uh, anybody who has been diagnosed with OCD.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: have family members who have obsessive compulsive disorder. Um, for a quick definition, it is not how it's, you know, portrayed in a monk or TV shows. obsessive compulsive disorder is when you are faced with intrusive, disturbing thoughts, and your brain cannot get rid of those thoughts. Uh, and ever since a family member has been diagnosed with that, I have discovered that it is far more common, uh, than I have ever realized. And that is very, very difficult to get diagnosed, uh, with OCD because a lot of, uh, primary care physicians and such sort of poo poo the [01:16:00] diagnosis.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Hmm.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: so if you are someone who has intrusive thoughts and you find that you can't get rid of those intrusive thoughts without, um, you know, damaging behaviors, uh, you can check out no CD. Online and they have been a deep help to our family and, uh, can help you towards a path of managing your OCD and being a full person, uh, and no longer being defined by, by those intrusive thoughts.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: That's beautiful. I think a lot of people deal with intrusive thoughts.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah,

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: I, I know a few. Alright. If someone's like, Hey, I like this guy. I resonate with this perspective. What's the easiest way for people to connect with you online and the different things that you're a part of?

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: yeah. Uh, thanks for asking. You can find my sort of more longer form work at my website, parrot Inc. Parrot I ink. Uh, you can follow me on the socials, mostly on threads, uh, sometimes on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube at [01:17:00] Pastor Parrot. That's two Rs and two T's.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Which is, you got a pretty cool freaking name. I mean, let's just,

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: parrot name

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: and then your logo with the parrot in it. I mean, you, it's like your glasses. You've just found yourself. You're just

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: You

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: living in it.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: I was a substitute teacher for a year, and when you have the last name like parrot, you have to own it. Like, you just have to own it from step one. Yes, I do want a cracker. Yes. I will repeat everything you say. is, that is who I am.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: That's amazing. Well, Anthony, this has been a fantastic conversation with you. I so appreciate your heart. I love the way you're doing ministry. I love your openness, your evolving spirit, and you, you just, you look like Jesus. You sound like Jesus and you are bringing Jesus in real time to people. And uh, and I know a number of of listeners today are gonna be blessed by you as well.

So thank you for taking the time, uh, to join us on this episode.

anthony-parrott--he-him-_1_02-24-2026_150243: Thank you so much. That means is, that is the best compliment you could [01:18:00] gimme and I really appreciate the invitation to be here.

jeremy_1_02-24-2026_130243: Well, excellent. Well, everybody, thank you for joining us for another episode. We will see you on the next one of Cabernet and pray. See you friends.

Psychological Safety (with Anthony Parrott) | Ep. 69

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