Mystical Experiences (with John Doyle) | Ep. 80
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Well, before we begin today's episode, I wanna let you know we've got one spot left for our wine and whiskey guys trip happening September 25th through the 27th. This is in Oregon, and it's just an incredible weekend away. We stay in a couple of our rental homes, and we get to have guided custom wine experiences with the people who made it.
We're gonna have an incredible whiskey experience. It's just gonna be awesome. And in between all that, we are gonna have great conversations about what it means to be a healthy guy and how to process all of that how we're doing. And so if that is something that's interesting to you, I wanna encourage you to get that last spot.
September 25th through the 27th. You can find out all the details at the link in the show notes
Jeremy: Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we drink good wine and we explore the deeper story of [00:01:00] Christianity. Today we've got an interview with a guy named John Doyle. I've got to know John a little bit in the last few months. He has, always had a spiritual nature and has had that his whole life, as he describes it. He's a father of four.
He's been a writer for over 40 years. He's an abstract artist, a semi-retired house painter, and an avid sports fan. And we get into a great conversation about God and curiosity and fascination. And so this is an episode called Mystical Experiences.
I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or [00:02:00] a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine, and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you [00:03:00] explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know.
I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I... Oh. I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently, the wine is... But here we are.
Queer we are. Here we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you had your guests drink wine. It makes sense now. Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast.
I think you've got a good podcast. So throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice, isn't it? Cabernet and pray, yeah.
Jeremy: Well, today's guest admittedly is not a wine drinker, and yet he just told [00:04:00] me that he's surprised how much he enjoys his glass already. So welcome to the podcast, John
John: Thank you very much, Jeremy. Yeah, it's a, it's a revelation 'cause, I just thought I never liked wine, and it's probably because I drank a red or something that I really didn't like. But yeah, this what is this again? Oh, this is Chardonnay, and it's surprisingly good
Jeremy: Well, there you go. Well, part of the fun of this is we get people out of their comfort zone, out of their shell a little bit. And so if you are surprised by how much you're enjoying your glass, I'm already doing my job, so I feel good about that. So before we begin today, let's talk about what we're drinking.
I have got a 2019, this is called Ferrer Bobet. This is from Spain, and I am really enjoying this thing. In my glass, for those of you who are watching this on video, this thing is super dark, like purple. I mean, [00:05:00] like way into it. And I was thinking, "Okay, this is gonna be a lot." It is very full-bodied, very fruit forward, and yet it's nice.
I'm not getting overwhelmed with it. I'm getting dried cranberry and licorice, which is a really fun, fun little blend there. It's actually two grapes that I'm drinking today. It's Carignan, which is 85%, and then it's 15% Grenache. And I, I was thinking as I was looking at this blend that this is ... I'm gonna tie this into our conversation today.
I think a lot of us, if we were describe our journey with church or our journey with God, would say it's a mix, right? It's been some good things and some bad things. And as I was thinking about, and again, I don't know where we're gonna go in our conversation yet, but as I was thinking about, you know, okay, so this is 85% Carignan.
Is our journey 85% good with God, or is it [00:06:00] 85% negative? And so that 15% can be the thing that maybe you're holding onto of like, "Hey, I haven't, I haven't quit it yet." Or it can be, "Hey, it's been mostly good, you know, but there's this, there's some junk in there as well." And so depending on our listeners and where you're coming through, maybe that's your journey as well.
You're like, "Yeah, this has been a weird kinda mix." And so I don't know, I just thought of that connection as I'm enjoying my glass today. I got, I got a blend of two grapes, and it's two different things. And so maybe, maybe that gives room for our journey today. So that's what I'm drinking. John, what do you got in your glass?
John: well I have a last week, 1920, 1926,
Jeremy: Well, that would be incredible
John: I can't sell that one. A 2026 Black Box Chardonnay. I got the wine that my wife drinks and s- 'cause she knows that there'll probably be some left over from this, I like sweet things, so that's, that's what I, like, "Oh wow, this is, this is [00:07:00] good.
It's sweet." But I have to tell you, what, the way you describe your wine, Jeremy, that's what I really miss about being a wine drinker. All the detail and the way people go out and, "Hey, let's go out and have a glass of wine," and they have their favorite wine and they know about stuff.
And I, you know, I go in the liquor store and I see all the wine bottles and I'm like, "Oh my God, that's so cool. I wish I was a wine drinker." So like I said before, I think you might have your first convert, so
Jeremy: We've had all, we, we invite all sorts of, of wine experiences on this. And,
John: on
Jeremy: at the end of the day, I say there's wines you like, there's wines you don't. It's fun to geek out about it if that's interesting, but you don't have to understand it. You know, I don't understand all the mechanics behind a Dr.
Pepper, and yet I love Dr. Pepper, right? And so
John: Right on
Jeremy: the end of the day, you can just say, "I enjoy it. It's good." But there, it is fun for me to, to get into some of the nitty-gritty. As we transition to your story, the question I love to begin [00:08:00] with that gives us a, a kind of a, an umbrella of, of what, what are we, what are we gonna dive into here?
What about your journey? Let's, let's narrow it down to the last 10 years. How would you say your faith has changed in the last 10 years?
John: There have been some major spiritual, upheavals that, have been very jarring and that have kind of surprised me. You have this kinda long run with, with God and, yeah, and there's ups and downs and ins and outs and good times and bad times, like you said.
I'm not saying the bad times are something that, know, that, that are not outside of God. I'm talking about within the God experience, like, like you said. And and It's it's been very challenging. It's been really challenging. And, but then again, I look and I step back and I go, this is, this is kind of God's [00:09:00] nature, at least in my life, is to th- is to, is to throw these things in there that, really knock me off, and, I kinda stumble around and I go through all, I have to go through all the forgiveness of, the forgiveness of God, forgiving Him for what I perceive something that He's bringing through His hand, that's not a comfortable thing. And and so it's, uh, it's a new season.
You've, I'm, I turned 65 this year and, and you kind of have this, always have this notion that that life kinda gets easier and more s- more
Jeremy: It's not been your experience so far?
John: Yeah, no, it hasn't. But, you, like retirement. Retirement is like, oh, I retire
Jeremy: Right
John: from all the challenges that I've been living for 65 years. And of course, it's not that way. And so one hand, it's, really what it is is 'cause I like, and I know this is what God knows about me, is I [00:10:00] like the tension. I like the tension of God, I don't like, just, I like when God comes in and, "Hey, John, let's look at this really painful thing," or, "Let's have you go through this experience where you fall on your face and you, cry out or you don't cry out." It's just kinda proof that, as we continue walking, continue walking out our life and continue walking in our God, it's like, we, I don't know what is gonna kind of be around the next bend and I think I like that. I think I like that tension. Even, even in my, advanced ages, I like that.
I like it, it feels really good to, wake up and, I gotta get this done. I gotta get this purpose done and, 'cause everything in my life has great purpose to it. And so it really give, I've really, even through the- situations, I develop a greater clarity of what I want to do even though there's, [00:11:00] challenges each and every, each and every day
Jeremy: Yeah, if you can learn to, to love the tension, you're, you're gonna be in a good spot because there's plenty of tension, not only just with life, but any- anyone who has attempted to follow the way of Jesus. It, it comes with tensions
John: Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of not too hard to not read tension into, into what Jesus did. There was al- always
Jeremy: Right
John: And so, yeah. And God knows that, I grew up, kind of a wild child, kind of a feral, feral kid. Always out looking for the adventure and always out, into some sort of mischief or, something.
And, and I think He understands that part of my nature, that I need these, kind of spiritual adventures that, know, you go through all the, all the feelings of what it means to be an adventurer. The fear and the danger and the ah, and the victories and the, And [00:12:00] yeah, that's what I, That's what I appreciate
Jeremy: That's cool. Okay, one of the things you wrote to me is you said, "I've always lived with the question, what's beyond what I see? Which has given me a life of curiosity and imagination." Talk to us about your curiosity and your imagination
John: Um That's, that's a great question 'cause I actually just finished up my, my book. I, just finished my book, The Religion of Grace, and towards the end I talk about, what it really means to see someone, 'cause that's part, that's a big part of my, of, of my story in my, in my book is, how we can get to where we really see someone and really see what's beyond what I see.
Because we, we come and we see and we see the physical and we see the ethnicities and we see the wealth and we see the stuff that we see, but do we ev- do- but do we really see what we see? [00:13:00] And the curiosity and the fascination, I think, if there's one, like, a work of Jesus in my life, like something I can say, "Yeah, this is what Jesus did, He did these things in order to achieve this," and the end result is what I call, it's like we all have a, like a library and, and within our library we have, we have everything. We have all of our knowledge, all of our experience, it's in the mind and, and we have all of our opinions and biases and everything is in there, and we can go in there and we can access all this information at, at any time. Well, I think what the f- the first step was what Jesus taught me, and this is really a lot that goes into closing the library door. Leaving the library and closing the library door. Leaving everything that you have, everything that you can, [00:14:00] judgment, every, preconceived notion, and you walk into someone else's presence.
First of all, close your library door. And like I said, closing the library door is really hard and it takes a lot of, ego death and, and, and all the stuff that the Spirit brings us through is to, in my opinion, is to kind of allow us to not allow all of ourselves to come into every situation.
'Cause, because when, when I come and sit you or with anyone, I first of all close the library door, so I'm coming not with any preconceived notions, not with any judgments. It's kind of like, know, kind of like an empty shell. then the next step is what I call putting someone on stage. I think this is one of the most inerrant things that we want as, as human beings, is we want to be on the stage. [00:15:00] We want to be able to tell our story and for people to listen. And so, I, it's like, "Okay, John, now be the audience." And we know what the audience is. We go to- we go to listen to, to you.
I listened to you yesterday, so I sit back and, I'm the audience. I'm listening to Jeremy and, he's talking, he's telling his stories and, doing a sermon. And, and allowing that person, to... And I think we can do this within our spirits, that we can walk into a situation with someone, and within the spirit-to-spirit connection, that person can feel that.
Like, yeah, and then you just, you just let them, let them be up on stage. And then the third thing is, is really our posture And, and the image that I just absolutely love is the image of [00:16:00] young child, like the two and three-year-old who are sitting, cross-legged, sitting d- down, cross-legged watching the puppet show up above them. And just that look, we've seen the pictures, we've t- seen it in our own kids, just that look of wonder. And, so that's really And that breeds that curiosity and that fascination, 'cause all of a sudden, I'm in a where I'm not judging, where I'm not, know, trying to tear apart their argument.
And, and it doesn't mean that we just, that we, we can always access our library at any time. If we need to pull some knowledge out, we can do that. But I'm talking about just, like, in the presence of someone and how that will just al- allow us to be fascinating, a, a, t- to be fascinated. Because fascination... curiosity is kind of [00:17:00] like, is kind of like quick. We can be curious about something, and it, it's a good thing, 'cause it gets us into the thing. But fascination takes longer, and we have to stay there longer, and we have to see- look deeper in order to get the fruits fascination. And so, that's what I try and, that's what, walk with Jesus, that would be my answer. Anything, with the Jesus daily life, that would be my answer. Closing the library door, putting someone up on stage, and being as a child. And letting, letting the other person...
i've always used this analogy. If, if, if you and me and Jesus, the real Jesus, were all sitting in the same room, know who'd, you know who would be the most important person? You. You would be the most important person, and that's, and that to me is, like, really the heart of Jesus, he wants us to, to [00:18:00] become what we truly were meant to be
Jeremy: I, I love, I, gosh, I just listen to this and I'm thinking if we practice what you're saying, I mean, it, it would like fundamentally change relationships because so often we go into interactions, we go into whoever we're talking to, and, you know, it's the proverbial I'm, I'm listening to what you're saying only because I'm gonna respond with something else that, you know, here's what I want to tell you about, so I'm listening for, for that cue, right?
And
John: Yeah
Jeremy: what you're saying is not just... I love it 'cause it's almost like what you're describing are the disciplines of curiosity. So you take curiosity, and then you add this like these disciplines in where you're like, "Hey, I'm gonna close the library. I'm not coming with all my ideas, all the things I wanna say, all the things I wanna..."
Like, nope, that, that's there. Like you said, I love it. Like, I can access that at any time, but I'm gonna close the door. I'm gonna be here with you. And then it was [00:19:00] reminding me as I was listening to you, you know, I, I've read about how we all like to hear our own name said. Like, there's something psychologically, emotionally it does when someone says your name.
And it's, it's just a simple validation of like, oh, I exist and you're, you're, you're seeing me, right? And as I'm listening to you, you know, platform that person, put them on the stage, there's just a beauty of it's a, it's a simple, humble posture you're, you're proposing. And, and I love that it, it does. It, it starts with curiosity, but you're right, curiosity can be fleeting.
You know, you can have like a curious thought, and then you let it go. But moving to your word, moving to fascination, if we were fascinated by the people we were interacting with every day, like the amount of humanity that would be exchanged, the amount of just the spirit connection that would be there, I think would be beautiful.
And I, I [00:20:00] love your analogy of if Jesus is in the room, Jesus is not, you know, drawing all the attention to himself. And I think we get that wrong in the church a lot 'cause we're like, all, all Jesus wants is worship and praise and adoration. And Jesus is like: Look, I came to show you a better way to live.
Like, follow my example. You know, and like, I think we can passively like, "No, we're not gonna, we're not gonna live like you. We're just gonna talk about you." You know what I mean?
John: Yeah.
Jeremy: But I think you really, you have, you figured out in your old age, my, my man, you have figured out how to practice some of these things, and it, it really is a, is a beautiful thing that you just laid out for us.
John: Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a wonderful thing, to watch. I've always been a spiritual person, and I, and I don't say that bragging because clearly understand the liabilities [00:21:00] of being a spiritual person. I even write that in my book, don't think that I, I, 'cause I, we'll, maybe we'll get a chance to talk about my mystical experiences, and it's like, know, spirituality is... I mean, being a spiritual person doesn't, just a way of being, it's just, you have, just have certain, different connections than someone else.
It d- there's, there's not like any sort of, "Oh, I'm, I'm more special." It's just a different, it's just another function, and and and so, yeah. It's just amazing what we see, I love, hearing the stories about people's, God stories and, and it's a, it's a really, it's a really wonderful world to live in, the spiritual world and, and, and yeah
Jeremy: Okay, so let's, let's go there. You, you have said that seconds of mystical experience outweigh years of study, which is... It's a hot take for you today. What did one of [00:22:00] those seconds actually contain for you? I want you to pick one and take us inside it
John: Okay. Okay, very good. We'll start with my very first one. This happened oh my gosh, back in the very early '80s. I had just moved my young family. I was a very young father. I was an 18-year-old father, and so we were living here in Phoenix, and we moved up to Alaska. my, my older brother was living up there, and, and life was hard, I always had this, this marriage that was really, really difficult, a really difficult, marriage. And and know, one night, things just fell apart. Just everything just fell apart. And, I found myself stumbling to the living room where we were living and I don't know, ever been in a really contentious situation, you just drains you of all your energy.
You just, ah. And so I stumbled in the living room, [00:23:00] and I went, and I kind of like almost like threw myself into the couch, and I l- and, I was really just falling, and I fell into the crack of the couch. Where the back cushion and the, and the bottom cushion. And my arm was underneath my body, so I was kind of wedged in there, and I'm laying there, and my world is dark. I mean, it
is hopelessness. Like, "Oh my God," "What am I doing?" This, life is just, dark. And, know, then I started thinking about my young son, and actually my wife was pregnant with my first daughter. And, I was like, and then I just said, in my, in my spirit or in my mind, I said, "Oh, man, I can't, can't give up. I can't give up." And then this is literally the first time I ever prayed, where I was like, "God, help me." And I just said, "God, give me the strength to go on." And as [00:24:00] soon as I got that period on the end of that sentence, I was sitting straight up, and I have no recollection of this lifting from the crack of the couch. Remember my arm is there, so it's... I mean, I actually later tried this when I was... And it's like, it's No, just, it, it... so I'm sitting straight up, my back straight, just like with this like infusion of hope. Just like, whoa. And then it only lasted for like a moment, and then it just f- then it just f- left. And, I stood there and, and the only thing I could say was, "Whoa." And I went outside, and I looked up into, the star-filled Alaskan sky, and I'm just like, "What was that?" And, and because I said, "God, give me the strength to go on," I just kinda figured it was God, and that kinda led me, further into further into [00:25:00] my spiritual journey. But, those two moments, I mean, still can't explain. I mean, I have no recollection of, of being lifted up. And but I know that I was. And so it's kind of like Man, that's like real. That's like, that's like, that's why when I talk about my mystical experiences, I talk to them, I talk about them as like the real stories of my life.
Like the, know, like where there's clarity and, and there's, and at least for me, 'cause all my mystical experiences other than a few, know, I've had a few prophetic words for people, but, they've always been like about me, about something that to do with my character or something to do with my behavior or some sort of revelation that I need to see in order to close the library door, in order to t- order to be, like Jesus. And [00:26:00] continue on 'cause I, I don't know if I answered the question. Sometimes I go rambling off in my spiritual mind and,
Jeremy: No, that's good. I think what's interesting, whenever you talk about mystical stuff, and I, I, I get in this tension as well because I've had, you know, I've had these moments too where you go, "There was, there was something about that that was beyond," and yet I also am a very logical person, so then I, I immediately start checking myself of like, "Well, that doesn't make any sense," you know?
And, and then I'm, I'm... I've often felt torn between that, of like, well, I, I feel like I need to explain this away, but I also have to acknowledge there was something there. And I think for a lot of people probably listening to this right now, they're like, "Yeah, I've been there," in that tension where you have these moments.
You're like, "There's something about it," and yet there's this other part of you that wants to explain it away, that wants to be able to say, "Well, it was just this or th- it was that." [00:27:00] And, and I just... I find that so fascinating because it's fascinating to me that so many of us can relate to that feeling, can relate to that tension of it's even hard to describe these moments.
And that's why I wanted you to share a story because it's, it's easy to talk about it in the abstract. The minute you start saying, "Okay, well, Silvi, here's what it was," right? It like, it- it's almost very... Right. It's very vulnerable, though, and I appreciate you sharing 'cause it's, it's letting us in on something that, you know, I'm sure there's a part of you that's like, "Well, look, I, I know there's probably an explanation to this.
I just don't know, I don't know how to explain it. You know, I don't know what it was." And so I think part of experiencing God is just making room for some of that mystery to go, "I don't know. I don't know what that was. I don't have a great answer for you. I can just tell you this is what it felt like.
This is what it seemed like." And then we just kind of like humbly hold that, right? Like
John: Amen. Amen
Jeremy: it [00:28:00] was me. Maybe it was my mind playing tricks on me. Maybe it was the Holy Spirit. Like, I don't know.
John: Yeah
Jeremy: but we know we have these experiences, right?
John: Amen. Amen. And that's the part right there, right? He said at the end, we know we had the experience. And that's what, that's what it really hinges on for me, 'cause I know, and, and there again, I'll, I'll tell you a story about Recon John, some point. That kinda really illustrates, my heart to telling these stories. But, now I probably gotta tell it just because I got... it's
Jeremy: Oh, let's go see her it
John: know, it's, my spiritual conversation is like a tree with like 1,000 roots 'cause this is, this is what I think about more than anything. I think about spiritual things. And so, I'll tell you about Recon John. And the first story I told you is called... 'Cause I've, I've had three forms of mystical experiences, [00:29:00] that was a physical manifestation. It's like when you're falling off the ledge and something grabs you, and you go, "There's no one here," but something, something grabbed me, And then what I'm gonna talk about now are are what I call visions.
And what visions are, are j- it's like a, it's like a movie pops into my spiritual mind, and I'm watching a movie, I'm not only watching the movie, I'm in the movie. it's not only that I'm in and out of the movie as the actor in the audience, and you would think, "Okay, well then you're 50%, 50%." It's In the, in the mystical, there's what I call the paradox, is that what I experienced was 100%, 100% within 100% standard. And you go, "Well, that don't make any sense. How do you have two 100s in one 100? That's, that's illogical." Mystical is illogical. And I, and I c- you know, just like you talked about, you don't This isn't [00:30:00] about logic. This is about experience. And, and then I have to under- then I s- I have to explain, like I'm doing, the, the logic of it
And in this vision of Recon John I was just kinda wondering, I was, just in my daily life I was just kind of wondering as I do but wonder about things and, know, and, and I don't know the world, if there is like an online world of mysticisms or mystical experiences.
I, I don't, I don't know that. I don't go searching for mystical stories because I 'Cause to be honest, I just like thinking about my own, 'cause they're like really real. And so but, I was like, "Man, dude," so I kinda, I, so I kinda asked this question to God, and the question was, God, am I, am I special?" I mean, not like, sitting at the right hand of the Father, whatever, special. But, am I, am I, am I [00:31:00] special? And immediately what I s- you know, one of these visions started, and what I saw was this vision of this, of this man And he had like this, it's like, it's like the look that you, that you would receive if, if you said, "Hey, man, give me the straight poop on this.
Don't cut any, cut anything out of it, give me the straight 100% truth." And the look was, "Oh my God, if I give you the truth, it's gonna crush you." the truth being,
Jeremy: Mm-hmm.
John: this, I, I could hear God's thoughts. And he, and he's like, "Special? More like special ed," know? "Look, look what I have to do for you, Doyle.
I have to t- you know, grab you and touch you and make these movies and, say things out loud for you to just stay on the, stay on the straight and wobbly and, and..." But he knew he couldn't say that because it would, it would crush my, [00:32:00] wafer-thin ego. And so then I saw his mind reeling, you know when, when, when your mind reels? It's like you're really, like, searching for an answer, like right now. And, and, and all of a sudden he goes, and this is the only time I've ever heard, in any time God's ever spoken to me, ever heard him stammer. he goes, he goes, "You're, you're, you're reconnaissance.
Yeah. Yeah, that's it. You're reconnaissance. You, wherever you go, are going there to gather information, and then you're gonna come back into reality with..." And as he's telling me this, I'm getting the understanding behind the words. And the understanding is, is that I have no authority in these stories.
I have no authority to claim truth besides myself, but I have no authority to claim any truth to you, to [00:33:00] your audience, to anyone in the world, that these are truth. All I'm doing, and I, and I try and maintain that posture, going, having these experiences, coming back and like, "Hey, this is what happened."
You... r- reconnaissance has no authority when they come back with the information. They can't tell the general, "Hey, you guys need to go and, do this, and, you need to go do that." They just come back, "Hey, this is what we saw. Go off and do our thing." And so I'm getting this, and, know, and I can tell God's still trying to, like, get beyond this really uncomfortable thing.
And so he, goes, "Yeah, you're reconnaissance." Then He goes, "Yeah, recon. You're recon. You're, you're, you're Recon John." As if, if he did something really exciting at the end, I wouldn't, like, pick up on that He never did give me the, the straight answer. And, and the final look, I got on His face was like, [00:34:00] "Woo. Dodged a bullet there." And, and that... I love that because I love, I love the humor. I love when God, does stuff like that. It just really shows me His, His character and how... that's, Jeremy, that's what I love about, about this format, is that it's fun. You drink some wine, get loose. Some, talk some stuff, that we may not talk about, in our pulpit or in our Sunday school class, and have some fun. And, know, I, I like telling that story because, 'cause God's fun, and, and it also just illustrates that that's always the posture that I want to want to have when I, when I share these stories.
That, this isn't like some, Because, the, the thing about all these mystical experiences, I did nothing get them. This isn't like, oh, I've figured out the right kind of, prayer and/or this right kind of discipline. [00:35:00] Man, these things- These things come, I mean, the first one I talked to you about, that came back, years before I got in, in plugged, really into any sort of anything religious. And, and really even really spiritual. I was just, some pot smoking unemployed, laborer, trying to, know, trying to make it. And, there's been times when, yeah, there's been times when I prayed. The first time I, I'll, I tell the story about hearing the voice. I prayed, but it, it wasn't like some, fantastic prayer. It was more like, "Oh, woe is me, Lord." "Oh," I, and, and, Yeah. And, and, and even, counting up all my mystical experiences has not totaled more than two minutes if I totaled them all up, in my very crude way of like, "Okay, that seemed like four seconds.
That seemed like eight seconds. That seemed like one [00:36:00] second." And I've lived a heck of a lot more minutes than, two minutes, and so, There's always so much humility, at least for me in my mystical experiences, because they're about me. They're, they're about me. And so, th- they're never meant to, like, be about someone else. L- outside of, like I said, I've had a couple of prophetic words and but you know, it's like, know, it's all that stuff keeps, it keeps me humble because it's not anything that I've ever, done to, to warrant anything that I've received. And years have gone by, years have gone by since my last one. Sometimes I'm like, "Ah, know, I guess I've had enough," 'cause I seem to have a, there was, like, a cluster of them And then, it's like ... But then again, I, I, I don't even expect them. I just go about my day. If God wants to interrupt and, know, do something, it'll either be really cool or really scary so I'm not like, I'm like, "Hey, Lord, come and talk to me," or, "Come and, give me a prophetic word every day," 'cause that's, that stuff is really scary, I don't wanna, I don't [00:37:00] wanna have, do everything that God wants me to do, I mean, like, straight from the horse's mouth, that's, it's one thing, just like, "Oh yeah, we need to love one another." That's, I mean, that's great for human life, but when, God starts, like, talking to you, some serious stuff, yeah
Jeremy: Well, I, I love the posture, you know, that you are, you are sharing these. It definitely... You're, you're holding them, you know, with humility of, "Hey, this is, this is what it was for me." And I think that gives other people, you know, the chance to, to process. Like, all right, what do we, what do we make of that? And, you know, what I've found when you talk about the mystical type experiences with God, you know, it, it, it does kind of divide people, right?
You have people that are like, "Absolutely 100% greatest things of my life." You have other people that are like, "No way, this sounds fake." So I wanna ask about that. Before I do, I wanna point out one of the things you, you mentioned that I'll just say this, this has been true in my experiences with Jesus, and this has [00:38:00] been true
This is a theme that I have found in talking to other people about these kind of experiences is the humor of Jesus. This is a pattern I have heard, and I, I, I've shared this story before, but I had one where I was doing kataphatic prayer, which is imaginative prayer, and I was having this conversation. I was a lead pastor.
I was super stressed. It was a really hard season, and it just felt like this, like, just weight on my shoulders of, like, all the things I was trying to do and just didn't feel like ... This is so hard and, you know, and all this. And I had taken a couple days to go to the beach in Oregon and just, like, get away and like, "Hey, I just need some time to, like, recenter myself with Jesus," right?
So I'm having this, like, incredible prayer experience, and I'm envisioning, you know, talking to Jesus on the beach and I'm, I'm, like, unloading all of my baggage. Like, this is ... I'm frustrated about this, and I'm worried about this, and I'm anxious about this. [00:39:00] And this is what I got, John, is that Jesus put his arm around me, and he started laughing.
And it ticked me off because I was like, "This isn't funny. I'm pouring out my heart to you." And it was just this good-natured, like, version of Jesus like, "Jeremy, I've got you." Like, "It's gonna be okay." Like, "You're so stressed. You're so..." You know? And it wasn't a mocking laugh. It was like a, "Oh, man, this... I got you," you know?
And it was disarming to me, where it was like I was so intense and stressed, and it w- like, it caught me off guard. And I just have kind of filed that away of like, oh, that was an interesting response. Well, I've talked to numerous people who have talked about the humor of Jesus that has disarmed them, and you just shared a story about that.
And so before we, we move on from the mystical, there's, there's one more question 'cause I, I can imagine some of our listeners are still like, "I don't know. I don't know about all of this." So I'm gonna give you a [00:40:00] chance to speak to that person, okay? So here's, here's I think the question maybe they're, they're wondering.
How do you tell a genuine encounter from your own brain giving you what you want?
John: In short, you know yourself. You know how you think. You know how y- the, it's almost like, now, there, this is, yeah, this is the answer, the answer that I'd give is know yourself. Okay? If you know how you react to life, how you think, what your actual thinking process is, how you feel If it's something other than that, I would give it credence. Okay? Yeah, I mean, if it sounds just like you, "Oh yeah, this is the way I think," I would, I wouldn't say that it's wrong because there again, the mys- [00:41:00] having a mystical experience is not, is not the point The point isn't the mystical experience. The point is what is the mystical experience trying to, trying to raise,
Jeremy: Right. Right
John: we, we never wanna get, caught up in, in it. Like, oh, 'cause yeah, it really did sound like me, and oh, I thought that was a mystical experience and so this whole thing is... No, don't do that. It's like, oh yeah, that was me. 'Cause that's okay. I mean, we do that as, we, know, we listen to all parties, don't we? Ourselves and, God and, maybe the d- whatever the dark side is. We, we're, we're always, there's always some sort of, frequency going on. So, if we can really know ourselves, because that's the thing about my mystical experiences, what I can say with 100% certainty is they were not me. Because I could not do that. I could not do these things. I would not create these kind of [00:42:00] stories. I would create stories where I'm the fricking king. Where I've got all the answers. That's why, these people, and I don't wanna get off into, people that hear from God, but, if everything is, if everything is just feeding them and, feeding, I mean- Man, this, this stuff is harsh. These mystical experiences have been, have been harsh.
Jeremy: faint of heart
John: not for the faint of heart
And, and, and so that, that would be the main thing. That would be the easiest but most difficult thing, 'cause to, really understand ourselves is, it takes a l- it's another one of those lifelong things because, we are so complex and, we have so many deceptions, and, we just live life with blinders and, and, and egos and all that.
And, but once... that's what I've always seen the work of the spirit, know, the work of Jesus and, the mystical. 'Cause they're all, to me, they're all one and the same, is that [00:43:00] it's trying to show me, me, it's trying to show me, me. That's like, I also use this, the analogy of the mirror. The mirror, the mirror can be a beautiful, mirror. We, first time we come in, the m- it, the analogy of the mirror as God, and the first time we come in and meet the mirror, we're, "Oh my God, what a great mirror," "This is awesome."
But, every other time that we go stand in front of the mirror, we're not looking at the mirror, we're looking at us. We're looking at our reflection. And, and that's what God wants us to see. He wants us to see His, our own reflection, warts and all, so that we can, know, do all that internal work, c- we all have to, know, do our forgivenesses and, letting things go. That's all, part and parcel to this whole, thing that we do. But, one other thing I just wanted to say about your mystical experience that is one of my biggest motivations for talking about [00:44:00] my mystical experiences, to give someone like you room to share your own.
And for you, and for someone to take that out of the, maybe the shadows of their own life, 'cause that's what we do. "Oh, this weird thing happened. Oh, it's, are we supposed to be, hearing from the trees?" Or, whatever. And we stuff it away, know, and we don't, we don't honor it.
And I want people to, like, at least, hey, take that out. Play with it, look at it. Because the whole, one of the big roots in my, in my book, The Religion of Grace, is the grace experience. And when we can identify the grace experience, we can go back to that. When I, when I need answers in my life- I go back to my mystical experiences and go, "Okay, what happened there? That was a real thing. And oh, yeah, I was int- I was, laid out, or I was, this, and God [00:45:00] showed up this way and I learned this." And that's, that's one of my big messages, is understand what your grace experience is and find your inspiration there.
Not only there. This is not a black and white thing. This is... what I'm talking about is like an add-on, just very important add-on. But just an add-on to, know, okay, I need some inspiration. I'm going back to what is real, and your experience sounds like it was very real. And you could go back there and you could, and you could dissect it and go, "Gosh, man, what, what was that really ab- what was Jesus...
'Cause you did that. He, you said, "Jesus wasn't mocking me. He was, doing it this way." 'Cause you looked at it and you go, "Yeah, hey, that, that's really cool." And we can do that. We can continue to go in and mine these experiences as we find with, anything of God, there's no like, okay, that's it, that's all you're gonna learn [00:46:00] about this.
Everything goes deeper and we can, be challenged by something, and we can go deeper and, experience more and, run back to these experiences for, safety and security. Like, oh man, yeah. Whew. That really did happen. And yeah, maybe I don't need to worry about, yeah, Jesus did put his arm around me, I mean, I tell you a story about my grandson, Tommy. This was probably when he was like seven or eight, he had an experience where God winked at him. I mean, and,
Jeremy: Mm.
John: and he wasn't even a, a church kid. They didn't, they didn't, they had very kind of... N- no, they weren't even church people, my daughter and her husband. And and it's like, oh my God, that is like so God, to wink at, to wink at a little kid. But I even noticed, 'cause I talked to him about it. I said, "Man, I'd like to, put your story in my book." And he was kinda like, "Oh, well, what story?" And I could tell he was, know, he was embarrassed by it and, and, and it's [00:47:00] just like his mom, my daughter, Katie, she's a very spiritual person. And she had a, she had an angel experience, back when she was, a preteen, and it went on for a couple of hours. It was really incredible. And she's, she's very reticent about talking about it. Well, she has a lot of I won't go there. But Yeah
and so, I, I really want to take some of the mystique out of it even though it's a mystical. That that to, to trust those things at least enough to look at them and, separate the wheat from the tares and, out what you wanna keep. 'Cause my, one of my strong s- very strong spiritual messages is that we own our spiritual life like nothing else. That we have, if you decide to have a spiritual life, take responsibility for it in the fact that no, this is my, this, these are my [00:48:00] decisions. I can listen to everyone. I can listen to this guy telling the mystical stories. I can tell this guy who's, preaching from the Bible. I can, listen over here. But I'm gonna make the final decision, that I'm gonna s- look at it and go, "Okay, is this right for my life? Do I want this? Is this something that's gonna, know, benefit my life?" Maybe not even knowing that down the road you could change your mind. And, know, I, I, I want people to accept responsibility for their spirituality even to the point of denying the spirituality.
Even if you say, "Ah, that's a bunch of bu- that's a bunch of BS, Doyle. The things you're talking about, they just came out of your mind somewhere," or, whatever. Fine if that is your truth. I honor that. I have an older brother my, my oldest brother, Robert, who y- he's, he's p- the, the patriarch, [00:49:00] arch of the family.
We have, we have, there's six, six of us kids and, and he's always been the, he's always been the man. He takes care of all the, all the family business and, and, he, he, and I share with him, what I got going on, share with him my stories and, and, and, and, and he listens to them. He's super smart, logical guy. then when he says, John, I don't have any point of reference you're talking about." He's not a spiritual, spiritual person. That doesn't mean that he doesn't have his thoughts and knowledges, about spirituality and stuff, but he doesn't work on the same frequency as I do. And, just, I mean, and so I really honor that. I look at that. That's what I'm able to see in someone. There are people, even if we're just talking about the idea of creation, that God made most people Not [00:50:00] naturally able to believe in God. Because, I think we remem- we forget, 'cause we're so immersed in it, we just think it's, it's real, that, that the concept of God is very abstract. We're talking about, some invisible thing that may or not exist that has no, there's no one who's been able to put any sort of like ultimate truth to it because, there is no ultimate truth to it as far as, what we're looking at in the, in the spiritual religious world because it shows everyone's got their different ideas on what the ultimate truth is. And, he puts everything he got through, through his and, but I tell you what, he's a, he's a much better person than I am. I, I'm glad and God is also glad that he didn't make everyone just like me because spiritual people, it's, it's really odd how we, in our society, "Oh, he's a, spiritual person.
Oh, he's a pastor. Oh, he's this or that." And, it don't really mean anything. Not, [00:51:00] I shouldn't, I shouldn't say
Jeremy: Yeah
John: anything, but, it, doesn't just make you something better just because, you're recognized as a spiritual person. That, that, that, yeah, that doesn't fly with me
Jeremy: Well, I think you're, you're pointing out something that w- we all have equal footing in experiencing God. We all have the same challenges to make sense of God, the same opportunities to experience God, and I like your, you know, your recommendation. Just, like, own it. Like, own your journey, own
John: Yeah
Jeremy: sense to me, this is what I'm deciding, this is what I'm not deciding.
And I do think that the, the process of talking about these experiences, because they're so vulnerable, gives other people a chance to not only entertain that maybe they have had this or will have this, but then to be okay with it. To say, "Hey, like, I did have something that was kinda weird." And, you know, I do think they're very vulnerable stories to [00:52:00] share because there's a part of you that wonders, like, what was going on here?
And I don't know how to explain it. And so I appreciate your willingness to, to share some of yours with us and collectively to make space for others. So as we transition now, I wanna ask you some questions that I like to ask each of our guests, and we get to compare your answers to, to others.
John: Okay
Jeremy: on your first one because you're, you're not a wine guy, and you s- you, you said to me when I asked you, "Hey, will you drink with me on the episode?"
Well, there you go. You said, "Hey, I make a lot of faces when I drink wine," was your was your initial thought. And I said, "Hey, you can go make faces on the podcast. That's fine." So I'm curious, do you have a moment, and maybe you don't, where you were like, "Hey, that was the best glass of wine I've ever had in my life.
That was really good." And if you do have a moment, like, is there a story? Like, what, what happened? Why was it good? Or maybe you're like, "Today was the best I've ever had." I don't know. Where, what would you, [00:53:00] what would you do with that question?
John: Well, considering I got started back in my early teens drinking Boones Farm Strawberry Hill, and that was definitely not the highlight I have to say, this is in all honesty the best glass of wine I've ever drank, I will drink the whole thing down. And it also helps with the company I kept while, while drinking it, okay? So,
Jeremy: shucks.
John: yeah
Jeremy: go. All right. Your best glass, we just did it. Okay, which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you, and who would you not trust, and why?
John: Oh boy Jesus is part of history?
Jeremy: You can pick Jesus, yeah.
John: Jesus.
Jeremy: had a few people ask Jesus that he, he, he's gonna make the wine for them, so that's, it's a kind of cheating, but I'll, I'll accept it
John: Well, I know well how, [00:54:00] Jesus knows me, and he would probably pick some sort of low calorie, I mean, not, I'm sorry, not low calorie. Low, low alcohol content so I didn't overdo it. And it's just as an added bonus, he'd probably hang out, like, "Hey man, I'll just hang out." But really like, "Oh my God, I gotta hang out so this guy doesn't start, like, prophesying or..." Yeah, I mean, I, I still got half a box. I would've st- definitely started prophesying. You missed out, sorry. Next, next question.
Jeremy: All right, anyone in church history you don't trust?
John: Oh,
Jeremy: come to mind?
John: Mm sometimes I wonder about, about Paul. He, he seems like more and more, you know,
Jeremy: Yep
John: controversial, figure, and I, and there
Jeremy: a lot of hot takes on Paul
John: yeah, I don't, I don't know all the details 'cause I, I just don't really have that interest. But I hear, I hear the, the voices. I don't know, man. I don't know what that guy might... know, he might [00:55:00] like, I ain't giving you any wine." Or he may like, dude, here's some 29% alcohol wine." So yeah, I'd probably, I- Paul
Paul would
Jeremy: Who knows football?
John: yeah, who knows with Paul?
Jeremy: Oh, I love it. All right. What's something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
John: Oh, man, dude. You put a knife in my heart. No. One of the prob- one of the liabilities of being a spiritual person is that there's always the possibility of some sort of, like, and of course, having mystical experiences, it's like, whoa, maybe that could happen. Maybe God's gonna, maybe God's gonna do this thing. seeing the thing that I, know, God, yeah, I believe, I [00:56:00] believe, I believe, just like go down, this, this earthly thing. As I'm like trying to maintain this faith seeing it, know, seeing this thing crash and burn over here while I'm have, all this supposed faith, um You know, that was a big, that was a big revelation of like, know, I, I grew up, I mean, not grew up, I spent a lot of time in, in the charismatic world. And of course, you know the charisma- if y- I don't know what your church background is, but the charismatic world of course is all about?
The possibility of God. um You know, I've become much more of a deist God. I believe more it's more in a deist God, that God is, sitting back, just kinda like, "Okay, human beings, I gave you all these facilities. Yeah, I'm gonna intercede here, I'm gonna intercede there, but you know, I'm not gonna stop a war." I don't know, I don't know. I, maybe I don't know all of war [00:57:00] history, but I don't know if God's ever been like, miraculously as, we're, we can be, can believe that. Oh yeah, God can do anything, and so, getting through that kind of muck in the mire of like these expectations of like, God can do these miraculous things when, know, he really wants me to just go out and, give the guy 10 bucks so he can get a fricking burger, instead of like, "Oh man, maybe he's gonna like see Jesus and, go off and," and that's, that's been very difficult thing and, and yeah, that's kinda where I'm at with, with that
Jeremy: Nice
John: and it's very, it's, it was, it was a painful, painful change
Jeremy: What's something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
John: Well, in the real world, the advantages of ChatGPT, who's v- been very helpful in helping me write my book. My spiritual life, I think, I don't know if it's It's kind of surprisingly not [00:58:00] surprising, is just my continued push toward what I'm really trying to do in life. That my, know, that my, that my purposes and goals have not been fulfilled, know? And maybe we can talk again and I can tell you all about Tabloid, my novel, and, how all these things are still Like, my purpose is to, my purpose is to fix Christianity, I don't see myself re- re- retreating from Christianity in, at least in my heart, 'cause I really can't. But I really want to. I see some, major, fault lines that have been, plaguing the church for God knows how long, and that continue to plague.
And it's, and the answers are a lot on this side of, deconstruction, and yeah, so.
Jeremy: [00:59:00] Well, I like it. All right, John, is there anything else that I have not asked you about that you have to throw in before we wrap up this episode or it wouldn't feel right?
John: I'll tell you one more. Well, oh my gosh. I always say, "I'll tell you one more story, then I'll te- tell you two more." I'll tell you one more story, and this one, this one, this one's a humorous one, but it also revolves, it I mean, it also involves a swear word. And this, and I claim that this is a voice of God or a reasonable facsimile.
I'm walking down the
Jeremy: swore at you? All right, let's hear it
John: I'm walking down the street just, like every other day, and it was like the voice came from right here. But it was like my shadow, you know how shadow will follow you as you're walking? And it's like the voice came from, from the sh- from... But it came from right here and it was f- it was like step by step, and it goes like this. It [01:00:00] goes, it goes, "Doyle, you don't know shit." Just like that. I mean, I hear this voice. It's like, "Doyle, you don't know shit." And so the, so, so the first question, where'd, where'd the voice come from? Did it
come from me? Did it come from God? Or did it come from, we'll just say the devil, the, the dark side?
Because that's something that, the devil could say. So, put it to the test. Did it come from me? Yeah, I've said that to myself 1,000 times. But, it's always like, it was a lot harsher, like, 'cause I'm, I... That's always been, one of my trademarks, has been very hard on myself.
And so I, "Yeah, Doyle, you don't know shit," and it's always this, feeling of, ugh, was it the devil that said it? know, if the devil, like I said, devil can say, "Oh, yeah, Doyle, you don't, you don't know shit." Well, when, you know- When that kind of voice comes, man, that goes deep in shame.
That's [01:01:00] what that intention is. That's what that reaction is. the way that I reacted was I immediately started laughing. I mean, like joyous, like laughter. And what I realized is this is how really good friends talk to one another, and, and, and, and I'm I've always been a, a swearer, ever since I was in first grade, and so this is part of my language.
It's part of my language, language with God. Not only... in all the different forms and facets, because it's a language of very, it's a language of intensity, know? That's what swearing is to me, is like intensity. And of course, everything in my spiritual life is intense. and so, it's like, I could hear one of my friends that I've been fr- friends forever saying the same thing, "Doyle, know shit," in that way that really good friends know [01:02:00] one another. I can be in the worst mood on any day, and all I have to do is think about, "Doyle, you don't know shit," and I just start laughing and my heaviness leaves. And I think that's, that's t- truly the sign, that's truly God, is when we can experience joy and when we can experience peace. So I love that story. We'll end it on that. Thank you, Jeremy,
Jeremy: All right, John, if someone wants to connect with your work and connect with you online, what's the best way for them to do that?
John: johndoylespiritual on Instagram. And also, if you want to go see my history of my writing, you can go to johndoyleauthor.com, and that's, I have all my screenplays and no- and Tabloid, my novel, I'll soon have, my, The Religion of [01:03:00] Grace, the, m- my, my book. And yeah, that's it
Jeremy: Very cool. Well, hey, we have appreciated getting the chance to talk mystical experiences with you today, and open the door to other people experiencing that as well, and we got to be a part of your best glass of wine ever. So thank you so much for joining us today
John: Thank you so much, Jeremy
Jeremy: All right, everybody. We'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray
