The Feral Spirit (with Ben Price) | Ep. 73
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Hey, friends. I wanna let you know as we begin this episode that we currently have two spots left for our wine and whiskey trip happening in September. Dates are September 25th through the 27th, and this is in Oregon wine country. This is a trip for the fellas out there. And, basically, it's a weekend experience designed to create more healthy men because I think we need that.
And so we're creating space for guys to talk about what does it mean to be a healthy version of ourselves? How do we do a better job, navigating this role we have? And so if that is interesting to you, this is a weekend of discussion as well as getting to drink wine and whiskey with the people who made it.
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty amazing. It's one of my favorite things. We did one last year, and I tried it, [00:01:00] and it was a big hit. And a number of those guys are coming back on this one, and we got some new people as well, and we've got two spots left. So if that is interesting to you, there's a link in the show notes.
You can find out more. We'd love to have you join us. It's an incredible experience and a chance to get away, recharge your batteries, and hopefully get some good perspective with some other guys out there of how to do all this well. So check out our wine and whiskey trip September 25th through the 27th.
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith.
And today's conversation goes all over the place in the best of ways. And so you're just gonna have to buckle up because you will not know where we go next because I didn't know where we were going next. And yet I loved how this conversation traversed all sorts of different specifics and yet had such a [00:02:00] beautiful theme of following Jesus in the midst of all of it.
It was a conversation with Ben Price. Ben studied economics and political science in undergrad. Then he went to Asbury Theological Seminary to study urban studies and church planting. He went through a deconstruction process and left church participation, but always felt like he was following Jesus through the process.
Then he worked in beverage retail as the wine director for the last eight years at one of the premier independent wine shops in West Michigan. Now he works as the beverage director at one of the premier independent beer, beer retailers in the country. He wrote a book of poetry in 2021 reflecting on his observations of the table and the spirit in the midst of a pandemic, and Ben shares a few of his poems in the episode.
He spends his time teaching and gathering people around all kinds of glasses and tables. He is the beer coordinator [00:03:00] for the Theology Beer Camp for the second year this year, and that's something we've talked about on previous episodes, and we get into it a little bit in the episode as well. He is the father of three kids and the husband to one amazing woman for 27 years this summer.
This is such a great episode of someone who is following Jesus well and keeps adjusting to whatever that needs to look like in his life, and I think will be an encouragement for you today as well. This is episode 73, The Feral Spirit.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly. If this was SportsCenter, that would be, like, such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is, like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.
[00:04:00] Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kinda geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had, like, three sips of this wine, and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you [00:05:00] dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.
You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know. I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I... Ooh. I got a little spicy there.
It's the peach wine. Apparently, the wine is... Here we are. Queer we are. Beer we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guests drink wine. It makes sense now.
Yeah. I get it. A little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. [00:06:00] Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice, isn't it? Cabernet and Pray, yeah.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Well, today we've got a pastor's kid from the Midwest who grew up to become an expert in beer and wine. Welcome to the podcast, Ben.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: We are going to have a great wine focused conversation today, and I'm excited for this. So let's start by explaining what's in our glasses. Today I am going to Oregon. I'm not actually a member of this winery, but, uh, this is Lemelson Pinot Noir from the their St. Sterner Vineyards 2022. It's a pinot noir from Oregon though, so it's got, it's got my heart.
I love it. It's, it's see-through. So, you know, you're not dealing with any like, cloudy, sugary stuff from California. Uh, but uh, it's just the good stuff I'm getting. Tart, cranberry, tart cherry, but not overpowering, jammy or [00:07:00] fruity, and then with some minerality to it that I just think are super fun. So I'm excited to enjoy this glass.
Ben, what are you drinking today?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I've got a, a pretty, uh, sentimentally special bottle. I'm drinking a 2000 Chateau Lalu. This is an Andre Luton wine before he passed away in 2019. this is a, so this has got 26 years on it. This is a left bank Bordeaux it is, um, drinking still delightful. can see the color is. See in here, but the color's got a little bit of a tawny to it.
That rim is starting to clear a little bit, but it's still quite dark. You can see for a 26-year-old wine that's still got a lot of, a lot of life in it on my nose, I'm still getting graphite. I'm still getting some really nice wet earth. There's some like dried current. You can see those tertiary flavors are starting to pick up as the age gets a little bit older.
So we've moved from like fresh fruit to dried fruit, a little bit of sage and [00:08:00] um, and menthol notes coming through with a little bit bit of, uh, cab franc in, it's in there.
You put more blood and iron sanguine notes on the pallet. A really nice orange zest
I get from some h bozos. It's really fun to have that kind of citrus component kind of come through as Arin, kind of bitterness. Tannins are still meat body right on the front and sides of my tongue. it's drinking really, really well.
I mean, I don't know that I'd wanna hold onto it too much longer. This was actually a gift. I just transition from one wine shop to a, a different shop, was to be a beverage director somewhere. And this was a gift from one of my, uh, reps, uh, a, a goodbye gift. So I was thrilled to have it,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: what a gift.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: it up.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah,
that might be the oldest bottle bin that someone's ever drank on the podcast.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I wanted to do something wine special at least. Either that or I was gonna go the other way and bring out linking owl or something like that. But
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: I have had, um, Charles Shaw on here before, so I've, I've tried to,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: check.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: it wasn't two buck Chuck, it was the reserve line. 'cause you know, we've got [00:09:00] standards, but, uh, I try to hit the spectrum for people, you know, so it's not all high end stuff. It's stuff that people can find and, you know.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: we had, we have two rules at the wine shop that I was at and at the place I'm at now. And rule number one is there's always more room at the table. And rule number two is we don't ever up anybody else's young.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: wherever you're at, let's find the best version of that and then we'll get you going on your journey.
And that's usually how we, we kind of suck in our new people, our new wine people. So,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: yeah. So sometimes you need a gateway. You need that gateway bottle to get you on your journey to something else.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Mm-hmm. That's right.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Okay, Ben, one of the questions I love to ask people so that our listeners can get a little bit of your story, a little bit of background on who you are and who we're gonna get to meet today. If I were to look at your journey in faith, especially how it's changed, how it is evolving, what would you say like the last 10 years have looked like for you?
How has your faith changed in that time?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So since 2016, so I'm a little bit older, uh, than I [00:10:00] might even look. I dunno, maybe I look that old. I'm almost 50. And so I've, um, I actually went through most of my deconstruction by the time I got to 2016. I was in seminary, uh, let's see, at graduate. So I was in seminary from 2002 to 2004 Asbury Theological Seminary.
um, while I was there, it was already starting to, things were already starting to shift and then, um. I had, by the time I got to 2016, I was finishing up my last church planting gig. I have always worked by vo vocational. I've never been paid by a church. I kind of watched that as a, as a pastor's kid.
I kind of watched what that did to my family and, I never wanted in my, Income tied to my faith journey. Um,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: does complicate things.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: that does complicate things and, and I have a lot of sympathy for guys. I mean, I still work with a lot of guys that are going through it and still employed by churches and, and it's nice to have somebody who's been on that side and see [00:11:00] if just made, but they can be honest and, and have those hard conversations sometimes and question things.
But, so yeah. So for the last, um, uh, 12 years I've been, working in retail. Before that I was in restaurants, uh, all with beverages and trying to, over the last five or six years really. Reanimate, uh, the table in the spiritual way. and so we'll get into this more later probably, but this idea of the feral spirit, one that's colonized, right?
Um, the one that's wild, that, that captures us, uh, that we can't control. Um, and so that happens that tables in people's homes, it happens in scotch clubs and wine clubs. It happens, you know, uh, spontaneously. Um, but it does have some patterns on the kinds of places that it usually happens. And so we've been trying to articulate that and to move that forward, uh, move that kind of, those expressions forward in, you know, doing a very public spirituality.[00:12:00]
but, um, so I'm onto like the, I don't even know if reconstruction's the right word, but I'm onto the, what does it look like to follow Jesus through this space now? Um. You know, and I've heard other people say on the podcast, but I, I didn't have, even as a pastor kid, I grew up in the Wesleyan Church. But I was just reflecting with my brother today that, uh, we didn't have, I grew up in Flint, Michigan and in the nineties, and so Flint, Michigan in the nineties was still a union town.
So there was always this tension in an evangelical church in a union town that politics never got really involved, right? Because you had the kind of the prolife movement starting and, and, and really in full swing. But most of the people at the church were Democrats. Most of 'em were union members, right?
And so we were actually kind of blessed with not having a lot of politicization while I was growing up in a pretty evangelical environment. It was a little bit more of a don't ask, don't tell. It's not, you know, this more of that Midwest polite. Um, [00:13:00] and I think that really helped keep us from some trauma that would've happened otherwise.
And so I came to deconstruction intellectually. Like I, you know, I don't think you could go through being a pastor's kid without some trauma, but it all felt little T to me. know, it didn't, you know, I didn't have some of the stories other people had. I just looked around and I didn't see, it didn't look like Jesus to me at all.
it, and this was back in, you know, like I said, this. Back when George Bush was president, right? Like this was a long time ago. so the critique kept getting stronger and stronger, people's willingness to engage with that critique kept getting less and less. And eventually it was like, I feel like I'm doing more, more harm than good.
so I just stepped out and, you know, we tried a couple evangelical, or I mean a couple of Episcopal kind of like high church things that could be a part of, but my family was young and they thought it was weird and they didn't understand it. And so, uh, we just kind of said, all right, maybe we need a break.
and we're still in that space [00:14:00] and, uh, but yet we still are having conversations with people like you and trying to, to figure out what does it following Jesus look like with an American Christianity, maybe if is a little more subverted, uh, than we wish it was.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: I think you're a great example for a lot of people. That you can deconstruct what you were given without having to walk away from all of it. And a lot of people think, oh, well if I challenge this or I question this, or I am honest intellectually about some of my doubts here, then that means I have to just give the whole thing up.
And one of the things I love is just giving example after example of real life people who are offering something different. Like, no, that's not what you're doing. And that's not what you've done. And yet you were willing to go into those, you know, danger zones of, okay, I'm gonna ask the question. I'm gonna see where this goes.
I'm gonna acknowledge what doesn't feel right. In that deconstruction, you've shift from what we might consider more the traditional church spaces. And a lot of what you do these days is focused more around the table. And I know that's a, [00:15:00] uh, an image that really resonates with you. Tell us a little bit more.
Why, why do you find such a good. Avenue for faith and for community in the table. Maybe then you know differently than you had in some of your church spaces growing up.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I think it's important to acknowledge too, that like, um, we, we still had good examples of the table even growing up, right? Like, I've mentioned before like, love, loved church potlucks and carry ins or you know, hot dish, past kinds of things. I thought that was like that was really of God and you felt it when you were in it, right?
It felt like the realist version of church to. Me always. my wife actually came outta the Church of the Brethren, uh, in Ohio and they have the agape feast, right? Like, which is like, they saw how we did communion and they're like, whatcha you guys doing? This is nothing
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Lame.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: like, and so we both came out really big table traditions already.
but they came with all of [00:16:00] these trappings and kind of restrictions. so when I was work in graduate school, I started working in restaurants and I just really enjoyed freedom that that space gave me really real with folks and for folks to be real with me. And it feel like a normal kind of interaction.
And I did that until my kids got older and restaurant games fall hard for, you know, young families. And so I transitioned to retail I said, but I, I wanted it to always still be about their table, right? And, uh, and redeeming that table. And not to say that it was bad, but to say that we could make it even better.
And that, especially beer and wine. And spirits, um, do elevate those experiences if we're mindful to see it and, and to, you know, uh, and, and to participate in it. You know, we will often say that it's not the spirit that comes and goes, it's our eyesight, you know, so a big part of what I'm trying to do is open people's eyes to the, to the spirit encounters that are already happening in their everyday [00:17:00] lives that they don't need to manufacture, they don't need to to, um, no magic words, There's just a participatory openness, uh, and a willingness and to step into an unafraid space and then decide, um, to, to abide in that space completely, and be fully present. My definition of love is unafraid, presence oriented toward care, and that's the kind of God I can serve. Right. that acknowledges that fear is real, life is suffering, the universe is trying to kill us.
All of that stuff makes sense. and it's reasonable to be afraid. And yet we have these experiences in our lives, these mystical experiences where we are at peace, where there's joy, where we feel grace present. And I've said all the time, that's why I'm still a Christian. Right? It's not from any argument.
It's not even from any relationships. It's about these mystical experiences that [00:18:00] you have a few times in your life are way truer than anything that you I've ever read. Right? Um, you know, my, my favorite, uh, spiritual guide through all of this is, um, Robert, Robert Ferra Cup.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: He wrote a fantastic book called The Supper of the Lamb.
It was an Episcopal priest and cook and theologian in upstate New York. And, uh, book famously spent one chapter on an onion.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah, it's, it's a great book.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: And then after that, he immediately goes into dicing an onion with no extra. You know, and it's just like one of those moments where you're just, um, aware of the, the beauty and spiritualness and, and the potential of a special moment in something as simple as an onion.
Um, and so we just started trying to invite people to open their eyes in those moments all the time. And alcohol really does help with that. It's a level of, disarming that is particularly helpful, um, particularly at, at a dinner pace. [00:19:00] Um, and it has a levels of nuance. I think it's fun that we call it spirit, Like, I think that that's a, there's something to that, um, that it gives you a little more imagination and a little bit more, it gives you more than what you would get like from a Diet Coke, you know?
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: It certainly does. So let's, let's expand on that. That's obviously a huge theme of this podcast and a lot of the events and things that we do with, with Community and Wine Co. Is using, you know, wine in particular for us as a tool. And this, you know, this stemmed for me, I would notice on a Saturday we would meet a couple at a winery and my wife and I would spend the afternoon at a tasting with them, have phenomenal conversation.
I would see 'em at church the next day and it felt, it felt much less than the experience we had had at the winery. And so I just remember thinking like this. This glass has some power, uh, to really, uh, you know, allow [00:20:00] us to have this engagement and this interaction is, is better because of that. Now, obviously it can get abused as can most things, but what we're trying to foster is how to do it well and how to have a healthy understanding of, of this as a tool.
As a resource. So why, why, you know?
beer and wine in particular for you, you obviously, obviously mentioned spirits, but why, why are these such a good avenue? What, what do you love about them that allows that deeper connection?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I think that for both of them, just the, the first of it's always the slowing down piece.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: You know? Um, partly because of the psychological part of it, right. We've invested in this now, you know, this isn't table water. Um, and so there's a part of you that, that feels like, oh, if I'm gonna. If I'm going to pay some money for this, even if it's, you know, four bucks for a beer.
know, you want to, you wanna savor, you wanna figure out why you just paid $4 for this thing or whatever. It's, and then the second thing is just you [00:21:00] can't break it fast like you can, but it's not a good idea. You know, not even just from a, from an alcohol perspective, just it's not fun. You know, the, the fun part is seeing it evolve over time, Even think it's a point where it evolves past where you like it. Like that's part of this journey. And I tell people that when we're teaching, like there's these two truths that I'm trying to get at, at the same time, one of them is that whatever you are tasting, your palate is absolutely right, and I need you to trust that 100%, right?
You don't have to have the right words for it. There are no shoulds in tasting. Whatever you're getting is what you're getting. I want you to say those things, right, at the same time. When you walk away from this table, I kind of need you to forget everything that you just learned. And the reason is because the amount of variables going into our experience, what we're having right now are almost impossible to replicate.
And it happens because of meat and it happened 'cause of the wine. And it happens because of everything else that's going on. [00:22:00] The temperature of the wine, it's a different bottle. That might be a different year. It's been open longer or less open. I had Korean barbecue for lunch. I, you know, had a, you know, it's overcast out, the other person was a New York Yankees hat and I didn't know what to do with that information.
Right? Like all of these things kind of influence the experience you're actually having. And so we try not to put a lot of weight. We, we try not to put a lot of evaluative weight into those buckets, but we try to put a ton of descriptive To those experiences, And so all of that leads to just a level of thoughtfulness that what ends up happening is you've had 10 minutes passed and you realize you weren't afraid in those 10 minutes, right?
That you are at peace. And that's something that the tables is not the only thing that brings, but it's one of the big things that it brings, right? Is when it's in these environments where they're safe, you're safe people, and there's something to direct your attention to that makes you be [00:23:00] present, which is the only place you can experience peace, right?
Is in the presence. Um, you actually are not afraid for a second. And that's, that's the great grift, the great gift of alcohol, I think.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah, Gila Klinger has a phrase she calls holy tips. And I love that image of just the right amount of, you know, okay, I'm, I'm not as guarded or cautious, you know, not, not obviously inebriated, but not quite as protective as I normally am. And then when you, you pair that with the table and you pair that with community and you know, that's where, you know, I love, I love all the stories that emerge from this podcast of people sharing, you know, really great memories with wine.
And you get to hear what it was about that moment and you know, it, it's something you remember. And I, I, I love that. I'm curious on this, 'cause you're reminding me when I, when I did my WSET training, which is, uh, one of the, uh, for [00:24:00] our, our listeners out there who don't know what that is, that's, uh, basically certification that is for wine or beer or spirits.
But it's the more formalized training of what you know, how to, how to break it down, how to do all that. One of the things that was interesting to me when I was doing those, um, different levels is that they would often say, there are certain things you should be getting out of this wine. But then they would make room to say, you can get other things too, but we need you to at least get these things.
And I always thought that was such an interesting, you know, like, um. I learned like as a little, you know, a little cheater technique. If it was a white wine, always guess lemon, right? Because odds are, It's probably one of them, right,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: right,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: And so you didn't get penalized for saying too many, but you did get penalized if you missed one of the ones that was, you know, on it.
So let's talk a little bit about wine is scary for people, and I think it's that [00:25:00] mix of, it's intriguing because they know there's more there than they understand. And so it, there's an intrigue to that. But then the flip side of that coin is, it seems scary because I, don't know how to talk about it or what I'm supposed to do.
And so then people lean out how, how do we lean into both of those and help me make sense of there's certain things you're supposed to get and everything else is fine.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I don't, uh, you know, is one of those things that even if, you know, it's one thing for Wine Pro to be able to articulate that, you know, so when you're doing WW set training, it's just making sure that you can describe what you're, what you're getting as far as ity ISS concerned. don't worry quite so much about that with, with, you know, people who are just enjoying it, because I get language them pretty quickly, right?
And so it's not that you can't, but the two things, one. We're never gonna dumb it down. And what I mean by that is this is the most complicated culinary field in the world. It just is. Italy alone has over 400 indigenous varietals that we drink from, Like there's no, there's just no getting around that.
It's in multiple [00:26:00] languages. It's 8,000 years old. It's, there's, there's just too much to think that this is that complicated. your experience at drinking, it doesn't have to be. What I usually start with is, let's just talk about, are you, let's say it's a red wine. red fruit or is it black fruit?
Right. Is it red fruit. Is it more like cherries or is more like strawberries? Right. Alright. What do you taste that isn't fruit? you just kind of start, you know, and then I think some people are really good, you know, deductive thinkers that way. Other people are way more inductive thinkers, where the first thing they taste is like, this tastes like my grandmother's perfume when I was nine.
Which is awesome. And then what we do is, okay, what is that? Probably what probably was about that, right?
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah. Yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Oh, there was an alcohol kind of final bitterness to it. Oh, there was this orange. know, like in either way it works and you've gotta be flexible enough as a professional, I think, to meet somebody where their, what their, uh, [00:27:00] their style of understanding taste is.
Um, and just go from there. The other thing that we teach a lot is that, um, your brain can't do evaluative thinking and descriptive thinking at the same time. So when we taste together, we're really clear to say, I don't care whether you like it or not right now. You know, when we do our Saturday tastings, we do six wines and there'll be a various price points and styles or whatever, and there's that.
Inevitably someone's doing rack and stack as we're going, oh, I like this one more than I like that one. what happens is the moment that that occurs, they'll get to the end and they'll know exactly which one they liked the most and they'll be right. And then I'll ask them why. And they'll have no idea.
Right, because your brain shuts off that descriptive thinking and it's just deciding is this better than the one before it or not? So we say, all right, let's suspend the evaluative thinking and just work on describing. Then we'll do all of our evaluations at the end, and we'll figure out what you like and maybe, and then maybe you'll learn something about why you liked it.
And so if they come away with that one takeaway, I learned that I struggle with a wine that [00:28:00] has this, you know, tobacco cigar kind of earthiness to it today. That was not something that was appealing to me. might notice a trend then the next three or four times that comes up, oh, I had a brunello and I didn't really like that.
And that either, oh, I had a Shiraz and I didn't really like that part of that either. And now you can start to develop some. Some tasting trends that you see in yourself, then you almost flip it on your head and go, all right, now I'm gonna find a version of this that I do like. Right. Particularly what somebody else is paying.
Or when you're doing the tastings. Right. But you're actually hunting for that, right? Because now you're trying to disprove your, your, your bias. Right. And that's when you go from a casual wine drinker to someone who's obsessed like us, right? My, my white whale for that forever was Pinotage, um, uh, which is the, one of the only grapes, uh, native to, uh, South Africa.
And it's a, um, hybrid that they made there between cin, so, Pinot. No. [00:29:00] I find it to be one of the most atrocious drinking experiences in white in wine. always, to me, smells like a tire fire. It's got this burnt rubber pheno that I just cannot get behind. I was like, I'm bound and determined to find one that I like.
And I was at, uh, at a wine Maker Inn and his wife happened to be a chemist and she isolated compound in Pinotage that gave that tire fire note and they
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Really.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: breeding it out out of their vines. And it wasn't that expensive with bottle. It's 25 Pinotage. And I was like, oh, I can drink this. Oh, I found my bottle.
Okay. I still like all wine. I can still say that I like all wine 'cause I found a pin Pinot Ash I can drink. Um, but that's, that's when you can get on our side of the table where it's like, all right, now I've got it. I'm obsessed. But
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: It's so funny.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: that we've done it where we've helped to grow wine drinkers at, at the stores anyway.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: So I think, like I've done some industry tastings where, you know, you, depending on the, the day, you know, you're like 12, [00:30:00] 15 different, you know, tastings that you're, you're doing, and most of the time you're spitting just because these are, you know, you're trying to get through a, a v volume of these. And it's funny when you do it, the same people regularly, you start to like notice quirky things that, that, oh, this guy likes that, I like this, whatever.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yeah.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: like for me, that fresh asphalt flavor is not my jam. Like.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Okay.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Don't like it. But I have a friend who I regularly taste with who loves it. And so like if I take a sit before he does, I'll be like, Oh.
you're gonna love this one, because it doesn't matter what it is. 'cause I'm picking up that flavor, right.
And I, know he'll like it. And then we always joke, he'd be like, yes, this is a good one. And I'm always, always like, Ugh, it's not for me. So here's my question for you. What's the weirdest wine flavor that you like?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Oh.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: That if someone were to regular taste with you and then they, they picked it out, they'd be like, oh, Ben's gonna love this one.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I, I'll give you, I'm gonna borrow my wife's [00:31:00] language for this flavor that I also love. Okay. My wife, as I said, is from western Ohio, total farm girl, farm country. And she loves big, earthy, dirty, you know, not, not, uh, not necessarily dirty as far as fermentation, not necessarily natural wines, but big earthy wines like, uh, like big Northern Rone, sra, like that.
Big Grenache. And she'll put her nose all the way in a glass and just, just bury it in there. And she'll go, Hmm. Sweet poo. that is her like, and that that, and it led me to actually articulate what that was. That like when you grew up near farms, you knew the difference between live earth and dead earth.
Right? Like you knew when there was a ripe soil that was ready and that was a certain kind of manure and stink and earth, and then you knew when you would smell the roadkill, right?
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Which is a different kind of death and a different kind of that, right? And that, [00:32:00] that became kind of this note of like affinity for what it reminded me of, uh, in the vineyard, right?
Um, when it was done, especially in darker riper wines. I always have just, and other people are like, I don't know how you get past that man. It just smells like barnyard to me. So that's one of them. I would say a lot of the, a lot of the flavors that come outta Orange wines, amber wines, skin contact whites, are also in that world where you're just like, it's, and the kindest way to say it is marmalade, right?
When you get that really bitter orange peel, grapefruit, peel, marmalade, note, I think a lot of people, that's the turnoff for, I absolutely love it, especially with food. I think it's one of the great food wines of the world. Um, so are two that, that I think I can get a lot of eye rolls from other people about
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: So, so Ben's a fan of the the sweet poo. That's what we're getting here.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: the sweet poop. I'm a really fan of my wife, who is also a fan of the [00:33:00] sweet poop.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Okay. That's fair. That's fair.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Before we go on, I have to tell you a story about, about spitting.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Okay. '
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: cause you'll, it also involves my wife and it's fantastic. So like, you know, we'll go on these industry trips on occasion and I was visiting them. So Michigan happens to be a quite a nice, uh, quite a nice wine scene. Um, we're like the fifth largest, uh, wine producing state as far as fine wine is concerned.
Um, and especially aromatic whites like Rieslings and Pinot GRI grow really well up in the peninsula, in the Traverse City area. And so I was on a four day trip and I was seeing 19 wineries in four days and my wife went with me. And at this point, this is like 2019, wife is picking on me ruthlessly.
She's a labor delivery nurse. So she does like real work just ruthlessly picking on me about how my job's not a real job. And she was gonna
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Which is fair.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: by drinking with me the whole time. And I was like, okay. So the first day we only had four wineries and it was fine. The second day we have six wineries.
In the fifth winery, we're down in the cellars [00:34:00] the guy's just like barrel thieving things and like pulling, you know, so many wines and they're, we're just walking along the cellars. So we're not, we don't have a bucket and we're just spitting into the drain. And my wife hates spitting in the best of circumstances, and she especially does not like spitting.
Fine wine and these are some of the best wines we're gonna taste. And so she just refuses to spit. I keep warning her. I was like, honey, you're gonna regret this. This is gonna be a problem you're gonna regret. I said, no, that's fine. And so we can get to the next place. The last place we're stopping, I'm talking to the owner and over his shoulder, I can see my wife just kind of wobbling back and forth, back and forth.
I said, Hey, um, do you need to get some fresh air? And she went off and she got in the car and then I had to park her under a tree let her sleep it off while I went in to eat with my parents and my kids at her favorite restaurant. Uh, and that next day she spent everything. And then the last day she said, you know, I haven't spent a lot of time with the kids.
I really feel like they probably need to spend some time with me on this, and totally bailed out on my last day of tasting. So [00:35:00] it was a little harder than she gave it credit for.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: You know, it is interesting because I, I feel the same way when I'm with a winemaker. I, it feels like the most insulting thing in the world to spit because, you know, I'm like, you have poured yourself into this craft. You are now sharing it.
with me. And to spit this out in front of you, I mean, feels like a, like a literal, a slap in The face.
So if I'm with a winemaker now, again, if you're doing six in a day, you're your host. But I will do everything I can not to spit in that situation. Um, so thankfully most of my industry tastings, you know, it's a, it's a lineup of bottles. The winemakers aren't there. Um, no, but that is truly funny. And, you know, the most I've ever done in a day was four tastings, uh, or four wineries and.
I mean by the fourth, it's like you're just giggly and you're like, I'd,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: the, the joke is always, this tastes like red wine.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: yeah,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: like red wine.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: [00:36:00] tastes, sir, that was a chardonnay. This tastes like red wine.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: It's all red wine. Yeah. Even when we would, we would do, uh, some of like our wine trips and, you know, we would do three wineries in a day and I realized that's too much. People, people can't do that. And so now we usually cap it at two.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: pros can do it, especially if you're spitting. Pros can do it. but folks that just, or or folks that just know, you know, it, it's, it's hard. It's hard 'cause it is delicious and it's hard to have that kind of, that kind of discipline to be like, all right, we're gonna settle this down a little
bit.
But, mean, truly when it's like some of the best wine you've ever had, everything in your body is like, do not spit this out. You know, 'cause like, this is delicious. And then your, your brain is telling you, this is gonna be bad.
we were in Santa Barbara, in Pa Robs this last May and, uh, for my wife's 50th birthday and some other stuff. And, I went to like several days of wine tasting. We were at Epic Winery Epoch Winery, which is like one of these great high-end Paso places. It's like, [00:37:00] all on the west side, so it's all limestone soils, big GSM blends, everything's 14, five, 15%, but so polished and refined, and I just looked at my friends and I was like, we're going in on this one.
We'll stay here as long as we got, because I'm here.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: The only other time I can think of like that is they have these, um, like vendor events that will come into like Phoenix and it's all these different wineries from all around the country and they're trying to get, you know, local shops and restaurants and everything to buy. And I've been to a few of those where the entire room, I mean, it's just aisle after aisle after aisle of all of these wines.
And you can drink as whatever you want, you know? And. That's the other day where it's like, I'm, I'm not driving. I'm just gonna get someone to drive me and I'm going to have a good time and enjoy a lot of these, a lot of these wines,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I will say that even in those times, like I, I'm, I'm at the spot where I'm probably good at 45 or 50 [00:38:00] tastes, then it's just your palate. So fatigue, you can't taste anything at all. know, and I'll finish with some sparkling just to kind of clean it up a little, but it's very, very hard to
really the joke with my friend and I be becomes at that moment where you, you, you get to one where you're drinking it and you're like, Yeah. I, I would drink this. And then You like, check what it is and it's like $150 wholesale. You know, you're like, what in, what is wrong with me? Of course I would,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: drink this, but, you know, you're like, yeah, this is not bad.
I, I think I could handle this. And you're like, oh, my, my palate's shot. So yeah, this is.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: too, just to kind of bring it back to like how we invite people into these spaces. When leaders or hosts, let's say, I like that, you know, probably in this world, I like that, that a little bit more. But when hosts show that level of vulnerability, again with, with some, you know, like with some boundaries, of course, but when they show that level of vulnerability and, and become, just allow themselves to get to that spot, it, [00:39:00] really disarms everyone.
You know, I'm in a new spot now and one of the first rules was I needed to make the daring decisions I could. So I knew some of them would fail. So that when, when it came time for us to talk about programming, everybody felt like their ideas were valid, right? And so that if Ben was willing to throw something out there that probably had a 20% chance of, of succeeding and he ended up looking silly because of it or, or didn't go like he wanted, then my idea is probably not that dumb.
And it just creates this little bit of disarming place for people to kind of, well, what if we do this? You know, like, so, know, one of my guys is a pipe guy, so we're doing a pipe and pastry stout pairing in June.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Um, you know, like, 'cause why, right? What's, you know, like anytime we can it up and do something different, it's a lot of fun.
So, yeah.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: It does bring out a whole different idea of what it means to be a host,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yeah.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: what it means to create space [00:40:00] for people to have. an experience.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Really bastardized, I think what hospitality is, right? Um, we have decided that somehow in performing for people as host, uh, that that somehow makes them feel welcome. And it's really the exact opposite. It, it
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: intimidated and makes you look good, and it, and anybody who's paying attention can kind of see through this, the insecurity that you're showing.
Um, in reality, it's, it's really your disposition towards them. You're willing to, yes. And, you know, you're willing to not be in control of the conversation. it's, it's way more about leaning in and learning and listening and, and evolving with them, um, not executing your plan.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Whatever you thought that was, you know, uh, I think that that's become a big part of, you know, I like being in, we might talk about beer camp a little bit.
I love being the beer [00:41:00] guy or the alcohol guy in theology circles, but I think I like even more being the theology guy in alcohol circles. Um, because both people need that profit, right? Like, no, I know you talk about being right on the inside of the out, you know, of the edge, right? And I'm just on the other side, on both sides, it feels like, right?
I'm just on the other side, uh, speaking into the spaces, I really like that place. Um, because it insists on some vulnerability, right? Both of those places are hard to, you know, particularly being the, the theology guy in a, in a wine circle, right? If you're gonna introduce those ideas, that, that takes a lot of vulnerability, and yet found that people want to go there and they're not, they're not afraid to go there.
As long as it doesn't feel boundaried by gotcha language or things that. know, could be potentially triggering. And so developing theology, and that is feral, you know, that colonized and that still talks about spiritual things. I wanna talk about ritual at some point and just [00:42:00] kind of how important these rituals are and why I think they're important.
Um, but that's, you know, like that to me is the really fun space to be in, in wine circles to, it's, it's not a lot of times where you can tell, look, a wine maker in the face and go, do you know that this stuff is even more important than you think it is? And you have actually something to say to that, that is true, that will be life giving to them.
Like, that's, that's such a cool message to be able to deliver to people who are doing this craft. And it's so easy to get caught up in, you know, my production numbers and, you know, what's my retail presence? How many minus am I on? Like, know, like, did I get scores? Whatever, you know, like when you can actually invite something metaphysical into their work, um, they're ready for it.
Uh, they really are.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Okay, So let's, let's trace back to a few things. You've, you've mentioned, uh, the feral spirit. Let's, let's hear you unpack that. What, what are your, uh, what are your ideas [00:43:00] there?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So I borrowed the term from, uh, from Robert, uh, Capin, uh, talking about the difference between feral and festal cooking, right? And so he's, the, the, this book that we were talking about earlier is, is a book, it's one recipe and it's Legs of Lamb for four people, for eight people, four times. he just keeps breaking down the lamb over and over and over again, making new things out of the same thing and this feral style of cooking.
And I really liked that image of spirituality. Once I left the church. I had this story from that trip in Santa Barbara that I could tell that we were, uh, on a boat going out to this channel island, the North Channel Islands, to do a little like little nature seeing. And while we're going out there, we are surrounded by a.
Mega pod of a thousand common dolphins. Even the marine biologists were like, I've seen this like twice in my life. Right? And so imagine a thousand dolphins surfing this boat, right? We didn't, we didn't come to them. They came to [00:44:00] us, right? And I'm just watching these dolphins at the front of the boat just as far as I can see, jumping and flipping and doing all this chatter.
And I'm reminded of a, of a conversation with another marine biologist who said, we don't have an evolutionary reason for why dolphins to do that. They just seem to do it for the sake of play. And I had this mystical moment, Jeremy, like in that moment where I was like, a dolphin engaging in spirit at a level of the dolphin can.
This is a dolphin saying everything in this ocean is trying to kill me and watch this back flip.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: and check this out.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Right? And that's what. The feral spirit is, it's these mystical moments. And so my most compassionate reading of the church is that we have people who've had these moments and then tried to create rituals to remember them because it's so easy to become afraid.
So there's, there's a reason why things like baptism and communion became some of our rituals, I think, right? It's these moments that we weren't afraid that we wanted to keep remembering, [00:45:00] right? so those rituals are really important, and yet, instead of us remembering. We colonized it, made God on our own image.
And, um, and it became part of our fear dialogue. of that, you know, that, that that power dynamic and fear, all of a sudden it became about are we doing it right? Right. The moment that the spirit didn't show up like we thought it did, we tried to manipulate the spirit, we tried to manipulate the situation.
We tried to, and then, you know, there's a group of people that are saying, well, you all must not be spiritual enough. Right? And then there's another group of people like my dad, who would've said the opposite. They would've said, I'm not doing enough. I'm not doing it right. The spirit's not showing up because I'm not holy enough.
Right? And, and that of course, you know, you know, flowed down to our family as well in some hard ways. But that was the earnestness of a leader, right? It wasn't like hypocrisy, it was the opposite. But he was trapped in the system where he thought he had to manufacture something to make it happen, right?[00:46:00]
And all he wanted to do was to trust that if he opened his eyes enough times. The spirit would be there again, but you don't get to control the spirit. And I think the sneaky thing that nobody talks about in churches, especially with ones that have more Pentecostal traditions, is we kind of know that we're manipulating it.
We kind of know that we're making it happen. And so there's a cheapening to it that happens even in our hearts. And then it gets less and less satisfying and we get more and more desperate. And we make bigger and bigger fearful decisions until soon we're, you know, in bed with Rome and Like, and there's all of these other things that are happening that we're compromising because we've lost what we had as opposed to you and I at a table drinking a glass of wine together.
Right. Or eating a beautiful, you know, played with pasta, whatever, getting on the floor and playing with your kids. Or listening or [00:47:00] playing music sharing stories with each other. Bergen's idea of neighborliness, right? These concrete acts of justice, right? And care or contemplative acts, contemplative practices, right?
Where we sit in silence and aren't afraid of that silence, right? These are those everyday rituals more spiritual encounters, but more precisely reminding us of the times where we did feel those things, right? And so it doesn't, we don't have to feel like every time you and I get together that, that the spirit's going to show up and it's gonna be this mystical kind of a, a moment.
'cause we also have the memory of all the times that it did. And that gives us this opportunity to just remember together. And when we remember together, then it reinforces both things because, you know, you remember something a little differently than I did and all of a sudden I'm sharing your memories too.
And when you do that as a community, now you're singing songs. Right now you're telling stories. Now you're saying, oh, you remember what Jesus did this. Oh, you remember what [00:48:00] Jesus did that. And that's when things actually get interesting because now we're creating experiences where all of our eyes are open at the same time with the potential of the spirit being there.
Right. But it didn't happen because we tried to make it happen. And happens because we remember that it did.
And that it can again. Right. So that's what I'm trying to do now in people's homes and in clubs and in, you know, public spaces. Any place that we can, we can gather and be serious about spiritual ideas without it having to have a brand put on it.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: I love that you're reminding me Walter Brueggeman talks about the freedom of God versus the accessibility of God and how, you know, is God free to show up when God wants and not show up? Or is God accessible to us? And we have figured out how to make God accessible and you know, in different eras of, you know, the church or like he talks, you know, through the Old Testament, [00:49:00] you know, when Solomon's king, now Solomon has access to God at all times and the King controls access, right?
Well then you lose the freedom of God and you know, so there's always this tension of, you know, do we control God? Can we make God appear When we want? Or is God free to do what God wants? And I, I think the way you're describing it is a beautiful way to navigate that, where we remember how God has shown up.
We remember that God has been accessible, right? But we also make space for the freedom of God to say we're not gonna force it. We don't control God. And so we, we, we keep showing up in hopes that God will show up. And when God doesn't, we remember the way God has and we let that, you know, carry us over to the next time.
I actually think that's a beautiful way of, of thinking about these ideas.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I can borrow your courage sometimes,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: If I'm doubting, if I'm scared that maybe that, maybe this is all made up, maybe I didn't have that early experience. So I start gaslighting myself when we're together. I can [00:50:00] borrow your courage
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: for that moment. Right? then maybe next time you're borrowing mine.
And both of those things become like the real reason why I'm committed to staying and doing this in community. Right? There's only two things I miss about church really. And it's singing in public together and politics. Right? And
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Paul looks.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: That's all I miss. I miss the table and I miss singing together.
And I think that that's the, that's the stuff right there, right? Um, that's where all the best stories are told. Sorry for preachers out there, but you have the third best stories in church.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Okay, let's talk theology beer camp, because this is something you and I are both a part of this. I guess this year will be your second year, This is my second year as the beer coordinator.
of being the beer coordinator, which
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yes.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: might not sound like a big deal dear listener, unless you've been there. And then let me tell you, This is a big deal. It is a, I've talked about [00:51:00] it before on the podcast.
It's a theology conference that serves beer, and you can have as much beer as you'd like while you're there. And I, I believe it starts at like, at 10:00 AM in the morning or something is when the first pour start. Maybe now that I know Ben, I'll get a little earlier poor, I'll just, you know, go up to my friend.
But, um. So this year, uh, not only is it be your second year but Cabernet and Prey has officially become a God pod, which is just another way of saying we're one of the official podcasts, I don't know, associated with theology, beer camp. That's it's unlike anything else I've ever been to. I went last year, I'm going to go again this year.
It, it's a wild time of talking about some beautiful theology making room for a bunch of, uh, varied perspectives, not only ideologically, but in practice and everyone being okay with that. it. is literally drinking beer in a church sanctuary with [00:52:00] pews. That felt very strange to me to bring my, my big old Stein with me, but the whole thing was awesome.
What, tell us how you got connected to this. What, what has that experience been like for you to, to have and and expression of church in, in this way?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yeah. Yeah. And it was crazy. I, um, I, I probably, so I got connected with trip through, um, so Bible for normal people was probably my. I, I'm not, you know, like I've gotten into the podcast world a lot more in the last couple years, but I, it really wasn't a thing that I was into too much. And so, uh, when I was really working on hermeneutic issues and kind of like, how do we understand scripture?
I, I worked a lot through some of Pete's books. And then Pete, Pete and Jared's podcasts, I think really helped me a lot. And then they talked about it. So I started to listen to trip. Everything he does whip over my head. I'm not a, you know, I have a, I have a seminary degree, but I'm not a theologian by any stretch.
That's not my world, but that's not my first world. And so, but I just, I just [00:53:00] cold called him. I just emailed em. I was like, Hey, trip, you need beer help? Uh, this is what I do. This is what I've done, and I've done these kinds of things before. And he is like, actually, we desperately need beer help. And so we were in St.
Paul, Minnesota last year. Uh, I went up there on vacation. We went to, uh, and met with a ton of brew breweries. We ended up having 25 different breweries represented at the camp. 50 unique beers on six taps plus cans. Uh, and it was an absolute blast. And then right after that, about two weeks later, trip called me up and said, wanna do it again next year we're gonna Kansas City.
And I was like, I'm in. Let's do this. And so we just got back from a site visit about three weeks ago, four weeks ago, uh, to Kansas City. to talk to some great breweries there. Um, super, super excited about this, uh, this upcoming time. It's October eight through 10. and I know there's still tickets available, at least of right now.
I don't know where we'll be at by the time of this air, but, um, I would highly encourage folks if you can get in around Kansas City. [00:54:00] Um, it is, um, it's unlike anything man. It's, it is one of the great, uh, it, it, it, I, I don't know that anybody comes with an open heart and leaves without at least one mystical kind of experience.
Like, I just don't think you can walk away from it, not feeling like you've been changed. Uh, that was my experience anyway.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: So there's, there's one afternoon where, I can't remember what they called it, but, but do you remember where he went out under the, outside and everybody was hanging out and they kind of,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yeah. the,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: what was the, term they called it?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: the, um, it's not October Fest, the, um, oh,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah. you're on the right track.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: it was their version of October zest. October Fest or something.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: S
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: zest. That was it. October zest.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: us. Yeah. Yeah. And so they had everybody move outside for the afternoon and they had all the beers out there, food out there, you know, people could smoke and, and just whole thing. Well, the church is like this, you know, historic, traditional church in the middle [00:55:00] of this neighborhood.
And so right across the street, all these houses. And I remember watching people drive by and I'm thinking, they have gotta be thinking. There goes the neighborhood, like what has happened to this church? Everybody's out there smoking and drinking and like, what is going on? But That's what I love about it, is I think it's a, it's like a shot in the arm of imagination of like, let's, let's just imagine like, let's open the doors of like, God, we're not gonna say what you can and can't do, how you can and can't show up.
Like, we're just gonna be open. And it is that, you know, the freedom and the accessibility of God we were talking about earlier, just like, we're gonna show up, we're gonna see what happens. And I, I love debt and I'm, I'm excited to go again.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So it reminds me of my first, uh, that I went.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Well this, this is a hard pivot, but let's go. I'm here for it.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: it's not at all. You'll totally understand. I was at my first Pride drag event, this is several, couple years ago, um, in, in Grand [00:56:00] Haven, Michigan of all places, which is not a place you would normally associate with a great drag event, but they had a really cool drag and, and, you know, concert the whole bit.
And I was thinking, sitting on there, thinking about why is drag so important? And I said, I think it's important because this is a group of people going to the edges of their imagination of what gender means, of what sexuality means, of what performance means, of what art means, all the way to the edges.
So you have permission to take two steps.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I think that's what beer camp is, right? Beer camp is intentionally absurd. We had a soft serve ice cream machine that we were making beer floats of with New Holland Dragons, milk and founders, KBS two of the best stouts in the world, I'm making ice cream floats out of them for two hours while people smoke cigars we're going to the edges.
Just so you, when you go home, you feel like, you know what? If that's okay. Me starting a scotch [00:57:00] club in my church, me doing this with these people, me trying to just outing myself as a lover of whatever is, it's possible, it's permissible, but it's real heroes and, and pioneers being on the edge of those things that I think makes that stuff possible.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: That's beautiful. I like that,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: If you've never gone to a drag event, I highly, highly recommend it. It will also change your life.
It will make you
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: might be a hot take for. For some of our listeners today.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: It won't make you uncomfortable in ways that, well, if you're paying attention and you're asking questions, um, you'll wonder why you're so uncomfortable. Because it's
super easy to be liberal and progressive in your nice, comfy white, evangelical, you know, you know, middle class areas.
But when you actually end up on margins with folks that are, are already marginalized they're doing their best to celebrate it, and you're trying to be celebrating it in solidarity with them, that's when you learn where you're at and what you wanna still work [00:58:00] on.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
Very cool. Okay. Before we transition to our questions that we ask each person, you wrote a book of poetry I think back in 2021. I would love if we could get you to read some of it for us. I think it'd be cool. Speaking of imaginations, let's, let's hear a little bit of your imagination.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yeah, ordinary poems. An extraordinary moment in time. So since this is Cabernet Prey. just a more technical poem, but I'm gonna read a poem that I wrote that is a traditional oat, so it's a, it's actually a structured kind of poem and this one is to red wine,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Here, here.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: 750 milliliter millimeters, purple liquid, trapped in bottles colored water, alcohol, and ethos.
Closer still, we see what What's more uncovered, floating, microscopic parts of places The dirt, the soil worked by [00:59:00] lovers and flickering between those spaces. 1,095 hours of sun. And still further in, we find more traces of sweat from the lovers who have begun to press their skin to skins and stems to juice, to pump and pour or barrel and wear tons and hand to time.
As alchemies let loose, life is given to these vines and roots. New life begins again in stranger's hands. Fresh wind is breathed at cork's release. It draws us in once more to nature's drown. It's poured and swirled and passed to make the peace between dissonance and best intentions and all the movement adds to the caprice.
With words voiced over crystal suspension, the sound wave to shake our red elixir. Something's born again in those vibrations. New life comes this time with just a whisper in a moment. Our glass is mixed with [01:00:00] tears that season. Our ver first sips between new lovers. The gift keeps on, its giving easing fears of lovers over the tables over years.
To our surprise, this new life comes again. Pouring or our lips and tongues, taste buds. evolve. The glass could not contain even more. New life. Courses through our blood us, gives us courage to lean in more and risk enough to rise above fears flood pro. Prove love's. Sacrifice was worth the poor dirt and light, and tears and sweat, and time what crazy lovers do this for.
13.5% could be the line drawn through our generation's creeds and race, is so much more than wine. This thread connects lovers through time and space. So maybe can pour with it a little grace. So
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: [01:01:00] That is freaking awesome. Yes,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: so that's to red wine.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: that was great.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Uh,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: If I wasn't already a fan of red wine, I would be, you won me over. That's, that's great. I love that. What made you want to write poetry or just something you'd normally do?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: A pandemic. I'll do that to an extrovert. Um, I actually started, I've written my whole life. I started writing seriously in 2019 before the pandemic. And then, uh, when it hit, it just slowed me down, man. And I just didn't have a choice. And I got into birding lot of people did. Right. I got into the baking like a lot of people did, and I got into writing and I started writing it.
Six 30 in the morning, five, six o'clock in the morning every morning for two hours, whatever came, came that day. And for a while it was like a poem, a day, just, it was just a really, really special moment. [01:02:00] Uh, a spirit, you know, moments in time that I still like. I mean, I use that as one of my examples of like, art is one of those things that when you're in it, you can use that then to remember those times when you weren't afraid.
Right? Uh, when you're in those spaces where in the flow states or when you are just totally in the moment, my kids are all artists. My younger two are at art school or art schools, graduate schools and art, art, undergraduate schools and art schools. they talk about these moments where they become, when they get in the peace, And like hours will pass. And they realize that they've just been totally, totally removed from all of the fear that they had even when they started the project. Um. And so, yeah, it's just me trying to practice what I preach as an amateur, right? Like, um, I don't do this for a living. I don't do any of this for a living.
Oh, I drink for a living, I guess. But than that, you know, um, I don't, I don't do anything else like this. So I try [01:03:00] to, I try to perform and let people know that it's okay to perform it and to do it as an amateur, Um, so I'm gonna close you with one more, one more poem. Okay. And, um, this is called Amateurs.
And this is one of the spoken word pieces that I'll do, like on mics and stuff when I get a chance with wine. Let's see how this goes. not there yet, but we're getting there.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: All right. Here we go.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: This world needs more amateurs. Painters, musicians, poets, dancers, wine drinkers, cake bakers, less freelancers, more for the for the love of the game players less.
Show me the money haters we need. Songwriters aren't on YouTube. Home cooks who actually serve people. Food who fly fish and kayak, and gamers who play top the balls flat. duffers and hacks and 11 minute, minute milers, ungifted lovers who are just ranking filers. We need more. Don't give a fuck what you think of me.
Less [01:04:00] counting the likes on our Twitter feed, lovers, amateurs, with no eye to gain except for the joy that comes when they play unafraid, that the whole world or no one might see things in this life they'd all do for free.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: That's nice. Well done, sir. Those are good.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So I'm trying to do this as a, you know, and stay in the Bible world, stay, you know, like, don't, I'm not trying to, you know, like I, I mean, I, I admire you guys who can do this. I, I just do a day job and then I try to stay on the margins and stay close enough to people that are doing really crazy, creative things.
And that's amazing. And, I think there's a place for people like me that aren't doing it professionally, that aren't getting paid to do it. they aren't getting paid to think or to write or to perform. Right. And we just keep going about our days, but we still engage. And it's really, it's not just for you all to do it
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: watch you do it.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: absolutely.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So that's what I'm trying to do out here
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Cheers to you, Ben. I love it. We need, [01:05:00] we need more of it, so I hope your story inspires others. Alright, let's, let's talk about a few questions that I like to ask each of our guests and we get to compare your answers. I'm excited for your fir Well, I'm excited for all these, but you, you, I don't normally get to talk to wine experts who give this answer so.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yes.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: a story. What is your favorite experience? Can you even think of like one, this would be hard for you, I would imagine, but like if I said, Ben, like the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life, how would you even quantify that? What would come to your mind? Is there a story maybe that kind of emerges toward the top and why that story of all the other experiences you've had, why does that one stand out to you?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So the second most important pairing in the world is what is on the table? The most important pairing in the world is who's across it? And so, uh, I had an opportunity to, my brother was living in Italy for a while and brought me back a very, [01:06:00] very nice bottle of Barolo, which is my favorite grape in the world.
Nelo And Barolo is my favorite place for that favorite grape in the world. And he happened to bring one back from 1999, which was the year I got married. And I had already been sitting on a bottle of Loll Champagne from 99, waiting for my 20th wedding anniversary. So in 2019 came around. I went to a friend's house or a friend who was at a great Italian restaurant.
I said, Chris, here's two bottles. You do whatever you want. I'll pay whatever you want, make it special. And I gave him this bottle of Barolo and this bottle of champagne, and we sat in this quiet half of the restaurant. You know, blocked off for us. And my wife and I just sat and drank one of the most amazing bottles, two of the most amazing bottles of wine with a custom made meal that was made just for those two bottles and just for us two people.
Um, and I don't know how you top that.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Seriously. Geez.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So I have a, it's still one of [01:07:00] my, uh, one of my pictures is me with my chin on the, on the top of that bottle, just basking and the beauty of my wife in that moment, you know? So, um, yeah, that, that's for sure the most important bottles that I've drank in my life. I have one other really cool one because I don't drink, you know, you don't get a lot of chances for, you know, I say there's only four kinds of wine in the world here.
There's weekday wine, there's weekend wine, there's special occasion wine, and there's once in a lifetime wine, falls into one of those four categories. Sometimes you don't know when you're gonna have your once in a lifetime wines.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I was doing a dinner where I was actually cooking a five course meal for a, um, a set of really important, I was working for another guy and we were doing, there's a very famous winery in Spain called Vegas, Cecilia, Roberto Dero.
Okay. It's probably the most famous winery in Spain, and their most famous bottle is called Unko. Okay. And when I was doing this back in probably 2017, [01:08:00] I was the, their unco went for. bucks a bottle. And I think right now it's between 650 and 700. And I am a, I used to cook for a living, but I haven't had in years.
And I was tasked with cooking an actual Spanish meal for these actual customers with these incredible wines. And I had the courage to do, uh, coach, which is like a peasant stew. It's like a peasant pork stew. And I decided to do it with this $450 bottle and I pulled it off, it went really well. And afterwards we're cleaning up and my boss looks over at me and there's a half a bottle and it goes sitting there and he says, go home and drink this with your wife.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Wow,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Didn't expect. I, you know, when you do these events, you're just so exhausted afterwards. I had nothing left to give. I had really, I'd been there all day and I went home just sweat drenched. And Julie and I didn't even have nice wine glasses at the time. I poured 'em in, know, like dollar Libby cups, you know, Libby Glass Cups.
And [01:09:00] she and I drank a $450 tempera, uh, in absolute silence. Unable to speak, know, just that the gift we'd been given, you know, just, it
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: that's so cool.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: moment. those are the two that come to mind all the time.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Wow. Yeah, I mean those stories, those don't disappoint, Ben. Well done. Alright. Which member of church history would you trust to pick a bottle of wine for you? And who would you not trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you and why?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Okay. I'm gonna do the second one first
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Okay.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: and, ' cause I've already talked about the first one once, but I'm gonna expand it 'cause I go and take the license. the person does not get to pick my line is John Leslie.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Even though he is the, know, namesake of the church that I grew up in, and I love a lot of the stuff that they did.
He is also the reason we have a temperance movement in the United States. one of the
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: like a solid reason to put 'em on the list. Yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: more difficult than anything else is I'm not, I'm not letting him, uh, anywhere near my wine [01:10:00] selection. Uh, the group is actually, there's actually four, and they're all modern. Okay. I've talked about Robert Var Cone already.
I think that he would be the perfect person
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Ooh, that's good.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: of wine, right? Like,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: that's a good pick.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: ask him to pick New York, Riesling, he, he's gonna, he's gonna nail it. He's gonna nail it. Uh, the second person there, and this is the one that I want to talk, tell me about the wine is Frederick Beaker.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I think his poetic, uh, observations on everyday life are some of the things that got me through some of the hardest parts of my life. Um, so I want him there to talk about it with me. I want Eugene Peterson there, um, because he taught me how to cherish the everyday, right. Um, and how to find, I think the reason I am able to find big things and little things is because of Eugene Peterson in my life.
And then, uh, the last one is Richard Rohr. [01:11:00] And it's just because I want him there to ask questions and to be amazed. there's nothing better than watching Richard Rohr be fascinated.
'cause he's the most sincere. He's just so sincere that he would just be in awe of whatever everybody was, was saying and what the wine was doing.
And he'd have, I'm sure he'd have the best questions and you know, like he'd have some obscure tie that would make it, you know, like, like of the, that if I could just sit in the corner while that encounter was going on, uh, I don't think, I think that'd be pretty amazing.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm. Great answer. I like that. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong? About,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: The Pinotage isn't any good.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: No.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: A little call back there.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: That's, um, I, I mean, theologically almost everything, right? Like, um, but would say the really, really important things are, um. Not believing in internal [01:12:00] damnation is a big one that I think scared me when I was a kid and that I go pretty quickly. You know, the most pivotal one, Jeremy.
I actually, I think this is a good one. I think this is, this is actually something that's helpful. My relationship with the text with the Bible changed probably that was, and that is PZ kinds of influence here. But, um, when I stopped thinking that the Bible was God talking to me, a lot of my problems with the Bible stopped being problems anymore.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Right. The moment that I saw the text, know, when somebody asked me, who told you what your relationship to the text was supposed to be? 'cause the Bible can't say that 'cause that's self-referential.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: that has to come out of tradition, right? So someone's passed that on, which means there's a potential for human error there.
Right. And when I. this idea of an ineffable, you know, authoritarian, you know, perfectly, document that was [01:13:00] supposed to speak into my life completely. And when I moved to a position of is a group of people talking to another group of people about their experience, the divine, like, it just changed my relationship with the text.
Like I could not, I didn't have to be defensive anymore. I didn't have to worry about inconsistencies anymore. I didn't have to explain it. I could accept it or I could let it go, but regardless it would be a, you know, like I could learn from it. I actually learned more about the Bible as wisdom literature after I abandoned the idea that it was authoritative.
Um, so that was probably the biggest, that's probably the biggest thing. I've been tons of other things. Luckily I came out as affirming. I was affirming way before any of my kids came out. I have three queer kids. I was very, very fortunate to have done that work beforehand. So I have beautiful experiences of my kids coming out to me, uh, you know, at 16, 15, 14.
And, um, you know, I, I was, [01:14:00] I was very, I mean, it's just, as a father, I think that probably was the thing that helped me the most, was going through that work first. Um, but that's not how we started, right? Like, we didn't start in that space. So those are some things
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: That was great. Yeah, The Bible one is, is a domino that'll, that'll knock a whole bunch of other ones over too.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: a hermeneutic domino.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: What do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in the US today?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I know that everybody says Christian nationalism, right?
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: It is the most, that's the most popular answer. not wrong, just it is the most popular answer.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: wrong, but it's not the only thing
I, I think.
I think if we can't read ourselves as Rome or as Babylon in the story, um, we don't really have a chance. Like, as long as we still think we're the [01:15:00] persecuted, you know, as long as we still think we're Israel, as long as we still think we're like, I just don't think, I think if Americans are reading scripture at and don't see themselves as empire, um, I don't, you're, you know, you're, you're always gonna read it wrong again.
I just don't know what the other answer is. Um, I think that, I think that's easily the thing that I wish, wish I could get folks to that American exceptionalism and that idea that somehow we could, we have to always be the good guys. Uh, when clearly I just don't, I don't know of anybody on the outside thinks that.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah. Okay. What's something blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: I'm working on my idea of, um, and oh gosh, oh, I hate that. I dunno her name off the top of my head. Who wrote, um, [01:16:00] queering, queering Theology maybe, or Queering? Uh, I don't, oh man. It was, I wrote it, I read it several years ago and it just kind of stuck with me for a long time. was fine and, and I liked where it went, but I was thinking of it a whole different way.
I'm working on, uh, querying my methodology.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Hmm.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So, you know, one of the deep desires of my life is that I learned to see the world through my kids' eyes, right? And just recently I've started to think about what that looks like in a different theology, and particularly clearing boundaries. Um, I, I'm, I'm toying around this, this concept of this, this name of, uh, trans theism, right?
Where I'm neither an atheist nor a theist, right? I think that I go one step past pantheism and that I don't know that I think God has agency, but I do think there's a divine spirit we can choose to participate in. [01:17:00] But, um, and, somebody kind of said, that sounds like, like a trans, I didn't know what that meant.
And, more I got into that phrase, the more I liked that idea of. Disarming, the bi, the binary that we've created between theism and atheism as a way a, a as, as a questioning the power structure that puts people in camps when they're talking about something. None of us have any other idea what the hell we're talking about, right?
And so right now I'm really trying to figure out what does it look like to talk to my queer brothers and sisters that, um, I can learn from as a straight cisgender man, uh, along with talking to people like my kids their experience of the divine that keeps me from putting things in tight boundaries and that that might be a queer methodology I can really learn from, from a long time.
But I'm just getting started on that journey. Like I, it's just something that's happening just recently. that's probably something that's blowing my mind right now.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah. That's fascinating. [01:18:00] There you go. What's something you're excited about right now?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: besides beer camp. Um.
I think there's real conversations in the church right now about, what it means to be a, in a, at the end of an Empire Age. I think there's some people that are really being honest about that. Um, and I think that's the first step. And so I think that, you know, when we start to think about what does it look like for United States not to be a superpower, what does it look like Christianity to not be the most important expression of Christianity in the world, nevermind spirituality.
I think it's gonna create a lot of good sifting. Um, and I think that that's, it's, it's a, it's a hard thing to ask for because it's all pain. Um, it's like me getting back into the gym, man. I think it just, I don't think there's another way. And so I have to kind of be excited about it [01:19:00] mostly for my kids and maybe if I have them grandkids that maybe there's a church that's prophetic again, that's on the, that's on the come up.
um, things get dark enough and if we get to a different stage where the church has to mean something different,
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Yeah.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: so that'd probably be it.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Nice. Alright, Ben, is there anything I have not asked you that we cannot close this episode without you addressing? I don't want you to feel like anything was left on the table.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Gosh, man, we've covered a lot of ground today.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: We have covered a lot.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: say, uh, you didn't ask me what you wanted me to bring with me to Kansas City for you to try that you maybe don't have access to all the time in the world of alcohol.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Wow. That's a great question. Okay, so here's my confession to you.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: I, I feel like you, you seem like a safe person. I'm way more of a wine guy than I am a beer guy.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: uh, I lived in Oregon and was, you know, [01:20:00] perpetually judged. 'cause I, I couldn't get around an IPA and everybody told me what a horrible human I am, and I just never could get on board with it.
So I would say, here's My confession to you and I, I lay my cars on the table vulnerably. I'm a wheat beer guy, which I know is not the manliest macho beer there is.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: we don't yuck anybody else's. Yum.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: That's what I'm saying. I think, I think you're safe. So I am, I'm the wheat beer guy. A good wheat beer to me is like refreshing. And, and I, I love all of that.
So I remember, I think, I think at beer camp I was like, Hey, the first night, like, are there any wheat beers? And they was like, no, not tonight. I was like, okay, what's the closest to a weaver you got? You know, it was like, I'll have that one. And so I like tried all sorts of stuff and a lot of it was really good.
But that's my thing is like I'm not, I think, you know, the IPA crowd like was geeking out hard on all the stuff you guys are doing. That's like a level beyond me. I'm like the, Hey, is there anything that's got [01:21:00] a citrus note to it? You know, like, that's where I'm at.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: So, are you familiar with Oberon?
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Uh, is that a whiskey?
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: No, it's a beer.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Oh no. Then I've not had it
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: but Oh my God. Okay, so Oberon. Okay. I'm gonna have to, now this will actually require discipline on my part because it'll be gone here in Michigan by the time that I come to camp. So I'm gonna hold some aside for you.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Oh wow.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: This is, this is one of the. Three or four most important beers in the state of Michigan to come outta the state of Michigan.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Wow,
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: by a producer called Bell's Down in Kalamazoo. And, uh, it is our, we haven't, like, last Monday was Oberon Day. All right?
So it is only released in the summer, comes out in the spring, goes through the summer, closes off in the fall, and that's it.
And then it's gone until the next year. it's, it's a ritualistic kind of, it's more important here than St. Patrick's Day. Like it really
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: wow.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: of
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Very [01:22:00] cool.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: and so I'm going to bring you a six pack of LeBron, um, that you can either share or not share. but you'll at least be able to try one of the great American wheat beers in the world.
and then maybe, we'll, we'll, we'll pay attention to the wheat category when we're, when we're putting our list together. I know I tried some really good ones in the last couple, last time we were in Kansas City, so.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Now I'm stoked. Now I'm officially, I was already excited. Now I'm really excited 'cause now Ben's gonna show me something that's gonna blow my mind. That's awesome.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: have fun.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Well, hey Ben, I, I had asked you if you're like, Hey, got any websites or something you want me to promote? And you said, Nope. So if someone is like digging you.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: if you're in Grand Rapids, you can, you know, we'll get, I'll get you wine. We'll come together, have wine or beer, beer together. Like it's not, you know, uh, I'm the beverage director at this amazing beer shop Cost anos, that market that is, [01:23:00] um, one of the best independent beer retailers in the United States.
It's been around since the early nineties. The reason that founders exists is the reason that that New Holland Brewing exists. Like they all started as five gallon buckets in the back of their store. so come find us as Siciliano, and I'll make sure that you, that you don't drink alone the entire, entire time you're in Grand Rapids.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: There you go. And a beer camp. if they, go to beer camp.
they can meet you and see your, your cur curated selection in, in person.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yeah. And we find we will find a beer for you or I'll have something else that you'll enjoy. And that includes gluten-free stuff, that includes non-alcoholic stuff. rule number one, there's always more room at the table. Whatever you're there to drink, we'll make sure that you have it for you. And if we don't, I'll go find it.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: I will say that was what was cool is, you know, because I wasn't like in the mainstream beer things, I would ask him like, Hey, what, you know, what do you recommend? And it was probably you and a number of them, um, would like give me cans of [01:24:00] something, you know, like, oh, I got this, can like, check this out. And like, I don't remember what it was, but there was a lot of really good stuff.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: We try so yeah, it,
feels, is not to make people, wanna make people uncomfortable. We don't want people to feel comfortable in a nerdy them. And if you're not nerd in that area, just know that you're a nerd in something else and you can just appreciate their nerdy them in that area.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: I love it. That's great. Well, Ben, this has been a delight. I love your perspective. I love the way you continue to follow Jesus. In, in new ways and with your imagination and your poetry and around a table and with the spirits and, and the way you talk about your kids is beautiful. I mean, all of it. I just think you're such a great example of how we can live out our faith with imagination and, uh, you're doing a great job.
So thanks for the example you're setting for the rest of us, and thanks for joining me on the pod today.
squadcaster-ffh5_1_03-30-2026_160348: Yeah, thanks for, thanks for the work you're doing on this podcast and the other one and just the example, you guys, I was so encouraged to learn about you and to see you [01:25:00] faithfully trying to continue to figure out what does it look like with pathology Jesus in this space. And you have a lot of courage and I'm really, really impressed by you and that you happen to be doing it with a wine in your hand is even better.
jeremy_1_03-30-2026_130335: Well, thank you that that does mean a lot. Well, this has been a delight. I hope you, dear listener, have enjoyed this episode as well and are inspired to go and try some new things. And let that feral spirit flow. We'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray.
