The Quantum Gospel (with Keith Giles) | Ep. 76

July 01, 2026

Keith Giles spent two years digging through gospels that didn't make the cut, the ones buried in a jar in the Egyptian desert in 1945 alongside fifty other texts the church decided not to count. On this episode, Jeremy pours a Bordeaux blend and sits down with the author of the Quantum Gospel series to ask what it means that the people who assembled the New Testament were doing canon math with politics in the room. They get into the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, and the idea that the Spirit might still be speaking through novels, sunsets, and Alanis Morissette songs, whether the canon ever reopens or not. Jeremy calls Keith a heretic in the first five minutes. By the end, you might wonder if that's just another word for someone who kept reading.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/wby8uEafFKQ

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My new book, The Edge of the Inside, is now available. You can get a signed copy or in whatever form you prefer: https://www.edgeoftheinside.com/

Join the online community and get access to exclusive content and experiences: https://www.jeremyjernigan.com/online-community

Trying to make sense of faith? Download my free Deconstruction Field Guide. It's a ten-page resource to help you navigate what's next so you don't have to do it alone. https://www.jeremyjernigan.com/opt-in

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Links for Keith:

Episode Transcript

The Quantum Gospel (with Keith Giles) | Ep. 76
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[00:00:00] Well, before I get into today's episode, I wanna tell you about something I'm doing this summer and invite you to be a part of it. Starting July 6th, I'm leading a 12-week book study through a novel called Theo of Golden by Alan Levi. It's the story of a stranger who arrives in a small town, finds portraits of people in the community hanging in a coffee shop, and starts buying them one by one and then giving them to the person for nothing but their story.

It sounds simple, but it is a beautiful story of how to see everything happening around you and be more present to all of it. We're reading it together inside of our online community, one section a week, with a discussion prompt every Monday. So 12 weeks beginning Monday, July 6th. The reading load is light.

It's around 30 pages a week. But the conversations, if my experience with this community and previous book studies is any guide, will not be light. [00:01:00] If you've been curious about community but you haven't had a reason to jump in yet, this is a good reason. There is a link in the show notes to sign up, and I hope that we will see you in Golden

Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith.

And today we're going to explore some less traditional ideas in theology. This is gonna be a fun one, and for a lot of you, if you have grown up in the church, and maybe more evangelical, more traditional, some of these ideas today are gonna be a little bit out there for you, and it's gonna, it's gonna be exciting.

And I'm excited for you to have the experience and the exposure and to see where all these ideas go. Today is a conversation with Keith Giles. Keith is the best-selling author of the seven-part Jesus Un- series. He's appeared on CNN, USA Today, Coast to Coast with George Noory, [00:02:00] BuzzFeed, and John Fugelsang's Tell Me Everything.

He co-hosts the Heretic Happy Hour podcast, which gives you a little flavor of where we're going today, and just so many interesting things that, that we get into today about not only his latest book, but then so many ideas around it. I found it fascinating. I think you will find it fascinating as well.

One little housekeeping note: we had internet issues, and when I mean we, my internet and my whole neighborhood went down for, like, an entire evening. So there is a point where, we had to stop and then have a second session. If you are listening to this only, my hope is you don't even notice where that happens.

If you are watching this on video, you, you'll probably notice something looks a little different at one point. But thanks to the magic of editing, it, it will be minimal and hopefully shouldn't be too distracting. This is episode [00:03:00] 76, The Quantum Gospel.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" You gotta drink a lot.

The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment. Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do.

I'm kinda geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had, like, three sips of this wine, and I'm already feeling it, so [00:04:00] this is fun.

You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it. We're gonna sit down at a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus.

Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing. It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine.

That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know. I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday.

If you're [00:05:00] familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology. So I... Ooh, I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently, the wine is... Here we are. Queer we are. Beer we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be.

I know why you have your guests drink wine. It makes sense now. Yeah. I get it. A little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice, isn't it? Cabernet and pray, yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Well, today on the podcast, we have one of the nicest heretics you will ever meet in your life. Welcome to the podcast, Keith

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Oh, Jeremy, so good to be here, man. Thanks so much. Yes, I'm trying to be the, at least if I'm gonna be a heretic, I wanna be a nice one

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: You're a Jesus-looking heretic.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Thank you.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: How about that?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah, I was just talking to my wife about this today. I just got invited to [00:06:00] a debate, um, with somebody and, uh, so I was researching the, the guy who, who's challenging me, you know, for the debate just to see what he's done in the past.

And it's like, yeah, you know, half of the battle when you're in a debate, like with someone like that, I... At least to me, half of the battle on the debate is, um, you kind? Are you thoughtful? You know, um, are you loving? Are you patient? You know what I mean? Like, I think that goes a long way.

It's not just what you're arguing and the strength of your argument, it's also the way you present that argument. And so, um, so far it seems to be like that's the easiest, sa- sadly to say, it's the easiest part of the battle to win for a lot of the debates I've been in because the, uh, the other person is just sort of so rigid, and sure of themselves, and cocky and, you know, uh, and condescending.

You know, like, yeah, not, not good

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Yeah. you know, displaying the fruit of the spirit is, is, uh, is a [00:07:00] secret weapon

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: That's, that's exactly what it is. That's, that's all it is. That's exactly right. uh, be, you know, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control. That's ... Those are important things, and if you can do that, then, you know, then just make your case and the rest is easy

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Yeah, I, I tell people all the time, you know, if you're listening to two people talk and they're debating, you know, theology or

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: is like this and not like that, and one of them is a total asshole,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yes.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: the other one you're like, I wanna be more like you," uh, you're gonna be more intrigued by that person's ideas, right?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: I th-

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: whatever their view of God is, you're gonna be drawn. Like, what, what led you to that? And conversely, like, why are you an asshole about this? Like, what do you believe about God that produces that? You know what I mean?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Right Yeah, it is a bit of the, like, sort of like, um, kinda proof of concept. Like, what's the fruit of thinking

and living that way, right? I apparently, it does matter.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: What does your theology produce? Yeah

because if it's, you [00:08:00] know, so if, if you're a total jerk, I'm Not, as interested in your theology.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: exactly. Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Well, there, there we go. On that note, let's dive into a wonderful conversation because you're not an asshole, so we'll,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Thank you.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: we'll run with that. Before we dive in, let's talk about what we're drinking.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: I've got something I can't pronounce, so I'm going to say it confidently

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: and hope that no one knows how it's actually pronounced, but this is a 2018 Chateau Giscour Margot.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Oh,

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: That's how... That's what I'm going with.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: It is a Bordeaux blend from France, and so it's a, it's a big boy red,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Oh, yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: and I love Bordeaux blends.

I, I constantly am going back to them on this. 55% Cabernet, 39% Merlot, with a little 6% Petit Verdot thrown in just for fun, right? To, to make it fun. And then I'm getting just some great balance on it. So I'm getting the fruit notes, I'm getting the tertiary [00:09:00] notes. I'm getting black cherry as, as kind of like the darker fruit, and then also fun notes like graphite and leather that I'm getting there in, as well, which I really enjoy.

And so this is a fun big boy sipper to have a great conversation about Jesus with. So that's what I'm enjoying. Keith, what do you got in, in your glass today?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: All right, so, uh, I'm just gonna read from the label. This is from Seven Oaks. It's a J. Lohr, L-O-H-R. Uh, and then below that it's, it's a Paso Robles Cabernet Sauvignon from 20, uh, sorry, 2022. Um, and again, I'm just reading from the label here. It, uh, it boasts ripe flavors of black currant and cherry, by a bouquet of vanilla and spice from one year of barrel aging, and is an e- excellent companion to grilled beef, lasagna, or dark chocolate.

None of which am

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: you go.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: at this moment, but

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Let's get you some dark chocolate

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah, that would be great. Yeah, I do have [00:10:00] a little bit, a plate of cheese here next to me just to, for, you know, to, to kinda go with it. But, uh, yeah, it's, um, it's really good. And actually, I w- uh, I only got this because on Saturday, um, we had a going away party. Or f- we're moving from El Paso to, uh, Portland, Oregon at the end of June.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Portland, I love Portland

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: and one of the, one of the guests brought this bottle. And we never opened it at the actual party, so I opened it just a few minutes ago, uh, for this conversation

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: So it's your first, it's your maiden voyage with this wine

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Of, of this wine, yes. I, I've never had this before, but I, I would order it a- I would buy it again. It's really good

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Excellent. Well, That's good. A- and so hopefully, dear listener, if you are enjoying a glass with us, you're enjoying something as well. And if you're driving or exercising or doing something else, then hey, we're just glad to be in your ears throughout your day, whatever, whatever it is that you're doing.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: can I just say too, like I wonder, um, I'm assuming you do this every interview, right? You invite your [00:11:00] guest to have a glass of wine with you.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: I do, yes

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: that mean you never, um, uh, do an interview before noon? Or have you had like morning wine with someone?

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: That's a, that's a great question, and I absolutely have had morning wine.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Okay. Wow

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: yes, and what's fun is I think the earliest, I'm trying to think. Off the top of my head, I think the earliest was a-- for me, it was 9:00 AM because

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: guest was in France,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Oh,

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: and so I think that was like the time zone that made sense.

It was like evening for him, and I think it was 9:00 AM. And I, I remember thinking like, "Okay, this is, I'm-- this is like a breakfast wine that I'm, you know, I'm pouring today." But what's funny is I usually will give people a few time options and, you know, if we got people on the East Coast, that gets a little trickier.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Right

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: so one of my options that I do each week is an 11:00 AM option. So that is, for me, pre-lunch, and I don't love that as much.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: I do regularly have people, even on the West Coast, pick the 11:00 AM op- AM [00:12:00] option.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Well

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: And what I've told people in the past is that when I did my wine certification, they actually recommend that you do wine tasting like at 10:00 AM in the morning because your palate is fresh.

And so you will pick up more things before you've eaten all day and

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Got

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: dulled it. out

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Huh. That, okay, that makes sense.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: It makes you feel better about drinking in the morning, at least, right?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: that's good. But I mean, so we're, we're recording this at about 2:00 PM my time, so that's, that's perfect

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Yeah, so we're, we're, we're 1:00 PM my time. I just had lunch. Everything's great.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yep

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Setting up my afternoon, you know, maybe get a nap in. We'll see. We'll see how the, how the day progresses. I don't know.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Exactly

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Okay, so before we dive into your latest book, one of the questions I love to ask our guests that gives our listeners a chance to get a bit of your backstory, a bit of perspective on, on who you are, and I love narrowing it down.

So I wanna talk about your faith journey, but let's look at the last 10 years. It's been a, [00:13:00] a rocky 10 years, as we have noted, uh, whenever I ask this question. But how would you say that your faith has changed in the last 10 years?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Great question. And it, it's actually really helpful. Like, a lot of times when I'm, I do these interviews, they, uh, they want me to tell the whole story, and I have to go back to, like, when I was in college or something. Um, so yeah, the t- 10 years is good. That's, that, that's, uh, a little more doable. Yeah, so I would say in the last 10 years, I, and I have to think about it too because, you know, I think our perception of time has changed.

So it's 2026. 10 years ago been 2016, right? Um, so my book, Jesus Untangled, had first come out. That was, um, that was the first book that I did with Choir Publishing, and it, you know, spawned this seven-part book series. Um, so I would say at that point, was, uh, 10 years ago, I was really just getting into my own personal deconstruction, um, [00:14:00] questioning my faith, and that's why I wrote that seven-part series, that book series, because just sort of, myself, dismantling and questioning and rethinking what I end up calling sort of the, the seven pillars of my evangelical faith.

And, um, so that's how I started 10 years ago. That's where I was at. know, since that time, really when I finished that series, um, I was kind of like, "Okay, now what?" You know? Like, I know what I don't believe really, or I, I've kind of just established what I believe about those seven things, but now what, you know?

And, and so then I s- where I started, and that's where I am now, at that point, I kind of shifted, and what I, what I realized was that, um ... The way ex- the way I express it is saying, like, theology is y- you know, discussion of God, right? You're t- you're trying to explain God and how you understand who God is and all that.

Um, and so I realized, like, if God is this [00:15:00] being that is beyond all human comprehension, then it doesn't make any sense if the next thing out of your mouth is, "Let me tell you all about him." And so, know what I mean? And the, and

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Yeah

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: going through the deconstruction process that I went through is that, um, that it's not about having all the right answers, right?

That it's not about this certainty, 'cause certainty is a, is an illusion. No one... You have a sense of certainty when you have, you're in that evangelical Christian faith, but it's an illusion. It, you don't really know these things. You just, you're convinced of them, right? Um, so as I went through my deconstruction process, I, um, I recognized that, you know, and I say this to people all the time, like in all of your deconstruction of your theology, you know, I think it's a good idea to deconstruct your need to be right about everything.

Otherwise, you just become a fundamentalist about your new, uh, theology. And, and so kind of leaning more into that, I kind of, it kind of led me more into this idea of embracing mystery, of [00:16:00] recognizing that God is this being beyond all human comprehension, and, and that, that knowing God isn't about information, but it's about transformation Um, and a real pivotable, pivotal, um, verse for me in that process was in the Gospel of John.

Um, a passage where Jesus says that doesn't sound scandalous at all in the English translation, but I think if you go into the Greek and look at the meaning of each of these words, it's, it's a extremely scandalous statement. Um, the English it just says, Jesus says, "Now this is eternal life, that you would know God and His Son whom He has sent."

Um, and it's not scandalous in English because I think we, again, my evangelical Christian background, I assumed that when it said to know God, eternal life is to know God, that it meant having the right doctrine, the right information, being able to pass the cosmic quiz. You know, when we all die and go to heaven, and, uh, we have to pass this q- answer all these [00:17:00] questions correctly to get in.

Um, but that's not at all what Jesus says. Like, uh, in the Greek, he doesn't use the word episteme. That's what it... That's the word he would've used if he, if what he meant was eternal life was to have all the right information about God and His Son. Instead, he uses this word ginosko, and that is the word for knowing experientially.

In fact, it's, it's a, it's the word you would use to describe what happens when a husband knows his wife and she conceives new life within her. And I think that's... So that's why I think it's a scandalous statement. He's literally saying eternal life is to have intercourse with the divine. Um, wow, that's really different, right?

So, you know, leaning into that, like it's abo- it's, it's about the mystery of God. So it's, um, it's re- realizing that God, so where I am now, is realizing that God is, um... It's not about explaining God, it's more about experiencing God. Like, I [00:18:00] think we're incapable of explaining God, but I think we're more than capable of experiencing, uh, the divine, and so I'm leaning more into that.

that, that embracing of mystery also led me, um, and this leads me to my book, uh, that I'm working, that I just published, um, and a series that I'm working on, uh, this quantum theology direction. Um, because I was, I was writing a book called Solum Mysterium, researching that book, I sort of started looking into quantum science.

and so then that kind of led me th- down the path I'm on right now, uh, this quantum theology series.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: I I love, i love the phrase intercourse with the divine. Maybe that needs to be the title of the episode today. Just change, change gears.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: I think that would be, uh, you may get a lot more clicks than you you would otherwise. Intercourse with the divine, wow

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Intercourse with the divine. Yeah

that, that phrase just rolls, rolls off the, the tongue there, then you're like, "Huh, what

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: what does that mean?" Uh, [00:19:00] okay, I love that. All Right. so g- handful of places I wanna go here. Uh, we'll just pick one. So your, your latest book is about the Gospel of, of Philip,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Mm-hmm

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: which is obviously a book most Christians are not familiar with.

It's not in, uh, the, the, the Bible that most of you have,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yep

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: uh, this is not one of those. When did you first discover this book? What, what was your journey with it?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah. Well, um, it kind of backs up a little bit. So I, um, I initially wrote a book, like about two years ago, called The Quantum Sayings of Jesus: Um, Decoding the Lost Gospel of Thomas. And so, um, it- the, the funny thing was that, like, as I was looking into quantum science and, and what the things that quantum science is sort of suggesting about reality, uh, and we can get into that in a second.

Um, around the same time, sort of serendipity, um, someone had mailed me a book on the Gospel of Thomas, which by the way, up to this point I had, I had attempted to read once, and [00:20:00] before, and I thought... I never finished it. I just thought it was ridiculous. That was the dumbest thing I've ever read. Why would anybody think that this is real?

It's just the sayings of Jesus make no sense, uh, and I just dismissed it. And s- but anyway, so, uh, around this time, somebody had sent me a, a copy of the book, uh, to read, so I, I read it on a plane. I was traveling. And at the beginning of the book, the author says that, first of all, acknowledge what I just said.

that most people, when they read the Gospel of Thomas, dismiss it as being ridiculous. And I'm like, "Yep, that's me. Y- I'm with you so far." And then he says, "Well, it's because that when we read Thomas, we don't understand where s- We have to read it through sort of a lens of understanding like that every, all of these sayings of Jesus," there's 144 sayings of Jesus in Thomas, all of them have to be read through this lens and this filter of, um, non-duality, of our oneness with the, with God, and our, and therefore our oneness and our connection with all of humanity."

And then he gave some examples, I thought, "Well, maybe I'll give it another shot." And then [00:21:00] I did that, and I was like, "Holy cow, I think he's right." Um, and then, so then I just kinda dove into Thomas. Well, Thomas is, um, the Gospel of Thomas is a book that was discovered at Nag Hammadi, and, um, like in around 1945 in Nag Hammadi, Egypt.

it was discovered alongside, uh, like a 50 or something other sort of lost Christian texts, including the Gospel of Philip. So it really started with Thomas. I wrote that book and, um, it did really well. so then I thought, "Well, I'm gonna continue down this road." So then in, uh, the second book was The Quantum Gospel of Mary.

Um, and I think I also include, I also included the Gospel of Truth in that book. So that's sort of two for one in that book, um, which is another Nag Hammadi text. And then I really wanted to do Philip. I wasn't sure. Well, like, so when I... So I looked at Philip, and Philip, the Gospel of Philip and the Gospel of Thomas were bound together.

They were found in the same sort of... They were next to each other in, in the jar basically where they were [00:22:00] discovered. Um, so I think whoever decided to bury them in that jar in the desert, um, it feels like It's almost intended like a, yeah, these two, these, these two books kind of go together. they complement one another.

Um, so yeah, that's why I- and once I read the Gospel of Philip too, it blew me away. I also was not familiar with it before this, right? Um, but having, having studied Thomas and then Mary and then the Gospel of Truth, um, when I came to the Gospel of Philip, um, I was really Like, it, it's, it's a f- it's a fabulous book.

It's really beautiful. There's some, some beautiful and ideas in this, uh, in this book that frankly I don't think would be out of place, uh, if you, if you did put it in, you know, the New Testament that we have today. Um, yeah, it's, it's, I think it's pretty amazing

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: I love, I love hearing your journey to that. You know, I, I grew up in a tradition where, you know, [00:23:00] anything apocryphal was w- highly suspect, you know? And, and it was like, "Oh, don't, don't even waste your time," but even more so of like, these are sinister texts, you know, like claiming to be something they're not.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Um, and I realized... This, this is my, my, my fun fact for you. I realized how much PTSD I carry with that as an adult today because I recently bought a new Bible. I, I had been, uh, intrigued with the NRSVUE, uh, translation and, and so I was like, "Hey, I wanna, I wanna buy a copy of this," and, you know, have it as, as I pre- as I'm preaching, I like to compare different versions.

Well, the version I get has the Apocrypha

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Ah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: and I'm like, "Well, if I've got it, I'm gonna start reading it." And Keith, I'll tell you what, I feel like I'm doing something naughty

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: I'm reading Tobit, you know what I mean? Like... And it's in this... And, and it, like, made me aware of like, [00:24:00] whoa, there's something not logical but very emotional

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: buried in me, you know, from my upbringing that, that I'm having to work through as an adult, which is kind of comical now 'cause I'm like, "Why, why am I having any reaction to this now?"

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: And, and now it's a kinda like this fun, like, Yeah

these are... It, it's like books of the Bible I've never read before, you know? And it's like,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: just like getting to read the Bible again for the first time, which once you do that once, you can't ever do that again, right?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah. Yeah,

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: And so it does kinda feel like that fun journey.

Um, and then what that started realizing for me, which is why I love your whole series here, because I think you're inviting people into this journey. 'Cause then what I started realizing is so much of the things we do accept, we would put in the same apocryphal category, and I'll give you the example that for me was really helpful.

I grew up being told about all the martyrs of the disciples and what... You know, Peter was hung upside down, and this, you know, and like all these stories, Right

[00:25:00] These are all apocryphal stories. And I remember the, the thought or, you know, someone probably said this, that, you know, if you believe those and you have any confident in, confidence in those, you could also read and have confidence in other apocryphal texts from the same time.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Absolutely

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: blew my mind of like, oh yeah, we always talk about Peter was crucified upside down. That's not in the text. Like, That's apocryphal, and so if you can go there, maybe you can entertain some of these other books.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Absolutely. Well, look, here's the other thing, and I, I, I, forgive me if I, if I rock the boat too much here. Um, like just even looking at the New Testament, you know, like most, most scholars will admit that Peter did not w- like, the actual Peter, the disciple Peter, he did not write First and Second Peter.

Like, those are... Some other guy wrote those much later. Peter was long dead, and someone else wrote those and put Peter's name on it. That's not Peter. it's also a shock to [00:26:00] find out that there are several of the letters of Paul not written by Paul, you know? Um, the, what we call the pastoral letters, um, Titus, um, uh, First and Second Timothy, and Titus, were also probably not written by Paul, uh, either.

Again, written much later, 'cause those texts deal a lot more with sort of church structure and, uh, you know, authority and that kind of thing. And but that wasn't an issue at all, you know, when Paul was alive and was writing. And, um, and, and one that shocks me and disappoints me, um, when I, when I found this out was like, um, Ephesians and Colossians, probably also not written by Paul.

and so right there, I mean, you know, if you, if you think about the Bible you have and you do consider authoritative, keep in mind that, well, not a- not everything in your New Testament can be taken at face value. you know, I, I've also come across a lot of things in our English translations of the Bible, um, words that [00:27:00] are left out, words that are put in, that are tr- translated, you know, sort of in suspicious ways to me that are like, "Hmm, I don't know.

Uh, why did they re- why did they do it that way?" Um, so, you know, there's a lot of things like that. And, and one thing I always say also about, like specifically about the Gospel of Thomas, 'cause one of the criticisms about the Gospel of Thomas will, uh, is usually things like, well, um, you know, a lot of scholars will date the Gospel of Thomas that it came after, uh, the, the Gospels that we have, right?

And, and therefore, since it's so much later, we shouldn't take it seriously. Well, then, the Gospel of John. Um, of John comes way later than Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And then the other thing about Thomas is that, you know, a criticism about Thomas is like, well, it contains new teachings, um, which is about half right.

Out of the 144 sayings in Thomas, half of those sayings are already in the, the Gospels that we do have, so they're not new. The other half are new sayings. [00:28:00] but if you're gonna reject Thomas because it, it contains, quote-unquote, "new sayings" that we don't find in the other Gospels, again, that's the Gospel of John.

John is almost 90% brand-new material that, like, that comes out of nowhere and comes much later. So, you know, again, so it's sort of like be consistent in the way you think about and the way you treat the texts. Um, personally, uh, I feel that the Gospel of Thomas, um, and I'm not alone, there's a lot of scholars that feel this way, um- I mean, again, not to get too much inside baseball, but, um, you know, uh, scholars for the longest time, have noticed similarities between Matthew, Mark, and Luke, especially Matthew and Luke.

Um, Matthew and Luke disagree on lots of the details of the life of Jesus, is shocking in itself. They don't agree on a lot of things. But where, where they do agree is every time they quote Jesus Every time they quote Jesus, they quote him almost verbatim the same. And so to explain that, like how could that be?

They're, they're getting [00:29:00] all the... They, they don't agree on the details of the, of the events of the life of Jesus. Um, they disagree on that. But boy, when they quote him, they got him down perfect. the assumption was that there had to be something called a Q document, which was a collection of the sayings of Jesus that they both were referring to.

Like, "Oh, we have to quote Jesus here. Now I'm gonna turn to this Q document. I'm gonna pull the quote out and drop it in." Um, and for the longest time, that was a theory because we had no examples of Q document that existed, 1945 we discovered the Gospel of Thomas and translated it into English and realized, oh, Thomas is a Q document.

It's just a collection of the sayings of Jesus. so you know what I mean? Like, so I think for that reason, there's, it's a good re- not the only reason, but it's a good reason to think that Thomas, it, it, it may be even older, um, maybe even younger than the Gospel of John. Um, and again, another example of that, of that is that there are, there's several things in the Gospel of John [00:30:00] specifically that seem to be reacting to things that are said in Thomas.

And so Thomas would have to exist already for John to react to them and wanna, you know, respond to them. Um, so anyway, yeah, I, I, my attitude has changed as well. Like I, I used to think the same thing, like, we shouldn't have permission to do this, you know, this is dangerous, whatever. But, um, especially since my deconstruction, um, and, and I, I look at the Bible as a document in a way where I kinda feel like it does- it shouldn't exist, shouldn't be a Bible.

Um, there's so much politics that went arou- that went through the church around the time, you know, post-Constantine. Um, like if you think about it this way, like the, for about 300, 400 years of church history, that's a long time. Three and a half, four, 400 years of church history where Christians didn't feel like they all had to agree on which [00:31:00] texts are scripture and which aren't.

Um, and when you look at those early church fathers, they, they were pretty open about text that they considered to be, uh, scripture, but sometimes it was some of these apocryphal books, right? Some of these guys thought that, you know, the Shepherd of Hermas was scripture, or the Wisdom of Solomon, or, you know, uh, a lot of texts most, most people never heard of.

Um, and, and that was okay. That's the point. Like, it was okay for every individual follower of Jesus to decide for themselves This text is inspiring to me. I feel this text is inspired, I feel like God is speaking to me through these texts and these writings, and others not so much. And everybody was fine with that, again, for like over 300 years.

Um, I think once we allowed a committee of, of men who most people don't know their names to decide for all of us for all time these are the words of God and, and, a- and everything else is not, [00:32:00] um, I think that was a bad idea. And I think that, um... No, I do. I, I, 'cause I think it

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: No, I agree. It's just a funny way to say it

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: also plants this idea that everything God ever wanted to say to the human race, he said it 2,000 years ago, we're done.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Yeah, it becomes a cage.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: I don-

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Yeah, you gotta

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: God is, the Spirit of God is still alive and is still speaking

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: You gotta fit all of God, all of the f, the infinite God into a finite text that, you know, e- exists and is not changing, is not growing. But

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: He...

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: God can't do anything new 'cause God is bound by that

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Right. Exactly. God, whatever God wanted to say to the human race, he only said it to this, the couple of handfuls of people, and all

men, and that

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: and even in the text, it, it, it

pokes holes in that, because in John 16,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yep

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: you know, Jesus says, "There's more I wanna say to you, but you couldn't bear it now." You know, it's like Jesus didn't even get to everything that he wanted to get to with his own disciples. He's like, "You weren't ready for some of the stuff that I had for you."

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: That's

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: And, you know, then he says, "The [00:33:00] Spirit will guide you into all truth," which,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: right.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: great, so then we can use the Spirit to navigate.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Yeah. if you wanna... Here's what I would say, dear listener. If you wanna feel confident and certain in your view of the Bible, do not study it. Because when you study it, you start to find out these things, and you. go, "Huh."

Like, another example that, that to me is, like, very problematic, like the Book of James.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: the Book of James. A lot of believers are like, "This is so practical. This is so helpful. You know, it's Jesus' brother. Of course it's... You know, it's a goldmine." There's no way that was written by Jesus' brother, who didn't know Greek and was...

You know, lived in a little village and would have not have been educated to have written this. And so it's like when you study that and you go, "Oh Yeah

that, that would be very improbable that this was Jesus' brother that wrote all this down, who didn't know Greek," right.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yep.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: And then we go, "Oh Yeah

well, that's a, that's one detail."

But I think all of it, I totally agree with you, that the moment it became, [00:34:00] you know, thus sayeth the Lord for all time,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah,

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: we lost what really was. And, you know, like the Book of Galatians is one of my favorite New Testament books, which

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: too. I love it

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: we're way more confident Paul wrote that one than the other ones that you, you referenced.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah, so

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: But even then, I go, "Okay,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: he wrote. Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: so we-we're on good, you know, solid ground with Galatians and Paul as the author," but do you think Paul thought, "When, what I'm writing here, I am writing for them to bind this into a book later that all generations will hang on these words?" It is like,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: No.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: I just don't think at all Paul was writing like that.

And so I think Paul's thinking, "This will be helpful. You know, God's gonna use this communication and this..." A-and then the moment we, we turned it into something else, we lost it. And then it, like you were saying, it shuts us off to anything else

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: that we might learn from. And, you know, one of the things that I've told people is, like, "Okay, take the Gospel of Thomas," or whatever.

Um, is there anything you can glean from it? So, like, even if you're like, "Hey, I, [00:35:00] can't, you know, go full, full on on it," all right. Is there anything that it is helpful? Does God do anything good with it? And if the answer is yes, then what a, what a blessing. Like, what a gift if you got something out of that that God used.

So I don't know. To me, it's way wilder, way bigger than we tend to make it.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: I, thank you. I totally agree with all that. Yeah, yeah, like to me, you know, so one of the verses that always gets quoted w- uh, in discussions about scripture like this, and I totally agree by the way that Paul did not think he was writing the Bible. Um, but like, uh, what was it? 2 Timothy, I think. Is it first or 2 Timothy?

Um, chapter three where it says, you know, "All scripture is God-breathed and useful in s- for instruction and training in what, uh, in righteousness," right? so again, Paul didn't write first or 2 Timothy. Keep that in mind, number one. Number two, again, big shock. When you go to look at the Greek, look at that text in the Greek, and the word scripture isn't in that sentence.

It's

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: There was no the... Bible.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: No. [00:36:00] No. Uh, well, well, no, that, the word is graphos, which is the common Greek word for writings. So what it really says is that all of the God-breathed writings are useful for training and instruction in righteousness and goodness and all these things. So then it begs the question, well, which are the God-breathed writings?

again, I would argue, at least for 300 or more years, Christian Church allowed every individual Christian to decide for themselves which writings were God-breathed because, you know, in other words, which ones were God-breathed? Whichever ones were useful for training and instruction in righteousness.

That's what they were, And so for us, again, had there never been a closed canon, um, if that, if that idea had persisted to this day, then it would allow us... And by the way, we'd still do it anyway. but it would, it would give us all the freedom to say like, you know, um, some- some- some writings that I feel are God-breathed might be The Lord of the Rings [00:37:00] um, you know, The Lion, the Witch and the Wor- Wardrobe the, A Christmas Carol or, you know, Interstellar.

You know, I don't, it doesn't, you know what I mean? Or this Alanis Morissette song I listen to in my car on the way home and it just brought me to tears 'cause I felt like God was speaking to me through these lyrics. Like I think it should be open up like that where we're all allowed, we, we allow God's Spirit to speak to us through whatever means, you know, uh, are available if we're open to it.

And ag- I think again, many Christians already do that, you know. Um, I, honestly, I did it when I believed the canon was closed too. You know, I, I still also would, I go, "I feel like God spoke to me this or that," or even just like coffee with a friend, you know, uh, in a coffee shop and, and you're talking about something and then my friend would say something and it would just be like, "Whoa, there it is.

That was it. I feel like God just spoke to me right through that p- that guy." Um, and so anyway, I, th- I, uh, [00:38:00] think that would be better, you know? And so it, it allows, at least where I am now, it allows me that freedom to read the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Mary or the Gospel of Truth or the Gospel of Philip and, um- And, and pull out the parts that I feel like are genuinely inspired, you know?

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Well, okay, and maybe, uh, okay, so maybe if we're losing some of our listeners, they're like, "Wait, whoa, this is, this is like you just opened up everything."

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: I am a heretic, by the way.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Yeah,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: that in the beginning.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: s- I started that at the beginning. so there's... I gave you fair warning.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Thank you

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Uh, but here's where I would say, okay, let me connect the dots then if someone's going, "Well, what, what about, what about..."

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah, yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: If you've ever had the thought watching the sunrise or the sunset and you felt some bigger than you connection with God,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Hmm

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: that is God speaking to you

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: something beyond the text of what we call the Bible, right? So if God can use nature and God can use a song [00:39:00] and God can use a movie and God can use a conversation, like, do we really not think God can use all of creation to, to bring us forward into this beautiful story that we're being invited to?

And so again, I love that you're making these resources more available for people,

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: but I think we do have to almost give people permission to even entertain the idea, right?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah, yeah. And you know, and here's something I do like, um, and thank, yeah, thank you for saying that. It's a good point. Like, something that I do in this quantum series that I'm doing, like, you know, so it's not just like, um, a commentary on Thomas or Mary or, you know, the Gospel of Philip. as I'm going through it, because I have studied the Bible for so long, quite often I'll read something in one of these, you know, Nag Hammadi texts or these lost kind of texts, and I'll read something and I'll go, "Whoa, that's really profound."

And then I'll say, "That sounds like what Paul says over here in Colossians." Or, you know, "It kinda sounds like what Jesus says over here in John." And so I'll, I will connect it [00:40:00] to things that, like ideas and concepts that are actually in the scriptures that we have already accepted. You know what I mean?

And so, um, I think that's also helpful for a lot of readers, to notice, you know, to kinda connect some dots, to say like, "Philip isn't just pulling this out of thin air," right? Or, "Thomas isn't just like, where did he get that from?" It's like, well, actually, I can probably find like three other places in the New Testament where that exact same idea is being expressed in a slightly different way.

Um, really, honestly, that's the kind of the sh- thing about it, too, is like a lot of these concepts, of what I'm calling quantum theology, um, they're, they're not unique these, uh, you know, Nag Hammadi, Gnostic, uh, Apocryphal texts. Um, these are ideas, again, that Jesus says a lot of these things.

Paul says these things. Um, you know, it, it's found in a lot of places in scripture. In fact, the, the fourth book in this quantum series I'm, that's gonna come out, and I'm writing it today, I'm writing it now, um, is gonna be the quantum sayings of the Apostle Paul. [00:41:00] And I'm going through all of the writings of Paul s- go- starting with Acts, um, straight through, through all of the, all the letters of Paul, pulling out all the different ways that Paul expresses some of these exact same ideas

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Okay. so let's, let's dive into that. I wanna... I, I do actually wanna read some quotes from your book.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: We just have been vamping about all of this, uh, the ideas, but let's, let's actually dive into a bit of it.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Okay

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: So I wanna read something that I, I just love the way... And this gets into the quantum connection, so I want you to set that up.

But I wanna to read some of, of what you wrote, 'cause I really do think it's... It puts a great perspective on what you're doing here. You write this: "I really do believe that these simple teachings of our shared divinity and shared humanity are the answer to everything.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Mm-hmm

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: From poverty and tribalism to war and genocide, the reality of our quantum entanglement with the source of all being and the original divine consciousness is the only thing that can truly save our [00:42:00] species from total extinction.

If we can all truly see one another as one humanity, one human race connected to one another by a single quantum consciousness, then none of us could ever again imagine doing harm to another person. If we could look at one another and not see the other, but only see a reflection of ourselves, then violence, hatred, evil, and exploitation would cease.

If we could look at our enemy and see not an enemy, but the very face of God reflected back at us, then we might finally learn to love one another as we are dearly loved."

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Mm-hmm

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: Damn, Keith, that is good stuff right there.

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: It is

jeremy_1_05-26-2026_130407: So dive into, explain what is this quantum aspect of this that you're tying into all of this discussion?

keith-giles_1_05-26-2026_140408: Yeah

exactly. Gosh, and I, I, uh, I totally thank you [00:43:00] for picking that passage. And we didn't talk about this ahead of time, um, so I didn't know you were gonna pick that passage, but thank you for doing that 'cause I really do... I keep saying maybe one day I'm gonna write a book called The Answer to Everything.

I, I do think this is right. I, I really do believe this. so this idea, I guess I should start by saying, uh, on the quantum side of things, right? So qu- how does quantum get pulled into this, right? so I'll, I'll try to summarize it quickly. you know, before quantum physics, um, showed up on the scene, um, Newtonian physics was pretty much, that was the accepted physics that everybody accepted as, as reality, right?

A- and Newtonian physics really pointed to this idea of a, of a physical material universe, that the universe was basically a great machine, and the only things that are real are things that we can, you know, taste and touch and measure. Um, the u- the universe is composed of particles, atoms, molecules, you know, quarks, these kind of things, and, um, and that's it.

And so n- that, that worked for [00:44:00] scientists, right? Um, but then of course philosophers and theologians, would, and mystics would push back against th- this and say, and, and question scientists and say, "Okay, if that's true, how do you explain the human soul? What is the human soul? Where does that come from?"

Right? Or consciousness, just say, uh, consciousness. Where does human consciousness come from? 'Cause consciousness you can't, you can't say it's made of atoms, right? Um, and, and of course science had no answer for that. They ... So we're sort of at an impasse, right? This is the classic s- science versus faith, science versus philosophy kind of thing, right?

Materialism versus, um, this idea of transcendence and consciousness. And that held until quantum physics. Quantum physics turned, um, Newtonian physics on its head. And in a series of, uh, experiments with, initially with photons that behaved one way when you observed them and a different way when you weren't looking, um, it sort of

It was like [00:45:00] suddenly scientists were going, "Wait a minute. Does, does the photon know we're watching? Um, is it, does it have its own consciousness?" Um, and so then the, the, the more they kinda start, start now digging into this and doing more experiments, uh, it, it's just creating more and more questions. Uh, they don't have answers.

They have more and more questions. And, and so this quantum physics now has changed ... W- what they've realized is, it's crazy 'cause the quantum scientists themselves are realizing, that everyone was asking the wrong question. The question is not how does human consciousness arise from matter? The question is how does matter arise from consciousness?

That the ... And again, this is quantum science now. scientists are beginning to believe that what the quantum science is saying is that consciousness is the original force in the universe, okay? So they would say something like the, uh, in [00:46:00] other words- The way we perceive reality, right, with our senses is sort of a Newtonian way of perceiving, right?

W- we perceive objects, right? my microphone is not my glass of wine, and my mouse is not my phone, and, you know, and you are over there and I'm over here. Everything is th- we, we perceive universe through our senses and that, and our senses tend to tell us that, uh, these things are separate.

But at the quantum level, what quantum science is, is understanding is that's an illusion. The reality is there's only one thing. The universe is only one thing, the quantum field. The quantum field is everything, and everything is an expression of one thing, and that's the quantum field. Now, if you're a mystic or a Christian or a theologian, then you take that and you say, "Wow."

Well, what if instead of saying it's the, the quantum field is everything and everything is the quantum field, what if you said, um, Christ is [00:47:00] all and is in all? Which is exactly what Paul says, right? What if, what if you then said something like, you know, to idol-worshiping pagans in Athens, not Christians, idol-worshiping pagans in Athens, "Hey, um, this God you don't know, the, the name of this God, by the way, it's the one we all live and move and have our being in.

That God is in you, and you are in that God. You don't even know it, but this is, this is actual reality," right?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: in Galatians, Paul says something. Again, keep in mind Galatians is one of the first earliest letters we've, we have, and actually Galatians was written, um, before there were any of the gospels, so before Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and John. And so anyway, so one of the earliest Christian documents we have, Paul writes to the church in Galatia, and he tells them something again, which is either... It, it either should be mind-blowing to them, like, "Oh, my gosh. What is he talking about? I've never heard of this in my life," or it was so common to them as a concept they were like, "Well, duh, of course." Right? But either way, uh, it's, it's a pretty fascinating thing. What he says in [00:48:00] Galatians to them, to the church in Galatia, is that this concept that in Christ there is no male or female, or Gentile, slave or free, you know, you can just...

In other words, in Christ, these distinctions, these separations, ways of perceiving you and me and, you know, male and female and all these kind of things, that that's a, that's, uh... that it disappears. And then he ends it by saying, "Why? Because in Christ all are one." So again, that's a quantum concept.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Mm-hmm.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: and so when you notice that, you know, you see quantum physicists saying these things, things that sound very similar to things that Paul and Jesus are saying, in the New Testament, it's like, ah.

And then again, you can also notice mystics from many other faith traditions for thousands of years have been saying also very similar things. Um, this idea that we are, we are one with the source, the divine, the Brahma, the consciousness, whatever you wanna call [00:49:00] it, um, and that we're all connected to one another, right? So that's the connection between quantum the words of Jesus and, and also in these other texts like the Gospel of Philip and the Gospel of Mary and things like that.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: I love that. You know, I, I've been fascinated by Paul's argument in Galatians 3 there, and there's a scholar named Steven Patterson, and he wrote a book called The Forgotten Creed, and it's about that. And he makes the argument in that book that that was the oldest original creed of the church,

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah,

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: and that this predates Paul

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah, that's kinda my point because, because Paul s- just says that, and he doesn't, he doesn't seem that he's making, "Hey everybody, I'm making

a brand new

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: that's gonna blow your mind." He just says it like, "Well yeah, we kinda know

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Like they knew it

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah, exactly. It was an accepted creed already. Yeah

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: So this, this is just super cool to think about how deep this is. Even though the concept may sound new or may sound like this is crazy,

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: mean, this has got its roots and you're [00:50:00] connecting it back to all of that

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah, yeah. And, and, and also, like, you know, this is also why I say it's the answer to everything, um, because I really do... And, you know, you read it in the quote, but I feel like this is... If we could get this as, as a human species, you know, could really grasp this concept of what is being said, uh, this cre- this earliest Christian creed, which again, it's, it's in many other traditions, that we are all one in Christ, right?

Then it is the way we can fulfill Jesus' commands to love our neighbor as ourself because then we... You know what I mean? We don't see

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Right

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: as an other. We, we really do love them the way we love ourselves 'cause we see them that way. And, and, you know, Jesus says in Matthew 25, we- "Whatever you've done to the least of these, you've done it to me."

Well, that makes sense if you get this concept, right? That we are all connected to Christ, that Christ is in everyone, and, and we are all one with Christ and with one another

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. Okay, you write, "The Gospel of Philip is worth our time and attention primarily because it [00:51:00] gives us yet another glimpse into the beliefs and teachings of the Valentinian Christians

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Mm-hmm

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: who were seen as such a threat to the proto-orthodox Christians of the early church." So we've been talking about the quantum kind of a bigger level.

Let's drill down a little bit into the, the Gospel of Philip per- in, in specifically. What do you mean here by this as a threat to this group?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Right. So, uh, I'll be honest. When I, was oblivious to these, this, uh, what a, what is a Valentinian Christian? What's, what is all that? Um, when I first started writing this series, The Quantum Gospel, um, of, Quantum Sayings of Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas. so I started reading other texts, and one of the, one of the books that I read, um, was by Elaine Pagels, I think it's, the title is Beyond Belief. in her book, um, and she's an amazing scholar. Uh, by the way, one of the first people on the team, like translating the Gospel of Thomas, uh, in the early days when they were translating Thomas. So she's, very connected to this stuff. Um, [00:52:00] she talks about the, the, the history of the, all these different Christianities, plural.

There was not one Christian movement, uh, in the earliest days of Christianity. There were multiple sort of groups of people who had slightly different ideas about who Jesus was and what, what it was all about to follow Jesus and all that. but they all would've called themselves Christians, right? And so she talks about these Valentinian Christians, and they were the followers of a guy named Valentinus. Um, and it seems that the things that Valentinus taught and in his community, the community of people around, that have formed around him, um, that those Christians embraced these same kind of ideas. These ideas of, we just talked about, right? From Galatians. Um, that we're all one in Christ, and we're all connected to one another.

And so these were Valentinian Christian ideas. But those ideas were a threat to people like Irenaeus. He seems to be the one that was the most vocally resistant to Valentinus and his ideas. And so, you know, again, [00:53:00] I was oblivious to this. I didn't know this was going on, um, until I, you know, s- started studying this, and Elaine Pagels was very helpful with that.

But then now you could- now- but now I know this, I can see, like, okay, there were sort of these competing, um, groups within early Christianity. They had different ideas. What I find interesting is that, um, from what we can tell, that the animosity was really primarily coming from Irenaeus and the proto-orthodox.

Um, they were the ones that, that treated the Valent- uh, Valentinus and his followers as a threat. The Valentinians did not consider Irenaeus and o- those other proto-orthodox Christians a threat. They considered them brothers and sisters in Christ, you know? Uh, they're like, "We're, we, we just, we all, we believe in the same Jesus.

Just, you know, we have the, emphasize this, and you, you don't." But, you know, they didn't wanna separate. They didn't call them heretics or anything like that. Um, but being aw- aware of that is very helpful, I think, right? So i- it's like this was an early Christian idea, um, that was slowly... [00:54:00] It was, the, the people resisted it, right?

Um, and then those people eventually, we know that the, what I'm, I'm calling the proto-orthodox became the orthodox Christians. and then they, once they sort of won the battle dominance, they eliminated, you know ... This is why, I think this is the reason why, um, the text that we found at Nag Hammadi ended up in a jar buried, you know, in the sand. because these proto-orthodox later on, like under Constantine, Athanasius writes this Easter letter, and he basically says to the churches, "You, you can no longer use these texts." Which means before that letter, they were. And those texts were l- texts like the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Truth.

Um, again, all, pretty much a, um, a checklist for what ends up in, in the jar at Nag Hammadi. So the reason they were suppressed was that there was a group of Christians that didn't like it, and they felt it was a threat

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Which is the way church history always goes.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yes

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: A- and I remember growing up in the church [00:55:00] thinking if something was labeled orthodox, that meant every Christian, you know, historically always agreed that that's ultimately what, you know, what was true, and anything that was heretical was obviously everybody agreed.

Then you study this stuff and you're like, "Oh, this is politics. This is who's got the power, who's got the influence, who's got the sway, who gets to say, 'No, this is what we, you know, agree on.'" And even the councils, like one of the things I love to tell people today is like, "All right, we put all this weight into these creeds," but, like, if we had to make a council today, who, who would you approve to be on the council that gets to write a modern-day creed?

Like, and how many Christians worldwide would agree with whoever got put on that council?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Right. No, that's

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: There would be no unanimous consensus

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Right. No, that's a great point actually, Jeremy, 'cause, like, that's the, that's the exactly right. so it depends on who you ask to form a committee, right? If you asked a progressive Christian to form

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Totally

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: of a council, they'd say, "Well, we need Peter Enns and Brian Zahnd and Brad Jersak and Baxter [00:56:00] Kruger," right?

And p- Paul Young. I mean, of course, that's obvious. But if you ask an evangelical Christian, oh, no, no. It's a completely different list of people, right? And so the, the people you pick to be on those councils is going to, um, determine, really kind of predetermine what they're gonna, what they're gonna do, what they're gonna say, and what they're gonna come out with.

So yeah, forming those councils was very political, yeah

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah. I l- I love it. Which then, you know, leads to what we think of as orthodox and

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Right.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: and all that.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yes, exactly

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: All right, so let's dive in. We've already talked about, uh, intercourse with the divine, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna go... I'm, I'm gonna revisit this a little bit, 'cause you had a quote that I loved.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah, yeah

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: You say, "The Gospel of Philip presents a radically different view of sexuality,

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: arguing that Christ has elevated the nuptial chamber to the status of the Holy of Holies.

For Philip's gospel, the Divine Trinity itself includes a feminine dimension where God is the Father, the Holy Spirit is the mother, and Jesus is the [00:57:00] son. In this view, human sexuality is a reflection of God's oneness, and the physical union of man and woman becomes a sacred connection of divine significance."

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Oh, yeah

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: I love this because in my pastoral, uh, history, people freak out on this stuff, and if you start to refer to God i- in feminine terms at all, people freak out. In fact, in my book, I, I primarily refer to the Holy Spirit in, in the, the f- the female, and I've had people literally write me emails like,

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: "Loved your book.

Why are you talking about God like this?" Like, literally, and I have to, you know, give them an, a, a... I've, like, I've got a saved answer 'cause I get this so often, right? But you're, you're saying that this Gospel of Philip may have something to offer us in this different kind of broader view of, of sexuality.

What, what did you find there? How do you see that?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Right. Well, no, it's exactly what you're talking about, right? And, um, it's funny the pushback you get from Christians, um, when you [00:58:00] use the feminine form for God, when you say she or her. Um, even those, those people will argue back to you like, "Well," you know, they're like, "Oh, are you saying God has a penis?" Oh, no, of course not.

Yeah, but you can't, you're not

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: That's literally part of my response.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Right

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: God does not have a penis.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: That's right. So d- yeah, and so a, a big part of it, I mean, I, I'm gonna answer specifically the question about Philip, but, but just in this topic in general, yeah. It's, um, really interesting. I, I think the biggest problem have a lot of times in talking about God is the, the limitations of our language, right?

So I was just thinking about this the other day, like, um, if you, if you were trying to say something and make a point about God, you would say, "God is like this, and God would do this, um, for..." then now, now that you've already started off, you started, you started off using a sort of a neutral term, God, and then later on in the sentence when you now wanna refer to God again, you're sort of forced to say Him or Her, and I would say, I would argue neither one is accurate, [00:59:00] right? But, but why do we do that? Well, 'cause we don't have any other categories in, you know, talking about a person, If you're gonna keep talking about them in the sen- the same sentence, and you wanna refer to them again, you wouldn't keep using their name over and over again. You're gonna say her or him. Um, and so, you know, it gets, it's confusing and it's difficult, so we're, we're limited by our own language, I think, quite often talking and, and conceiving of God. But, but specifically about the marriage thing, yeah. Philip, the thing about the Gospel of Philip is that it's a v- it's a recurring image throughout the Gospel of Philip.

It's not 100%, it's pretty thick. I mean, it's, it's in there quite a bit, especially like from the middle to the end. Um, it's a recurring metaphor. It keeps going back to this bridal chamber, um, as a metaphor for the way that we as human beings, um, enter into an awareness, an experience of the divine, and the way we have.

Again, it's, it's very much like I was saying, like this intercourse with God. Which again, I think, I think those [01:00:00] Valentinian Christians, um, understood what was, what, what I just talked about. The, what Jesus was saying in the Gospel of John, that this ginosko of God and this ginosko of His Son. Um, and so I think they took that and ran with it.

Like, yes, that's exactly what this is. having this complete, my whole being is, is becoming one, um, in a spiritual sense with, uh, you know, with, with, with Christ, like, or with God. so yeah, they didn't have a problem with that at all, and they, and they loved going back to that imagery over and over again. Um, not in a crude way, but, but in a way that's like quite often they will come to a place where they're like, they'll have to stop and go, "And it's like this bridal chamber,"

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Hmm

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: And, and, and it should be approached, I mean, with a s- there's sort of a reverence to it as well. you know, like whereas we, we have these, um- You know, we, we have these Christian, [01:01:00] you know, like, you know, baptism and the sacraments, right?

You know, and, and marriage and, and, uh, all these kind of things that are, that are sacraments. Um, and so they treat it that way as well. Like to them, the m- this, this idea of entering the bridal chamber and that intimacy that you're having, um, with the human and the divine, it is something sacred. You know?

It is something ineffable. Um, it's much more difficult to, again, describe it and talk about it. Uh, it's much easier to experience it

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah, I love that. Okay, last section I wanna talk about from the book, and then we'll get to the questions I like to ask everybody.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Sure

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: But you have a chapter in the book about wine, and so Keith, I would be remiss not to ask you about wine from your book.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Okay

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: And so you quote... So I got two quotes here. The first quote is from the Gospel of Philip, and then you, I'm gonna quote you quoting that.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Okay

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: So here's what you, you, you, you say from the Gospel of [01:02:00] Philip: "Spiritual love is wine with fragrance. All those who are anointed with this wine rejoice. Those who are nearby also enjoy it, for they benefit from its proximity. But if they depart from it, they lose its perfume and its unction and are left with their natural odors."

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Which is a great idea.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: loaders, yeah

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: so that's from Philip. And then you say in response to that, "In quantum physics, certain properties exist only in relationship arising from proximity, interaction, observation, and entanglement. As long as a particle remains within the influence of a field, it behaves like the rest of the field.

So if we stay near the field of divine love, we maintain the qualities of that divine love," which I thought was such a beautiful idea of this proximity, and then using the bouquet of a wine as the image there. I mean, you had me. I'm hooked. Tell us more about this.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: [01:03:00] No, I mean, um, it, it's such, it, again, the, the, I, I thank you for reading that too. Like, to me, the language in the Gospel of Philip, it is very poetic. It's very beautiful, and I love the way it, we- uses these images, to communicate these concepts. and I thought, the part I thought you were gonna read, I don't remember what chapter that's from, that you read from.

But, um, what I thought, the part I thought you were gonna read, and, and maybe you remember this the book, um, is actually something that I heard, um, um, Dr. Tanner mention once. He talked about how, um, like for example, like these elements of, of bread and wine, right? Which, and which are, which are elements that are part of the sacraments of, like, communion, right?

We think of, like, how we come to God, and we commune with God and with Christ through these elements, and with one another. I mean, the, the communion is something we, we are, we are, we are s- saying two things in communion, right? As we're taking, partaking of the bread and, and the wine, we're saying two things.

One, we are expressing our individual [01:04:00] communion with Christ, and at the same time, our communion with one another, right? It's, it's how we as a, quote unquote, "body of believers," uh, express our solidarity and our, our oneness. Which again, I think is something, again, that the, the Gospel of Philip and the Gospel of Thomas and all these other texts are, are emphasizing, that we have a shared divinity and we have a shared humanity, and, and we're celebrating it. What I found interesting, and this is what, what Tanner, um, brought up, I'd never thought about this before. Um, it's interesting that the, those elements, right, communion, bread and wine. Um, doesn't make wine, and God doesn't make bread. God makes wheat, and then we the wheat God has made, and humans now have to finish that.

We have to finish the sentence. We have to finish the story. We have to complete the process, and then we make the bread. same thing with wine. God doesn't make wine. God makes grapes. And so humans then have to come and take the, [01:05:00] elements provided by God, the divine elements provided, and then we finish it, and we create the wine.

And I just love that. It had

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: to me before. That, that even the elements themselves require, um, collaboration, That God doesn't, God isn't providing all of it. God's providing part of it, we have to participate, and we have to really kind of finish the circle, you know? Um, and I love that.

I just, I love that idea, and I love that image. And again, all that's all through the Gospel of Philip. Uh, it- and all the different ways it's emphasizing our connection with God and our connection with one another

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: So would you say a glass of wine pairs well with your book?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yes, I think so. Well, with the Gospel of Philip for sure, yes

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: There you go. All right, on that theme then, let's, let's transition a little bit. I'll, I'll end with some questions I like to ask, and we get to compare your [01:06:00] answers to other people.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Oh, I get compared now. Okay.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: You get compared.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: of joy.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: well, it's also, it's also a fun podcast feature, so,

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yes.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: you're gonna be a part of this.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Okay, good

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Okay, so if I were to say, "Keith, what's the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life?"

Is there a story that comes to your mind kind of immediately, and can you remember where you were, who you were with, what you were drinking? Why, why does a memory, if you can think of one, why does that pop into your mind when you think about wine as good as it can get?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: That's good. So I first have to ask a, a, a question, uh, before I answer. Um, does champagne count?

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: It does, absolutely

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: then is easy. This is an easy one to answer. Um, yeah, the, the, I think the best one I ever had in my life was on my honeymoon. and Wendy and I, uh, my wife Wendy and I, we got married in, uh, El Paso, Texas. Um, still in college, [01:07:00] and, uh, we had our... We honeymooned in New Mexico. So we went to, stayed at the, the Hilton in La- in, uh, you know, the honeymoon suite, right? And, uh, I didn't know it was gonna come with this. I, I just thought we were getting the suite, right? But we walk in and they've got the whole nine yards, man.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: the champagne and the charcuterie board, it's all this stuff, and it, you know, roses and chocolate, and we're like, "Oh my gosh." Um, and yeah, just being able to sit down with Wendy after this crazy day, um, and, and especially for my wife Wendy, she did, she did everything in our wedding. She did her... She made her dress, she made the flowers, she, uh, made the wedding cake, she made the groom's cake, um, she made her bouquet, and the bouquets for all of, uh, for, for all the, you know, the bridesmaids. Um, and so it was an exhausting weekend, especially for Wendy. And so for all of us just, for, for the two of us just to sit down and open that champagne and celebrate together, that was beautiful.

That was wonderful. Uh, one of the [01:08:00] best, um, just really one of the best memories. Uh, so I'll, I'll never forget that. We saved the cork, of course.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Nice. That's a great story. I lo- I love that. Okay, which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you, and who would you not trust and why?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Oh, man. All right, in church history.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Church history

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Okay, I gotta think about this now. Who would I most trust to pick out a good

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: A bottle of wine. Yep

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Well, I'd have to say Jesus, come on.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Okay.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: he can just make wine out of

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: I was gonna say, is it his own, hi- his own vintage?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yes, his own vintage, right? Just pour a glass of water and turn it around and like, "There you go." Um, yeah, okay, I gotta say Jesus. I think I, I would trust him. Even if he was just in shopping, you know what I mean? I, I, I think I would trust Jesus, of course, to pick out a good one. Um,

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Who do you not trust?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Who do I not trust? So, golly, okay. Um, here's what I'm gonna say, 'cause I kind [01:09:00] of... There's several people in church history I'm not a fan of, but more and more... You know, we were talking about Constantine a minute ago. I'm... I read about this guy, I really did not like this guy. Uh, Eusebius. Eusebius

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: okay

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: um... He was, basically... Was he a bishop? I think he might have been a bishop, but he was, he was pretty much the Christian, um, advisor for Constantine. like, for example, um, the first time Constantine told the story of his quote-unquote conversion where, you know, supposedly, you know, Jesus spoke to him and told him how to win this battle, um, um, it, it's a very different story. So, the story that most people tell, most people are familiar with, um, is a, the story I think the second time he told the story. Um, and it was in a room full of other Christian bishops. And Eusebius, I, I feel like you can, you compare the two stories and it feels like Eusebius coached him to [01:10:00] like, "Hey, tell the story like this," because the way... differences between the first time Constantine told the story and the second time he told the story, um, in the second version of the story, it sounds a whole lot like Paul's story. Um, Paul's conversion story, right? riding on the horse, and it was the heat of the day, and then I, I heard a voice speaking to me, and no one else heard the voice but me, and then it threw me from my horse, and then I saw the, saw this image and, and it spoke to me, and all this stuff. Like, all of that is in the second story, uh, for Constantine. not in the first version of the story. And so I, I feel like I can detect Eusebius sort of coaching him. Like, "Hey, tell it this way, and these Christians are gonna believe you, and they're gonna go along with you." And that's kind of what happened. So I just kinda feel like, yeah, that guy was very complicit as a Christian in helping Constantine, um, sort of wed the church to the state and the empire in very, bad ways. So,

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Became a [01:11:00] preacher story, huh?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah. Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Every preacher knows the longer you tell these stories, the better they get.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: they get. That's

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah. By the, by the 10th time, this thing has taken on a life of its own, and

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yes

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: it's always funny, my family, you know, uh, mainly my wife will be like, "That's not how that happened." And I'm like, "Look, when you have the mic, you can tell your version of the story."

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: That's right. But when

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: This is how I remember the story.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah. That's true, though, by the way. You know what? I'm, I, I did a, a, one of my books, uh, Sola Mysterium, I, I did this whole chapter about memory, then one of the fascinating things about our memories are they're not very reliable. was an experiment done where they took these, like, 15, 20 kids, and they brought them in and put them on camera, and they said, "Just tell us a story, something kind of traumatic, something like that happened to you in the, in the last week or two." Right? And so they would tell that story, and they filmed them. the next year they came back and they said, "Hey, remember that story you told us last time? Tell us the story again." And they do this for, like, I [01:12:00] think five or 10 years. Like, it was a long, long study, and that was all it was, was just have them come in, tell the story. And so a- at the end of the study, um, I think it might've been 10 years, which was a very long time. At the end of the study now, so we're talking about you have kids that came in at 5 and now they're 15, right? And you're like, "Hey, um, tell us the story again." They did. They said, "Hey, would you like to watch the video of when you told it to us the first time?" And then they played them the video, and every one of them was like, "That's not what happened, because I didn't mention this, and I didn't like..."

Yeah. See, you keep adding to it, and you didn't even know that you were doing it, right? They couldn't recognize the story the first time they told it when they saw it 10 years

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: That's amazing

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: that. We all embellish, and the story gets changed every time we tell it. So that we all do that

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Which, not to throw a total curveball into this, but then you think about that concept and you think about the Gospels

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Of course, that's why they don't all agree. That's why

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: and you're like, how many [01:13:00] years went by before this was ever written down and how these memories kind of, you know, morphed in their head?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: We'll just leave that one alone for now. We've got enough.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: pondering though. Yes.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: All right. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Oh, wow Well, lots of things, by the way, lots of things, uh, that I, that I used to believe that I found out later I was wrong about. Um, well, rather than talk about... 'Cause, you know, I've written whole books about lots of doctrines that I used to believe, like hell, and the Second Coming, and the inerrancy of scripture, and, like, all of that, right?

So that's not anything surprising. But I will say, hopefully this, again, this isn't too controversial, but, um, I just noticed something. Like, when I was, uh... You know, I grew up evangelical, Christian, conservative, right? Um, used to have, up until my 20s and 30s, I would randomly have these what I call [01:14:00] demonic dreams. And, like, like, in the dream, you know, like something is coming after me and I'm trying to say the name of Jesus 'cause I believe if I say the name of Jesus I'll, you know, I'll wake up, you know, rebuke the, the, the devil or something. Um, and they were pretty intense experiences like that. Um, and I had them, you know, quite often. you know what's funny is that since I stopped believing that Satan is an actual being, like a person, and I don't believe, like, demons are everywhere and controlling all these kind of things, you know how many times I've had dreams like that?

I've stopped having them, and I think it's because I stopped believing in that, right?

I stopped believing in the, in the literalness of, of that phenomenon. And that's, so that's really interesting to me, you know? 'Cause I didn't, I didn't know that's what was gonna happen, but, but all of a sudden they just went away. I, I haven't had one of those in probably, like, 10 years, so

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Wow, that is interesting

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Little, uh, Angels and Demons hot take for you there on a, as a bonus [01:15:00] What do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in the US today?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Wow. Well, um, think, well, the main issue I think is Christian nationalism. Uh, I think that's, in America, that's, that's the biggest problem, um, is Christian nationalism has just taken over. I think, um, but I, but I think at the same time, like even if Christian nationalism could somehow be defeated and, and, um, we could solve that problem, I think we...

Uh, I think maybe the second problem would be, uh, that we have is, um, I think we are still... This is kind of related to what we were talking about. It's still related to, like Christianity in general, people aren't trained to, uh, experience God for themselves, right? it's what I call worm theology, we are, we are told over and over again that all of our thoughts are evil all the time, there's nothing good in you, and, you know, you can't trust yourself, you can't trust your thoughts. Um, and so what that leads to by default is we d- [01:16:00] well, we d- we distrust ourselves and our own ability to hear God's voice or connect with God. Which I think is the whole point of the New Testament. That's the whole point of the New Covenant, is that everyone will know me, right? From the greatest to the least. That, that, that's the meaning of the New Covenant, is that God's promise is being fulfilled, that every single human being has that connection with God. s- but, but as long as we believe that that isn't true or that we can't trust ourselves, um, usually that's expressed in, in ways like, you know, yeah, don't... The scariest thing possible would be to you, for you to be alone in the room, the same room with the Holy Spirit. Like, oh, that, that's dangerous. trust Pastor Bob. He'll tell you everything you need to know. Like to me, that's most, that's dangerous, Um, and so like getting away from this feeling like we have to have a guru, we have to have a authority or some kind of a leader. Not that we don't learn things from people. There's a lot of people I look up to and I've learned a lot from. Um, but, but I, I haven't sort of offloaded my, my own responsibility hear God's voice and [01:17:00] to be, have a connection with God. You know what I mean? Um, so I think, I think that's a pretty big problem.

I, I think it would be wonderful if, if more and more Christians, um, trusted themselves and trusted their own ability to hear from God and have a connection with God.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: That's great. What's something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Oh, wow. Hmm. Something that's blowing my mind I don't know. I guess, um, the more I look into, you know, the quantum side of things, you know, like, because the q- quantum science is weird. I mean, there's so many things about it that make no sense, right? Um, like this quantum entanglement idea you can have two particles, uh, that are entangled, and it doesn't matter how far apart they are, that whatever happens to one particle happens to the other particle instantly. You know, there's no, no time. not like a signal is passing from one to the other. [01:18:00] It's like they're instantly almost as if they're the same particle, right? That kind of stuff. So the more, the more I see these kind of quantum, phenomenon, it just makes me realize like, man, the, the universe really is a mystery.

There are so many things we don't understand about, about reality and about consciousness and that kind of thing. Um, so I guess just in general, quantum physics is keeping me fascinated, um, and guessing about, okay, well, what does this mean, and what, what's this all about?

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: I mean, that to me is the definition. If you want to have your, your brain hurt,

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: read a little bit of quantum explanation on stuff, and it is, it is that. I mean, I've... And I'm like, I don't, I don't think I could explain it. So, like kudos to you for writing books about it. I don't think I could ever like articulate it back like I understand it enough, 'cause I'm like, it is so weird and so funky, and I guess it's true.

You know, it's like the scientists are saying it's what they're finding. Like, I don't know, but

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: super weird

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: i- it is really fascinating, yeah. Um, [01:19:00] and, and that's even what they'll all say is that, you know, anyone who thinks they understand it is, they don't un- that proves to you that they don't understand it, right?

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: one understands it. Uh, that we have to then... Again, that's good though, 'cause I, I, I kind of think, like, I wish that more theologians were like that, right?

I think the more... Too

many theologians are very confident, but a whole lot of quantum physicists are very humble. They know they don't know. Um,

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Yeah

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: lot of theologians are pretty sure they know. They've g- they've got the answers, right?

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: What's something you're excited about right now?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Oh my gosh. super excited about... I'm, I'm getting ready to move. Uh, my wife and I are moving from El Paso, Texas to Portland, Oregon. Um, so we're, we have a couple of weeks left. is bi- You can, if you can see, f- on the video you can see behind me I've got all these boxes and all the pictures are off the wall, and we're, we're in the process of, uh, packing everything up.

But I'm very, just very excited about that. entering a new season. thinking about what it's gonna be like up there. Um, and I'm starting to write more fiction. So I'm, I'm, uh, I'm publishing a [01:20:00] science fiction novella in August, and then, um, I'm currently writing a novel, a science fiction novel, um, in addition to my non-fiction stuff.

So that's, that's brand new for me and, um, it really is kinda my first love. When I first started writing as a teenager, that's what I did. I wrote fiction. I wrote science fiction stuff. So it's fun to kinda get back into that after a very long time. And, and, uh, and it also keeps me humble 'cause I'm, I'm learning so much about what I don't know about writing fiction.

It's, it's very, very different than writing non-fiction

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Well, I'm, I'm envious that you're gonna move to the promised land, 'cause Portland, Oregon is one of my favorite places on the planet.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You've been

there? Yeah?

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: uh, I, yeah, I lived there for, for

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: you go

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: a number of years and, and, uh, fell in love with it.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Okay. Yeah

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: uh, we have a couple rental homes in wine country in Oregon, so we still get to get out there regularly and, uh, we do different trips.

Like we got a wine and whiskey trip coming up in, uh, I think it's September,

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Okay

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: that we go out there for. And, uh, [01:21:00] yeah,

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Well,

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: I love it

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: if you're ever in Portland, you know, look me up.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Oh, I will be.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah, that'll be fun.

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: That will be fun. Um, okay. Is there anything else? We've covered a lot in this episode.

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: yes, We have,

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: we have touched on a lot, but is there anything we haven't addressed that you're like, "Look, I gotta, I gotta say this before we close the episode or it wouldn't be right"?

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: No, no, I think we covered a whole lot of ground here. Uh, and I, I really appreciate it too. It's a lot of fun. I love, I love talking about this, uh, subject, so thank you for giving me a chance to do that

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: Well, thank you for, uh, opening so many, uh, doors for people with these ideas and these books and the quantum connection. And, uh, it really is fun, I think, for a lot of people to... You know, if you give yourself permission to, to open some new doors, right? And explore God maybe in some, some less traditional ways than you are used to.

And, you know, we need more voices that are doing that, and so thank you for doing that. And thank you for doing two [01:22:00] sessions for one episode. This is a buy one get one free, uh, due to my internet issues. So thank you for your willingness to be flexible and, uh, spend some time with us on this episode

keith-giles_1_05-28-2026_135956: Yeah, thank you. And by the way, it's okay 'cause it gave me an excuse to have a second glass of this wine, so

jeremy_1_05-28-2026_125955: I love it. That's great. Well, hey everybody, hopefully you enjoyed this, and if your brain is hurting a little bit, that's okay. Just lean into it, read some more, check out Keith's book, and, uh, he's written a whole bunch of them. So you have, , lots of options, and, uh, we appreciate you joining us for this episode, and we will see you all on the next one

The Quantum Gospel (with Keith Giles) | Ep. 76

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