One Nation Over God (with Wes Crawford) | Ep. 77

July 15, 2026

Every civilization in history put a temple at its center. America was the first to try to build a nation without one, and Wes Crawford argues that we couldn't stand the empty space, so we made the country itself sacred. The church historian and author of One Nation Over God walks through how the Constitution became scripture, how kneeling during an anthem became sacrilege, and how voting the wrong way became something close to heresy. Wes points toward a different way of loving a country, the kind that lets you critique it from the inside, the way John Lewis did crossing the bridge at Selma. He'll also tell you about the finest glass of wine he ever had, which he never actually drank. If you've felt the pull of American faith and never had words for what was happening, this conversation hands them to you.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/MfrBF0wjEAk

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Links:

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Wes' Instagram account: https://www.instagram.com/wescrawford325/

Episode Transcript

One Nation Over God (with Wes Crawford) | Ep. 77
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[00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we drink good wine and we explore the deeper story of Christianity. Today, we have a conversation with Wes Crawford, who is the vice provost of Abilene Christian University. He's the associate professor of American church history and previously spent more than 20 years as a senior pastor.

He spent his adult life straddling the fence between the church and the academy, and his academic writing is centered on religion in America, especially the relationship between Black and white Christians. His other books are Shattering the Illusion and The Courage in the Sheer Silence. Wes has been married for 29 years to his wife, Kim, who's an elementary school teacher, and they have four kids who are all out of the house now, and he rubs that in at the end of the episode.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was [00:01:00] SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" You gotta drink a lot.

The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment. Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do.

I'm kinda geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had, like, three sips of this wine, and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun.

You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it. We're gonna sit down at a table, [00:02:00] we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus.

Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing. It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine.

That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know. I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday.

If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I... Ooh, I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently, the wine is... Here we are. Queer we are. Beer we are. [00:03:00] No, it's wine, Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be.

I know why you have your guests drink wine. It makes sense now. Yeah. I get it. A little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice, isn't it? Cabernet and pray, yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Well, today's guest wrote a book called One Nation Over God, which either means he has a lot of courage or a really good lawyer. Wes, welcome to the show

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: One may never over a job, but to either means he has a lot of courage Yeah. Thanks. Good to be here. Thanks, Jeremy

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: We're excited to dive in. Before we do, I'm gonna talk about some wine. I am drinking a beauty today. I've got a 2018, this is a Napa Valley Cabernet Sauvignon, and it's got, a lot of really intense fruit notes that I'm enjoying. Not as much [00:04:00] of the tertiary, like, meat and potato stuff that often comes with a Cab.

I'm getting a lot of fruit, and so for me, I'm getting black cherry, black plum. Also a little bit of cedar and vanilla as well, which is nice because I'm not pairing this with a meal Right

now. I have no steak or anything else, so just a glass of wine, and, , it's always nice when it doesn't, knock you off your socks.

So that's what I got, and, I wanna tell you, Wes, I have a connection of the wine today with what we're about to talk about. So I did a little research on this wine. This is a project made by two notable winemakers, Celia Welch and Mike Wolf, and this is basically a side project, as I understand it, that these two did.

So they have their own claims to fame, their own beautiful things, and they said, "Hey, let's, let's join together," and they produced this, which is what can happen when you merge two things together and it produces something beautiful. Today, we're gonna talk [00:05:00] about merging two things together, and it doesn't produce something beautiful when you have church, and you have state, and you have our ideas of what is religion and how does it get wrapped up into that, and what does it mean to be a patriotic citizen.

So here's my setup for us today. My wine is the result of a good pairing, and your book is gonna help us navigate a bad pairing. How's that?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Great segue. That's great.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: All right, Wes, what do you got?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I was telling you, uh, I'm not drinking it today, but I'll tell you the, the wine I brought, uh, Kim Crawford, is only because this is my wife's name. Uh, it's, it's funny, for years, uh, people, anniversaries, uh, just dinner parties, people will show up with this wine in their hands at our house because that's my wife's name, Kim Crawford.

first question, "Do you own this, this company, Kim Crawford?" And I said, "Well, if I did, I wouldn't be working where I am now.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: we would be doing a little bit better off." But anyway, [00:06:00] that's, that's what I have with me. But I'm here at work today, so I'm, I have it, have it next to me, but it's not in a glass.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Well, in, in honor of, of Cabernet and Praise, It's It's accompanying you

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: It's

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Kim Crawford is a, it's a great, uh, it's a great wine. Uh, you can get it at a lot of restaurants, and it pairs well with a lot of food. So shout out to your wife

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah, if you ever need some, you know, we have several bottles in our house just all over the place 'cause, uh, we, could open a store

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Nice. Very cool. Okay, I wanna begin a question that I love to ask each of our guests, and this gives our listeners a l- little bit of a backstory on you, a chance to kind of understand before we dive into your book, who are we, who are we talking to? Who are we listening to? So here's the question I love. If you look at your faith journey, and let's narrow it down to the last 10 years, how has your faith changed in the last 10 years?

'Cause I like to show people that, you know, we don't have these beliefs and then we we lock them in, but we're a work in progress. We're following a, [00:07:00] an, a trajectory. So what does the last 10 years look like for you?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Well, it's been an interesting last 10 years because for most of my adult life, uh, I was in full-time ministry. I was a pastor at a church. Right after I finished seminary, jumped right into the congregation and did that for 20 years. the last 10 years or so, maybe a little bit less, I've been working at a university.

so publicly, in terms of faith formation, it's shifted a little bit. Um, those of you that experienced living life as a full-time minister know that oftentimes that, that consumes you, and, and many, many times we allow that incorrectly to substitute as our faith formation. That becomes our spiritual formation.

Uh, but over the last several years, transitioning out of that into a teaching role at a university, that's changed things, um, even in terms of our spiritual habits. It's, it's a strange thing. I know a lot of people have gone through this their whole life, but it's new for me having to go to a town and find a church.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Hmm.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: never had to do [00:08:00] that. Uh, it was like, you know, I moved to a place and I'm, I'm the pastor of the church and, and things just kind of fall into place that way. But having to go to a place with your family, with children, with your wife, and find a place to locate in a spiritual community, that was a real new experience for me.

And it, it's ... My rhythms have changed. You know, I've gone from writing a sermon every week. You know, I did that for better part of 20 years. You know, every week that was my rhythm. I was getting into the text and reading and, and thinking about it in a way that it communicates to the church, and that was my life.

And so for that suddenly to be taken away to trans-transfer into something else was an altogether different experience. And I, I had to change my spiritual habits, you know? So I'm, I'm r- still reading the text. Obviously, I'm reading it in a different way. I'm not reading it to prepare to teach a class, to prepare to sermon, but it's, it's much more personal and, and that's been different for me and, and it's been, it's been a real time of growth.

Um, I, I would recommend it [00:09:00] to anybody. Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: It is weird when you're the one used to doing the preaching, and then you s- you suddenly try to figure out, "Well, where can I go and just sit and, you know, support it?" And then they say stuff that you're like, "Oh, that's not right at all." And then you

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: be the critic.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah, and you're like, "Oh boy, what do I, what do I do with that?"

And,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah

I tell people, you know, 'cause people often say, like, "I agree with most of the things that, you know, you say in your sermons." And I'm like, "I agree with most of the things that I say in my sermons," right?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: said. Yeah, yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: certainly don't agree with anyone else all the time. Um, I don't even agree with myself all the time.

And so Yeah, it is a funny, funny journey. I imagine... Have, has this been your experience, though? Moving from pastoral work to more of the academy, even the book that you, you just, you know, are publishing, I would imagine it has given you some freedom

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: to either explore topics or to say topics in ways that maybe you didn't have the same latitude in, in church ministry.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah. [00:10:00] You know, I think it's just different. Um, finished graduate school, um, you know, in, in, uh, you know, over 20 years ago, almo- almost 30 years ago now. I'm getting old. And In American religion, thinking about these topics. I remember first being introduced to the concept of American civil religion, which is really what this book is about, all those years ago in graduate school, and it, it really helped connect the dots for me I've grown up in the church, uh, church in America, the church in the American South.

And there are several things which this book talks about that have always puzzled me about the exchange between religion and politics and religion and, and nation. And I n- I never was able to really put it into words or make sense of it academically, but the concept of American civil religion helped me do that and helped me, um, understand the world around me in a little bit.

So when I was preaching, uh, in, in a congregation, I always tried to bring some of these kinds of things into the [00:11:00] church I, I think in what the book really tries to do, it, it's an attempt to take this academic concept that's been studied for, you know, half a century in the academic world. American church historians and sociologists have been writing about American civil religion, but it's not something that's found its way the church.

And so one of my favorite things in congregational ministry being able to have these kinds of conversations with people in the pew, uh, either through a sermon or through a class at church, and just being able to unpack some of the concepts that I talk about in the book. And, and for me, it was fun because in the same way that kind of light bulb went off for me when I first was introduced to these concepts, I'm able to watch that, um, happen in the church.

A- and I know there, there are so many people in our, in our country, especially in... especially right now, we're so passionate about this topic. Um, when politics comes up, when any kinds of [00:12:00] conversation about the nation or, uh, uh, nationalism, patriotism, we're, we're so bothered and passionate about some of these topics right now, and we don't know why.

And, and I really believe that American civil religion helps us understand why. You know, why, why are we so drawn to these topics? Why are we so angry all of the time? And I, I meet so many people in the church and out of the church, they're just angry at one another. And I think understanding where we come from, uh, through this history really helps us understand.

It disarms the conversation a little bit, and I watched that happen in the church, and, and I love communicating that to students as well. Um, and a lot of the people that I teach, I teach mostly graduate classes and people that are ready to enter ministry, and so they're just about to jump into this world of ministry and congregation, and they see, well, this is a, this is a complex time to be jumping into ministry all the things happening, and I think it gives them some [00:13:00] context as well.

So, uh, uh, I, I really love this topic. It's a book I really have been writing in my head for about, uh, 20-plus years, and I'm decided to finally put the words on paper.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: You Finally just wrote it out.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Finally just wrote it out. These are things-- Yeah, my kids, when I, when I wrote the manuscript, I had, uh, a couple of them kind of read through it, and, uh, they said, "You know, we've been hearing this from you for our whole lives."

And so a lot of the things that I've been preaching and teaching, I finally just kinda put down on the, on the page.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah, I get that reaction from my wife whenever I write something, is... Like my latest book, she was like, Yeah. well, I don't get the, what the big deal is." And I'm like, "It's 'cause you hear me talk about this all the time." But I said, "Other people aren't having these conversations."

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: new,

right?

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: to somebody else.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Well, for the rest of us who don't get to grow up in your house, we're grateful that you put these, these ideas into words, and you do a really good job in the book.

And so the, the book is One Nation Over God. You do a really good job [00:14:00] addressing that why. Like, why do we feel This Why? And I, I think some of the things that you say, it was like the way you, you said it was like, "Oh, well, yeah." Like, that is That's why. And so I wanna go right? to the deep end of my

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Sure

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: my favorite quote, that I just thought, This is such a succinct way to say this."

And it wasn't like I've never thought this before, but it's like I've never thought it as clearly as you stated it. And then it was like, well, that just puts that in, in such a good perspective. H- Here's the idea, and I just love this. You say, "The United States was the first major experiment in building a nation without a shared religion.

It was an audacious idea because once you remove religion from the center of public life, you have to replace it with something. You can't just leave the altar empty, so we made America sacred. [00:15:00] Over time, something strange, yet almost inevitable happened. We gave America itself a sacred status, and the country became the new religion."

And again, it was one of those when I read that, I was like, Yeah

that's what it is." Like, that, you're naming what we all feel, is there is almost this other religion, and the religion is the country itself. And we don't often talk about it the way you are saying it here, but this is one of those I was like, you are naming it.

And I can imagine some people would, you know, be very defensive of this idea of this is not, this is not a religion at all, and yet I think you're spot on. Elaborate on that. W- What does it mean that we didn't have a religion, so we created one as a nation? And how does that make us unique compared to what you've seen in the world?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: You know, actually, I, I think people of faith have an advantage in this conversation over those that don't have faith. Uh, I think our understanding of, of God, the nature of God, and God in [00:16:00] community, I think most people of faith would recognize and, and believe that we were created to be in community. We were created to be with each other.

We were not created to be alone off on a desert island somewhere. We were made to be together. And I, I just think that's the way human communities work. And for most of human history, the thing that has united civilizations together has been their religion. And so if, if you go back even into ancient societies, archaeologists will unearth these communities, and they, they start, you know, moving the dirt around, and they find the houses and the marketplace.

What, what is consistent in all of these findings that we've, that we've uncovered that at the center of those civilizations, both symbolically and literally, was the place of worship. It was the temple. It was the church building. And, and what this means is that the, the religion united everybody together, you know.

So that was in the center, and then you may have moved beyond that. There's a marketplace and the residential homes beyond that. But at the center of the [00:17:00] community, at the center of communal life was religion, and that has-- it has been that way for all of human history un-until America arrived. I mean, even into Europe, into the, you know, the fifteenth, sixteenth century, just at the dawn of the Protestant Reformation, that is what united the community together.

Everyone held religion in common. so if you were living in Italy, you know, in the fourteenth century, how did you determine, uh, what your religion was? Well, it wasn't up to you, right? It was, it was the church. It was the Roman Church at that time, and everybody was a part of that. Uh, even into the beginning of the Protestant Reformation, if you lived in Germany, you were a, a Lutheran, as we, we'd come to call it today.

Or if you lived in England, you were a part of the Church of England, and you really didn't have a choice in the matter. Um, were you a Protestant or a Catholic? Well, it depended on the monarch, right? If the king was Protestant, so were you. If the queen happened to be Catholic in that moment, well then, so were you, and you did not have a choice.[00:18:00]

But America started something new, uh, something different in when the founders finally got together and began to talk about what to do about religion. And it's appropriate. Here we are right at the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of when they had these conversations. And by the time they had those conversations in seventeen seventy-six and the years after that, when they were creating the new nation itself, colonists had been here for a long time, they'd settled all over the place.

You know, in Pennsylvania and what is today Pennsylvania and the colonies in the South. And in each of these places, there was incredible religious diversity. mean, if you lived in what came to be the American South, there were a lot of evangelicals, Baptists, Methodists still today. if you were in Pennsylvania, what came to be Pennsylvania, there were Quakers and, and atheists, and there were Muslims, and there were, um, you know, just the whole smorgasbord of religions, and there was incredible diversity.

So by the time they were crafting this [00:19:00] constitution and trying to decide what to do with religion, they really had no choice. I mean, there were, there were some of the founding leaders that wanted to make Christianity, just broadly speaking, not, not Methodist or Catholic or Baptist, but they just wanted to make Christianity the established religion.

And that would be the thing that we all held in common. by that time, it was too late. There was already so much incredible religious diversity. You can't, you know, as they say, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube by that time. And so what they did is they advocated for full religious liberty.

And we've heard that phrase our, our whole lives, and we take it for granted, but we, we forget just how novel that was. had never been a place where there was full religious liberty, where you had the ability to choose practice your faith this way or that way or to not practice faith at all. Uh, this was completely different.

But one of the implications of that if religion is not going to unite us, well, then what will? [00:20:00] Um, there was a philosopher, sociologist, Émile Durkheim. I'm sure a lot of people have heard the name before, but one of the things he talked about was the function of religion in the world. And if you ask somebody, you know, what, what is religion for?

Well, people of faith may answer that one way, to be close to God, all, all these kinds of things. Yes, and one of the primary functions of religion is it coheres us together. It, it forms people into a civilization. It provides a common language and common habits and rituals and calendars, and we didn't have that.

It was the first time in human history that we know of where a civilization could not unite around their faith. And so what we've done over time, this is what the book addresses a lot, is a- as you just mentioned, we began to attach sacred significance and religious significance the way in which we view our country, the way we view our nation.

And there are some positive things about that. I mean, it has functioned to unite us [00:21:00] together as Americans. It has given us common language. But, but over time it is... I, I think people of faith, uh, would say it's gone too far sometimes. It's, it's, it's moved into the realm of idolatry, and we can see that certainly in our own time.

But, but that's-- I, I think my response there is that lacking any sort of established religion, we had to have something to unite us as a community, as a civilization, and so we've, we've kind of made America our religion over time

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: So it makes me wonder, as you look at Europe today, and it's not that way, right? It's not, "Well, we are this religion 'cause the king is,"

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: have a post-Christian reality. Do you think that they will move more toward what we have in America, where the actual country itself becomes sacred?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: I don't know. It's, it's interesting. In some ways, has blazed the trail in, in, in some ways. [00:22:00] So once America offered freedom of religion, certainly seen that carry over not only to Europe, but, but a vast part of the world, um, that has happened. other ways, we are seeing, uh, those that study religion, we're seeing that we are following their trajectory.

You know, as Europe has become in a post-Christian, as we would say, and those massive cathedrals that are all over, beautiful cathedrals all across Europe that are largely empty on Sunday morning.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: they're good to take tours in now.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: great to take tours, and they're beautiful stained glass windows, right? But you know what? We have some of those here too in America.

And so there are some that are prognosticating. You know, here we are, you know, maybe 30, 40 years away from that, maybe less. Uh, some of these massive cathedrals that we have, um, maybe more toward the, the northeast part of our country, uh, they're more and more largely empty. And so we may be following that path as well

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: It does make me wonder as I was, you know, considering the implications of, [00:23:00] of the book, if we ha- if there's just that gap that we have to find something, uh, how many other things can fill it, Right

So if it's not gonna be a religion, if it's not gonna be the country, like, what other, you know, what other options do we have?

'Cause it does seem like we need something to rally us together

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah. And we've done this in all sorts of ways. So the book talks about American civil religion, but there's, there's a subcategory that's been studied for a long time. It's Southern civil religion. so as somebody who lives in Texas and has spent most of my life in the American South, I've seen this play out as well.

so just to kind of briefly touch on this, one of the ways in which we have, uh, made America sacred we've attached religious significance to various kinds of things. So for example, religions that have stay-- have had staying power, that have endured over generations and gene-generations, they have certain things in common.

there are some religions that are here today, gone tomorrow, [00:24:00] but there are some, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, that have s-stood the test of time, and they've endured for millennia And all of them have these things in common. They all have a, a sacred text. have sacred rituals. They have a sacred calendar.

They have sacred people. They have sacred symbols, and these things have united them. So I think in terms of Christianity, we have, we have the, we have the Bible. We have a sacred symbol with the cross. We have sacred people, Paul, Jesus, obviously. We have a sacred calendar, Easter, Christmas. We have all these sacred rituals, uh, you know, baptism, communion, and religion has functioned that way.

Those things have cohered religious people for generations and generations. we've attached the same things to America. So we have a sacred book in America, Constitution. And people say, "Well, you know, it's not sacred. It's important, but it's not sacred." I would, I would beg to [00:25:00] differ. You know, there

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: It's not being treated sacred at the moment, but yes

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: right.

Sorry. Yeah. But it's still, right? We have, we have congressmen and women in the Capitol that are exegeting this text every day and parsing it, pulling it apart. Uh, we're in the midst here in the summer where all the Supreme Court decisions come down, and they're analyzing, you know, trying to base this on, on this interpretation or that interpretation of the Constitution.

It's, it's sacred in that sense. Uh, we have sacred rituals. I, I think of, you know, the firestorm just a few years ago when Colin Kaepernick decided to kneel, uh, during the national anthem. And you say, "Well, that's not a sacred moment." I, I disagree. Uh, think of the passion and the, the anger that some people had at that act.

There were people boycotting the NFL. I mean, if you boycott the NFL in America, that's, that's big stuff. Um, so you know, we, we have rituals. We have, we have symbols. We have calendar. All of those kinds of things we've, we've made sacred, but we've done it in other places too. So in the American South, we've done that, uh, [00:26:00] for even the Confederacy.

There's a whole school of literature on the religion of the Lost Cause and the way we have in a, in a sense kinda deified people like Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson. And, and we've... You know, in, in the Deep South, they're still celebrating con-- the Confederate holidays, you know, the birthdays of Robert E.

Lee and, and... It's, it's amazing. I grew up in southern Louisiana for a lot of my, uh, growing up years around New Orleans. We, we got off school for everything, which was great as a kid, but as, as I've gotten older, I realized like, "What, what were we doing?" We're still celebrating these things from the Confederacy.

Um, you know, we don't have to go into all the things about the Confederate flag and all the symbolism that's involved there. But in addition to this American civil religion Southerners have found a way to make sacred these symbols and rituals and people, and I think we've maybe have done that throughout human history.

We need [00:27:00] something to unite us together, I think we're in a, in the middle of a, of a transitional moment right now. Um, I don't think America, patriotism, these kinds of... Is uniting us as it once did, or at least you could say there are at least two very different versions of what America is and is all about.

And so I, I think we are in a critical moment in history, and I, I think the jury is still out on where this lands. But those things that have united us for the better part of two hundred and fifty years are not necessarily doing that in this present moment

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah. that's a great point. And as I was reflecting on this idea, y- y- you, you navigate the line really well throughout the book of, "Hey, I'm not saying, I'm not saying this, but I am..."

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: like you kinda just like, you, you kinda weave back and forth of I could see, I could see people on both ends of the spectrum going, "Whoa," uh, okay.

You know, like kinda getting ramped up, and then you, you bring them back down, like, all [00:28:00] Right

So here's a question I, I just feel like I wanna push on a little bit, 'cause this is where I am like, Okay, but, but here's where I get a little bit stuck. If the country has become a religion unto itself, which, uh, I think you make a compelling argument, as a Christian then, how can we make the argument that it is healthy for us to participate in two religions?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I, I have very good friends, uh, in ministry and out of ministry that for years, I mean, they don't, they don't say the Pledge of Allegiance. You know, they don't, um... You know, there, there are some troubling lines in the Pledge of Allegiance, namely the first one, pledge allegiance to the flag," and our allegiance should be only to God.

So I get that. I understand that The things that I'm drawn to about, uh, this idea of patriotism, you know, we're about to celebrate the Fourth of July, all those things. I, I do think there are some positive aspects of, of, of [00:29:00] allowing us to hold some things in common, um, giving us common language. Almost like, okay, so I'm a huge sports fan.

I, I was born in, in Arkansas, and so this, this has been a tough, this has been a tough decade, but I'm an Arkansas Razorback fan. And when I go to those games in Northwest Arkansas, here are these people that, that have all these things that are not in common, but they have this thing in common, and they come to the stadium, and they cheer together, and there's something about that commonality that I think is good.

It, it builds... it kinda builds civilizations. It, it builds relationship in some ways. A-and I think in many ways our patriotism has the ability to do that, in positive ways. I do think, and I would agree with you, I, I think it can very easily move into idolatry. Uh, and so I talk about this in the book a little bit.

I think in terms of flags, you know, one of the things that's troubling, it's always been [00:30:00] troubling to me, as I drive past a lot of, I would say kind of evangelical churches in my area or private Christian schools, and they have, you know, these flags outside on the flagpole. Uh, and the top flag, right? Is this American flag, and underneath that is this Christian flag which is, which is a strange concept unto itself.

there's a lot of symbolism there and, and what they're saying in a sense is, you know, we're Americans first, and we're Christians second. The illustration that I use in this book that probably early on in my life, the, the event that caused me to begin thinking along these lines more than anything else, traveling to Branson, Missouri, with my family.

Uh, my parents lived there. They had a house there. My grandparents lived up there for, for a long time, and they would take us as kids. And so if you've ever been to Branson, uh, it's, it's an experience and it's changed over the years , but basically it's this, small community. I think [00:31:00] the population's, you know, ten thousand people today.

But on any given summer, there are millions of people that make their way to this tiny little town in the middle of the Ozarks. it's, it's made its name because it had these little theaters with variety shows. Many of them are populated by multigenerational families. They sing together and all the things.

And so people go to these shows at night, and I remember as a kid going to these shows and, and it began to dawn on me, probably m-my teenage years, aspect of these shows that I was troubled by and it is this. That all of the shows, no matter which one you're going up, and there are dozens and dozens and dozens of these shows, and they all ended the same way, no matter what show it is.

The second to last song In every show is a religious song. It's a gospel song. It's, you know, "Amazing Grace," uh, "How Great Thou Art," whatever it is. And it's a pretty religious crowd in that space, and so they're, they're reverent. They appreciate the song. Uh, they, they clap really [00:32:00] loud. Uh, they, they love the song.

But then the last song in all of these shows, no matter what show it is, is some sort of patriotic song. the national anthem. It's "God Bless the USA." uh, "Proud to be an American," you know, Lee Greenwood. And, and when they sing the songs, when they perform the song, it is-- there's never been an exception to this in my presence, is that the audience stands And I remember, you know, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old, uh, attending those shows, and it began to dawn on me one that was being raised in a Christian home, very religious family, very religious parents, um, and I began to wonder, so why, why are they standing for this national anthem, but they're not standing for Amazing Grace?

what, what's going on here? And that, that was really the first time in my life where I began to wrestle with this concept. And there is a reverence with which people offer [00:33:00] their pride in their country that I think supersedes, uh, their allegiance to God. And I think that's a fine line, and I, and I think we're living in a time where it's very evident that many people have crossed it.

You know, there are some things happening in our time, in our world, and being condoned by Christian people that are appalling, absolutely appalling. And I think most generations of Christians the past and around the world in the present recognize just how appalling they are. But the fact that Christian people can justify that and the ways in which they attempt to justify that are, are scary, um, and frustrating sad

Uh, I think a lot of us, uh, that have kind of recognized some of these things over the last few years, uh, have spent some time, uh, depression and frustration, uh, because it's become very apparent. And that's why I think the book is so [00:34:00] timely. it, it helps us see how we've arrived at this point where our faith in America is more important to us than our faith in God.

our allegiance to America or a specific political party is much stronger than our allegiance to the ethics of Jesus, and I think that's very apparent, in our world right now

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: And I think what your book does a good job of is naming it, because I think... I could imagine a lot of people going, "No, no, no, no. I don't do that. I don't believe that." You know? But in, in function they do, Right. In practice they do. And when you, when you notice their behavior, when you notice the things that they say, the things that they do, you go, "You Absolutely

do."

But there's this delusion that we have of, "No, that's, that's separate." And so I do think that would be probably the uncomfortable part for someone reading your book is the... almost the, the mirror that you hold to them of like, "No, this is a religion to you, and this might [00:35:00] be your primary re- religion," even though in your head it's not.

I, I think that's helpful because I like your sports analogy, and I think that's a great way to offer an alternative to that. Because I'm a diehard Yankees fan,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: which means if I meet someone who's a Red Sox fan, we immediately have banter. I'm going to tease them. I have j- I have, like, a list of jokes I say.

You know, like, we're immediately built in 'cause there's a rivalry there. But at no point would that supersede the way I'm going to treat them as a Christian. And for me, with sports, and probably most people, you go, Yeah. that's easier to do," although I have met some crazy sports diehards that maybe, maybe are in the same category of it's...

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: is their religion. But I think for most of us, we can say, "No, that, that's something separate." So I can be drawn together by other Yankee fans, I can have rivalries of competing fans, but at this... at the end of the day, none of that [00:36:00] supersedes, "Hey, this is n- this is just for fun. This is not my religion."

I think what you're, you're pointing out and what this conversation gets into is we, we might say one thing, but our actions are, are showing this is a religion, and in a lot of cases, it's the top religion. And you have so many ways, uh, of explaining it. You have a, a great quote that I think totally illustrates this.

You say, "It's no wonder that politics feels like a religion. We've wrapped our ideologies in sacred cloth. The American flag is often displayed alongside or above," as you just mentioned, "the Christian flag in some sanctuaries. The Constitution is quoted in sermons. The cross and the ballot box have fused, and when that happens, disagreement feels like betrayal or even heresy."

And I was like, Yes. And then you say this: "When someone votes differently, it's not just a political choice, it's a spiritual [00:37:00] threat." And that, now you're taking it a layer down of when this becomes religion and then you disagree with me, now we have not just a political difference, we have a spiritual difference.

So talk about that. How does that creep in from now that I've made this my religion to now you are a spiritual threat to me because you're not honoring the country the way I am?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Right? Because we've elevated these principles, uh, to sacred status. personalities, political ideology. What was fascinating to me, and something that's hasn't been studied as much, but there, there's a guy named Robert Wuthnow wrote a book many, many years ago called The Restructuring of American Religion.

I remember reading it in graduate school. he, he makes a compelling argument, I mean, like 30 years ago, maybe longer, when he wrote this book, and talks about the impact of region. And he, he makes the, the comment there that region is one of the strongest forces [00:38:00] in terms of our, our loyalty i-in our religion.

the, the illustration he uses, he said, "If you take a Southern Baptist and a Southern Methodist, and you compare them to a Northern Baptist and a Northern Methodist," he said, "The Northern Baptists and Northern Methodists are gonna have more in common theologically than the Southern Methodists and Northern Methodists."

That region is a strong, strong impact. And I bring that up because I think that it influences our politics. We, we see that in politics, the red states, the blue states. What's fascinating to me, I come from a, a denomination that is a free church tradition. We don't have any sort of denominational headquarters, and so there's incredible diversity among our different congregations.

And so I live in the American South, and I know in a lot of congregations that I've worshiped in and I've been a part of in these red states, there are Christian people, leaders in these, in these congregations that couldn't fathom, right? They couldn't [00:39:00] fathom the possibility that you could be a Christian and a Democrat.

ju- they just can't... H-how can anybody be a, be a Democrat and, and still be a Christian? Now, what's fascinating to me is if I were to go to some congregations that I know of my same tribe up in New York City, which I know of, they would make it from the other len- they would say, "How in the world could you be a Christian and be a Republican?"

And I think it's because we've attached significance to these principles, be it abortion or immigration or gun control. We- we've read it through a specific lens, and we've been surrounded by people that we've gone to church with, that we've voted with, all of those kinds of things that have reinforced the, that ideology to us.

And so, you know, if our, if our Christian brothers and sisters in our congregation all agree, you know, that it is this way, and that's been reinforced over and over and over again, sometimes in the, in the foyer, sometimes in the pulpit, then we begin to [00:40:00] merge those things together, and it's hard for us to pull them apart.

It's hard for us to know where our faith ends and where our, our nationalism begins. And, and I wanna be careful here too. I'm, I'm not one of those that says you need to keep politics out of religion, because I think that's ridiculous. Um, I think everything is, I think everything is religious. I think if we believe that God is sovereign, well, then God has something to say about all of these things.

You can't just let the politicians have the final word on these things. But we can quit reading them and talking about them through a political lens start looking at them theologically 'cause I do think God has something to say about immigration. I do think God has something to say about poverty and homelessness and life, all of those kinds of things.

I think we need to read through that lens and, and quit allowing politicians to define those conversations for us. But I think when we do, that's when it gets dangerous. And, and I think that's what we've done. [00:41:00] what we've done for a long time in America is we've tried to take these congregations out of the church and set them aside, and, and I think that's, you get into some really dangerous territory.

A lot, a lot of my research American civil religion has centered on race in America. I've done a lot of reading and writing and teaching on the American civil rights movement. And what's fascinating to me looking at that era is one of the things that set Martin Luther King Jr. apart from his peers

I mean, there, there were other very dynamic speakers. There were other people that were, you know, protesting against segregation. But what he did is that he began to frame segregation as a moral issue, uh, he and the teachers that he had. And so it's not just a political issue. It's not just a social issue.

It's, it's a moral issue. And so if segregation is sin, well, then you have to deal with it. You can't, you can't adopt a gradualistic, you know, posture. You have to deal with it now. It's the same way if we caught somebody in [00:42:00] adultery, we wouldn't say, "Well, you know, when you get around to it, when, when time is right, you know, you should probably go back to your spouse and go back to your family."

No. I mean, if this is sin, this is against God's will, then, then we wanna address it immediately And, and I think the same is true with all the things that we're dealing with now . I think these are, these are near to the heart of God, some of these. And it, and again, it, it pains me, it saddens me a lot of Christians, at least where I live, are allowing politicians to define these conversations when this, this is the business of God, I think

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Well, a great example to me as I'm listening to you talk is if a church attempts to have a conversation about ICE and what ICE agents are doing.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: sure

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: I remember, you know, a month or two ago when th- this was all the news, and we're watching what's happening in Minnesota, and, you know, I remember watching Alex Pretty be murdered on a Saturday, and I'm finalizing my sermon for Sunday.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: [00:43:00] Yeah,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: And, you know, I just have this heaviness of what on earth would you say and not address what we're all collectively watching. And so I did, you know, I just said, "Hey, we're gonna talk about this. We're gonna talk about what we're doing as a country and what we're normalizing." And it was the reaction that you just said of, you know, "How dare you bring politics into the church?"

And I wanted to say the exact opposite. How dare you remove theology from politics?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Right

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: dare you say that our government has the Right to end someone's life, and we're not gonna talk about the value system behind that? Like, to, to say that these people get to be here, and these people don't, and these people get to be treated this way and these people...

And you're gonna tell me theology's not involved? And so that's where, to me, it's like, it

is this other reaction of, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're not allowed to do that in the church. And what... You're absolutely Right. We have let politicians run the theology of our [00:44:00] country, and you're starting to see this wild, wild theology emerge behind this current administration because so many in the church have wiped their hands clean of it and said, "We don't get to speak into that."

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Right. What's fascinating to me, just as a historian, is, you know, we, we hear the, the phrase history repeats itself, and, um, you see that so clearly with this issue because those same criticisms that were levied at those that were brave enough to speak out during the 1950s and '60s in the Civil Rights Movement the same things that are being said now.

You know, you can't bring politics in the church. It's a social issue. That's socialism. That's communism. All... I mean, it-- nothing's new under the sun. We're-- It's the same tactics that we've used generation after generation after generation, and it's, it's just so troubling. You know, again, for most of my life, I studied some of this with the Civil Rights Movement, and I ca- almost kind of reached a point where I thought, "Oh, okay, you know, we're, [00:45:00] we're, past that.

I can't believe what they were doing back in the 1940s and

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: If only it were that true

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: and here we are, you know. It's the same rhetoric that's come up again. It's, it's mind-boggling to see here we are again saying the same things, offering the same excuses. Uh, and it's just, again, I, I think the overwhelming emotion I have is just sadness, uh, for the church right now.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: I agree. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring us back up a little bit. I'm gonna... I have a couple questions to,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Move toward hope.

Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: us sorta, uh... So this is not a downer of an episode. People are like, "I need another bottle. This, this thing's heavy."

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Right. Yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Okay. In chapter five, you profile 10 Americans who you say love the country while also refusing to worship it, and I love that you give practical examples to ignite our imagination.

I'm curious for you, is there one of the 10 that just stands out to you, has a more personal effect that you find yourself thinking about this person a lot?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: You know, [00:46:00] I, I've been drawn to all of those stories over the years, as I said, I've been writing this book for a long time in my head and in the classroom. But maybe it's just because of the conversation you and I just had about politics. I, I have so often in recent years thought about the exchange that John McCain had when he was running for president.

He was in a town hall meeting, and there was a woman in the crowd who went after Barack Obama. And she said, you know, like, "I, I don't trust him." You know, "He's an Arab," or something else. And she was just kind of going on a rant, as we hear in our, in our own time. And I, I was so drawn to the way that John McCain responded to her.

If you remember, a lot of people have seen the video. He, you know, grabs the microphone back and he says, "No, ma'am." He said,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: he shakes his head a lot.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: no, "

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Absolutely."

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: no

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: said, "I know Barack Obama and he's a good man. Uh, we happen to disagree about some fundamental things with policy." And I can't [00:47:00] remember his exact language there, but that was so powerful to me, and it's even more powerful now to see this politician on the national stage disagree with someone In a healthy way, we just don't see that right now.

But so here is someone that was-- he was, he was able to critique what was happening. You know, I think of another one, John Lewis, right? A hero of the Civil Rights Movement, who able to critique segregation. He was one of the principal faces of the Civil Rights Movement. There on, on Sel- in Selma, crossing the bridge, and is beaten to the point of death, and he was right in the middle of those things critiquing this injustice that he saw in America.

And still, he spent the rest of his life as a, as a congressman the heart of American democracy, loving this country. He critiqued it because he loved this place and loved the people and loved the [00:48:00] ideas have defined, these principles that have, have seemingly defined America: freedom and liberty and justice.

there have been a lot of people that have written on this in recent years, even drawing on the s- you know, the speech of Abraham Lincoln of our better angels. You know, and there, there's something good about those principles, and I think there are people like John McCain or I even mentioned Bruce Springsteen, you know, in, in some of his songs and some of his activism in recent years.

These people that loved America, but they spent a lot of their life critiquing it, and I think we have to become comfortable with that. just because you're critiquing an idea not mean that, you know, you deserve to be deported, you know, or kicked out of the country or silenced. Uh, because our history, you know, some of the better parts of our history have come when our leaders and they've been willing to say things that were hard to say,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Well, [00:49:00] and I think the beauty

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: now

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: of a good critique is when an insider does it

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Absolutely

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: someone says, "I am one," right? "I am an American. I am a citizen of the United States, and let me tell you what I think we're getting wrong," right? Where you're speaking on behalf of the whole, and this is what I encourage people a lot.

A lot of, a, a lot of my pastor friends and other Christians don't like when I critique the church, but I have to remind them, I'm critiquing as one, Right

Like, I'm not critiquing from the outside. I'm critiquing from within, saying, "We've gotta do better, and we have to own our shortcomings and our failures, and we have to look, you know, soberly at this."

And it's the same with our country, and you're absolutely

Right And I'm even noticing with this presidency, like, that, that's becoming more and more of a loyalty pledge where

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: you, you don't get to speak ill of anything 'cause then that's immediately unpatriotic and, you know, now you're against it. It's like, no, we've, we've fundamentally [00:50:00] lost what it means to love something and critique it from within

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Sure. Yeah, this has become a cardinal sin, right? To disagree with a policy or to speak against or to, you know, publicly have any sort-- hint of disloyalty. that's, that's dangerous when we get there. You know, I saw another interview just a, a couple of weeks ago. I was reminded, I think it was Barack Obama, where he was...

It was either Barack Obama or maybe George W. Bush, where he was doing an interview with, uh, uh, somebody from the media, and they prefaced the conversation by saying, "Hey, I'm gonna ask you some hard questions." And his response was, "Well, I hope so. your job." You know? And the media's job is to ask us hard questions and to hold us accountable.

And we have a history, a long history in our country of allowing that to happen in a healthy way, and I think that sharpens us, I think that's missing. And, and I'm glad you said that about the church. I feel the same way. I mean, the, the church has, has nurtured me in the faith. I, I would, I would not be where I am if not for the church.

I found [00:51:00] God in the church, and so many of my closest friends, uh, uh, been in the church, and it's shaped me in profound ways. But when the church is heading in the wrong direction , because we love the church so much, we cannot sit on the sidelines and just let that happen. I, I don't think, I don't think that would please God in the slightest.

I, I think those of us that love the church need to be critical when we need to be critical, that church is so important

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: And I, Yeah, and I, I mean, we could do a whole episode just on this one concept 'cause I'm so, I'm so passionate about it because I feel like if you are a white person, you should be critical of white people on behalf of others. If you are straight, you should be critical of straight people on behalf of others.

If you... I mean, go down all the privileges that I have and go, "I should be critical of my tribe, my group, uh, that shares that with me for the benefit of [00:52:00] everybody," Right. And if not us, you know, as a male, I should be critical of other men for the benefit of women. Like, if not us, like, then what are we waiting for?

Waiting for some outsider, some other person that we're... We think we're gonna receive that well, Right. Like, you're not one of us, so, but we'll listen to you.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: absurd reality.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah, it

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: just abdicating the voice completely, and so I just love this idea of... I lo- I love just your notion of this is what it means to do it well, is you, you can love it, but you're critical of it.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: I wanna, I wanna ask you a question that you ask in the book, and it's a phenomenal question, and so we're gonna get your answer to it. You say this: "What does it mean to love America as a... Christian?" So Wes, what do you think it means?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah. I, I would think in its, in its most healthy way, I would say I love that, you know, here toward the end of this week that I'll be able to [00:53:00] join with my neighbors, uh, who I hold this thing in common with, you know, and we can celebrate the fact that we are, we are a part of this place, and we enjoy the freedoms that we enjoy and, and, and all of those things.

I think that there's that and having that common language and that common history and that common, those, those common rituals, those... All those things I think are important. I think binding us together as a civilization, that, that's wonderful. But that can't supersede my identity as a follower of Christ.

know, and I think of it this way, uh, the World Cup is on right now. I'm not a soccer fan. I'm trying to be a soccer fan. I'm trying

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Me too.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: in this. I'm trying to learn the rules and watch

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: so confused. by what they're doing half the time.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Why is the score one to nothing? This is m- this is my yelling at the TV in, in the afternoons.

So I'm cheering for America, right? I'm, I'm cheering for America. I want America to win. But I've also come, you know, [00:54:00] really become fond of some of these other countries and their stories, right? I was, I was watching a match the other day of, of these other countries that I know nothing about, right? But I hear, "Well, this is their first time, you know, in the tournament, and they've never made it this far," and I'm pulling for those people.

And I think in some ways it's kinda like that. I mean, I, I'm, I'm proud to live where I live and to be born where I was born. I wanna, I wanna acknowledge, just as you said, that affords me certain privileges that I need to acknowledge. And because of those privileges, I need to speak up in certain times and places, uh, because in, in many cases I hold a, a kind of power, and I need to use that for good.

And more than an American, I'm a human. Uh, I'm a part of the human race. And so I should care deeply about what's happening right now the Ukraine, right? I mean, I'm not a Ukrainian citizen. [00:55:00] I'm not an Iranian citizen. Uh, and these things that are happening in other parts of the world, uh, we need to care about as human people, because more than an American, we're, we're human and, and we're Christian people, and that needs to define, ultimately, that needs to define all of our engagements with the world and with those around us.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: And I think that's what things like the World Cup,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah, they're

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: if you let it, it reminds you

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yes. The,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: we're all in this together.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: And I, I'll tell you what, I, I'm, I've s- I'm so with you. I've been watching it. I don't understand it. I, I don't... You know, I have very little understanding. I'm a baseball guy. But I will say I, I was following early on, uh, I think it was Cape Verde versus Spain, and The, 40-year-old goalie that was shutting down this juggernaut that is this, the Spain's team, and I was like, How do you not love this?

Like, how do you not l-

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: that guy?

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: This 40-year-old goalie who's now gonna be this international [00:56:00] mega star,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: I was like, from a country that most of us have no idea where this is, and, you know, the guy's too old to be doing what he's doing, and he's shutting down Spain. Like, I just thought, so cool. But that's our humanity we're celebrating.

That's not the, the country I'm a part of or the, the jersey that I we- It's, it's something bigger than that. And I think the Olympics, the World Cup, these are invitations, if we let them, to be reminders of we are all in this together. Like, we can cheer, but, like, ultimately, there are bigger stories than did...

Like, I would rather a phenomenal story than the USA won. You know what I mean? Like, I would rather go, "Wow, look at humanity. Look at these guys," or, like, "Let's celebrate," than, "Did my team win?"

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: And you, I think you can do that and root for your team.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Sure

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: space, and I think this is what your book gets to.

So I think this is gonna be so helpful for a lot of people, uh, if they [00:57:00] can get through some of maybe the, the uncomfortable parts of what you're, you're pointing out. But what I wanna do now with the remaining time we have left, I wanna ask you some questions I like to ask each of our guests, and we get to compare your answers to everybody else and, uh, and see where you take this.

So couple wine ones to begin.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: If I were to ask you, Wes, what's the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life, is there a story that comes to your mind? And I'd love to know whatever details you have. Was it, was it Kim Crawford? Hopefully it was with Kim Crawford. Uh, maybe, maybe not. Uh, what, what do you remember?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: yeah. I'll tell you, it, it was actually a glass of wine I didn't drink. And let me tell you what happened.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Wow, okay

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: I lived for a while in Nashville, Tennessee. went to Vanderbilt in graduate school, and while we were there, my son was born. One of my sons was born. And I remember the night, uh, we'd been to the hospital all day, um, Luke is born.

We're a couple of blocks from the hospital. My parents are in town, and they take me to dinner that night to Ruth Chris Steakhouse.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Oh, [00:58:00] nice

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: of blocks from the hospital, right near next to Vanderbilt. so we're there, it's packed that night. We're waiting in line. And as often was the case when we were in Nashville, we ran into this, like, a famous person.

So I'm sitting there in line with Clint Black, country singer, uh, and his wife, um, Melissa Hartman, Lisa, Lisa Hartman Black, something like that. I can't remember now. It's been years ago. She was well known as well at that time. He's this famous country singer at that time. So we start talking, we're having this conversation in line, I tell him, you know, "I'm here.

We're celebrating the birth of my son, who was just born," and, you know, "I'm a student over here." And we got to talking for a while. and then he got his table, then we got our table. A little while later, sitting there with my parents. Now you have to keep in mind, this is an important part of the story, that I come from a really conservative Christian household, kinda teetotaler, uh, Southern Christian, and my parents are very much like no alcohol.

Like none. You know? Just like it's not allowed in the house. It's n- you can't talk [00:59:00] about it. All, all those kinds. So that's, that's the world I grew up in, in, in my household. So we're sitting there, it's toward the end of the meal. The waiter comes over and he says, uh, "You know, based on the, you know, to celebrate the birth of your son, uh, Mr.

Black over here would like to buy you the fi- finest bottle of champagne in the restaurant to celebrate your son's birth."

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Wow

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: yeah. So I'm thinking, "Oh, this is fantastic. This is awesome." So my mother, who's sitting there, she "

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: No,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: I'm, I'm sorry, we don't, we don't drink."

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Oh, no

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: the best, the best glass of wine or champagne I ever drunk was the one that I actually didn't.

so they ended up buying our meal anyway, so good for Clint Black. Clint Black, if you're out there, thank you for buying a meal, uh, for me and my family, uh, 23

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Gosh

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: I'll never forget that moment. What a

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: H-have you forgiven your mom?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: You know, it's one of those, it's one of those things with your mom, like, you have to forgive your mom,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Oh.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: uh, but I'm n-

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Do you when [01:00:00] it's the best bottle of champagne at Ruth Chris?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: me. Yeah. So, so I was... I went up to the hospital right after and told, told Kim the story, and she's like, "What?" You know, "Why don't, why don't, why don't you just take it and bring it back or something else?" So, uh, I dropped the ball on that one for her.

Yeah. That's the story I always think about when I think of wine and champagne. That's a hard one to forget

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: I'm not gonna lie, I feel a little heartbroken for you. That's,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah. Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: that's a tough one. Okay.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Oh,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: And who would you not trust, and why?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Oh, that's good. That's good. Wow You know, I, I've always been kind of been in my own tradition. I've al- kind of been on the, on the edge a little bit of, of belonging of some of the things that, that I'm willing to say i- in public. And another person like that in history was Martin Luther. And so, uh, maybe I would trust him.

I think we're, we're wired the same way in a [01:01:00] little bit just to be able to challenge some of the things that are happening. Uh, and he was also known to drink a, a good bottle of wine. And so I, I think that would, that would work well. Um, boy, I not trust? There's a lot of people I wouldn't trust

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Right?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: or anything else.

Um, you know, I, I think of one person from my own tradition. There was a preacher in-- This has nothing to do with wine, but it's kinda related why I wouldn't trust him. Uh, there was a guy in my own tradition, a preacher, that was probably one of the foremost preachers in our tradition in the la- in the 20-- early 20th century, a guy named Foy Wallace Jr.

Um, it just sounds ominous

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: It does. sound intense

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Foy Wallace Jr. he's a preacher, incredibly racist, uh, said some horrific things uh, Black people in the early 20th century from the pulpit, writing in journals. and he had incredible influence, you know, and that's, that's even more damaging, right?

When not only are they saying it, but they know that they have the power and the influence to influence everybody else. And so I [01:02:00] think because of his ministry kind of set our tradition on a trajectory that was very dangerous, and I think we're still recovering from some of those things, I think even now.

but I, I wouldn't trust him to pick out a bottle of wine or anything else

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: That's good. No, that's, that sounds good. What's something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Oh, wow Okay, so this is, this is kind of putting, putting it out there a little bit. So I have grown up in a tradition, again, that was very, patriarchal in nature. And growing up, uh, in our tradition, uh, women did not have a voice. Uh, they did not-- They weren't praying in public, they weren't preaching, they weren't leading in, in any capacity whatsoever.

remember as a kid, to kind of put this illustration, I remember as a kid, I was, I was at a football game, high school football game, Southern Louisiana, and at that time, the, the-- right before the game started, they did the Pledge of Allegiance, they had a prayer, all these kinds of things. And I [01:03:00] remember there was a high school female student that led the prayer.

And I remember as a kid, I'm like always-- I was like ten, you know, ten years old probably, and the kid listening to this, and I remember thinking as we're praying, "Man, she just doesn't know that she's not supposed to be doing this." Like,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: oh man

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: somebody's gotta tell her. And I remember thinking like, you know, this holier-than-thou posture, but that's, that's the way I grew up.

Um, but boy, have I changed my perception on that. I think studying scripture and my experience w-with others and when I was living in a small town in East Texas, uh, I remember leading a church through some of that transition, more toward an egalitarian structure. And man, that's painful, uh, because we're so wed to those traditions and the ways that we've been formed.

An area, it's an important area that I was-- I'll just tell you, I was, I was dead wrong, uh

Think differently and open up scripture [01:04:00] in a different way and was able to, uh, to change my views on that

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah, it's a bad idea to exclude half the church.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Absolutely. Yeah, what could go wrong, right?

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Just as a,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: a little side note, just for those listening.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Absolutely

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: What do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in the US today?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: I think it's what we've been talking about. I really do. I think that we have a lot of Christian people that are-- have much more allegiance to their country and their political party than they do to Jesus, they can-- people can say that's not true all they want, but actions speak louder than words.

I think it's very evident. I mean, you know, how can a Christian justify, you know, some of the things that we're saying about immigration and it's just, you know, one example? It's just-- it's, it's mind-boggling. It's, it's obvious, I think if we're not careful, I think we're gonna lose this generation. Um, I really do.

I, I work on a college campus, and I talk to [01:05:00] younger Christians all the time, and they see it. I mean, they see the hypocrisy. They, they see the, the, the actions of church leaders do not gel well with the Sermon on the Mount, you know. And in fact, the more we act like Jesus, we-- we're-- like, people say we're woke or, you know, as if that's some sort of a criticism or something else.

Uh, no, actually, we're just-- we're loving the poor, and we're, you know, feeding the hungry, and we care about those that don't have a voice, and that's at the heart of Jesus. And, and I think it's-- I think we're in a dangerous moment when we're allowing our political affiliation and political allegiances to, to trump pardon the, the pun, uh, trump our, our allegiance to God.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: I, I'd rather be awoke, uh, than asleep, so

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Absolutely. Yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Uh, If it's, if it's, you know, wake up or sleep, Yeah. yeah, I'll, I'll wake up. That, that's... I'll be, I'll be woke. I'll do... I'll do that. Uh, what's something blowing your mind Right. now that you're thinking about or learning?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: [01:06:00] Oh, well that's a good one. You know, this is not related to anything we've been talking about, but artificial intelligence I think

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah. I, I spend a lot of time there

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: I spend a lot of time thinking about that, and it's complex, right? It's, um, um, you know, I work at a university and we're trying to figure out how do we help prepare, uh, college students to enter a world that is being completely inundated with artificial intelligence, you know?

And so what we're dealing with that on the one hand, trying to... We want to prepare them well to enter this space that's so different from, from the world of five years ago. And at the same time, this impulse th-th-this recognition that as, as, again, as people of faith, thinking about some of the ethical theological issues related to this, uh, and, and the amount of resources this is taking and the way that it's changing the world and, that, that one's occupying a l- a lot of space in my brain right now.

Just trying to figure out how do we, do [01:07:00] we move faithfully and healthily into tomorrow with this issue?

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: I feel like, um, like d- going into AI is kind of like quantum physics and the quantum, you know, realm of like the more you dive in, the more you are like, "I don't understand this stuff." And it's s- bigger and scarier and more bizarre. Uh, Yeah.

but I, I, I'm with you. I'm a sucker for what does this mean, and let's go think about this and follow that little...

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: of this?

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Yeah

Yeah. I love it. What's something you're excited about right now?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Hmm. Let's see. Again, something kinda unrelated to what we've been talking about, but I, I'm excited about this season of my life. Uh, so we, my wife and I, we have four children. Uh, we have two girls that are twins that are, uh, 25 years old living in, in the Metroplex area. We have a son that's 23, and we have a son that's 21.

so our, our youngest is s- is about to start his senior year of college, [01:08:00] and we're just kinda entering this season of life, this very much empty nest. You know, our youngest, Ben, has been out of the house now for three years, but he's still in town attending ACU, where I teach. Um, and it's great having him around, but it's, it's a weird time because our evenings look so different.

I had a meeting this morning with a, a faculty member at our college that has younger children, and she was talking about a practice that my wife and I had so often in the summers, is we wanna coordinate all of our kids going to summer camp at the same time so we could have this getaway vacation. And now we have, you know, we have all this time, uh, with each other, and I'm, I'm loving this time of life, and I'm excited about that.

And so I feel like we're still relatively young, and, and our kids are, uh, adulting in a good way, and it's fun to interact with them as adults, as, as real people, and not as our children in that way. And that's, that's been exhilarating to me over the last couple of years, and I'm, I'm just excited to see where all that leads.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Wes, I have five kids at home, and I feel like it's a little rude for you to talk about how [01:09:00] excited you are for this season.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: That was it. Hey, we had-- For a while, we had four kids under four. You know, it was, it was the days of, I think it was we had the twins at once, and they're all just right there together. So man, it was, uh... There, there are parts of that season of my life I just don't even remember. I think it was asleep.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Well, my daughter the other day, she's getting into babysitting, and she was asking me about things that I've learned about changing diapers, and I'm an expert on this. And I explained to her, I changed diapers regularly for a decade. Like, because of our five, the way they're spread out. literally 10 years in a row with no breaks.

Like, I have 10 years, and I think, you know, was it Malcolm Gladwell talking about 10,000 hours or 10 years?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: an

expert.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: literally an expert. in changing diapers. I did it for 10,000 hours, you know?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Crazy

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: just so funny you're like, "That was a sea-" And like, I don't really remember that season 'cause I was so sleep-deprived.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: but it

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: it is really... The older I get, the more I appreciate the uniqueness of kinda each of the, the eras you can go through [01:10:00]

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah. I'm telling you, I sound like an old man now, but man, before you know it, Jeremy, this season's gonna be over and you're gonna miss those things. Uh, and it's true. There's some

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: That's true, yeah.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: really enjoying this

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: But I think, uh, my goal is just what you said of, like, enjoy every season

right? So enjoy the season you're in and, uh, as our kids, you know, our oldest is 17, as they're becoming adults, I, I'm a big fan of them. You

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: really like the adult versions of you that you guys are turning into,

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah,

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: even I, I listen to you, I'm like, "I'm excited for that."

I'm not wishing it, you know, upon it, but, like, that sounds appealing to interact with you, so

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah. it's really

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: I like it

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: they're getting married and interacting with them in that respect. It's just, it's just fun. It's a great season

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: That's cool. All right. As we wrap this up, is there anything I did not ask you about that you're like, "Look, I got to address this or we cannot close this episode out"?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: I don't think so, man. He did a great job. Hit, hitting all the high points.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: thank you.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: good. Yeah. Yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: All right. Well, if you have that blessing, how... I- if someone's listening to this and they're like, "I like this guy, [01:11:00] I need to lean into this conversation," what's the easiest way for someone to connect with you maybe online?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah Uh, I have a Substack, uh, they're, they're active on Instagram, so just look for Wes Crawford, you can find it. I try to write about once a week. A lot of the things I'm writing about now are really on these topics. And so if you wanna get kind of a preview of the book that comes out in October, you can kinda get a taste of that in the next, uh, several weeks as I'm writing about it

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Do we have an official launch date?

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Uh, October 6th is I think the

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: October sixth.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah.

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: sweet

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: you, you can pre-order it now on Earman's, uh, also Amazon, I think it's available. Yeah

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Awesome. Well, Wes, I think you are giving certainly the church a gift. I don't know if most Americans will view this as a gift, but

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Right

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: are giving the church a gift in the ability to help think this through more objectively, to hopefully recognize where we have allowed another religion to creep in and take more of our allegiance than perhaps we are aware of.

[01:12:00] And it would be my hope that as people read this book, they have some aha moments where it's like, "Oh, that is what I'm doing," and a chance to go, "I don't wanna do that, and I wanna do it better." And so thank you for writing this. Thank you for the work that you're doing, and thanks for spending time on an afternoon in, in Texas to, to join us on the pod today

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Yeah, I appreciate you having me, Jeremy. Appreciate it

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: Well, everybody, go check out One Nation Over God. You can go pre-order it

support Wes, and, uh, should make for some fun conversations Right. before Thanksgiving when you're with your family.

wes-crawford_1_06-30-2026_150440: Just keep it on the

jeremy_1_06-30-2026_130440: There you go. We'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray. Thanks, friends

One Nation Over God (with Wes Crawford) | Ep. 77

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