The Congruent Life (with C.E. Jarnagin) | Ep. 72
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jeremy_1_04-23-2026_090625: [00:00:00] If you're here, you probably have questions. You might have some doubts. You might be in that uncomfortable in-between space where the faith you grew up with doesn't quite fit anymore, but you're not ready to walk away from Jesus either. That's exactly who the Rebuilding Faith online community is for members.
Get a behind the scenes newsletter every Friday. Monthly video calls where we actually talk through this stuff together, guided book studies, and a community of people who are on the same road you are. You're not going to find a lot of easy answers there, but you will find honest conversations and people who aren't going to flinch when you ask the hard questions.
You can join for as little as $10 a month. The link is in the show notes.
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. Today, we have got someone with, almost the same last name as me, and on top of that, we've got the same [00:01:00] publisher. So this is someone I have interacted with offline a number of times. We've never formally had a conversation, and we completed that circle today.
This is Chad Jarnagin, not spelled the way my name is, but very similar. He is a priest, a researcher, and an author. He's the founding vicar of Luminous Parish in Franklin, Tennessee. He served on the President's Advisory Council on face- faith-based and neighborhood partnerships from 2001 to 2009, and his latest book, which we talk about on this episode, is called The Congruent Life: Liberation, Healing, and the Future of Faith.
This is someone who is another example of a person in the church currently living it out well, navigating this tension well, figuring out how to make room for the questions and room for the doubt, and I think this example will be an encouragement for you [00:02:00] today.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be, like, such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is, like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kinda geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had, like, three sips of this wine, and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. [00:03:00] You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.
You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know. I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk [00:04:00] theology, so I... Hoo. I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine. Apparently, the wine is... Here we are. Queer we are. Beer we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guests drink wine. It makes sense now.
Yeah. I get it. A little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice, isn't it? Cabernet and Pray, yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Well, our last names sound the same, but as far as we know, we're not actually related. Welcome to the podcast, Chad.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Hey, thanks man. Looking forward to it.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I mean, it.
feels right. We're both in the same line of work. We have very similar names, although if you're just listening to this, they're spelled differently and they're pronounced slightly differently. But this is the closest I've got to, I think, kin, you know, so I'm gonna take it.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: [00:05:00] That's awesome. Well, I think our publisher actually said we should do a podcast called Jarnigan and Jernigan,
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: That's true. Yeah, we have the same publisher, so they did...
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: we'll
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: And I will tell you, I don't know if you had this, but I had a few things when we were editing and putting things together in the book where our publisher got me confused with you and was like, "Wait, was that, was that Chad or was that you that I was talking to?"
So
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yep, here we are.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: here we, we're going full circle now. We're, we're completing the loop. This just feels right. It's great to have you on the episode today. Before we dive into your book, let's talk about What? we're drinking, i'm stoked for What?
I've got in my bottle. This is the 2010 Chateau Olivier Ground Crew Class A Bordeaux blend,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Goodness.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I have had this one for a while, and I felt like today felt right to bring this out.
So here's a fun story about this. The winery hired a professor to do a soil survey in 2002, and he's got a, a [00:06:00] funky French name, but they refer to this guy as the Pope of Bordeaux. So, like, this is, like, this guy's legendary, and he discovers this, this plot of land on their, the chateau, that was not being used for vines.
It had pine trees and oak trees on it. And he does a soil survey, and he finds out this is the perfect soil to grow this Cabernet on. So they, they pivot, they take the trees out, they start planting these vines. And so the bottle I'm enjoying today is the second year of fruit from that vineyard, which I just think is a cool story.
And, uh, as any good Bordeaux blend, this thing is dark and, uh, you know, can't, can't see through it. But
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Ooh.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Chad, it is, it is so incredible.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That sounds amazing. Looks amazing. What a fun story too. That's special.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Oh, I love that they, like, hired this guy. And so because it's of the age, this is, you know, 16 years old, [00:07:00] the, some of the tannins have softened, which a lot of people have a hard time with these. So I'm getting plum and graphite, black pepper, cedar notes, just absolute delight. So I'm already in a good mood, and we haven't even started talking about some fun things with someone that I know I'm gonna like.
But I'm, that's where I'm at. I'm feeling good today, so Chad, what have you got?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Well, that's a lot to live up to and there's no chance. But this is Three Finger Jack. This is, uh, it's a cab.
That's really all I kinda live in the red world. California 2022, I believe. It's one of my go-to table wines, and it's really fun because you have to let it breathe and, 'cause it's kinda bossy.
And it's got a, it's got a great, it's got a great jammy tobacco, uh, gosh, kinda plummy of thing. There's some coffee kinda notes there. It's so good and, [00:08:00] and it pairs well with, like, pasta and, like, red sauce, stuff like that, you know. My wife's Italian, so we kinda have, uh, a quota of red wine, I would say.
And, but this one's one of our go-tos. It's nice. I like it.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yeah, I feel like if you, if you married an Italian, you gotta, you gotta be able to hang with the wine game.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Absolutely. And I've-- I'm a whiskey and
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Ooh,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: guy.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: okay.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: together, but yes, it's awesome.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Very nice. We have a whiskey and wine trip coming up in September. Just shout out to all of our listeners if that's interesting to you. You can find out more on the website. But I mean, Chad brought it up, so I felt like I had to,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Good
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: to connect. We actually... If you wanna go in Oregon, see people who make the whiskey, who make the wine, and talk to them while you enjoy the fruit of their labors, we have a trip for that.
It's a guys trip. And,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: blast.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: yeah, it's-- we did it last year. It was super cool. And, uh, we're doing another one back by [00:09:00] popular demand. I'm curious, do you use wine in communion?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yes.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: So is there a, a certain type of wine you use? How does that go?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Port,
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Oh.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: and we spare no expense with Taylor Port, which is a joke. Um, it's just they come in these handles, they're easy to get. We always have two bottles at the same time. never have to worry about running out of wine just because of the quantity that they give us. But it's great.
It's-- And you do that with, when you it with water, which is a part of our communion kind of, uh, ritual, it, it takes the edge off a little bit. And there's something about when you have port with, like, any form of bread, it just kind of gets you a little bit. And so I like when new people come up to receive Eucharist, I can kinda tell if they have been in this type of environment before if this is something they're used to, or if [00:10:00] they're a former, like, evangelical kinda coming and trying the liturgical smells and bells.
And you can tell by their face when they have the w- when they've tasted the wine, especially if they do the common cup dr- straight, and you can just kinda see them just kinda do a g-, you know? And it's, it's so great. Yeah, it, it reminds me, I saw a guy a couple weeks ago Who had-- He told on himself with all, and he kind of had, um, a Seinfeld Kramer kind of a vibe, and he kind of had that of, uh,
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I can totally picture what you're saying.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Right? And so imagine giving that and seeing that happen and being a Seinfeld guy, and then being like trying to hold it together at the same time. That was pretty funny.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Fun fact, I don't think-- I don't know if I've ever shared this story on the pod. My first exposure to wine in my life was at the Eucharist at a Catholic church. I didn't know it was wine. That's how Protestant I was. And so you know, the priest... I, I [00:11:00] went there with a friend for a weekend, and the, the priest holds the glass, and I take a big swig of It having no clue what I'm doing. Yeah.
I'm a little, you know, little kid in elementary school, and, you know, definitely had that like, "Oh, man,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That's
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: what,
is that?"
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: burns.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: and then my friend's
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: took a sip of it?" And I was like: "I, I don't... I've never done it like this before," you
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That's so good.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: oh,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: the
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: that's great.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: My-- That was a story of mine, too. Same kind of deal, and I was like, "Whoa, what was that?"
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: So
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: me and got into me.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: do you, do you finish the wine personally at the end of the, the Eucharist or no?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I typically don't. We have-- If there's a bunch of us serving that day, whether it's a deacon or another priest, I kinda let them do it, and if there's any left over, I might. But one of the fun things we love to do is whoever is helping to clean up everything, whether it's one of the clergy or it-- sometimes it's my children.
I have two older teenagers that kind of help do all the... Sometimes they-- we are to serve Eucharist to creation [00:12:00] if there's leftover, right? If there is a lot left over, we save some of it that's consecrated so that we can serve it throughout the week different ways. Or we just take it outside, and we give it back to nature, you know?
And so same thing with the wine and the juice and, uh, yeah, it's just a beautiful kind of ritual that we do.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Hmm. 'Cause isn't it in some traditions that it, it has to be consumed, right? Like you can't do that or?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: can store some of it if you're going to use it within a certain amount of time. but, but typically if there's just a, a bit left, finish it off. I will say this is funny. At my, my diaconate ordination, I believe, I was ordained a deacon, the priests and the bishops had me and the two other, uh, ordinands that were being ordained at the same time, they made us consume all of it together, and they waited the entire-- Like there [00:13:00] was a block of time.
There was so much bread left over and so much wine, and we just kinda looked at each other and it's like, "I think they're punking us." we just kinda looked over at them and you-- And they're like-- Tell me that Anglicans don't have a sense of humor. Dude, they, they were were having a blast watching us just kind of finish it all off.
So we all kind of just like, "This seems cruel." And, uh, it was so funny. And I don't tend to do that kind of stuff, but, uh, that's a funny little side story.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: So you guys did finish it all?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: We did. We were so proud of ourselves, but I'm like, "My gosh, I wanna save some, some room for like dinner later, but I'm so full from Jesus,"
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I'm so...
full from Jesus.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Oh, man.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Just imagining having to like, "I gotta eat another loaf and then
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: like, are
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: drink another cup." I mean, like,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: We just
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: because you're hungry or you want to, but...
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: multiplying again? [00:14:00] happening?"
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yeah, that, that story takes on a whole new connotation for you. You have, you have PTSD every time you read it. Like, "Oh,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah. I
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: much bread. "
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: This isn't, this isn't as fun as everybody thinks it is."
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Oh, stop feeding so many people, Jesus. We're done. We're done. That's it." Oh, Chad, that's amazing. That's a, that's a great story. Okay, let's try to transition out of that, 'cause I l- feel like we could just hear some of your stories today.
I love to give people who are listening a chance to get your story, kind of a perspective before we get into some of the specifics in your book, and the way I like to do it is focus on the last 10 years.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Hmm.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: And in particular, one of the things that we talk a lot about on this podcast is that we're all in process.
We are growing, we are changing, we are allowing the Spirit to lead us wherever that may go, and I think it's helpful for people to see what that actually looks like in real people's lives. So for you, how would you say your faith has changed In the last 10 years...
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: In the last 10 years... Well, I've been a [00:15:00] priest for a little over 10 years, and so I've been doing this type of work that long. And the previous 10 years probably formed and led up to that 10 years. But this has been a strange time, and I'm sure you have people on all the time that talk about the same thing, especially if they have any kind of ministry connection, that you have to navigate the last 10 years with all of these ridiculous hurdles, from culture and politics and media and propaganda and all these, you know, all of this craziness.
And so for me, it's driven me into a deeper type fiveness, to, to just drink in, read, expand knowledge, and then figure out how to teach that
knowledge back to people. So understanding [00:16:00] who have in front of me or around me contextually is really important. I understand that a lot of our people are in process of deconstructing Or having had, or we ha- like we have a dozen former pastors church just
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Really?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: and a ton of therapists and musicians and authors and that kinda weird stuff.
I mean, we're a tiny church, 160 maybe. so it's extraordinary to see that. So to
know who we are, to know who we have, to know who the eyes that I'm looking into has helped me to not get overwhelmed in constant outrage of every ridiculous microphone that is turned on and facing in our direction. It's just helped me to kinda see people and [00:17:00] lean into life together.
And context is king, you know? And that's, uh, that's been the last 10 years of just living and loving on the people that are around me, giving myself permission to not have all the answers, to listen and learn, and, and, and kind of for the first time in my life, I think, if I'm honest, enjoy some obscurity just to be a dad and, or, uh, a friend or a husband or a lover of baseball
and music and art.
And so that's the last 10 years it feels like I've really been living the life internally and externally as a resistance to the chaos here in the United States, if that makes any [00:18:00] sense.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yeah.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: 10 years of it, man. Like we're all kinda can trace what it felt like before the before times.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: It, yeah, that question right now, the way it hits, you know, three years from now, hopefully that question feels different, you know, when, when people are, are thinking about that. But, you know, to have such, I mean, literally a, a decade of this has defined it, and for those of us who have tried to navigate any sense of ministry within these cultural waters, it is, it is very challenging.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Mm-hmm. And I'm
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: And I...
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: had people say, "This is a challenge, yes, and I'm also going to push back
now." You know? That's, I think that's part of the job. And re- regardless if, if there was another tyrant, um, DC kind of leading the charge, uh, we would kind of be pushing back against the things that [00:19:00] like trespassing, you
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yeah.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Or, or watching our marginalized brothers and sisters Uh, t- just fight for their life, you know? And th- that's, that's something for us to now we're not sitting back on the sidelines. The, the fruit of the chaos has led us to participate and to protest and to stand up and find a voice. I think that that's kind of the, the undercurrent of the congruent life, just trying to figure out how to bring this forward and normalize the resistance, if that makes sense.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Hmm. And your book does such a good job connecting the out- outward part of us, the inward part of us, how do we think these things through? And so I wanna read through a number of different quotes that, that stood out to me, and I, I love doing this with authors, uh, especially when I know as I'm reading your book, I'm gonna get a chance to sit down with you and we can, you know, talk m- more in depth about these ideas.
But you had a number of things, and, uh, this was, this was a book that was, [00:20:00] like, surprisingly easy to read because it, it just felt like it's... It, it was like doing soul work, but not like, like laboriously. It wasn't like, "Okay, yeah, I should." It's just like, "Oh, yes." Like, I kept like agreeing with you of like, "Yes, yes," like, "Let's do that."
You, you have this line: "What if the spiritual exhaustion we feel isn't because we've failed our faith, but because our faith has failed to make space for our full humanity?" I love that image of... And this is what I talk about in my book a lot, of these ideas that we thought we, we lost, we broke, you know, everything didn't work out, and then you go, "Oh, actually, something beautiful's happening."
What do you mean there by our full humanity? How do you see that?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That is obviously-- For me, it's obvious that we have to be holistic, know? So our full humanity is not just what we say and not what we wear and what we do, it's what we leave unsaid. [00:21:00] what we leave, uh, hidden. And the fullness of who our humanity is, our values, our beliefs, our convictions, our joys, our pain, our lament, and we have to give it space to be honest rather than hide it and cloak it in some kind of religious bullshit, you know?
There's this opportunity of fullness if we just drink it in allow ourselves to be honest with ourselves, first of all, and with our creator, and then with one another. I think that that's hopefully what I was getting at.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: What do you think it looks like when someone is doing that well, when they're embracing their full humanity? What do you see in that person?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I have seen that, and maybe in times I wouldn't have known that that was what I was [00:22:00] seeing. It's someone who is Offering, and this is therapy talk, but it's, it-- I, I love that we've normalized some of this. Offering people generous assumptions a beautiful art, and when I see people do that, I know that they're doing the, the hard work.
They're doing the inner work. They're doing the, the heavy lifting that nobody else can see. And I think the performative aspect of, of especially American Christianity can be so much easier the, it's the veneer that we can put on and then take off when nobody else is looking. But the realness is when you're kind of pressed in from every side and life is coming at you heavy and hard, then seeing what you're made of by how kind you are or by how hospitable you are.
sometimes that, you know, that [00:23:00] non-anxious presence is revealed in the moment of crisis or heaviness, and everything around can just be chaos. then for a moment, you see someone just slow down and aren't l- they aren't looking over your shoulder. They're looking directly at you. You have their attention.
You are their attention. those are beautiful ways of seeing how that's playing out in real time. I see that in everyday people, but I also see that with people within my parish and other and writers and, and everybody that I encounter. I also see that not playing out, and it's pretty obvious.
Um, and that's not, it's beyond, it has to be beyond personality. You know, some people, especially w- as prevalent as ADHD is i-in adults, um, we, we have to give each other maybe that generous assumption back when we [00:24:00] aren't seeing it play out, and then it maybe slows us down a little bit to offer a little bit more grace.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I-
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: it is interesting, you know, it's the cl- it's cliche, but, you know, is this, is this gonna make you bitter or is this gonna make you better? And I remember that kind of an idea even going through some of my journey of like, okay, you, you, you get to, you get to choose here. Like, something happened, you're going through something hard, but what, what is the, what is the outpouring?
Like, what's, what is it producing in me? And I just remember that, that was r- like really an invitation for me to lean into like, "Okay, God, whatever you want to do in me here, I wanna sit in it. I wanna, I wanna be there for it. I wanna, you know, be ready for it," because I don't want it to be said of me that, "Hey, X, Y, and Z happened, and then look how bitter he is now."
And we, we've all seen that person that you're like, "Well, it's understandable, but I'm not drawn to that person now." And you know, and it's like, it's, it's kind of like you s- you meet that person with a sadness versus the person who may have gone through something horrific, [00:25:00]
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: and then everything you're describing, you're like, "I am so drawn to you."
And the way that you are embodying, you know, to use your phrase, your full humanity, but also just the way that you're embodying the spirit, I think is beautiful. It's an invitation for all of us. I know a lot of people listening to this probably have a deconstruction, either, uh, they lean that way or they have, you know, something in their, their story that they're open to that.
And it's al- this is always the invitation for us is when you go through that, are you allowing God to produce, you know, the fruit of the spirit in the midst of that? Or does it create these really nasty negative versions of us 'cause we didn't ever lean into that moment?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah, man, that's so good and so wise, and something that we have to ourselves down to experience, you know, which is easier said than done these days.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: But I think too, when you see someone do it well, it's like, I, I can think of people in my life that I'm like, "I wanna be like this person,"
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yep.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: know? And it's like, however you have figured this out, like I, I want, I wanna like [00:26:00] absorb some of that. And so I think we have to have those good examples ready.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah, for sure.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Okay. You, you had an idea in your book that- I, I talk a lot about this 'cause I think this is something that so many people are feeling. I do not think we are talking about it enough, so I was so grateful that you dove into this. You say this line, "It's disorienting when the very people who taught you to follow Jesus no longer recognize that same Jesus in your faith."
And I mean, like I, I... That was like a immediate highlight, 'cause I'm like, this is it, and you say it so succinctly, so powerfully. There are so many people that I know you're talking to, I'm talking to them every single week, and there's a confusion. The people who introduced me to this Jesus now are, are, you know, they cannot recognize anything that this Jesus has led me to do,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: [00:27:00] Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: and then there's this confusion of, did I get something wrong?
Did they get something wrong? Is Jesus both of these things? You know, it's like, it's, it's all these like, what is it? Talk to us about this, 'cause this is... I mean, this is such a big deal for people right now.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I don't think that we can have a conversation about this without going ahead and calling out what has become, w- has seemingly become of some of these people that we have in mind. And has to be-- I, I love Brian Zahnd said something about, you know, there's never been a time where God wasn't like Jesus
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: wasn't like God.
There's never been a time. That Jesus has always been like God, and God has always been like Jesus. When I, when I see that, I have to g- have to think, so if someone stands at a podium with a gold cross on [00:28:00] their- chest and spouts off incredibly non-Christlike rhetoric against a people group or in support of some ridiculously anti-Christ legislation.
You-- How recent is this? We, we see this on a daily basis intentionally to try to normalize Christian nationalism, and I will get in trouble, and I have gotten in trouble in saying this. I said this in the book: If we're honest about Christian nationalism, we're talking about white nationalism
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: cloaked in Christianity that has nothing to do with Jesus.
It is a different thing altogether. And when you have a room full of people that maybe we once knew and we looked to as, "Wow, I read their books, I heard their, their talk [00:29:00] at a leadership summit," or I saw, like, whatever. Uh, we, uh, we're seeing two different types of Jesus, but one is of empire and one is this meek Messiah, right?
I mean, we've come through-- We're in Holy Week now as we're doing this, and we come through Palm Sunday with, uh, it seems like this. I don't know if you've thought about this. We haven't talked previously about this, but Palm Sunday gave us two pictures of a king, right? With, uh, a one side of Jerusalem had this armory parade, military parade of might and intimi-intimidation, and Christ is on the other side of town coming in, having palm branches thrown and waved, singing hosannas, which is [00:30:00] "Save us."
He thought that they were going-- he was gonna offer a revolution and take care of them and, and stand up for them and be a king that would actually smite and combat the other, the em- the empire. And Jesus is saying, "That's not it. That's not my kingdom." And we see that kind of unravel, and so now this humility of a donking- donkey-riding and this heavy armored horse kind of vibe, that's what this other...
folks that we have in our hearts, in our heads, that's-- they're, they're bowing to this Caesar and, and not this humble way of Jesus that offers a different way forward. the only thing that I can kind of call out, and, and that's definitely in the undercurrent of everything that I was writing about, and I was trying to make it [00:31:00] tempered and accessible, um, for us all to kind of draw our own conclusions and to, to be mindful of that reality.
I've actually had a couple of people talk about that specifically that said that it, you know, it moved them to tears because of um, or relationships that have fractured over the last decade. uh, it's extraordinary that we're having to sit here and, and heal, from that kind of pain, you know?
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Well, and to use your, you know?
Palm Sunday illustration, you're, you know, you're, you're watching Jesus walk in on the donkey and you're looking around for all your loved ones who introduced you to Jesus, and instead you realize they went to the other end of town.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Mm-hmm. That's it.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: uh, you know, pastorally, I-- like my heart breaks for how many people are, are looking [00:32:00] around in confusion going He, here he is.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: introduced me to him, and here he comes. Like, he's, he's c- he's right here, you know? It's like he's doing what you said he was gonna do.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: And then you look around to, like, let's celebrate this, and they're not there. And
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: then you have that element of, like, the disappointment of that, the, the shock of that.
Then you have, you know, the, the groups later for dinner meet up, and they tell you, "Why, w- why were you not with us?"
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Hmm.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: And you're like, "'Cause I, I was at the, the Jesus end of the
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: you know, the, the donkey side, right? And it's like, "No, no, no. You, you missed it. Like, he rode in. He... You know, the king's here."
And it's like, "No." And you know, I... It's like almost every week I feel like I hear a new story of someone with a family member, a parent, and they're like... I- it's just this deep grief that people are carrying. [00:33:00] Uh, pastorally, how, how have you found... How do you help people? How have you found ways to encourage people who are just confused at which end of town their loved ones are?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah, these are really hard times to navigate those realities. I've experienced that personally well, so I have a deeper empathy, and I don't think that that's by accident. I, I think that we can look at each other and say, "I see you, and I do get it." And it is extraordinary. I give people the space to grieve that, and I think we have to, we have to.
We have-- We can't just move on and, just think these people that I grew up with my entire life are essentially... I mean, I've heard people- Did-- like use the [00:34:00] word disowned. They have been disowned. And, and of course, that's been a normalcy from coming out on their sexuality or something like that in a, in a more strictly conservative or fundamentalist church.
also people who say, "Well, if you didn't vote for Trump, we have nothing in common." And I would think reasonable people would say, "Well, that's absurd. That's, that's ridiculous." And yet I have heard those stories more than a half a dozen times of real people. So you have to just give people the space to grieve that and also say, "Hey, by the way, you're not alone.
There is an entire group of people who will resonate and welcome you in as family." so at Thanksgiving and at Christmas and at Easter, [00:35:00] we're having and people just make new families. They're, they're holding each other up. They're creating new memories. And hope that at some point when sobriety comes back around from whatever this bewitching we would be able to look back on that and even grieve that, know, even grieve the Kool-Aid drinking, the, the propaganda that we have poisoned ourselves with, you know, or, uh, and some of our loved ones have done.
So yeah, we just have to give each other space and, uh, offer that "You're not alone." to normalize that is a really helpful thing. I've seen that. I've seen tears quickly just come up in people's eyes when you say things like that because you're giving them permission to be like, "I know I'm not crazy.
know I'm not crazy." And then when they hear certain things within a message or, [00:36:00] or homily or in the prayers of the people even that we offer, it, it-- you just kinda see it even there break down walls and they're kinda like their shoulders just kind of like relax little by little in the 15 minutes of the homily.
it's because we're all looking for that permission to be like, trying to live into my values and into this whole Jesus thing." so that's the incongruence that we have to live with is, is baked with grief these hard stories. And so we just have to give each other space for it to de-detangle.
But being with each other, finding your people is a really beautiful thing in the middle of the chaos.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yeah, sh-sharing the grief with others is, is profound, and that is what happens in a lot of these spaces and watching the lights come back on in someone's eyes
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Oh.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: when they [00:37:00] find, Oh.
you, you can relate with this. You have this pain too. You know this grief." And, you know, it's just, it's, it's so interesting also for those of us in, in the roles of, you know, trying to be the communicators of a better way forward.
Like I, I was in a meeting not too long ago with, um, about seven couples, uh, of a church that I regularly teach at, and they didn't like what, what we were addressing. And they were, uh, much more in the Christian nationalism. You know, they, they said we-- they wanted us to be more like Charlie Kirk and Franklin Graham, and those were the examples they held up.
So we sit down with them and, you know, we're, we're listening to them. We're trying to talk through why are we not being that kind of a church? Why are we being this kind of a church? And as I'm listening, you know, to different things, one of them who is, I mean, just dogmatic in this is the only way it should be done and you guys are not doing it the right way, and then talks about her f- she was, you know, I think in her late [00:38:00] 70s, talks about her family has cut her off.
And she was just saying, "I cannot believe anybody would ever..." And, you know, it wasn't the right setting in that moment, but had I been one-on-one with her, I would have said, "What do you think about your posture right now is causing your family members to tell you that they can't be in relationship with you?
Like, what, what do you think maybe you're projecting onto them that they're having to create a boundary with you, and you don't understand the boundary and you're hurt by the boundary, but what, you know, what led to the boundary?" And it's like, I don't know if you feel... I feel like we have-- we're, like, trying to dissect an onion, and it's like, which layer do we even get to right...
You know, it's like, then there's that layer and that layer and that layer and this whole thing. And, you know, it's like I also have a heart for these people who are confused, you know, and th-th- they have drank the Kool-Aid, and they're, you know, "I don't understand why my kids won't talk to me." And it's like, I, I can try to help you understand it, [00:39:00] but if you're not in a place where you're really wanting to, it's not gonna make any sense to you.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Oof. Mm. Mm. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Th-these are so strange times to, to walk through, and I've asked my mother, who's a really wonderful person and, and, um, much older, and her, "H- what have you ever experienced that's anything like this?" And, uh, she goes, "I haven't." She's almo- she's 70-something years old, 79.
She's not experienced this either. And I've looked back and she's experienced a lot of life and a lot of really strange times as a world and as a country. so I think we have to maybe just realize that this is so extraordinary right now uh, not to be an alarmist, I think all you have to do is just Kind of just wake up in the morning to, to just be aware that smoke, there's fire, and you can ignore it [00:40:00] and kind of pretend that or just think that it's just gonna go away, but that's not really happening.
We have to do some work. It takes some effort for us to find our people and also care for those that we love and, you know, maybe even find that place. I wish somebody had a template. Maybe somebody does. Uh, maybe a good therapist who's out here on the interwebs would say, "Here's the three things that you don't do when you're with your these days who are on the opposite side of reality."
But it's more about, we just talk about baseball? Can we talk about the food that we've worked on? Can we talk about this recipe or your garden?" things like that. And, and that's... I- But I still think that that's only going to be short-lived it's surface. know? You're, you're just staying out of these things rather than what is it fundamentally that we [00:41:00] get so fractured over?
Because I've never once ever bought a flag for a president. never bought swag from anyone who I was excited about and voted for. it, it's a cult-ish, and actual cult too, we have seen kind of fracture our families and our communities and, and at our churches, you know? I think we've, we've all kind of experienced, that in a different way.
We've probably always been more of a, a left-leaning place, but we also welcomed right-leaning. I don't think that, you know, uh, the, the far right would never be a part of our parish, and I think the far, far left would have more difficult time as well because they are... We're not radical enough in their eyes, and we're most [00:42:00] certainly way too hospitable and open and affirming for, um, people on the far right.
But it's, it's kinda like it's not an experiment. I think we're just k- kind of seeing it play out in real time, but also having these conversations on the daily, it feels like. And, uh, it's sometimes I just leave those conversations wanting to be more hopeful, and I try to offer these little bite-size moments of my priestly duties would say, like: Look, you, you just, just care for yourself know when to say no and give yourself that permission.
But also to stay soft Try to stay soft. And sometimes the, the rigidity is a defense that helps us to kind of like, "No, I gotta just put up this wall." And I think we do have to do that on occasion. Uh, I long for the [00:43:00] days where we be- everybody begins to and melt again.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Hmm. I think the hard part about what you're saying, and it's, it's exactly what I've seen as well. You, you start to realize we can't talk about this, we can't talk about this, we can't talk about this, so let's talk about baseball. Let's talk about the weather. Let's talk about... And then you realize these people who you have deep, deep ties with, you only have service-level conversations with.
And there's something that, like, is broken about that, right? Of we have so much relational connection, and yet
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Right.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I can't talk to you about my views of [00:44:00] all the things that matter to me now?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Hmm.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: know, and that's what like, uh, that's like what, uh, the solution becomes, and it's so hard for that to be the solution of You know, and so I think people are like going, are there spaces where you can talk about it, where you can be real, where you can say, "Here's where I'm at.
Where are you at? How do we..." And I love that you are a church that's trying to create that space, that's trying to say, "Look, if you're on the, the extremes, you may not love it, but if you're not on the extremes, you might be able to find some nuanced conversation here."
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That might be why we're only 160 people.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: You know what? And maybe it's the most faithful 160 you could ever have.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah. Totally, man. And it's, it's really wild because I think that that's w- our ambition is not to be a mega liturgical space. I don't even think that that is allowed. but yeah, there's something really beautiful about that and seeing it, and then [00:45:00] walking with people together to where you start going, "Oh, that's a different take," because it was civil with like, offered with respect.
And I think most of us, what we, we have to just get to the r- deduction is when we are disrespectful towards someone or dehumanizing of a human or being de- dehumanized and disrespected, that's when Every single human shuts down we get into combat mode. PBS has a, a beautiful, uh, thing out that, that I just started watching, and it's going to be something that I'm gonna have to take and listen to and watch, and it is something that I think would be really helpful for the church today.
Um, I can't even remember the title of the segment, but it has to do with the propaganda and the intentionality of our outrage. Um, it is being weaponized on purpose. And I think if we just kinda see through some of that, it [00:46:00] gives us some sanity and sobriety in the middle of the chaos that it- we are experiencing.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yeah,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: s- to help us to go, "Man, I don't have all the answers, but I can see what's happening. not bewitched by whatever this spell is." And, uh, man, we just gotta keep trying to hold onto our humanity in the middle of all of it.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: that's so good. Okay, you write this: "When the cultural air is thick with suspicion and distortion, the pursuit of truth becomes a sacred act."
Tell us about that.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I think you can put that in almost any context if you're talking about, the scriptures and kinda how we translate a story or a parable, or even how we correlate what Paul is doing in light [00:47:00] of what he heard about Jesus. But we can also see that in, in the same context that we were just talking about in our political and cultural We, we have to find ways of, listening and learning because we, uh, we can take in all the information there is, but if that doesn't lead us to transformation, we're missing an opportunity, and that is with everything. Um, here's a good story. Maybe it c- I hope that it connects with this. But I've... I'm a baseball guy.
I grew up my baseball family. Uh, I had my dad, my uncle, my nephew, um, and another cousin who played in the majors. And I love the sport, [00:48:00] and I coached it for about 15 seasons. I thought I knew all the things that I could offer to young boys growing up learning the sport. And then I step back and I say, "I want my youngest son to have a different experience."
And he has now had a couple of seasons with new coaches that weren't me. And I will always be Coach Dad. I will always kind of be that. But watching him learn from new people, saying the same things new ways, saying-- doing the same drills a different way, using different angles and different aspects of what they're trying to get them to move their bodies in a certain way, it's a game changer literally watching my son live and learn with new people, new voices, new mechanisms.
[00:49:00] so seeing that and being willing to step back and let that play out. I wonder if there's other ways that we can do that. I think love to see more women in ministry. I would love to see more women... And I think we are seeing that, and we're seeing that in the publishing world too, more voices moving towards the front and some of the other voices and the older voices kind of moving to the side or to the back.
And sometimes the industries do that to you and it doesn't feel great. But when we have the sensibility and the awareness we're giving the pulpit and the microphone to the next young woman or the next young man, it, it changes things and it starts to cultivate this openness, um, that I think is connected to, um, your question, is just that how do we remain find new [00:50:00] ways of getting to the truth and getting to what the reality versus standing around in the same system that just only protects the powerful and marginalizes, um, the s- the softer.
uh, gosh, I-- we have to move forward in all of that. I think that that's what I'm trying to get at.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I already knew you were a godly man, but when you have used baseball as strong of an illustration as you just have, now I know it for sure. I'm a huge baseball nut. Uh, like very huge. What, what is your, what's your team?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Well, I also know something about suffering as soon as I say my team, um...
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Cubs.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Reds fan,
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: so yes, uh, it's... But I love the sport so much to where I have a lot of teams that I pull for [00:51:00] and, if you're a real baseball fan, you also have teams that you loathe and that I wanna see them go 0 for 162.
uh, that's not happening already, but yeah, I love it. It's such a fun sport.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Ugh, but yes. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, you have, uh, this idea that I thought was so cool, uh, and I think this is a thread we, we've already been talking about in this conversation. You write, "Because God is not behind us urging shame, but ahead of us whispering courage. To move always forward is not to rush or strive, it is to keep participating in our becoming."
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: the way you worded that because I think we often, you know, it's very American to go, "Okay, here's the five things you gotta do, and do these right, and, you know, be more disciplined." And I love the idea of participating in our becoming. Like, Jesus is already [00:52:00] doing this. He's inviting us forward.
We just participate in it, and then we become that person. What, what does that look like to you? How have you seen that?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Well, it's practice. know, it's, it's-- The-- We're wired the way we are for a reason. It's in us. We have been, we have been created certain ways to have love of baseball, a love of wine, uh, a love of, uh, w- whatever your Netflix show is, you know? we have to just l- learn to be still enough to do the inner work.
Just because you were, maybe a mathlete at young age, and then you grow up to n- and maybe math is easy but you don't have a love of it, that's okay. Like, learn to accept what gives you life and what [00:53:00] gives, what drains you. uh, I'm a big fan of the personality assessments, especially the Enneagram, because it, it helps give us a more robust and a more fuller picture of what makes us tick.
Instead of trying to do something that we have no desire to do, or it just drains us at the thought of having to make that spreadsheet, it... There's something about becoming that gives us life, and think we just have to to practice things to figure out what that is. Sometimes it's process of elimination, and but giving ourselves that to "Eh, that's not really...
really appreciate..." Uh, uh, one of the things for me is, like, I love reading. I truly [00:54:00] do. But when someone makes a, such an amazing cinematic saga to film, like "The Lord of the Rings" or even "Harry Potter"- I love those, and I've read most of the books. I have to see the life of these characters come into the visual and my imagination, which I think is a holy thing.
Our sacred imagination is such a beautiful thing. But sometimes we have to give our permission to say, "Hey, just because I love to read doesn't mean that I don't like that film better than I like that book." And as silly as that sounds, there's something about just giving ourselves permission just to, to learn, um, something new that gives us, um, just a, a desire to live it even more boldly, so.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Okay, I, I [00:55:00] gotta press this one. What book or what movie would you say is better than the book version?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Ooh.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: us a tangible.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Oof. tough.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: ' Cause I'm gonna, I'm gonna say I can't even think of one. I mean, maybe I have one. I couldn't think of one off the top of my head because I am the snob the other way That's like, Oh, my gosh, this movie had to cut out so many things." Like I recently read The Hunger Games,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: the, the five books with my daughter.
She was really into this and she's like, "Dad, let's read these together." So we did, and they were good. I, I enjoyed them Um, I, I think they're written for a teen audience, but I was like, yeah.
there's, there's, there's a lot there." Like, it was really good. Then we watched the first movie, and I was such a snob about it, 'cause I'm like, "Ugh."
Like, while we're watching, I'm like, "They, they skip this whole backstory." You know, like,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That's
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: what do you have to do in all this? And so, again, I'm the guy, I think I'm probably too far on the other end. So redeem me. What's a, what's a movie that smokes the book?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Man, [00:56:00] I-- Okay, so from what I have experienced, the only one that I can think of, and my wife would vehemently just disagree with me on this, is Dune. And, um, the, the idea that the- these characters are extraordinary. I love the music. I love the immersive reality of it. Like, you can almost taste and smell the spice and the sand and the heat, and I just think that they killed it.
And then there's things that they left out that I wish they wouldn't have, and characters that I don't like the evolution of. But man, I- enjoyed those films probably more than the books.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Wow.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: So that's the only thing that comes to my mind.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: You know, I appreciate that. I adamantly agree with your wife on this one. Uh, I hated the Dune movies, and to the point where I don't even think I'll see the next one, 'cause I'm like, "I'm over it." I don't... Like, you just lost me.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That's [00:57:00] fair. '
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Cause I feel like they-- And again, I think part of it is the medium. You have to move so fast just for the sake of time.
So it's like, you know, I love the backstory. I love the, all the nuance of it. And, um, you know, I think the equivalent would be if you? could take each book and make it a series, right? Where, like, each book had that space, maybe they could smoke it. But, ugh,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That's fair. Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I just...
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: to actually be on an island on this one.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: All right, listeners, you have to decide for yourself where you land on this. All right, a little bit. Let's, let's pivot a little bit. Let's talk about wine for a moment, and I wanna ask you some questions I like to ask each of our guests. If I said, "What was the best glass of wine you have ever had in your life?"
Is there a moment, a memory that comes to your mind? Is it a story? I'd love to hear a story, and I'd love to hear, was it because of what was in the bottle? Was it because of where you were? Was it 'cause of who you were with? [00:58:00] What makes that story pop into your mind when I say, "Best glass of wine you've ever had in your life"?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I have a couple of stories, so, it'll-- I'll make this as succinct as possible. When I first moved to Nashville, I didn't really know anyone. I've been here for 27 years, I think, 28 years. And when I first moved here, I just found friends who were connected in the music world, because that's what I moved to town for.
I know it's shocking. And I went over to one of my friend's apartments to celebrate her birthday. Her dad came in bought all of this extraordinary wine that I had no idea what it was. It-- I was so early on in my 20s that I didn't know what was what. And he gave me this glass, and I felt like I was drinking wood chips.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Where
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: dry. All
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: do [00:59:00] I
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: mean, sit-- I literally was sitting here just going: Oh my God, what can I do with this? And
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: dump this?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: the thing is, he was a, a wonderful host, and he would kept
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Oh,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: he knew what he was doing. Like, he gave you, like, a proper pour so that you can smell and enjoy it, because I had no idea what we were having. Until the next year, I said-- to my friend: Hey, you remember that, your birthday last year? And she said: Oh my God, yes. How can I ever forget? My dad brought in a case of his favorite wine, which is extraordinary.
And I was like: Yeah, I would remember that. Do you know... And I asked her: What wine was that? Because at that point, I was still a novice, just trying to figure it out. She says: [01:00:00] That was Opus One.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: geez.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: And I was like: Are you kidding? And this is a year removed, and I knew enough then to know Oh, what a schmuck I was.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Oh, I missed something there.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: And so at that time, it was not my favorite, but I have had it since, and I could not believe my palate. It is still not my favorite wine. I would be str- it's so strange. I, love Silver Oak, and it's the Cab.
And I had an experience where I had a, a bottle of it with a couple of friends in San Francisco while I was touring. We had, like, a day off, and we had gone to a concert, like, that night and, uh... Oh, no, this was Sacramento, because the concert was at this really cool venue in Sacramento. I just had this beautiful glass.
And, and at that time, I had done [01:01:00] enough work to know really like red wine, but my palate wasn't ready for Opus One back in, uh, that time. So I thought that that was fun.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: That's amazing. It is, it is totally, you know, very much an acquired taste. Uh, at like Christmas time, we'll give our kids as they get... Once they become 13, you get a little glass of wine at Christmas. You know, that's kind of the way we like introduce them. And, you know, the first year they're always like, "This is the thing you talk about all the time, Dad?"
You know, like they're just kinda confused, you know? And I'm like, "Well, just, we'll, we'll revisit it year after year just a little bit. Like, you don't have to drink it, you know, if you don't want it." And, uh, my 17-year-old's our oldest, and he's at the point now where he's like, "Okay, I'm s- Yeah. I'm star- I'm starting to dial this in."
And I'm like, "Dude, I was in my late 20s before I ever enjoyed a glass of wine, so you'll be way ahead of me." Um, but I always joke,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I love that.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I do wanna, I do wanna set it up where my daughter, who's 13, uh, I [01:02:00] wanna set it up where, you know, some boy is gonna take her out to like a nice dinner, you know, in her early 20s and like try to wow her with some bottle of wine.
She's gonna be like, "Mm, my dad, my dad's has, you know, better stuff than this." He's gonna be like, "What?" It's like, "Dude, come on. Like,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Oh, that's a good
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: try to keep up."
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: might borrow that, but, but I'll have to flip it 'cause I have all boys,
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: There you go. "
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Here's what you have to do."
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yeah, yeah. I love it. All right. Which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you? And who would you not trust, and why?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: That's great, man. is-- strangely, I have a pretty quick answer of
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: No.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I would want. I have to do more thinking about who not. Thomas Merton, if he wants to offer me, uh, I'll probably take his recommendation because he was moo- probably moody enough to know, like, what it's gonna like, what it's gonna feel like, what the temperature's like.
Where are you [01:03:00] having this? What are you pairing it with? Who are you with? What are these people? uh, yeah, so I would trust Thomas Merton uh, robe and all Like, for sure. And interesting to me is like, does, does this have to be dead people? Oh, well, uh, there's certainly people alive that I would not trust, um, to, uh, to recommend wine.
But something tells me that St. Ignatius not be my guy. I, I, I love his teaching. I, I love his practices. I'm all about it. But... and it might just have been some of his, um, uh... I don't know. He, he was injured, and there was other things about his story. Uh, I don't think that I would've trusted, uh, if him to pick out something for me, so there's something funny about that.
I wish I had a little bit more... Uh, that's just a gut. St. Ignatius is probably not gonna be my guy to recommend wine to [01:04:00] me.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I think those are two, two unique picks to the, to the question. I like that. Very good. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Ooh. Well, there's a lot of those things. One specifically is idea that-- And I grew up in a very nondescript background, um, Christian background, Protestant background. will tell you, I have no idea what denomination the church was that my mom drug- dragged me, um, to go to. Um, but when start to kind of feel like you're inheriting certain kind of beliefs, the, the concept of hell, um, the way I probably thought about it early on in my teens, late teens, uh, early 20s, that's, that's as early as my faith kind of started to form around.
So my [01:05:00] understanding of hell has changed a lot probably in the last, uh, 25 to 30 years, and I've done some research on that because I have to. But, uh, yeah. The-- I, I believe I've see so much hell our society and it's of our own doing, it's of our own making, and I don't... My, my love and understanding of God as creator changed so much to where that, that's probably what I start and stop with the idea of me changing and morphing with the idea of hell, is with the love of God.
St. John of the Cross says that, that God res- like, insists on only being known by love. And if that's the case, then a God of wrath and anger to create us only to possibly watch us [01:06:00] burn a strange and, uh understanding of our creator and our communion. So that's definitely one of the big ones.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: It's amazing how we can make something feel normal that logically when you unpack it, you go, "This is anything but normal."
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: But if enough people believe it and talk about it and, you know, just, Yeah.
this is the thing. And Yeah, that's uh, that's one a lot of people can relate with of, "Hey, I grew up with this, but when I started poking at it,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: doesn't look like Jesus."
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Uh, okay, what do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in the US today? Take your pick.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: that's gonna hit anything if you just throw something. I, I really do believe this. [01:07:00] We have-- I see this because w- the research that I do when I'm on Threads, Threads is research to me. Uh, I don't do anything but Instagram and Threads, I do Threads for research and it, and it's been extraordinary, uh, some of the findings.
We have watched an entire generation of people walk away from the church because of hypocrisy. So your churches start to empty, and certain s- churches are gonna feel that before others. But people are walking away because they, they, they're not leaving Jesus. They're not leaving their faith in God. It just looks really different.
But they aren't going to give money and presence and time resources to a institution that is harming [01:08:00] their peers, friends, or themselves.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yeah.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: have to figure that
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Hmm. What is something blowing your mind right now that you're learning? Maybe from Threads.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: No, it's not that. It would be the cosmos. I love space, and I love quantum physics and all of these things, and I am... The, the, idea that light is still expanding the universe is beyond us, that creation is still happening.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: [01:09:00] Hmm.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: gosh, and why wouldn't It
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: You know the thing that blows my mind about space is that like, the majority of space is what we refer to as dark matter, and scientists don't know what it?
is.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yes. Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: just like, what? We don't know what the majority of space is?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: good.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: I just fi-- I have like... We can, we can, like, feel pretty smart about a lot of things, and then you go, yeah. that's the majority of it.
We ca- we call it dark matter. We don't really know what it is."
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I love that mystery, and I take, I just take solace in that sometimes, too. It's just like, I don't know. We don't know. They don't know. The most brilliant minds the planet, alive or dead, still don't know, and that's
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: [01:10:00] That's crazy to me Like the amount of things we do know
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Right.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: do, and you're like, Yeah, we don't know that.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: You're like...
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Oh, it's so good.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: That's so good. What's something you're excited about right now?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Well, it's not baseball season, uh, we're only a week in, but, uh, I'm excited about some of the learning I believe I had ahead of myself, as well as watching people lean into conversations together, like safely. Uh, we, we just did a book study through Lent where 17, 18 of us got together and we ha- we have friends that have, uh, an Irish pub in downtown,
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Yes.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: us key where we, we do a, a, [01:11:00] uh, a mission there on Sunday evenings, but they let us come in on Wednesday mornings to do this book study.
I li- I left every one of those with just like, gosh, this gives me so much hope. I'm looking forward to like the next conversation. And one of my favorite things is like to, uh, like I did with this book, I wanted to provide threads. Like here's a thread, pull it, where it goes. uh, I, I think that that's what looking forward to on a, on a weekly basis, on a daily basis.
I just love to listen and watch and learn from being with people, And I'm an introvert, so this really says something
of
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Hmm.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: time with people and learning like what makes them tick, but also learning from their, um, if they're vulnerable enough to share their pain, when they hear something Like, oh my gosh, this gives me hope.
Um, uh, gosh, I'm looking forward to that. I get, I get to do [01:12:00] that. That's, uh, one of the parts of my job that I get to do, and so I'm always looking forward to that.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: As a fellow introvert, I would tell you that is an indicator to me that.
you are very healthy in your, in your personal time because you are f- you have figured out how to meet your own needs to be what you need to be so then you are able to fully embrace... 'Cause, you know, there's seasons of my life where I'm like, "I don't wanna be around anybody at all," and it's like, it's 'cause I'm unhealthy, right?
There's other seasons where it's like, no, I'm really enjoying being with people. It's because I'm taking care of myself and, you know, doing all that. The other question I have, are you drinking on Wednesday mornings?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: No.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: So you're at an Irish pub
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: coffee.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Wow.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Does the pub serve coffee?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: They allow us to make it,
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Oh, okay. This is interesting.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: yeah,
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: you said, you said the Irish pub, and I was all on board, and then you said Wednesday morning, and I'm like, "Okay,
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: It's the only time that we could do
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: that's a curveball."
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: I know. Yeah, we [01:13:00] visit that pub quite frequently enough, so they have a wonderful happy hour, it's definitely one of those joints when you walk in, know somebody, like numerous people, and it's never get in and get out. You're there to just be a part of the group.
And about 6:30 or 7 o'clock every night that I have been there, that's my cue to leave because it gets so loud. It's a very small place, and it's just brick, and it's just like da, da, da, da, you know? It's chaos, and that's usually when, "Okay, I'm done here." And, uh, but man, it, yeah, it's so much fun, and it's just a staple in our little downtown USA kinda Main Street.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: That's beautiful. All right, is there anything I have not asked you that you feel like you gotta get in before we close this episode, or otherwise it would be an injustice?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: No, Jeremy, I, I really enjoyed this. I think, uh, I'm looking forward to reading your book, and [01:14:00] I'm looking forward to maybe even going back through some of the other guests you've had on here. I think the, the type of mindfulness that you have and the space that you provide is, uh, great, and so I've enjoyed it.
Um, and I can't say that about, um, all of those. So, um, yeah. It's great, man. I've-- this has been great.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Well, thank you so much. Well, hey, if someone's resonating with you, they're like, "I like this guy," what's the easiest way... You've, you've said a couple social media. What's the easiest way for them to find you online and connect with what you're doing?
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Yeah, just s- find Instagram or, uh, you know, Threads. I mean, chadjarnagin.com is my website, but it takes you to all that stuff, but that's just information stuff. If you wanna connect and stuff, it would be, uh, Instagram probably.
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: Well, Chad, I have thoroughly enjoyed officially meeting you. We have interacted, we have known of each other for a while. I'm glad we've closed the loop. We've, we've completed the [01:15:00] circle, and you are absolutely a delight. I love the way you're doing ministry. I love your heart. I thoroughly enjoyed your book, and I'm excited for more people to be exposed to these ideas, to resonate the inward and the outward, and to figure out how do we be in congruence of all of this.
So Thank you. for the work that you're doing and the way that you're being faithful despite it not being a gigantic crowd. I love that. And, uh, thank you for joining us on the podcast today.
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: Thank you. It's been great. This is the first episode of "Jernigan and Jarnigan."
jeremy_1_04-02-2026_110325: That's right, dear listener. You are here on episode one of Journegan or Journey Getter, however we call it. Hey, this
squadcaster-a268_1_04-02-2026_130325: great
