The Wild Magic (with Lauren Peiser) | Ep. 75
===
[00:00:00] Well, I have got great news for you audiobook lovers. That's right. If you are an audiophile and you would rather listen to a book than read it with your eyeballs, then you wanna check out "The Edge of the Inside" audio version, now available. It was not available yet, but it is now, and it's really good. I have enjoyed it, and I got a chance to listen to it all and proof it all, and, I picked the voice of the guy who read it, and I was able to get lost in it in the best of ways, where I was just engrossed in it and, really enjoyed it.
And so I wanna encourage you, if you have yet to have read my latest book, "The Edge of the Inside," this is a great chance to dive in. You can get the audiobook on Audible or you can get it on Amazon or [00:01:00] just go to edgeoftheinside.com and you can find all the versions, even get a signed copy if you're into that, and I'll write you a typewriter note with it with one of my vintage typewriters.
So yeah, exciting stuff. I'm excited to have multiple versions. You can get it on e-book, on print, and now on audio, and I think this will make it accessible to a whole lot more people who maybe would prefer to do it that way. And so if that's you, check it out, edgeoftheinside.com
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith. Today, we have a delightful conversation with Lauren Peiser. In her current role as the director of partnerships at the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, Lauren focuses on cultivating mutually beneficial collaborations with a variety of [00:02:00] organizations.
She's passionate about linking together partnerships where new understandings and discoveries emerge from places that could not be found alone. You'll see that theme throughout the episode. Before her work at the Seattle School, she spent multiple years working in the food and wine industry. This includes creating partnerships with farmers, chefs, and students at a culinary school in Arkansas, as well as harvesting grapes and making wine in Sonoma and New Zealand.
She holds multiple certificates in wine education, including the WSET 2 and the Introductory Sommelier. The intersection of community resilience, spirituality, and food is something that she is always researching and discovering more about. She writes on Substack by asking questions about food, wine, gender, religion, and hospitality.
Lauren lives in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in an intentional community with her two young sons and her husband, and she [00:03:00] is going to invite you to see the world more holistically through a more natural beauty and an experience of all that is out there.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was Sports Center, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" You gotta drink a lot.
The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment. Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do.
I'm kinda geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. [00:04:00] You told me to drink on this show. I will also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine, and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun.
You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it. We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it.
I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing. It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers.
I love this question. Really got my mind rolling. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know. I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will [00:05:00] never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology.
So I... Ooh, I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is... Here we are. Queer we are. Beer we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guests drink wine.
It makes sense now. Yeah. I get it. A little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. So throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice, isn't it? Cabernet and pray, yeah
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Well, our guest today lives in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and she likes it, which means she is good at finding beauty in all things. Welcome to the podcast, Lauren
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Thank you. Thank you for [00:06:00] having me on this beautiful, sunny day in Albuquerque
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Did I offend you with my Albuquerque joke? Are we okay?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: We're okay. We're okay. We, we have, like, similar roots. We can joke about it,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Yeah. We, we were joking about different states and, and our love or disdain for different states before we recorded, which we won't share. We'll leave that private knowledge for us of which states we enjoy and don't enjoy and why. But I, I will go on the record and say Albuquerque is not my favorite place.
So when I met Lauren... I actually met Lauren in person last week, I think it was, and, uh, it was delightful, and I was very surprised that you are from Albuquerque and you love it. And it's, you know, Texas and Seattle and all these different places, but you found a home in Albuquerque. So shout out to all of our Albuquerque peeps today
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yes, yes, the one Albuquerque listener Which might be me, [00:07:00] but, uh,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Well, after, after this episode, we are gonna have a following in Albuquerque.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: think so.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Big traction happening in Albuquerque. Okay, let's talk about what we're drinking, 'cause we've got someone who knows wine on today's episode. I am drinking a 2018 Waypoint Cabernet Sauvignon from Napa. This is the Lowery Vineyard.
And I chose this for you, Lauren. You might be thinking, "I don't see why that is connected to me." I understand that. But let me tell you why I chose this for you, and this is going to tease out where we're going in this episode, so everyone's gonna be very curious what's, what's gonna follow. The winemaker for this wine, his name is Tim Milos.
He holds a PhD in molecular plant pathology I had to look this up because I did not know what the hell that meant.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: [00:08:00] It sounds cool.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Well, let me read to you, Lauren, what it is. "Molecular plant pathology is the study of how pathogens, including fungi, bacteria, viruses, and nematodes infect and colonize plants examined at the molecular and cellular level."
So, Lauren writes about some cool things in contamination and sterilization, and how things are affected by other things, and we're gonna get into that today. And when I read that, as I was learning about what molecular plant pathology was, I thought, "Lauren can, can resonate with this." So this is, this is in honor of you.
I gave myself way too heavy of a pour, I was telling Lauren, so we'll see where this episode goes. But this is delightful. I'm getting, uh, like chocolate-covered cherries mixed [00:09:00] with, like, dusty soil, and so I love it when you get a great fruit note and a great earthy note, and they come together and they're balanced.
This is lighter than I was expecting. The tannins aren't as big. Uh, it says it's full body, but I'm not, I'm not getting all of that. So, uh, to me, this is, like, a nice afternoon drinker, which is good because I have a lot of drinking to do. So that's what's in my glass. Lauren, what do you got today?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Okay. Um, I have a 2022, uh, it's
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: like that label
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I know, isn't it cool? Um, Fizzy B, but it's a sparkling Barbera. Um, it is from Mosier, uh, Oregon, which is the Columbia Gorge. Yes. Yes. So it's east of Willamette, but still west of the Columbia Valley. So it's a really interesting region. Uh, when we [00:10:00] used to live in Seattle, my family went down to Hood River and stayed there, um, and stayed at, uh, we went to Idiot's Grace.
So this is, uh, Idiot's Grace is the producer. Um, they do all biodynamic wines. Um, super cool. We're a part of their convivium. They won't call it a wine club.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: That's very elaborate
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yes. Yes. So they have, um, their, they have a biodynamic, uh, farm as well that's a part of it. So, um, yeah, we love this place, and I love it because it's, like, in between, uh, so you're getting a little bit more sun than in that area, but it's not, like, as dry and hot as, uh, the Columbia Valley is.
So this is the Fizzy B. I have not tasted it yet. So it's, um, I'm smelling plum and [00:11:00] rose. Um, some herbal notes too. Um, Barbera, like, as you know, it's, like, medium bodied, acidity, usually less tannins And it has a great finish. It, I mean, and it's, it's effervescent too, so it's great for this kind of day, like a spring wine with food,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: For a sunny day in Albuquerque
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: for a sunny day in Albuquerque. This is like a Albuquerque wine.
It's got
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: no. There are no Albuquerque wines, especially not ones that come from Oregon, okay? You're not allowed to claim that. I'm just gonna put that on the record
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, I love Idiot's Grace. I think they're so
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: That is quite the name
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: yes. I know. I should look up why it's named that. I don't remember. Um, but it's a really magical place in Oregon. [00:12:00] Um, and I do love that area a lot
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Oregon is filled with magical places.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: I said I wasn't gonna share about states we like and don't like, but I'm sharing a lot about what I like and don't like. All right, let's move on. We are gonna begin with a question I love asking each of our guests, and this gives our listeners a chance to figure out who is Lauren, who are we talking to today?
So I love to ask the last 10 years of your journey, and in particular show people how we're all a work in progress, we're all going somewhere, we're not static. So how has your faith changed in the last 10 years?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I love that question. It's actually perfect because, um, I was just thinking about, uh, w- where I was at and what I was doing 10 years ago. Um, and I would have gotten back, from my time working in Sonoma at that [00:13:00] point. Um, I think I, I had done the first level of sommelier training at that time, uh, working on my WSET level two. Um, and I guess, prob- what, two years before that is when I got very, very into wine. Um, I would say it's funny 'cause wine, now looking back, I would say is like the biggest piece of my faith journey in so many ways. Um, which is like why I was like, "I have to get on this podcast and talk to you," 'cause I... there's like so much intersection here. Um, but, um, I, uh, I'm sorry, I can't do 10 years. I've gotta go a little further back.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Okay, we'll let you cheat a little bit
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I wanna cheat. Um, but I grew up in like suburbia, predominantly white. Um, [00:14:00] my family bounced around at like different churches, so I didn't feel necessarily in a particular denomination with my faith. Um, but looking back, like I would say like my family's religion and like culture was whiteness and capitalism. So like that feels the most resonant to me in a lot of ways. Um, and so this is about 10 years ago. Um, I guess it's like, I think in 2014, I studied abroad, um, in Italy, and I did, uh, an immersive food and wine experience for
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: You went right to the Mecca
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yes, I did. And I mean, at that point before, like I was drinking, like... I'm like trying to think of what I was drinking at the time, but you know, Two Buck Chuck-ish wine, and
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: you're in the Charles Shaw region?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yes, I was in the Charleston region. And, and then I went to Italy, and there were people who [00:15:00] were, like knew everything, you know, knew the soil, knew the grapes, and were so in love with wine making, the land.
And that experience for me was so healing actually see people love and in relationship with something. Um, and at that point in my life, I-- for me was there, but it wasn't really intoxicating. I'd say it was boring. Like, uh, in college, I kind of did student ministry, but then I was like, "This is not for me.
It's too evangelical. I don't get it." Um, but like the stories of Jesus have always been interesting to me, and faith like c- I grew up in a place where Christianity was just a part of the culture. Um, but at that point, like I remember being there in Italy and like experiencing that and being like, "This is it."
Like- [00:16:00] This is the experience of Christ right here, experiencing food and wine and pleasure. And, like, a lot of my story too is, like, being very disconnected from my body, not enjoying things, like, having to be perfect, and success being the metric of, like, how good you are in your spirituality. Um, which of course is, like, very tied to capitalism. Um, and so there, just being in a different culture was such a break away from that life that I was experiencing before that I was like, "This, this is it." And so from that experience, I really immersed myself in learning about wine, learning about the land, learning about our relationship to the earth in a lot of ways, and that felt like the most spiritual thing I could possibly do. Um, I remember in college, so this [00:17:00] would've been, um, a little over 10 years ago. But, uh, as I was graduating, one of my friends was, um, trying to get me to join their student ministry at, like, after college. And I was like, "No," like, "I feel, like, so called to work in wine-making." Like, I feel like... And they're like, it's like s- just so adverse to, like, maybe some people's
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: The church ain't got nothing on wine
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I know. I mean, that's how I felt, like, I was just like, "I, I don't- I didn't quite get ministry. Um, but I did feel captivated by this experience. Um, and then working in wine in, um, California, I think opened up so much to me of like, oh, our culture is so rooted in capitalism and exploitation, and the same way that in Christianity we often, um, blanket statement things, but we don't [00:18:00] actually think about the embodied experiences, and that was, like, how wine was for me at the time.
Like, all wine is the same. It's all this magical experience, and then it's like no,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: No. No,
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: there's so much exploitation, control, like, things involved in it. But it was, it was a reflective time for me. Um, and then I ended up working at The Seattle School. I still do. It's a seminary. And that was not my dream at the time.
Um, so in some ways, like when we talk about, like, shattered dreams, not following your calling or things not working out the way that you were hoping, working at a seminary kind of felt that way of like, seminary is so boring. I don't know. Like, why would anyone study theology? I don't... I just don't get it.
And then I started sitting in on classes and learning about theology and I was like, "Oh, there's something called, like, eco feminist theology? Like, that's really cool. That's really [00:19:00] interesting." And, like, I actually have f- fallen in love with theology in the past 10 years working at The Seattle School and being a part of it.
Um, and in a lot of ways that is, like, the intersection of my past work has become more alive learning more about, um, who God is and community. So I would say right now, um, Dr. Tamice Spencer Helms and, uh, Dr. Gary Green, he, he spoke at the conference we had, um, they use the term post-Christian, like, and I think that resonates with me.
Like, that's where I feel like I'm at, where pieces of my faith feel so important to who I am. I feel very connected to the stories that were passed down to me being a Christian, but the idea of Christian as a [00:20:00] label or as an identity, um, it, it feels boundary to me. And so that, that's kind of where I'm at at this moment.
I'm sure it will evolve in
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Nice
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: but, yeah, that, that's where I'm at now.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Quite the moving journey.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yeah.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: And I'm ama- I mean, I-- So of all, like, when I... 'Cause I did WSET too, and it made me... It was, it's like any good education, where it makes you humble because you realize there's way more that you don't know that you didn't even know you didn't know, right? And so I, I took the WSET and I'm like, "This thing is so freaking complicated."
And Italian wines in particular to me, it's like, it doesn't get more complic- Like, you could spend the rest of your life, like, all I'm gonna do is devote myself to Italian wines, and you still, you would, you'd be like, you're an expert on, like, that one region. You know , like, there's so much. It's, it's so complicated.
And so I love that [00:21:00] you're, like, in Italy, you're like, "Oh, this is cool." And it's, yeah, it's, I mean, France is, I, I would say, the other one. But, like, Italian ones are even more complicated, I think. Um, so I love that you've journeyed there, and in and around Christianity, and you still work at a seminary, and they're evidently okay with you being post-Christian, I guess.
Or they don't know, so hopefully they don't listen if that's a bad thing. Uh, we'll, we'll just keep moving on, I guess. I'm curious, in your different experiences in the wine and the food industry, what role or, like, what activity did you do specifically, that maybe listeners haven't had that experience, that made you fall in love with wine the most?
Where you're like, "When I was doing that, I was just, like, in awe of, of wine." Is there, like, something in that journey for you?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yeah, that's a good question. [00:22:00] I, I think what I would say, um When I was in Italy, I think getting actually to be outside and be a part of, um, watching the vineyard managers, like, know, like exactly what you're talking about, like the complexity of like this particular slope has this percentage of soil compared to this other slope, and this is the dynamics of like why this is the way this is and why this is the way that this over here is. Um, that was the part that I was like, "This is so complex," and you could learn this for forever, and it really takes being in relationship with something rather than just like textbook. Um, which of course there's part of that too. But think that's wh- what drew me and made me [00:23:00] fall in love with it, and I think probably because I was in a place where, um, growing up in the United States, capitalist culture, like I lived with an Italian family when I was there and just like the slowness of like meals and actually like appreciating things.
Um, and I think also another thing is that seeing men who were like just in lo- as in love with like food and wine as I was, was like super healing for me too. That there was like this feminine part of their culture that's, uh, valued across gender expression. Um, so I think it was like the full immersion of being there, my whole body being in a different culture, being in a different place, that drew me to it.
Like, I don't know if I would've just like gone on like [00:24:00] week-long trip if I would've had the same experience. But I was like, literally feel like a different human. Like I'm allowed to let go of performance in a way that I didn't feel like I been able to in the past. Um, so that's what I would say.
I would say some of my like actual wine-making experiences made me like not love the experience in some ways.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: I love that. And, you know, as I'm listening to you, it's, it's reminding me one of the things I, I love about wine is you could spend the rest of your life trying to learn the details of what these winemakers know and all the people in the industry, and you, you wouldn't. I mean, you could literally till the day you die, you would not be able to, like, fully have a grasp on all of it.
So there's that level of complexity. And you can know nothing about that and enjoy a great glass of wine,
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yeah
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: and I love [00:25:00] that both of those are true. It's a both/and, right? Like, you could dive into it, and for a lot of people, especially a lot of people that, you know, guests that I have or, or probably a lot of our listeners, they, they enjoy wine more as they learn more about it.
So there is a correlation. But it's not like, hey, if unless you can explain the different soil that this came from, you can't really enjoy this. It's like, no, it'd be silly. Like, you can still enjoy it even if you know nothing about it. And I love that because I would say that's similar to theology, where you can experience the goodness of God, and you can know nothing about God.
You don't even have to... I don't even think you have to believe in God to experience God, right? But I would say the more you learn about God, the more you understand God, I do think that there's a correlation there where then you're able to get more out of that experience. You're able to, to have more experiences and to seek it out and to be in tune with it, right?
And so there is this, like, parallel element there, and I love talking about, like, on one hand, the complexity of theology or the complexity of [00:26:00] Italian wine and also the simplicity of... You know, I, I often say on, on the podcast, it boils down to there are wines you like and wines you don't like.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Right
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: we can, you know, talk about the color and the body and all this.
It's like, great. But at the end of the day, you either like the, what's in your glass or you don't. And when you like what's in your glass, it's a great experience. And, you know, when you have that moment with God that something clicks in you, it's a great experience, right? And, and a lot of times you try to explain it later, you know, and go through, um...
So I love that. And I love, uh, I love you can see the depth you have in your writing. And so I, uh, was going through different Substack articles you've written, and you get the, the fact that you are one of the deep thinkers. You're one of the ones that is looking into more of it. I want to share some things you've written that, that stood out to me, and we'll, we'll let you just kind of vamp on them.
Uh, one of the things you wrote stood out to me, and I'll explain why. [00:27:00] You, you ask a question. You say, "How many of us feel like we don't have time to experience another world because we're too busy writing a sermon about it?" Which I felt was, like, rude for you to write that about me and not just say it to me, okay?
So-
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I'm saying it now.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: I feel attacked. Okay. Uh, I like read that, I was like, damn. Like that's me. You know? Like I'm the guy that's like, "Let's, let's communicate this." You know? And sometimes it's like, stop communicating it. Like just be in it, you know? Uh, I love that. So af- after I get through my personal attack on that, uh, w- where does that idea come from for you?
How have you seen that in your own journey of this need to like package it or present it rather than just experience it?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yes. Yeah. Um, I would say it's, like, so tied to my story, too, um, around, um... [00:28:00] I think I say this in one of my other articles, but, like, that for so many of us, like, looks more like an unkempt lawn becoming a manicured lawn versus, like, jumping over the fence and going exploring in the wilds. And I feel like we're so, um, conditioned in our culture to prove that we know what we're talking about, to prove that we actually fit, that we belong, rather than actually experiencing those sort of things. Um, for me, what I feel like what I would say saved me in terms of resurrection in a way that I don't necessarily...
Maybe it's not the typical way of individual resurrection, but is embodied experiences, and is those times that I was actually [00:29:00] brought and called out by something else. It wasn't a new theology that I learned. Later I can look back and say like, "Oh, that... Someone studies ecotheology," which I think is amazing.
I think it's, that's, should, there should be research in that. But the experience so often and the encounter with the wild things is what saves us, not something that we are able to articulate. Um, I've often, I think as a woman, felt myself, like, I actually just wanna, like, cultivate, like, places of belonging for people and, and create those experiences, but I have felt so much pressure at times to prove I know what I'm talking about.
Like, I need to be on a stage somewhere or else, like, people won't be able to see the good work that I've done, and I don't wanna be caught up in that dynamic. Like, it... And I think we all fall into it. It's so easy to fall into it because, um, [00:30:00] even in the world of deconstruction, I think that there are still those spaces, um, where we're trying to be, be seen and heard more than we're trying to actually cultivate an embodied experience with one another. Um, and it doesn't mean sermons aren't great. It doesn't mean that speaking and, like, teaching and poetry and art and all those things, uh, bring us to life, but I think that, um- That especially in a culture of whiteness, um, where we are all trying to climb a ladder that was put by people who are in way more power and literally do not care about us. Um, like we don't need to be focusing on that ladder. We need to be focusing on cultivating belonging with one another. Um, and I, I think it's gonna be hard for us as a culture, um, but I think it's something that feels [00:31:00] important. And, it's so life-giving when you're in those spaces of actually experiencing something, like experiencing a good wine, experiencing good food versus just being able to talk about it and talk about it well
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Yeah, I think what's interesting too, it's interesting you, you shared that from, you know, a woman point of view. From a man, I would say, I think we are in a culture where it's often, like, that's just expected of you to do, right? And so if you don't participate in it, then it is... It's like, "Well, what's wrong with you?"
And like, y- you know, you, you're, you have to do this. And I had something interesting happen to me the other day, I... And as you're talking it, like, I was like, "I wonder if, like, that's what that was." So, uh, one of the, the communities I speak at, they, they do a Q&A after the, the service, and it's like my favorite thing.
It's, it's so cool. Like, you get to sit down and... And so normally, you know, it's whoever gave the message is the [00:32:00] one kind of like leading that discussion, right? And people can ask questions or give feedback or, or whatever. And, uh, there was one where I wasn't... I, I didn't give the message that day, but I happened to be there.
And, uh, I'm like, "I'm just gonna sit through this." Like, I'm not, I'm not going to lead it. Like, I didn't teach that day, so I didn't have to, you know? And I just sat and I just like absorbed it within the community. And I didn't think anything about it. And, and then someone afterwards like, "Oh," like, "I was really surprised you didn't say anything."
And I was like, "W- why?" You know? I'm like, "I don't..." Like, "I don't need to." Like, I just... I was just participating. Like, but there was this like... And they weren't saying it as a bad thing. They were just saying, like, they were surprised, like they expected I would do more. And it was like this like reinforcement of like these expectations exist of like prove yourself, you know?
It's like... And it does get in the way of the experience, and I love that you're just like, "No," it's like, "Let's, let's not miss the experience itself." Um, even though s- there will be times where you can talk about it [00:33:00] or you can share it. Um, but when that takes over, then the experience becomes way secondary, and that's when, you know, we're probably missing a ton of experiences that we could have otherwise.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yep. Yes. Yes, and I'm not saying this in a place of, like, figuring it out. Like, I feel like, um, uh, and I'm sure a lot of women who grew up in conservative, um, cultures deal with this sort of, like, binary and in between of, like, you were told not to talk at all.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Yeah
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: that you're, like, a more progressive space, talk all the time, take up lots of space, and, like, that's not...
It's not bad to take up space. Like, we sh- uh, it- you should take up space. But if the end goal is to be seen and recognized, I don't know if, like, Christ is in all of those moments, um, versus, like, a collective [00:34:00] piece. Which is, again, why I love the wine and the fermentation aspect of it because it comes back to, like, a co-made process together.
Like, wine doesn't become wine without bacteria and the soil and all the pieces that are a part of it. Um, so yeah
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Love it. Okay, you, you wrote another article about something you call white magic, and I thought this was fascinating. Uh, you, you say this: "White magic gives us the power to ignore the question, why can I keep going at this speed when the world is falling apart?" And I love that question because I suspect most listeners to this podcast are, are very aware the world is falling apart around us.
We see it. We're, we're... We tend to be the ones more in tune with it, which is why we're probably the more depressed group out there. Uh, 'cause we see it, we feel it, we're aware of it, we carry that, right? Um, but we all [00:35:00] have to keep going, and I do think there are times like, how do we keep... You know, it, it is weird, and you're, you're calling this white magic, and your explanation behind it I think is fascinating.
So tell us more about what is white magic?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I don't even know, uh, how this... I, I mean, it really is, again, from experience in wine, I think is why, um, that embodied experience is like gave the white magic idea. Um, we live in a, a society that, um, for the most people who are privileged and have white bodies, it feels... We don't always recognize it, but it feels magical in some ways.
So, um, we have a lot of ways to get ahead that we don't even see. Um, and some of the examples I use are, like, Amazon Prime. Like, that's, in some ways, a magical experience. Um,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: [00:36:00] feels magical
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: right? Like, something can show up on your doorstep
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: In hours
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: hours. And then it's like what's actually behind that though, 'cause that's not actually magic.
Um, it's an exhausted warehouse worker. It is the land, um, getting decimated because of of the algorithms that we've built to make it happen. Um, and so there's all these things that we think, um, are just a part of our lives, um, are really held up by, uh, people that are pushed to the margins. Um, and, and it's this, like, counter wild magic, which is, like, what I talk about as an embodied experience of experiencing something that's powerful and magic. And so I think right now as we're facing so many problems in our culture, [00:37:00] um- I, I mean, sometimes I still am like, "I can't believe I'm going to work. Like, why am I even spending time writing this email whenever there are people who are, uh, starving in Gaza, and there's all these other things that are happening?" Um, we should all be collectively moving towards something, but there's this power, um, from the top that's telling us to keep going, and it is really insidious how that is woven together a lot of times with Christianity, um, with, you know, God's providence and success and all of those pieces. Um, so what I would call white magic is like the things that have been, um, made scalable only because of exploitation and marginalization of others. Um, we're living in this world that's really fabricated, and [00:38:00] things should fall apart. Like, that's life. Like, things shouldn't last forever. Um, but we have this idea that, uh, they should, and the only reason they do is because of, of that. So that's ex- kind of the idea behind white magic or what white magic is.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: I, I, I think that is what's so hard. It, and it's almost, it's a, it's a byproduct too of the ability we have to know so much more, you know? And so you can know these atrocities i- in, you know, happening around you, happening in other states, happening in other countries. So you can, you can know all this, and it's like, that's, that's really heavy to know that and then to feel like I don't, I don't know how to do that.
And I remember, um, I think it was the, the day Alex Pretti was shot by, uh, by ICE, and I was like watching clips of this on social media in, in the afternoon, and I, I [00:39:00] mean, I was literally... In that moment I was thinking, "I gotta preach tomorrow. What on earth am I gonna say?" Because all I can think about is this, you know?
And so I'm like watching this. I'm like pondering these like, what is our government, what... You know, like, what is happening? Like all of this. And then literally like one of my kids is like, "Dad, what's for dinner?" And it like jolted me of like, oh, I still have to feed my kids tonight, you know? And like I wouldn't say that's white magic.
That's like, that's just like the weird world we live in of like I still have to like take care of you, and then like I'm over here grieving, right? And you don't even under- Like they didn't even know what I was grieving. Like they just want dinner, you know? And it's like, and then you add in the, all the white magic stuff, and it's like it's so weird to navigate this.
And then I think for those of us who are very, um, burdened by this, to watch how many people are indifferent to it around us is like the [00:40:00] other whiplash, where you're watching Christians who are like, "Yeah, I don't care about Palestine. I don't care about Phil-" I mean, "I don't care about what ICE is doing. I don't care about all the people being deported.
I don't care." It's like... And then you're going like, "You just, you don't, like you don't care. Like your version of faith doesn't..." And, and, and it's like it's such a weird world, and I love that you like are giving us like language of like some white magic in there, you know? Like there's some weird things happening that aren't...
They're, they're real in the sense of like Amazon really will ship something to my house in a hour. So it's real, but it's not real in the way that you're saying. It's like it's not, it's not the way it appears. And I think... I don't, I don't, I'm just, I'm reacting 'cause it's like there's so much there and I don't know what to do with it other than just name it, I guess.
Like what do you think?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. And, um, the other thing I can name too is, uh, related to the wine experience too. So [00:41:00] um, worked at, uh, I'm like, "Ugh, should I say names?" At a, at a large, uh, winery owned by Constellation Brands. So Constellation is, like, a very, big I mean, they own, like- I think they own, like, Corona.
I don't know. I should, probably should, like, look it up before I'm saying that. But they, they're, they own, um, a lot of big, uh, producers. And the place that I worked at was, um... We made a million cases, like, the year that I worked there in the winery. So, like, that's a lot of wine. Um, and this idea of making everything certain and scalable, um, is a part of that, like, formula of, like, what I would say white magic is.
And where the are, they're no longer winemakers. Like, you're watching them think through, [00:42:00] like, "How can we ferment this the fastest?" Like, "How can we actually turn up the temperature of this tank," 'cause they're temperature controlled, "to move this out faster?" Because it doesn't even matter what it's gonna taste like, 'cause we're gonna be adding purple in, which is like a concentrated juice that um, changes the flavor and the color of the wine.
Um, we're gonna be adding that in afterwards in a lab, so it's fine. Just move it through. And we're also thinking about how many migrant workers we can exploit to move this through faster. Um, and it always comes out with a standard product that's predictable. And so much like in our culture, it's like predictable.
Don't be disruptive. Don't be the one who's making things challenging. Don't take time off of work to protest, because, like, is causing an issue with the way that we're trying to produce something. You're messing up our formula. [00:43:00] Um, like, being a part of that and being like, "I'm making... I'm a part of this process," and, like, now this wine is no longer wine in my mind.
I'm, like, just working in a factory that's trying to control something, people are taking that in and drinking it. And then, like, you know. And, so I'm like, "Where was I going with that?" But I think that, um, there's something about, like, the need to make everything scalable, everything predictable, everything, like, working out just fine that we are, like, falling into that equation of white magic.
'Cause it won't work anymore. Like, if you start saying, like, if the warehouse workers say, "I'm not showing up," like, the, the formula falls apart. Um, if we actually say we're gonna take care of the land, then the formula falls apart. Um- And so I think it's like holding [00:44:00] those things too, like how am I being complicit in this process?
But also, like we can't attend to everything, and we're not the saviors all of the problems in our world. Like, that's like... and having everything accessible on social media and Instagram, it's like it, it is overwhelming. You can't attend to all the pains in an instant either
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: So your explanation you just gave about mass-produced wine is like almost verbatim how I would describe my experience being a lead pastor
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Ah, totally
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Like eerily, obviously you're talking about a d- an entirely different industry, and I'm like, oh, that's how I felt was just like we don't care how you get there, get this thing to the end product that we want it to be. And, you know, move the ratios around however you need and disregard all the steps along the way, and then it's...
That's how I felt like I have ceased to be the pastor that [00:45:00] I was envisioned that I was, you know, which is the winemaker in your story, and now I'm just like the maintainer of this machine, right? Like you spin the knobs and you n- you have the knowledge to do it and just keep the formula always producing this one thing.
And that's, you know... And again, I write about this in my book, but that was like for me, like I didn't sign up for this. Like I didn't ever want to go do this, and my naivetƩ was thinking that I could go be the winemaker, right? That I could go to an environment where they would value some of those decisions, like, "Hey, let's take care of the employees.
Let's take care of the land. Let's take..." You know, when you're like, "Let's go actually do those things." Well, guess what? Then your wine is more expensive. You can't produce as much of it. It's gonna be different every year. You know, like, which are the good wines. Like those are the wines you wanna drink, but you can't mass produce those and then sell them for $10 at a grocery store.
And so it's like, it is just an amazing parallel there. Wow, this is like healing for me. Is this, is this therapy [00:46:00] right now? What are we doing? Like this is all like, oh gosh, I'm listening to you talk. I'm like that, that tracks Also, I was thinking as you're talking, my kids did a ICE protest at their high school, and the administration sent out an email to the parents beforehand discouraging our kids from participating in this because they had school classes to attend to.
And they're fine with them protesting as long as they did it after school. And I literally had the thought of like, "You're missing the point."
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yep.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Like,
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yep
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: oh, y- protest when it's convenient and when it doesn't disrupt anything? Like,
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Right
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: missing the fundamental point of what a protest is. A protest is designed to disrupt
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yeah
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: designed to disrupt the status quo, right?
And so I thought it was hilarious, because all like... my kids were like, "Hey, the, the, the, you know, the principal said we're not allowed to do it during school." I'm like, "Oh, I know what they said, and your parents are telling you you're allowed to go [00:47:00] ditch your class." You know, so it was a good conversation, but it is like, no, are we allowed to protest only when they say we can?
And I don't know, you're getting me all riled up today, or maybe it's all this wine I'm drinking.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: know
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: The other thing you got me thinking about, um, and I don't know where I read this or heard this, and so I can't remember. But on Amazon, um, someone was telling me, you know how they have like, they call Amazon Basics, which is like their brand of everything.
So it's like whatever it is you're buying, Amazon probably has an Amazon version of it. Now, I used to go like, "Oh, I'll just..." Like, "I'm not hoity-toity. I'll just get the Amazon..." You know, which I thought was like off-brand. That's how I kinda originally viewed it. Then I read or heard, I don't remember where I got this from, that someone said, "Whatever you see in Amazon Basics, that means they ripped off the formula for someone who is doing it the best, and then they are, uh, they're basically taking their method of doing it and undercutting them and then making a bigger profit."
And then I was like, "I'm never [00:48:00] ordering Amazon Basics ever again." Like, I want specific other companies, you know, to get a cut of this. And it's just like this system is everywhere, and when you start to see the white magic, you're like, "Oh my gosh." It's all over the place, Lauren. Okay, you got some other ideas.
I don't wanna lose some of these ideas. Okay, this is... Y- if you guys are not reading Lauren's Substack after this, you're missing it, because she's dropping some bombs over there. All right. So here's what she says: "I offer Mary and Jesus as our guides to sacred failure. Mary, the contaminator of our ideas of virginity, and Jesus, the contaminator of our ideas of savior."
Whew. Did you have a glass of wine before you wrote that sentence? Be honest.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I probably did. I was probably drinking a lot as I wrote this whole thing
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Okay, I wanna [00:49:00] unpack both parts of that. Let's start with Mary. What have you learned about Mary and the idea of virginity?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Okay, so I will say I am not a historian. I'm not a theologian. So this is, like, very much based on experience in, like, wine. And, um, so these are some playful ideas. Um, if, if you wanna show me some, like, historical records later, that's fine. But, um, within the food and wine world, um, when you think about something being virgin, it is a- actually almost the opposite of how we talk about Mary and being sterilized and being completely clean.
It's actually your ability to allow, uh, others to be in relationship with you, and you to be in [00:50:00] relationship with others. So when you're thinking about wine, if you're thinking about a clean wine, um, or a natural wine, you know, that is the ones that aren't sprayed, that aren't using the things to keep others away from them. but then we've swapped it, uh, with our idea of virgin, with Mary, a- or, you know, just virginity in general, purity culture. It is like you are not touched by anyone. You are completely clean. And I mean, this can be, like, sexual purity, or it can be, like, moral purity. Um, but you can't let anyone get close to you because that will who you are and your identity. But when you're thinking about wine-making, it's like bacteria, the yeast, the soil, the climate, all of those things is what make it what it is. And so it's like the magic happens in relationship, [00:51:00] through purity. Um, and so that was the idea behind, like, Mary and her being like, "I'm not gonna be have this label on of being this pure, chaste woman.
Like, no, I am in relationship." And she I believe, like, I have an idea that she chose to birth Christ outside of the city. Like, not just like, "Oh, poor Mary," like, "There was no room at the inn." Like, I think she's like, "Nah. I don't know if there's space for the Christ in this sort of room." Like, I think Christ needs to be birthed in the wild, in the place where there is relationship and magic alive, where there is dirt and bacteria and all those things.
So in my mind, like, that's how I see Mary. Um, and that's my idea of virginity, which is, like, completely based on- [00:52:00] Tending to the land and being a part of wine-making and food, not necessarily like historical research on the subject, which I know there are a lot of, uh, historians and theologians that would say Mary probably was not a virgin in the idea of she never had sex with anyone.
Um, but I won't claim that part because that's not the part I'm talking about. And then, um, in terms of Jesus, again, going back to wine and this idea of like with a single vineyard, or not a single vineyard, with a, um, with a lot of wines now, it's like the way that you think about it is the grape is the thing that brings the resurrection. But in my mind, Jesus, his resurrection was only possible because he was in relationship with others. And like there's no that like [00:53:00] Christ could be the Christ without all of the relationships that he had on Earth. And so he's actually like showing us how to walk ... And, and I should say like Billy and Paul Hoard, they're my colleagues, friends, um, they wrote a book called You Contamination, which is like you, E-U good contamination, and written a lot about this and they've done a lot of research on it, and they're, it, the book is so good. Um, and so they've written a lot about idea of like Jesus be- showing us what good contamination looks like. Um, but because we were talking all about this, I'm like, "This is all the ideas I've had about wine in the past." Um, and I like thought too is about Jesus being this individual savior. Like, you know, we are all told that, that like
Well, I shouldn't say we all were, but if you grew up in white, [00:54:00] uh, Christianity, um, it's all about your individual salvation and being saved. And that's also not the way that wine is made. It's a collective process where we're all being resurrected together. Um, so th- those are some of the ideas that I've had with, with Mary and Jesus, um, and how they relate to, to wine too.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Love it. We make room for all kinds of wild ideas here, and we don't, we don't land anywhere. Just let, let our listeners decide what resonates with them, but we like to, like to bring out unique perspectives, and I think you are bringing some really cool ones. Um, y- you have this phrase that I think maybe is a good way to kinda transition us.
You say, "We've become a culture afraid of impurities,"
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Mm-hmm.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: which I thought was such, like, a good summary. What does that mean to be a culture a- afraid of impurities?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yeah. Well, and [00:55:00] I think, There's something you were saying earlier that I was thinking about. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, with like being a pastor, too. Um, and even if you swap your logic or you swap your beliefs, like it's so easy to still say like, I can't have the things that are going to contaminate the way that I'm doing my work." Um, and like there's a lot of purity culture within politics as well. So, um, and I think that comes down to like individualism because we have these ideas that my identity needs to be pure. Like if I'm seen talking to Jeremy, and then Jeremy's associated with something that not a part of my identity, then
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Oh man, you're describing my evangelical upbringing right now
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Like then you've ruined my identity. Um, I mean, this goes [00:56:00] across the board. Um, and there's this, um, obsession somewhat with moral purity, and I think this goes beyond Christianity. This goes beyond conservativism. But like I am going to have the right beliefs about everything. I cannot be seen as someone who doesn't know something, someone who's learning, who makes a mistake.
Like that's not possible. Um, and it comes back to some of that, what you were talking about earlier, about like getting to the stage. Like can't have my identity, uh, contaminated at all because then I might not get to the stage versus like we're all co-creating this learning process. all failing all the time.
We're all making mistakes all the time, and like what does that mean for how we live with one another? Um, and [00:57:00] that's really the way that I think we're gonna get out of this mess is like accepting that we're all impure, that we're all making mistakes, we're all failing, and is like a complete myth.
Like there is actually no such thing as purity. Um, have more bacteria on your skin, like as one individual, than there are entire humans on this earth. So no matter how much you wash your hands, is bacteria all over you. Like there is this unseen world all the time happening around you, so this idea of like this fixed image where like I fit into these neat categories is just a complete myth.
Um, but goes back to social media, too. Like we have these images that we're trying to maintain on social media that, that we feel are our real us Rather than the experiences and the [00:58:00] conversations we're having with one another
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: You know, it makes me think in wine terms, most producers today are using... They're adding their own yeast in, but you have organic natural yeast that just is, like, on everything, you know?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Right
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: so, like, that's how it all began is, like, people just noticed, like, there was yeast around and it started affecting the ju- you know, and it's like, it just...
And if the conditions were right, it produced wine. And then they learned about it, and then they learned how they can, like, harness it and, you know, speed it up and intensify it. And so a lot, uh, people today are, you know, adding yeast. But the, y- even the idea of yeast, which makes it all possible, is a contamination of sorts, you know?
And I like that 'cause that's like, we go, "Oh, well that's good 'cause that leads to wine," right? But like, no. Like, what you're describing also is good. Like, it leads to, it leads to humanity, like, a, a more beautiful, fuller picture of humanity. And, um, yeah, it, it's so interesting to me. Um, and it, it depends on what [00:59:00] space I'm in, but, um, you know, I, I just am constantly...
I'm learning that there are certain people, like as, as a communicator, there's certain people I'm allowed to quote and other people I'm not allowed to quote. And that's so funny to me 'cause I just don't live in that world where, um... Now again, I, you know, if someone... I'm, I'm mindful of who I quote and what it might mean, but, um, but people draw these really intense lines and, um, you know, if I quote Rob Bell, I'll almost always get a comment, especially if it's an evangelical space.
Um, but even some more of the progressive spaces I'm in, uh, if I quote Bart Ehrman, who is an atheist Bible scholar, um, you know, I'll get, I'll get, "Why, why'd you quote him? He's against Christianity." It's like, well, okay, but do you actually disagree with the quote? "Well, no, I agree with the quote." All right, so like, so that's why, that's why I'm quoting him 'cause like, well, you know, he's a Bible scholar who made an interesting insight and, like, even if I don't ultimately land where he lands, like, I can learn from him in this regard or whatever.
And so it's just, [01:00:00] it, it is that purity, it's an intellectual purity, spiritual. I mean, it's like all these ideas and I love... It, it definitely comes out in your writing and your love of, of wine, of how much you just see the world more organically or beautifully or I don't know. And so I, I think it's an invitation for all of us, d- depending on your church background or what you were, what you were given, what you were raised, what, what box you inherited, to like open it up a little bit.
Like, it's gonna be okay. You're not... Little, little positive contamination, it's not gonna kill you. It's gonna lead maybe to some wine, some natural organic wine is gonna be emerging. All right, Lauren, let's transition to some questions I like to ask each of the guests, and we get to compare your answers.
And we'll start with a couple wine ones. Make these-- These should be easy for you. So sometimes I stump the guests on this one, but I'm expecting big things from you. If I were to, if I were to ask you, best glass of wine you've ever had in your life, [01:01:00] is there a memory that comes? You might have a handful, but at least one that you go, "Oh, my gosh, that was, that was as, like, perfect as I could imagine it."
Do you remember what it was, where you were, who you were with? What, what's the story behind it?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yes, I think, um, it was a Brunello di Montalcino. Uh, so that's 100 p- percent Sangiovese grapes. Um, and it was from Stella. So, uh, she is a, um, biodynamic woman wine maker, um, in Montalcino. Um, my husband and I visited her vineyard in 2016, um, on our honeymoon. Um, and we had the 20- I [01:02:00] think it was 2010, uh, i- two years ago. Um, so I would say that was the best wine that I've had. Um, b- it was attached to memories too, but, like, I, I, I am a sucker for Sangiovese. It's like I- probably just because, like, fell in love with, like, Chianti when I was there. Um, which I know some people don't love Sangiovese, but I, I love it because it's like, has that rustic, like, dried strawberry, like, leathery, you know.
It's, it's just great. I love it. Um, so I think that was my favorite wine that I've had.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Nice. Love it. All right. Which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you, and who would you not trust, and why?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Oh my gosh. Okay. What? Uh, I was like, uh, maybe I would [01:03:00] trust... I don't what she... she drank wine. Um, Julian of Norwich to, to pick a wine
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Okay
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: ' cause she's, like, mystical, like, very
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: She's probably a good time, yeah
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: yeah, yeah. Like, so I think I would trust her. Um, oh my God, it to be historical? Uh,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: I mean
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: who would I not trust? Uh, lots
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: A- any, any member of church history
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: um- Uh, let's see
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: It could be someone alive today that you're like, "I wouldn't have them pick out a bottle of wine for me."
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Oh, I,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: We're not saying we hate the person, we're just saying you wouldn't have them pick out a bottle of wine
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: state. I'm like Mark Driscoll.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: There we go. Okay, yeah
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: maybe embodying a little bit of magic. I don't know.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Oof. He might have a, a bottle [01:04:00] of wine named that
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yeah. That's funny.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Okay, that's a solid one. I'm with you. I, I don't think I'd have him pick one for me either. Uh, what is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Oh, man. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is, um, in, in college, I mean, I definitely, uh, did not believe in, uh, gay marriage, and I, I was always very, um, like, "Oh, I, like, have compassion for that," or like the... Um, but I didn't see the magic, [01:05:00] the wild magic that's within, um, queer relationships and, um, how much of Christ is actually part of that and not just like, "Oh, I'm affirming," but also, like, there is amazing power and beauty within that.
Um, so I would say that that has evolved drastically for me over the past 10 years
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Nice. Very good. What do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in the US today?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Mm. I would say, I mean, a lot of what we're talking about now. Um, mean, I definitely... I'm, I'm worried about, um, Christian nationalism for sure. Like, that's the very, explicit, uh, of, um, uh, the capitalist beliefs that we're talking about. But I [01:06:00] feel, worried and concerned about swapping beliefs without swapping practices, and I think that we need to be most focused on, like, what does it mean to be in right relationship with one another and build communities that are resilient? I have no doubt that it's probably gonna get worse. Um, and I just know, I, I'm, I'm not as worried about how bad things are gonna get, but are more worried about, like, are we able to be in relationship with one another?
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Hmm. That's good. What is something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Oh, man. Um, that's a good question. I feel like I'm often learning less than I want [01:07:00] to with two young kids. Um, well, I'm learning a lot, but not, like, things that I can articulate, uh, clearly. Um, but I'll probably say something from them. Um, I am learning, um, it's blowing my mind how hard but how good it is to play, um, and actually play with my kids and, like, be caught up in their world, and it's blowing my mind when I actually, like, give in to that and be a kid for, for a minute
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: I love that. That's a, that's a fun activity. What's something you're excited about right now?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Um, I am going to start my master's in, [01:08:00] uh, f- food history and gastronomy in the fall, um, at Boston University, and I'm excited about that. Not
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Y-
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: But I'm not moving. I- it's, it's an online program, so I will be here in Albuquerque, uh, for a long time. Um, so I am excited about that, uh, 'cause, um, I have had to kind of put some of my hopes of like doing m- more food history and studying that, um, hold, and now I have a chance to do that, so I'm excited about it
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Is there anything else that I have not asked you about that you're like, "Look, I gotta, I gotta say something about this before we close this episode"?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Oh, that's a good question. Um, oh, you know what I'll do? I'll, uh, will show, [01:09:00] uh, 'cause I was looking at them earlier. These are the books I'm reading right now. So this is Dirty Guide to Wine. You should write it down. Um, oh yeah, something she says in here that's super cool is, um, rather than considering the earth, like, uh, the soil as the earth's skin, considering it as the earth's gut. And I'm like, "Oh, I love that." I... But this is, like, talking about all about the soil science of wine. Um, I'm also reading this book by Martin Shaw. it's amazing. Uh,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Liturgies of the Wild, if you're only listening to this
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: know I should say it out loud 'cause this, people are not gonna see it. Um, Liturgies of the Wild by Martin Shaw, um, is an amazing book that is like...
I should have said this is blowing my mind right now. It's really good. Um, but anyway, those are two books [01:10:00] that I'm reading right now that are, like, really blowing my mind and I'm drawing a lot from in this moment. And, um, but other than that, I have no idea what else to share
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Oh, I love it. I love getting a good book that you're just working your way through and it's, you know, giving you new thoughts and new things. Oh, it's like... I got a Richard Rohr book right now I'm working my way through and I'm just loving it. And, uh, and as I love, I love good books
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Albuquerque. You know, he,
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: You know what? That is, that's the best argument you've given yet.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Yeah.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Yep.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: That's solid. Is he from there or he just has, like, lived there?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I don't, I don't know when he m- moved here, but I mean, he is, he's here, like very much here.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: He's here. He's Albuquerque.
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: He is Albuquerque.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: That's amazing. All right, fine. I'll, I'll open the door and my heart to [01:11:00] Albuquerque a little bit. I'll crack the door a little bit. I'm not gonna open it. I'll give it a little crack, and we'll see what God does with that. How about that?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: yeah, yeah. Good idea.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: Well, Lauren, you are making Albuquerque cooler.
Thank you for doing all this. How can people find you online if they're like, "Look, I really resonate with her"? What's the best way for them to connect with you?
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: I'm on Substack. It's just under my name, Lauren Peiser. That's probably the easiest way to find me and my writing. Um, I am not very active on Instagram. I have one, but I don't do very much.
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: I will put a link to the Substack in the show notes as well so you guys can go find it there. Loren, I love what you have written. I love the way you are using your imagination to connect wine and theology and life and experiences, and you are inviting us all to see something beautiful and see something bigger.
So thank you for that, and thanks for joining us on the podcast today
lauren-peiser--she-her-_1_05-05-2026_140828: Awesome. Thank you, Jeremy
jeremy_1_05-05-2026_130839: [01:12:00] All right, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray
