Humor for Church Trauma (with Joshua Colburn) | Ep. 84

September 09, 2026

Joshua Colburn spent twenty years inside a megachurch, and now he's known as the "Original Sinfluencer." In this conversation, he and Jeremy dig into why humor and satire might be the most honest tools survivors of church trauma have, how fear gets used to keep people in line, and the day Joshua grew his hair out as an act of rebellion the moment he walked away. The heart of it is his story of being diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia only after leaving, and realizing the church had spent years reading his neurodivergence as a gift of the Holy Spirit and leaning on it to keep him from seeing the harm. If you love the church, parts of this will be hard to hear. If the church left a mark on you, this might be the episode that helps you heal from it.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/zWrTv6TlI4k

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My new book, The Edge of the Inside, is now available. You can get a signed copy or in whatever form you prefer: https://www.edgeoftheinside.com/

Join the online community and get access to exclusive content and experiences: https://www.jeremyjernigan.com/online-community

Trying to make sense of faith? Download my free Deconstruction Field Guide. It's a ten-page resource to help you navigate what's next so you don't have to do it alone. https://www.jeremyjernigan.com/opt-in

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Find Joshua online on all platforms at:

@originalsinfluencer
@joshuacolburnmusic
@prezmoymusic

Episode Transcript

Humor for Church Trauma (with Joshua Colburn) | Ep. 84
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[00:00:00]

Jeremy: Hey, everybody. Welcome to Cabernet and Pray, where we drink good wine and we explore the deeper story of Christianity. I'm so excited for today's episode. It is a fantastic interview with someone that I've been wanting to talk to for a while now. But I wanna give you a heads-up if you will. Today's episode might be hard for some of you.

We're gonna talk to someone who was deeply involved in the church for decades and walked away from it seven years ago, and is very honest and transparent about the things that he thought were unhealthy, the things that he thought were damaging. And a lot of content he makes today is aimed at getting Christians to rethink some of the things that we think are normal.

And so for some of you, this might be a really tough episode to listen to because you just love the church, and it's gonna feel like he's bashing it. Others of you, you might really appreciate this episode and feel like finally someone is calling it out. Finally, someone is naming [00:01:00] these different things.

Uh, but as we discussed in episode 77, not too long ago with Wes, those of us who love the church have to be willing to critique the church. We have to be willing to say when the church isn't doing, uh, what it needs to do because we love it. And I think that's a phenomenal way to understand today's conversation of this is a way, if you love the church, to understand what is broken about it and what we need to take seriously in order to create a healthier version.

This is a conversation with Joshua Colburn. He's an ex-megachurch pastor turned ex-vangelical, creator, and producer. He spent 20 years inside of a megachurch, and he now tells the truth about what happened there. He's known online as the original sinfluencer on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and Substack.

He co-runs Good Vibes Music Studio with his wife, who is an artist and producer as well. He [00:02:00] releases singer-songwriter music as Joshua Colburn, and he produces other artists. He's also, in case you haven't picked up, that he does a lot of things. He's a beekeeper and a gardener who uses humor and insider language to give survivors relief and language for their church trauma.

This one is going to be healing for some of you, I suspect.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot.

Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.

So if I get a [00:03:00] little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.

We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast, and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.

It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know.

I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought [00:04:00] a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology. So I, oh- I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is... But here we are.

Queer we are. Beer we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. I'm an emotional guy. Paired with a half a glass of wine, I'm beet red, sweating, and about to cry. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you had your guests drink wine.

It makes sense now. Yeah. I get it. A little bit of liquid courage here to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice. Cabernet and pray, yeah.

Jeremy: Well, I introduce myself as a recovering megachurch pastor, and my guest today refers to himself as the original sinfluencer. And for the record, I think he wins. Welcome to the pod, Joshua

Joshua Colburn: Hey, hey. Thanks for having me. I [00:05:00] appreciate it

Jeremy: I have been looking forward to this one for a while. kind of a fanboy of Joshua's work online, and so this is very exciting to talk about, all of the stuff that I regularly obsess over your content, so this is gonna be fun. Before we get into that, though, I'm getting ahead of myself.

Let's talk about the wine we're drinking. He had to borrow a bottle opener from a neighbor. So that's how this is going so far, it's gonna be good. I'll talk about what I'm drinking, and then we'll see what you got. I have a 2024 Gray Rock Reserve Sauvignon Blanc. That, that bad boy is humming on a hot Arizona afternoon.

This is from Marlborough, New Zealand. And like great New Zealand Sauvignon Blancs, I'm getting just a, a huge hit of the acidity. Then I get the grapefruit, citrus notes on it, which is awesome. Getting bell pepper, which is [00:06:00] a lot of the herbaceous notes you get in this. But then fun tasting note, as I was tasting this a minute ago, got trolli gummy bears or like the little gummy worms.

You know what I'm talking about?

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: Like that's... I'm getting that vibe in it. So I like trolli gummy worms, so that's a fun, uh, thing to have as well. And then I'm gonna-- I try to do this whenever I can. I'm gonna connect this glass to our conversation today, Joshua.

Joshua Colburn: Okay

Jeremy: are you ready for this transition?

This is gonna be the smoothest church transition you've ever

Joshua Colburn: I'm s- I'm so ready, yes

Jeremy: Okay, this is a reserve wine from New Zealand. But fun fact, in New Zealand, the, the term reserve is not a regulated term, which means each producer gets to decide what that term means for them. If you compare it to places like Spain or Italy, it is highly regulated, where they have a legal minimum aging requirement before you can use that word.

Not so in New [00:07:00] Zealand. as I was thinking about that, that reminds me of how many things that we say in the church that we th- we say them as if they are regulated, and there is this agreed upon authority, and yet in reality, it's just us deciding this is what we... We made this up. So that's my connection to my Reserve Sauvignon Blanc today.

That's what I got in the glass. Joshua, what are you drinking?

Joshua Colburn: So, you know, it's interesting 'cause I, I feel kinda lame here in the sense that I'm, like, right next door to Napa. Um, and so I, I don't drink much. Um, I, I tried to do, like, the wine thing. Like, I used to go to Napa and, like, do this, like, bougie, like, you know, wine tour. Um, but that said, I, I like a good cab. Um, but I don't, I don't really drink anymore 'cause it kinda, like, the older I get, the less things I feel like I can drink.

I don't know, like, what the fuck is [00:08:00] happening with that? Like,

Jeremy: yeah

Joshua Colburn: like coffee, like I'm starting to be like, "Whoa, I gotta slow down on coffee," and that's like, that's, that's a w- yeah, I'm just, I'm getting old. Um, but, uh, it's a cab. Uh, I believe Coppola is from Napa, but, uh, who fucking knows? I don't know. But I do know-

Jeremy: owns so much at this point

Joshua Colburn: Yeah.

But I do know, like, the... You'll probably know better than I, um, with Napa, like, kinda to the reserve thing, uh, there's, like, a specific percentage of grape that you have to have from actual, like, Napa County in your wine to call it a Napa wine, and I thought that that was really, really interesting. So I'll tie that into this loosely with, um, fuck, I don't know, but th- there's something there, something brilliant.

Jeremy: So

Joshua Colburn: But,

Jeremy: a sip of it

Joshua Colburn: Now let me, let me take a little sip here

Jeremy: So as a guy that doesn't drink a ton of wine, what's [00:09:00] your, what's your take on it?

Joshua Colburn: That kind of makes me miss wine, I'm not gonna lie. Like, I'm like, "Yeah, this is, this is nice." Um, but I get r- and I'm curious to see if this happens today, 'cause by the end of this podcast- I might be sounding like this ... 'cause honestly, every time I drink wine I get fucking stuffy, and that's, I hate saying it, but that's like the bitchy reason I don't drink wine is 'cause it makes me a little stuffy.

Jeremy: All right, listeners, you get to decide. Compare him, hi- the way he sounds right now end of the episode, and, uh, maybe if you fast-forward, you can just compare it, and we can, we can see how that works. I love it. So

Joshua Colburn: It, a- and fun fact real quick, if you listen to my voice, uh, fast-forwarded, I sound exactly like Ben Shapiro. It's fucking insane.

Jeremy: And

Joshua Colburn: He's awesome.

Jeremy: content is so similar, that's what's shocking.

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, exactly

Jeremy: All right. So I was thinking back to where I discovered you, [00:10:00] and my journey with you began on TikTok, like I'm sure, like I'm sure it has for a lot of people who are aware of you. I discovered you through a song where you put music to the literal words of Leviticus 26 about eating your sons and daughters.

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

my anger, I'll be hostile towards you. I myself will punish you

for your sin seven times over

Jeremy: And I think I left you a comment when I saw it, like, "But why is this song so catchy?" Right? 'Cause I was like, had no business making that song live rent-free in [00:11:00] my head for as long as it did. Like, that, that bothered me more than, "Holy cow, this is horrific to sing about, and yet, now it's in my head." But my immediate realization is, okay, this is someone, you and your wife i- in particular in this video, who has figured out how to bring humor to some pretty bizarre church, Christianity, religious stuff, right, that we all have, and yet a lot of people are like, don't really know what to do with that. And you're like, "I'm gonna put it to music and just go through the whole absurdity of all that." So with that in mind, I just wanna open it up. one, hear your journey. You have seen the door, you have seen, backstage of all of it. You now have a very different perspective.

Walk us through, for, for a listener that may not have, have heard your journey yet, what

Joshua Colburn: Sure.

Jeremy: your experience in, in the [00:12:00] church?

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, I'll give a, uh, the, the short version. Um, but I was-- Like, the first thing I always like to tell people is I was never... Uh, I didn't grow up in the church, so I didn't have family members that were, like, hardcore churchgoing type and then invited me to... Like, I was just born into church. So I started going when I was about 14 years old.

Um, and I got... Uh, it's like, it's funny 'cause the youth pastor's name was Jimbo. Like, it just fucking fits, you know what I mean? Like, uh,

Jeremy: Of

Joshua Colburn: and, uh, uh, so a friend, like, brought me to church and, um, I, I was-- I grew up in a really, really affluent, uh, wealthy area. I grew up in Carmel, California, right near Pebble Beach.

And, um, but I was not rich. I was a poor kid in a very, very wealthy town. Um, and my parents had some struggles, uh, financially and, and with some, some substance abuse. And, um, so I was kinda left on my [00:13:00] own. I was like one of those '80s kids that my parents literally needed the reminder that like, like the, "It's eight o'clock.

Do you know where your kids are?" Um, did you know about that? Did you know that was a thing? Yeah, yeah. Like, my fucking parents, like, legit would, they'd be like, "Oh yeah, we should go find our kid." Um, but I

Jeremy: rule was just the streetlight rule, right?

Joshua Colburn: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeremy: I'd be on my bike, and I'd be like, "Ah, gotta go."

Joshua Colburn: Yep. Yeah, you know, it's funny, I'm

Jeremy: booking it home

Joshua Colburn: still best friends with a guy, um, that I, that was my best friend in, in middle school, and we were talking. So his dad was the senior vice president of Intel Computers. Um, and so one of, like, the richest men in the country, like, just, like... And, and so but his, his dad didn't live with him, so we had his house in Carmel to ourselves as, like, two middle schoolers all through high school had just, like, a Carmel house on the beach, um, of a re- very wealthy man that we just kind of raised ourselves in.

And so but with that, I got invited to [00:14:00] church, and I felt like church was the thing that was going to, like, piece it all together for me, you know? A- and, and they were telling me it was, too. I, for the first time, I had found a place that, like, really welcomed me. They immediately saw that I was talented. And I think the second week I was in church I was up on stage leading worship.

Um, I, which I didn't know what worship was. I did not know what it was at all, and so I took a Tool song and I changed some of the words in- into, um, like, a worship song. Like, it's fucking crazy to look back on it now, 'cause now I'm kinda doing that again in a weird way. Like, it's, it's, it, it, totally full cycle.

Um-

Jeremy: I love the, just the idea of someone who is familiar with Tool in worship that Sunday like, "Man, this thing slaps. Like,

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, totally

Jeremy: this?"

Joshua Colburn: Well, and it's funny 'cause the song is, I remember it vividly, it's like this mocking song, and it's like, "Jesus Christ, why don't you come save my life?" And I was like, "But if we sang it fucking serious, [00:15:00] then it's a worship song."

Jeremy: Yeah. It's all in the tone

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, totally. So, um, uh, but yeah. So, so I kinda got quickly sucked into, to that and, and was just intoxicated by it, you know?

Um, I came in with a story. Uh, because it was a small town, people knew my family. Um, and so like I, I was this... I was tokenized immediately in this place. Um, and then, you know, long story short, I, I met a, a girl through a missions trip in high school. She introduced me to a church that was a couple hours away from where I grew up, and at 18, I was s- hired by this megachurch, um, and basically, like given the keys to a really like fancy place and said like, you know, "Have fun."

Um, at the same time I was getting into the church, I was also in a band where I was the only Christian in the band. Um, and we were touring extensively. We were doing a lot. I was on Warped [00:16:00] Tour for a couple years in a row, and we were, we were doing a lot, and we got to a place where we were pretty much about to sign a major label deal, and God called me into full-time ministry, and I could t- unpack what that fucking looks like, uh, later if you want.

But like, so I, I, I, I was faced with this dilemma for a few years. The church actually sent me out on Warped Tour, um, like they still paid me, uh, while I was on sal- or while I was on staff there as, as long as I like considered myself a missionary. So they were essentially sending me out as a missionary, and I thought that that sounded good 'cause I'd still be able to like make ends meet while on tour, but there was like regular check-ins.

Uh, and then the weight of that on my shoulders, again, it wasn't like a Christian band, so I'd be like, we'd be at... A- after a show, like everybody would be like, "Let's go to a strip club," and I would literally be in the van praying for everybody in the strip club.

Jeremy: your [00:17:00] paycheck

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, yeah. Right. Totally. You know? And so, um, it, it put a lot of weight on me, and I was in my young 20s at the time.

And so I had, you know, people in my ear from the band side of it, managers and booking agents and all these people, but then I had the church in my ear, and some of the elders were not holding back, you know? And these are people that like I really looked up to in the hierarchy of the church. Like, these are the people that other people respect, so you have to respect them.

And they're telling me things like, literally I had a guy tell me, "God will take your voice away from you." Like, "You might not be able to sing if you decide to, to, to leave ministry and go into this full time." Um, that paired with like a few moments where like I remember I was backstage and it was like a I've made it kind of- a moment.

Like I'm, I'm surrounded by all these bands that I grew up listening to and, and idolizing, and I remember having this weird conversation with God, [00:18:00] like, but it wasn't with God, it was like about God in my head going like, "I would give up that for this." You know? It was like, uh, one of those fleeting thoughts of like I would give up the church thing to do this for the rest of my life And that moment fucking ruined me because the guilt I felt from that moment moving forward ate me alive.

Jeremy: Hmm.

Joshua Colburn: And because I had a very human moment, I thought, "Yeah, that was the devil, and this is going to... Ultimately, this isn't gonna lead... This is going to be things like my voice is gonna be gone, my influence is gonna be gone, like my leadership," all these things. And so I decided to go full-time into ministry. I left the band, hurt a lot of people, um, and, uh, I thought that was the beginning of my life in a lot of ways, but it was the beginning of a lot of trauma, like kind of fully going into megachurch.

Um, caveat with me, too, I, I didn't go to school, I didn't go to [00:19:00] seminary, I did not go to, uh, Bible college. Um, they had convinced me that I didn't need to do that. And so, and, and so they were, um... And a lot of it... There's a lot I have to explain in this, but, uh, uh, I think they realized that they had like a hidden gem in me 'cause I was talented, and I was able to write, and I was...

You know, I saw things differently. But also I was insecure, and I was really, really susceptible to any sort of voice in my ear. And so because of that, like I got a little bit of a longer leash from the church because I was like kinda tokenized, the like the cool guy, and, "We'll let him do that 'cause he's bringing people in."

Um, but, uh, all of this stuff started to really, really, really unwind and unravel as I got to like the 10th year of ministry. Um, and I know a lot of people will hear 20 years in ministry, that's a really fucking long time to figure it out. Um, but a lot of those years I was trapped and trying to [00:20:00] clean up a space that, uh, that was pretty fucked up.

I thought that that was my mission. Sorry, I just jumped timelines like 10 times. Uh, but yeah, so back to where I was at. I, I, I... So I, I'm now in the church. My influence is growing in the church. Leadership is recognizing me more and more. They have me start leading worship on Sunday mornings, um, like on the b- big church is what we call it.

Do you call it big church? Did you guys call it fucking big church? That's so funny.

Jeremy: big church.

Joshua Colburn: Big church.

Jeremy: What are you even doing if you're not

Joshua Colburn: yeah, if you're not calling it big church, you were never in a big church. You know what I mean?

Jeremy: You are not

Joshua Colburn: You're a poser. Um, no, and so I started leading for the main stage, and there was a whole bunch of politics in that because they essentially pushed out the worship leader to bring me in there, and that kind of Game of Thrones megachurch bullshit was going on.

Jeremy: ' Cause you were

Joshua Colburn: But yeah, more talented and younger, right? Like this guy w- he had hit the expiration date

Jeremy: I mean, that's [00:21:00] what they're looking for

Joshua Colburn: Yep. And they didn't have to pay me much, and this goes back to what I was saying, because I didn't go to seminary. Because, and they would actually show me, like, "Here's what you'd be making if you went to seminary."

And all of these pastors around me were getting paid for to go to seminary and to do all this, like, th- this learning. Uh, they're telling me, "No, no, no, no, no, you're so anointed. Like, you don't need this. Like, really, like, this is gonna be wasted on you." Um, at the same time, they're showing me the fucking sheet of paper of where I'd be making more money if I went to college, right?

You know? And they had pro- exactly. And they had programs set up for this, for pastors to go to college, um, and to, to get their seminary degree and all that. And so looking back on it now, I, I really do think they were keeping me sick 'cause they, they kinda knew, like, "Hey, we can get a lot out of this guy, um, with very little [00:22:00] investment into him."

Um, and so they kept me busy. You know, every time the, the school conversation kinda came up, something would be put on my plate that was a little different that would kinda keep me busy Um, towards about like the, I, I had just had my second child, and I really was not feeling like my belief system had really changed.

I no longer believed in hell. Um, and I was just fucking done. I was just like, this is my... The whole life that I had built, the career I had built, I realized it was... I looked in the mirror and I was paper thin. And I was like, "This isn't real. None of this is real. Um, holy shit, I need to get some authenticity back under me, um, or I'm gonna, I'm gonna lose myself completely."

And, and so I did. I took that jump and I, I left the church and fuck, that was really, really... I mean, that was traumatic. That was probably the hardest thing I've ever done. It's about seven [00:23:00] years ago. Yeah, seven years ago now I've, I've been out. And for the first like three years, um, when I left the church, they, they didn't do me any favors.

It was not a clean split. Um, and so there was some allegations that were made and like there were things that were said about me. Like looking back on it now, I'm like, "Where the fuck did you even get that from?" Like I was never that guy in the church. Like I, I'm still not that guy today. But I heard all these rumors and, and what it was is the church was, they wanted to, they, they didn't, they knew I was a draw at the church and I was well-loved at the church.

And so something dramatic and drastic needed to take place to cut that tie. Um, and to, and for them, they were always worried about losing people. Like we don't want the numbers to, to drop. And so, um, the church ended up sending out an email to I think it was like 30,000 people, the, the email list or maybe more of like, "Hey, we need to be praying for Joshua.

He's having his dark night of the soul." [00:24:00] And they left it at that. And then, and, and then the church never saw me on stage again. And, and so it created speculation in my community and so I, I basically for two years hunkered down and just became a dad. Uh, I fell in love with my now wife and, and this was right at the time during COVID And so I was kind of forced to lock down with everybody else, and just, it was a good experience for me to heal and regain myself.

Um, and I, I... And my wife was telling me, "Hey, you gotta get on TikTok." And I'm like, "I'm not gonna get on some fucking dance app. Like, that sounds stupid. Like, I'm an old-ass man. No, I'm not doing that," you know? And, uh, and so she was like, "No, you got, you gotta see." And so I, I got on, and the first video I saw that came across my f- my feed was Eve Was Framed.

And I, uh, and she was just talking about her experience at Bethel, and I was blown away. I thought, "Oh my God, there's people out there that have had, like, s- experiences like this. I'm not [00:25:00] on an island. I thought I was totally alone." And I remember I just started messaging people, 'cause... And no one fucking responded.

Like, not a single person responded. But still, I was like, "I had found something, like this community, and this is amazing." And so I observed for a couple years, and then I started, um... And then one day I woke up and I was like, "Hey, I'm an ex-pastor. I'm gonna start talking about my story." And then boom, I had 2,000 followers, and then that kind of just kept going.

A, a y- about a year into it, we had this idea, um, that... 'Cause I always joke around, like a lot of these songs we listen to on the radio are, sound like worship songs, you know? And like they have the emotional lift of a worship song. And so The Story of My Life by One Direction, my kids at the time like loved that song.

We would like sing it. And so I was joking around with Prez, and I started leading it as a worship song in our house. I was like, "Sing it out, Story of My Life," you know? And, um, and so we made a video of us worshiping to Story of [00:26:00] My Life, and it kinda hit. And we were like, "Whoa, that's, that's cool." And then I was like, "Well, what if we..."

You know, there's this Bible verse in Deuteronomy where it talks about chopping off a dude's fucking hand if, or ta- chopping off a wife's hand if she touches another man's dick while they're fighting. I'm like, "That's crazy. Like, let's write a song about that." And so Tristan and Sage were born. Um, what we didn't expect out of it was that we were gonna find healing, and we were gonna find, like for us, this is our pathway to face this thing that we built into our core system.

Jeremy: Wow

Joshua Colburn: and, it allowed us to face it for the first time. But what then we noticed is it allowed a lot of other people to face that too. And so we were not expecting this to be a thing of healing. We were not expecting this to be, um, like a cornerstone in people's deconstruction. Um, fuck, it happened though.

It was the weirdest thing. It was just like wha- it was a God thing, you know? Like [00:27:00] it was n- Um, but yeah, to see people actually, like, finding healing and finding, like, a pathway back into... Some people have said, "I can go into worship and worship now because I've heard a Will It Swear worship song," you know?

And it's like, it's so bizarre. So it kind of grew beyond us, but we found healing, and other people found healing, and plus we find it really fucking funny. But on the other side is we get a lot of people commenting and talking about how we're, we are heathens, we are leading people astray. We, and, and, and it's always a frustrating comment to read, which we get, like, thousands of them about that, because I have a feeling if I sat down with a lot of these people and had a conversation, we would find that we see eye to eye on a lot of this stuff, that what I'm fighting for, me, m- your version of what I'm, you think I'm mocking, is literally me doing the same thing that y'all do with the clobber passages.

Jeremy: Mm-hmm.

Joshua Colburn: I know this weapon [00:28:00] really well. I've used it my whole life. I still know how to swing the sword. And so for me, this is that, you know? Like, I feel comfortable walking to the, the, the sword store and picking one up and swinging it with you, you know? Is there a sword store? That'd be fucking cool if there was

Jeremy: They're p- I mean, they're probably, it's probably in Texas

Joshua Colburn: Probably in Texas

Jeremy: Sorry to all of our Texas listeners. I, I do love you guys, but your state is kind of crazy, let's be

Joshua Colburn: Yeah. That it totally... The fact that you could buy like fireworks that'll blow your fucking hand off at a gas station there is pretty cool. That's pretty cool

Jeremy: Okay. So there's so much, I don't even know where I wanna go with this 'cause there's so many questions I have for you. Um, okay, so for people who have seen the Tristan and Sage songs or, uh, if, if you haven't, I promise you after you listen to this episode, you're gonna go find these. Uh, I'll, I'll link it [00:29:00] all in the sh- in the show notes.

But y- you said something to me before we, we started recording that kinda blew me away a little bit. You said that your wife is the one that writes the character Tristan for you because you have a hard time even doing it. And w- what I find funny is y- you're obviously... It's obviously... Well, I mean, maybe not obvious to some people.

It's obvious to me it's a parody, but you're taking something, you know, that is there, and then you're, you're exaggerating it, right? You're, you're kinda blowing it up to show the absurdity of it, right? And I think about, you had a video not too long ago where, uh, Presley's behind you, and she's, like, raising her hands, and you kept telling her to raise her hands higher or high- and it was, like, the whole thing wasn't good enough. And I probably watched that thing six times in a row because I just thought, like, "This is it." Like, you are so capturing in this, like, the way that so many men in these churches treat women. And it was [00:30:00] just like, but it's done in this funny little skit, you know, skit-type thing. And yet there's... To, to any of us who have been in it, we're like, "Oh, I recognize that."

Like, I know the sound of that. I know the, the flavor of that. Uh, now again, not as absurdly as you're making it. But tell us what 'Cause y- you've said that that's hard for you. What's it like for you to embody that when you know, you know, she's coming up with this from her own experiences, so she has experienced these kinda things.

And this is still going on over the place still. W- how, I mean, how do you see, like, your art bringing healing to others, even in the people who don't like it?

Joshua Colburn: Yeah.

I, you know, it's interesting I, 'cause a couple things. One, I feel like I just defined that, um, in the sense of for me. Like, I just... 'Cause I, I, I throw around the, the question a lot, what is this page for? You know? What, like, what is it? And I know that there's, like, [00:31:00] healing that's happening, and I know that there's community that's happening.

But I think, like, where I feel like I'm called to or led to or whatever that may be is giving people who were in the church a bit of language to surround the craziness that they experienced and, and, and, and just kind of breaking it down. Like, you know, I'm an artist. Some of my favorite artists, like, the, the lyric- the lyrics that they write are the simplest lyrics just said in a profound way, you know?

And so, like, I, I really like when people can take things that we hear all the time and kind of break it down and, and give, like, a different view to what that is. And, um, I've always kind of carried a little bit of a different view with me, and so, you know, that's kind of what, what I, my offering basically, and I'm finding that a lot of people are finding...

are resonating with and finding healing around the, you know, the language that, that I'm using and to talk about some of this stuff. [00:32:00] Um, to the Tristan and Sage thing, yeah, Prez writes Tristan because a, a big misconception about me is that I was that guy. Um, and that, that's where, like, that's what I evolved from, and that's one of the hard things of satire, you know, is you can't always explain the satire.

But the truth is, when I was in the church, I was always fighting for social justice. I was always fighting for the LGBTQIA community. Like, I was the fucking squeaky wheel. I was the annoying source. I just had enough talent for them to not wanna get rid of me, um, in that space. And so, uh, yeah. So I never felt comfortable being that guy.

Like, in fact, even when I was in the church, I was always trying to avoid being that, like, sleazy pastor guy. So it's really funny 'cause there are moments where we're like, we're doing... That video in particular where she's lifting her hands, her shirt pops up, and, um, on the [00:33:00] take before, it was, like, a better take.

She was like, "No, you've gotta pull my shirt down. You can't let my stomach show. Like, you, you're my husband, and I am..." You know? Like... And so, like, it, we're... I'm literally fucking up the part of Pastor Tristan as Presley. He's like, "No, you need to go harder." Like, that... A dick would never say something like that.

Yeah, totally. And I'm like, "I don't know how. I was raised by women. Fuck."

Jeremy: That's amazing. W- okay, like, just as an artist emotionally, does it drain you to do those? Do you find it, like, exhausting? Or it's like, "It's fine, I'm just, I'm playing a, a, a part"?

Joshua Colburn: No, it's fun, honestly. And, and here's the, the weird, this is so bizarre. It, it's, it's, but it scratches this weird improv led in the spirit itch. Um, we don't do it as much. You know, we, we, Tristan and S- we did a lot of Tristan and Sage a few years ago, and that was, like, kind of our main content. [00:34:00] Um, we're not doing it as much as now, although they still make an appearance.

But, um... Oh, I totally lost track of where I was going. My brain. Um

Fuck. I have, I'm dyslexic and ADHD, so like, uh, throw in a tiny sip of alcohol that I'm already feel... I'm such a lightweight. I'm such a fucking Christian right now I'm like the Christian pastor on, on the retreat where, like, it's the first time he's seen other pastors drink wine. He's like, "This is cool."

Jeremy: You guys, you guys can do this? I love it

Joshua Colburn: uh, I think I was talking about Tristan and Sage. Oh, yeah. So

Jeremy: We're

Joshua Colburn: Siloam. How how that feels for you

Jeremy: how that feels for you

Joshua Colburn: Yes, how it feels for me. Um, oh, yeah. So, so there are moments when we do this, a, a lot of what we are doing is improv. So even a lot of the melodies and stuff we're writing, we'll throw just like a Bible verse up on the screen and just kinda sing over [00:35:00] it. Um, we used to do this thing where Prez would bring in like a box, uh, like a food box, and I'd just write a worship song off the ingredients and make it sound really br- beautiful, you know?

Um, but we started doing that, and... Ah, fuck, man, I keep losing my ... Um, oh, so we get in these moments where we're doing this kinda improv worship, and we are... It literally feels the same. It feels the same as the same moment when I was at minute 17 on the worship, on the stage, and I knew I had until minute 21, and I have this chunk of time I could do what I want with, and I'm gonna take people through a, a moment.

And it feels the exact same. The chills, the, the, the emotional drainage afterwards, like there's a whole emotional response in it. It is wild. It's the same experience. Singing, "Give up your son so that we may eat him," is the same experience as, "Spirit lead me where my trust is without [00:36:00] borders." It's crazy

Jeremy: We might need to let that breathe for a second for our listeners just to hit pause, take a sip of wine, collect themselves. That's a, that's a, that's a reality right there you're dropping on us of, the feeling that you feel being the same. And you know what it reminds me of? I, I have, you know, for many years, like, like any good tourist, a- anytime I'm in a country that has old churches, I'll go and, you know, tour the old churches, and it's, oh, super cool.

And, you know, always, if I'm, if... especially if I'm there on a church trip, you know, it's always this talk of like, "Can't you just feel the presence of God?" and da da da da. Well, uh, for our 20th anniversary, my wife and I went to Spain and, um, again, a TikTok connection. She found, uh, a winery on, on a TikTok video, someone saying like, "You gotta check out this winery" in some bizarre kinda region in Spain that we weren't even gonna go to, but we, like, literally made a trip to go, to go do this. [00:37:00] they had this underground winery that they made, and off the top of my head, I think it's something like they spent, like, $48 million on or something. I mean, just absurd. And it was made and owned by two architects, okay? So this is what they do, and they basically had a bunch of money. They're like, "We're, we're gonna make an awesome winery just 'cause we can." And so I'm touring this winery, and it's literally taking my breath away, and then I had the same experience of, this feels like I'm touring Notre Dame. The, the feeling was the same, and then I was like, oh, maybe it's the space.

Joshua Colburn: Hmm

Jeremy: maybe it's not there's a presence of God that's overwhelming re- right now. Maybe the space itself triggers us, affects us, shapes us, and we've always been saying it's this one thing, but when you go to a... So I started calling that place the Cathedral of Wine, because for me, it felt exactly the same. And what you're saying is, as the person singing the song, you can swap [00:38:00] out the lyrics.

It's the, it's the building. The, the, the mechanism is the same.

Joshua Colburn: Yeah. Yeah. A- a- and that's, that's one of the things that Pres and I have been just really talking about heavily lately in our, like, private conversations, is how the church has capitalized on the human experience, and how the church has named and claimed the human experience for, for their own. You know?

Like, you can't... You're not having the human experience unless you're in this club. Um, and we are finding all sorts of places that that is not true, you know? And, and it's, it's been... That in itself has been a release of being able to let go, uh, of certain things, certain practices that kind of kept me trapped in this world of, "Am I on the right path?"

You know, 'cause I feel like for deconstructing and where I'm at, that was a lot of my journey, is like, "Is this... This feels like I'm supposed to be, like, doing this, but is this right? Like, is God really gonna s- is he gonna send me to hell right [00:39:00] now?" You know? And so, but once you get through that kind of scary part, at least for me, I found that there was li- I literally, it was like, "Oh, the grass is greener."

Like, I can, I can still maintain some sor- sense of spirituality. I can figure it out, and I don't... Like, I'm not on a stage figuring it out. I'm not in front of people figuring it out. I'm like, "Oh, I can just kind of... I don't have to be a professional at knowing what I believe anymore. This is great." That freedom alone was like, holy shit.

And tha- in some sense, that brought me closer to whatever God looks like to me today. I don't know

Jeremy: It's interesting, I get, you know, I, I would say I'm not as, you know, in your face with my content as much of what you make, but I obviously piss off a lot of the same people, and I'm amazed how often they try to scare me. They try to threaten me. They, you know, they'll throw Bible verses at me all day. And one of the lines, um, you know, I, I'll just say something to the effect of your, your fear has no power here. Like, I'll just respond to them. Like, [00:40:00] whatever you think this is doing to me, I just want you to know it's having zero of that effect on me. Like, your fear has no power here. And it's funny 'cause you start to see there's all these methods that we have to get people to do what we want them to do, and a lot of it is fear-based, and so we, we scare people, we say these things, we threaten these things, and, you know, your story just weaves that in of, you know, what was said to you. But I, I think people listening to this right now probably have had their own journey of, like, trying to decipher the fear cues, right, that were thrown at them, that were leveled at them, and some of them they may not have even recognized. But I totally agree with you. Once you learn to recognize them and, and you, you go down the road of dismantling them, which does take a little bit of time, such freedom

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: the other side of that.

And then, again, you get to figure out what do you do with Jesus? What do you do with faith? What do you do with church? What do you do with all of that? On the other side of it's not because any of it is scary to you, right? It's because you're choosing it because you find beauty in it or you [00:41:00] find truth in it or whatever. And so I, I love that distinction, and I think you have modeled how to only battle the fear, but then now in a lot of your content, it seems like you're taking all the, all the, go back to the sword image, all the swords that are used against people and you're, you're showing them for what they are.

Like, "Hey, this is a, this is a tool being used against you

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Yeah

and that, that's the goal. I mean, I, I- I'm not, uh... There's a lot of misconceptions about me, which is really funny to even say that. I sound douchey saying that. But, um, w- and the misconceptions are d- uh, that I'm just some, like, troll fucking with people. And it's, I'm, it's always, I'm always appreciative when people see behind that, you know?

'Cause I get it. On the surface, it's shocking. You know, like, Jesus showing his dick to someone [00:42:00] is very shocking, right? And if you're a Christian and you hold this... I, I did a video where Jesus flashed him- s- someone who asked for prayer. And it, and it's so irreverent, and I, I get it. I get that it's shocking.

But if you see this and you are mad at me and not at the person who's online boasting that, that God helped them find their keys, like, that's the fucking problem here, you know? Like, if, if, if the version of Jesus that I'm playing on the internet is your version of Jesus, then I'm going to fucking rip that guy.

Because the version I'm playing is not, in my mind, is not representat- a, a representation of who Jesus is or was, you know? And so it's, it's just, it's, it's a lot. It's a lot to unpack, a lot for people, but that's kinda what you run into when you use humor and, and satire and, and shock value. I'm not gonna lie.

There is a lot of like, yeah, this will shock people. Adding a worship song, or adding a swear word to a worship song is, uh, very shocking for a lot [00:43:00] of people.

Jeremy: Go figure

Joshua Colburn: But the hope, is, is it, it, it, it ruffles enough feathers to make people think. And I've had enough experiences on this where there's been...

I just had it the other day. I was arguing with a guy in the comments, and he goes, "You know what? I see your point. I'm sorry." And I'm like, "What the fuck?" That doesn't happen.

Jeremy: was gonna say that

Joshua Colburn: B-

Jeremy: happens. That's the unicorn, man

Joshua Colburn: but it happens. I've had at least a dozen people. I, there, there is, like, a couple people in my phone, and I, I'm dumb. I didn't save their phone numbers, um, or their names with their phone numbers.

So I'm just, I've been in a conversation with these people for, like, three years, and I don't know who their n- their name or who they are. But one of them was a guy who, like, totally was like, "You're a motherfucker," in the comments, right? And then s- private messaging me. I think he even, like, threatened my family at one point.

Jeremy: Wow, and you gave him your phone number

Joshua Colburn: yeah. And he, uh, apologized. He came back and apologized, and he's like, "I'm in the middle of my own deconstruction, and what you were saying was [00:44:00] scaring the shit out of me. Like, uh, can you be a friend?" And I became his friend. And it's fucking weird 'cause now I'm like, it's like I'm reverse, like, witnessing.

But I'm not even trying to witness to anyone.

I need a small group to go brag about this to. You know? Like, I need a small group where I can be like

Jeremy: have, I have a bone to pick with you. Uh, uh, there was a video I was, I was offended.

Joshua Colburn: Oh, let's go

Jeremy: you did a Jesus turning water into wine,

Joshua Colburn: Mm-hmm

Jeremy: and it was in response like, "Hey Jesus, can you..." I don't remember what your video was. "Can you save the children in, in Palestine?" Or something, and you're

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: but..."

And then you turn all the glasses into wine and I was like, "Okay, come on man, don't use that miracle." But I, I gotta say, so brilliant dude, because what you're inviting whether you're Christian, you know, you're deconstructing, you're not a Christian, you, whatever, [00:45:00] you're inviting people to look at it from a different vantage point of like, is that, is that Jesus?

Right? Is

Joshua Colburn: Right

Jeremy: of that miracle? Is this what we think it is? Because if so, then how the hell do you reconcile the things he's not doing? Right? And I think that's where I love it. And you know, I would suspect, and maybe I'm wrong, that the majority of people who resonate with your content ha- have probably walked away from the church and said like, "Look, I don't want it to, to do anymore." I think my crowd is primarily people who have walked away from the version of church they had, but they're trying to m- m- build something new, right? Rebuild it into some other version. Speak to that group. What, what do you see in your content that, that could be helpful for someone who's not wanting to walk away, but is like, "Look, I can't go back to the way it was, but I'm trying to still follow a, a better view of Jesus."

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, I think our content reaches, um, [00:46:00] I would say it's like 70% deconstructed people and then, you know, a small percentage of Christians just kind of watching from the sidelines going like, "What the..."

Jeremy: Just to see you. What's g-

Joshua Colburn: Or just to see.

Jeremy: crash

Joshua Colburn: Totally. Um, but I'd say the rest are like, uh, believers, like, like actual Christians.

Um, it's kind of funny. I grew up really... There's a... Have you ever heard of Vintage Faith? It's in Santa Cruz, California. And it's pastored by a guy named Dan Kimball. Um, and I, I grew up near Santa Cruz. Like, I'm super into the punk rock scene and, uh, my uncle was in a band called No Use for a Name, which was like a really big Fat Wreck Chords band, and all of Fat Wreck Chords.

They're from Santa Cruz, so like I just, I have a lot of history there. Um, and, uh, and so I, this guy was running this church in Santa Cruz, California, and he's this, like, punk rock, rockabilly guy. And, um, he was [00:47:00] doing, like, the whole, what do they ca- postmodern thing. Remember postmodern? Like, postmodern, like, fucking candles and stained glass, and it's like, "We're bringing it back."

Um, but so he was, like, doing the whole postmodern ministry thing in Santa Cruz. And Santa Cruz already, if you don't know about it, it's just this kind of, like, hippie, like, artist town. It's so fucking cool. Um, and so Dan, I idolized this guy. I thought he was the coolest pastor, like, you know. And, um, so it was funny 'cause about-- When I started making my content, Dan fucking reached out to me.

Like, and I was like, "Oh my God," like, I'm talking to this guy who had such a profound impact on my spiritual life. And, uh, and then, and now it's cool 'cause I'm, I'm friends with Dan. Dan, Dan's still a pastor. Dan's writing a book. I'm in the book. Uh, I, our content regularly makes it into his messages. But he's not the only pastor that follows us.

Like, there are-- I'd say there's hundreds of pastors that follow us. Um, and, and it's either through a [00:48:00] conversation I've had of like, "Hey, no, let me show you, like, what we're actually doing," or people seeing for it for what it is is, like, yeah, they're, they're challenging the, the system that is, is put in place.

That said, I know I unders- I understand I skirt the line too, and I offend people, and I-- There are, there have been videos I've made where I'm like, "Oh yeah, that was, I'd, I'd consider that blasphemous."

Jeremy: That was too far.

Joshua Colburn: Not Jesus showing his dick, though. That was not blasphemous 'cause

Jeremy: stand by that one, for the

Joshua Colburn: I 100% stand by that because when someone says, "God answered my prayer for a parking spot," it's essentially Jesus showed you his dick. Like, come on. No, no you didn't , you know? Like, so it's, yeah.

Jeremy: Okay, so there's an image that gets brought up repeatedly in my life. I've had a therapist say it to me, I've had friends say it to me, I've had numerous people over the years say it to me, and I think it's even more true of you than it is of me. But the image that has [00:49:00] been brought up to me is people have said, "You're, you're the masked magician, and you're telling people how the trick is done." Right? Because I speak a lot of... I do a series called Jerry I Have a Question, where, uh, this was my, my wife's idea, and she's like, "Hey, I just wanna ask you things about the church that people don't know." Like, you know, I was a lead pastor, so I can tell you, "Hey, here's how this was done, and here's what they..." you know, all the, all the things. But I say that as someone who I still consider myself a pastor, I just don't work on a, on a church staff anymore, right? I just am doing it in a different way. And I get told, "You're the masked magician. You're giving away the secrets," and that's why, you know, for all those years, that, that guy had to wear a mask, 'cause everyone would kill him, right?

Like, you can't... You're bad for business. You even more so. You know, you, you're... This is... You have a series called, uh, Culty Shit I Learned While Working in the Megachurch. I mean,

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: literally

Joshua Colburn: in your face

Jeremy: Uh, so tell us about, like, have you felt that? Would you, would you, would you go, "Yeah, like, that's been my experience"?

And, like, [00:50:00] has anything surprised you about, like, that series or that, that aspect of your work?

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, so the, the Culty Shit series has been an interesting one. I, I was feeling stagnant in the content that I was making, and I... A- and, and also I, I'm sure you can resonate with this, like a lot of the content y- you make, you're like, "Man, that was good. I'd love to use that again," you know? And, and so a lot of the content that I'm, that I'm, that I'm coming out with now is m- actually on its like second or third pass of like, um...

And so it's just the, the quality but, has gone up, um, and that's been intentional. But the craziest thing is with that, the numbers have gone up. And so like just in this last month, we have gained-- We weren't on Facebook this month, and now we're on Facebook and it like popped to like it's like over 50,000 in, in a month.

And that's cr- that's a crazy fucking ride to go on. Like I, I've experienced slow growth on TikTok, pockets of like [00:51:00] big videos that hit, but nothing like this wave that we've been in right now. Um, but with that has come a lot more crazy, has come a lot more like death threats to my family. Um, we've gotten handwritten letters sent to our house.

You know, that's some serious commitment to fucking write. I don't know. There-- I don't think I'd write a letter to my dying mom. Like, I would not write, like sit down and write a fucking letter to anybody. I'd type it out. But, um, the fact that someone did that was wild. But, um, and you know, it's interesting.

I had a, a creator reach out to me, a, a bigger creator that was like, "Hey, you might wanna think about protecting yourself a little bit more. Like, stop giving your phone out on, phone number out on the internet." Um, and like, "Here's some things." Because with the growth happens to be, um, the, you know, the crazies grow and the comments grow, [00:52:00] and the, the threats thr- grow as well.

And so it's been a weird season of growth and like going like, "Oh, this is a different game now." Like, we have to actually like protect ourselves a little bit more, um, because people are coming after us. It's, it's wild. And, and it was the statement that this creator said of like, "Be careful because you're fucking with their money."

And I was like, "Oh yeah, that is true." Like, there is gonna be some point where like I keep talking where it's, you know, it's gonna piss people off enough that they're gonna... But I guess I'll face that when I come to it, kind of like anything in life. But it is a weird like experience of like, oh, now I'm a, I've made myself a target.

Jeremy: Well, the w- the terminology I use in my book is I describe the church as, uh, a machine,

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: runs on fuel, right? And you start to learn if you run the machine, oh, this is the fuel it needs to run, and as long as it gets the fuel, the machine runs, everything's happy. [00:53:00] But if you don't give it fuel, or if you put stuff into it that is the opposite of fuel, right, the machine sputters and it, and it hiccups and it, you know, convulses and it, it, it's like has this reaction.

And so when you start to point out the things that, you know, my content does and your content certainly does, uh, you, you're, you get that reaction from the machine because it's... The, the phrase I use, it's bad for business, right? Like, you are bad for the business of, of the, the church, the church mechanism, this, this machine.

And so yeah, absolutely. I, I, I see that. And that, you know, that's one of those like as I just watch your content, I'm like, whew, Like, I wonder what messages you get. I wonder what DMs... You know, I just am like, I only know from my side and, you know, I think a lot of my stuff, I don't have Jesus showing off any of his body parts, you know, in any of my content.

So I can't

Joshua Colburn: It...

Jeremy: what

Joshua Colburn: should try it, dude. It's fun. No, I'm just

Jeremy: Okay, one more thing before we kind of transition questions. Um, y- this is something you had mentioned to me, [00:54:00] and I've heard you talk in bits about this, that I think it would be, to be fun to just get your take on it. do you see as the connection between neurodivergence and the Holy Spirit?

Joshua Colburn: Yeah. That's-- uh, honestly, it's one of my favorite things to talk about right now because for me, it was such a big connection, and as I talked about it, I saw it be a big light bulb moment for a lot of other people. Um, and, and so for me, I had an interesting experience where I wasn't diagnosed with anything, and then when I got out of the church, um, I got diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia.

Um, most likely I'm like AuDHD, uh, as I, as I look more into it, but I don't have m- enough money for another fucking test, and I already... Like, all it's done is shown me that my brain is fucked. So, um, but I, I was sold... A big part of me staying in ministry as [00:55:00] long as I did, 'cause I didn't believe in hell, I no longer believed that the Bible was this, like, perfect book, um, and so I'm, like, hanging on by a thread.

And, and the last thread for me, um, was the Holy Spirit. And, and, and to me, I would say out of the relationships I had with God, with Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was my best friend.

Jeremy: Hmm

Joshua Colburn: and because, I mean, that's essentially what my career was, like, driven off of, is this ability to tap into this thing that then moved other people.

And, um, and so I spent years and years and years thinking it was this supernatural gift that was given to me by God, and it was labeled by that. In fact, it was used to keep me so sick inside the church that I couldn't see the abuse that was happening. Um, and, and so when I finally got out and was diagnosed, I started piecing these things together of like, "Oh [00:56:00] my God, I, I wasn't, like..."

'Cause, sorry, I-- let me back up a little bit. Even after, like, deconstructing and going like, "I don't believe in this stuff," I still held onto my belief in the Holy Spirit because if I didn't believe in the Holy Spirit anymore, that'd mean I didn't have a voice, and that all this, like, the things that I'm good at weren't f- didn't exist.

And then I find out I'm neurodivergent and like, oh, the pattern recognition. Like, I have an insane pattern recognition, and that's what allowed me to be a very impactful speaker when I was teaching, or that's what allowed me to be a very impactful worship pastor when I was leading, is that I was able to pick up on the small cues in the room and think that, and, and equ- and equate that that's God giving that to me.

Well, holy shit, now I realize that's my brain. Like, my brain is great with pattern recognition. Like, my sensitivity is built off of my neurodivergency, not off of God miraculously making me s- like a sensitive person to these things, [00:57:00] you know? And maybe- Maybe that God, if there is that God, whatever that looks like, maybe the blessing, I'm doing that with quotes, is in, "No, I made you neurodivergent.

Unfortunately, the world is very different than what was intended for these types of people to fit in." I don't know. But I do know that the church preyed on my neurodivergency, whether they knew it or not. Um, whether they knew they were doing that or, or not, there was something in me that they were seeing that had to do with my disability that they were calling out and calling spiritual, and it fucked me up

Jeremy: how much of your work today, though, would you attribute to you being neurodivergent?

Joshua Colburn: All of it.

Jeremy: Right.

Joshua Colburn: All of it

Jeremy: so that's the beauty of it's not like, well, you lost the Spirit, and now you're out, you know, wandering the streets. It's like, no, the way that God made you, you are made however, right? That's ... [00:58:00] You're now using it.

You're leaning into it, and if anything, you're more honest about it now of like,

Joshua Colburn: Truly, yeah

Jeremy: this is how my brain is wired

Joshua Colburn: Yep. Yeah, and, and it was But the thing that I wanna just highlight again is that it was used against me in such a harmful way. And I wa- now looking back on it, I watched it really hurt my friends. I watched it really hurt the person who believes that this is their pathway to God. That-- The believes that, like, by serving, acts of service, being on the, the, in the tech team, being on the stage serving, that these are...

this is your gift set. And I feel like it's a, a huge thing that's being hidden from a lot of people of like, again, the church naming and claiming something as their own, you know, and that that's what they do with people's neurodivergency. But on the other side of that is, uh, the, the darker side of that.

Like, we've only talked about the positive things in terms of, like, the pattern recognition, [00:59:00] the good things that come along with that. The other side of that is very manipulated by, at least I'll speak from my experience, the church that I was in, it was very manipulated by. Because as a neurodivergent person, I have so many negative thoughts already.

Like, it-- There's been studies that neurotypical people have less thoughts daily than the... But again, this c- also could be, like, made-up internet stuff. I don't know. I'm not a fucking scientist. Um, but it makes sense to me, and as I talk to other people, it makes sense to them. But just the fact that neurodivergent people have a lot more negative thoughts floating around in their head.

Now, when you pair that with a system that is built on sin and hell, um, all that sin in your life is-- becomes your neurodivergency. All the negative thoughts, all the doubts, all the things that I'm-- like the, the self-hatred that comes along with being a neurodivergent person. I'm not saying everybody is that.

I'm saying my, my experience. When I got into the [01:00:00] church, that was then solidified as real and as sin. And I'm like, "Uh, so just by nature, I am a fucking awful person because I'm thinking about suicide, I'm thinking about jerking off, I'm thinking about all these things that the church is telling me is bad, and now it is amplified by my neurodivergency.

I'm a bad person." So it got really easy to get up there and sing these, like, hateful songs towards ourselves, you know, these worship songs of like, "I'm so bad. You're the greatest," you know? It's, it's, it's, uh... The neurodivergency train in evangelicalism, I hope gets studied more. Um, I'm, uh-- In fact, I'm actually-- I've just started talking to a, a writer, um, off of Substack who, um, really resonated with this and had some really incredible points to make about this, so we're gonna kinda...

We'll see. I feel like someone's pitching a book every day. Like, "Let's, let's write a book together." I'm like, "I, I'm fucking dyslexic, dude."

Jeremy: [01:01:00] You know what, as you're describing, I'm thinking you're describing the experience of, uh, a queer person in church,

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: right? Of like, "Hey, the way that I'm wired, the way that I think is inherently sinful," right? And then if you stay in that environment, you're led to then think awful thoughts about yourself of, "Why do I, why do I want this?

Why do I think this? Why do I crave this," right? As opposed to learning, no, that's how, that's how you are. That's, that's who you are, right? And, and I think part of your journey has been learning to be like, "I'm okay with who I am.

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: going to accept this other story anymore, and now we're gonna figure out what does this new story look like?"

Joshua Colburn: Yep, exactly. And what that news... Yeah, go ahead

Jeremy: I was gonna say, with that new story, I'm curious before we move on, who, who is Jesus to you these days? How do you... What, where, where are you at with that? Where do you land?

Joshua Colburn: Ooh. This is fresh.

Jeremy: Ooh, okay

Joshua Colburn: Um Man, [01:02:00] so I wanted nothing to do with Jesus when I first left the church. I was just like, I rejected it all. I was like, "Fuck this." And, um, I think over time as I allowed the sediment to kind of settle, I was faced with this Jesus that I had built my whole core being off of. And y- you know what actually did it was when Trump was elected and Reverend, uh, Mary Ann Buddy got up and, and talked to him.

And I, I'm, I'll... I might even cry 'cause I think it's so... I just... That woman, that pastor, like reshaped my... It, it didn't reshape my view of Jesus. It reminded me of like, not to sound all weird and Christian-y here, but the romance, the, the, the, the friendship, the, the kinship, the learning, my leader, you know, like all these things.

It allowed me to [01:03:00] go back to Jesus and, and actually go like read his words again for the first time since I had left the church, and go like, "Oh, like this is my... This is what my life has been built off of." Like, the way that I raise my children is still under the core foundation of Jesus. Like, the way that I love my wife is, is built off that.

Like, the way that I love my neighbor is... And so it's like, yeah, I don't think I'm done with Jesus. I, I don't, I don't think Jesus is this absent figure in my life. Now, whether or not it was this divine being, I don't know. I'm still trying to figure that part out, but I feel like I can afford myself that after being a professional, th- knowing what I believed for so long.

But, um, it's been really interesting as I've been diving into, like what, what does the Bible really say? Like, what is this? What is it looking like? And, uh, I, like many other [01:04:00] people, have fallen down this Paul trail where, you know, Paul essentially hijacked Christianity. Um, and, and, and that makes a lot of sense to me today.

I don't know about tomorrow, but today it makes a lot of sense. And so, you know, I'd say if I, if my relationship with Jesus was like Facebook official, it'd be complicated.

Jeremy: Do they still do that?

Joshua Colburn: I don't know. I fucking hope so. I haven't had to change it to that in a while, so

Jeremy: That's amazing. It's complicated. Hey, I appreciate that. Thank you for your vulnerability there. Okay, let's, let's lighten it up a little bit.

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: walks into a wine bar.

Joshua Colburn: うん。

Jeremy: order, and how does that experience go?

Joshua Colburn: Tristan orders a glass of water, and he sits there. But here's the thing, before he ordered the glass of water, he came in about 30 minutes earlier and bought a couple bottles of [01:05:00] wine and stuffed them in the car. So, but then he is sitting there at, at the wine bar with his glass of water just judging all the parishioners that, that, of his church that are there, you know?

And they're starting to order water now too because his fear of influence is so great

Jeremy: And he's thinking, "I can't wait to get into those bottles later."

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, totally. And just be an asshole to my wife.

Jeremy: That's amazing.

Joshua Colburn: Tell her she'll never be able to lead

Jeremy: Yeah, there we go. which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you,

Joshua Colburn: Mm.

Jeremy: you not trust, and why?

Joshua Colburn: Hmm.

Wow. Okay, I'm going John the Baptist for picking my wine because it's gonna be a little more than wine in there. I think there's gonna be some... And if it is wine, it's probably wine from the talking [01:06:00] donkey. What's his name? Ball or wh- what was the fo- what was the talk- talking

Jeremy: Balaam and

Joshua Colburn: donkey's name? Balaam. There, or the talking ass.

Yeah, Balaam and the talking ass. It's, it's the talking ass' milk.

Jeremy: had a name. I think it was Balaam you're

Joshua Colburn: That's right, yeah, yeah. But the, the, the talking donkey li- survived past that and gave John the Baptist his milk.

Jeremy: That's a

Joshua Colburn: So I got,

Jeremy: there

Joshua Colburn: got talking donkey milk, dude

Jeremy: Joshua, I can confidently say I have never had that answer to that question before, ever in the history of this pod. Okay, who are you, who are you not trusting to, to get a bottle of wine for you from church

Joshua Colburn: Paul. Fuck Paul. He's gonna, he's gonna bottle up something that's pretending to be wine, and it's not gonna be wine. It's gonna be fucking grape juice

Jeremy: I love it. Yeah, we've, we've had, we've had... Paul comes up regularly on that question. Okay, you're gonna have your list of options for this one, so you're gonna have to pick one. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?

Joshua Colburn: [01:07:00] I feel so dumb. I feel so dumb saying this, but I legit bought into the myth that men had one extra rib.

Jeremy: Yes, I did a whole video on this recently.

Joshua Colburn: what the fuck?

Jeremy: were like, "I still thought that was a thing."

Joshua Colburn: I, I've put that video out a couple times too, and I'm always baffled because there's, like, at least 10 people going, "Oh, shit. You're right." Like, it's crazy. Like, but I literally believe that. In fact, I think I taught that from the stage, you know? And, and, and of, like, this is a reason. You know, I remember being in my, like, when I was first, like, starting to dabble in teaching, like 18, 19 years old.

Um, I just, like, took all the stories, like the emotional stories that I had heard pastors tell over the year. Like, did you ever hear the bridge story, the br- the bridge worker story about... I heard it everywhere I went. Basically, this [01:08:00] guy, and it was a, um, a lesson about Jesus. This guy brings his kid to work, and every day, and I remember the hands.

The hands, like my youth pastor would do the hands like this. There was a drawbridge, and every day this guy's job was to lower the draw- the drawbridge for the train to go.

Jeremy: Oh, yeah, I've heard this

Joshua Colburn: and so the, the, the, the, the guy looks over one day and he sees that his kids, his kid is playing in the gears, and he can't... He has to choose, "Do I kill my kid or kill the train?"

And I gave that one, and then I probably followed it up with, "Yeah, men don't, men have one more rib than women," you know?

Jeremy: I mean, those are, yeah, those are a natural pairing together

Joshua Colburn: I was fucking great, man. I was led by the spirit

Jeremy: Dude, I don't, I don't know if you spend much time on it, but it, it haunts me to think of some of the, the things I preached, some of the things I said to people

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: I'm just like, gosh, that's like, that's what I was raised with. That's what made sense to me then. And I look back on it now and it's like, if I could just go and [01:09:00] apologize to every person, it's like, "I am so sorry. Like, so sorry that I said that to you."

Joshua Colburn: Can I, can I ask you a question? Have you had those people reach out to you on social media?

Jeremy: I don't think as much on social media. I had someone at an event... So we were doing an event at a wine bar, and, um, we were talking about, I think it was something about purity culture and kind of just untangling that for people. And, um, it, and then we, like, broke up into groups, and someone had showed up that night that hadn't, didn't normally go, but, you know, had, had been with me for a while, and she said something like, "Hey, you said this to me years ago."

And I didn't remember the conversation at all. And dude, I just like, I had to own it and be like, "I'm so sorry," like, "I don't remember saying that to you. I probably did," you know what I mean? "But, like, I feel awful, and that's not who I am today." And that, like, that's the only thing I know how to say is, like, I wanna own whatever [01:10:00] that, that I can own of it, and I'm not that guy anymore.

You know? Like, I would never say that to you now, and I would never endorse that now, and I'd never say, like, "Well, that's just how it was, you know, and no big deal." It's like, "No, I'm so sorry." I just think that's, that's like the catch 22 of this journey that we've been on that people don't talk, I don't think, enough about, of like, you will always have the regret you can't really fix it

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, I feel that deeply. And I feel that deeply especially when it comes to, like, missions work. You know, I think a lot of the missions work I did, I was one of those weekend warrior missionaries, you know, like, just so, like, excited to get out there and, and, and do the Lord's work, and I look back on that now, um, with deep regret.

You know, like I, I, I, I remember vividly, uh, a moment where I was with a group and they had brought all the supplies out. We were in, uh, Southeast Asia, and they had brought [01:11:00] all these supplies out for this village. Um, and they set it, like, right in the middle of the fucking street, you know? And it's, like, real- it's, like, solar-powered shit, it's, like, food, it's, like, stuff that will literally change their lives in this place, and that wasn't good enough.

They had to do-- make us, like, do a dance to a fucking Lifehouse song. Um, you know? And, and it was like, "Hey, if you want these supplies, just come watch this presentation for 30 minutes, and then you can take whatever you want." You know? And it's like, oh, fuck, I'm, like...

I thought that meant something. I really did. I thought it meant something important, divine, and, and I, and I went along with it, you know? And it's like, fuck, man, de- depriving people of their needs so they can hear our version of the gospel from some fucking pimply kid who's doing a Lifehouse dance? [01:12:00] Like, come on.

I feel deeply for that

Jeremy: that's something that's so hard those of us who have been a part of the transactional nature of, of the behind-the-scenes. takes a toll on you. And I think, you know, a lot of people can look at your content or my content and be like, "Well, why are you, why are you critical of this?" Or, "Why can't you just move on?" like, but you don't understand, like, the lived experience of it, right? Like, I was a part of the transaction. I was a part of running this. I was a part of, you know, what I, what I look at now, and I think you would agree, of like manipulating a situation or others or whatever. Like, I played my role in that, you know what I mean?

And it made sense to me, and I bought in, and now you look back as a different version of yourself, and it's like horrifying. And then, you know, I think as a way of healing, it's like we try to offer that perspective back of like, "Hey, let's help others navigate that better. Let's, let's call others to do something better."

You know, the church can be better than this is what I believe. Like, the church [01:13:00] can be better. I'm not anti-church. I'm anti all of the bullshit in church, right? And so, yeah, I will, I will be the magician, the masked magician calling out all of the tricks until there's no more gross tricks to be called out

Joshua Colburn: Yeah. And I, I hear you. I, I'm with you on that. I, I, I don't think-- I, I get that comment a lot from people, like, "You just were at the wrong church." And it's like, like, you don't understand. Like, y- you know, I mean, through my journey of just being associated with church, being in a larger church, touring other churches, being guest l- speakers at other churches, like, you pick up the vibe of church.

Like, they're not all the same flavor of ice cream, but it's ice cream, you know? A- and so when I get told, like, "Not my church," it's the same kinda sentiment I hear when it's like, "It's not all men." And it's like, motherfucker, it is until it isn't, you know? A- a- and, a- and, and that's, [01:14:00] that's kind of what- where I stand on with it.

Um, but for me, you know, w- with you on that, and I think this is lost a lot, and I'm, so I'm glad I get to say it here, but a lot of me taking 20 years to leave the church was because I loved the church deeply, and I saw the fucking hope that the church could be to people. Like, I truly thought that it was a vessel for important change in people's lives, and I was naive enough to believe that I was a part of that change.

Um, I'll, I'll tell one quick story. You know, one of the things that really... And I don't talk about this a ton, maybe legal issues, I don't know. But, um, my kind of last few bits at the church, like I'd say the last year, um, we as an organization ha- I had led out a, "Hey, we need to go through the clobber passages and really like, really look at this and see what we're fucking condemning," you know?

And so [01:15:00] they took it serious, and we spent four years in a Bible study as pastors. We would meet every other week, and we would go through the clobber passages. Four fucking years. Everything towards the end of that-- And I was so proud 'cause I had so many people that were just waiting, from the LGBTQIA community, who were just waiting for this news to be dropped because at this church, their pastors wouldn't be able to marry them, and they couldn't serve in ministry, right?

And so four years of this Bible study to come to the conclusion that everybody on this staff should be able to maintain their own belief system in as long as it falls within Jesus was resurrected, you know, crucified, resurrected for our sins. That if your personal belief is you can, you know, you, you don't have a problem with same-sex marriage, fine.

Um, that's where we landed as a megachurch, which was fucking insane, right? [01:16:00] I-- Again, I'm an emotional guy, so I, I-- and paired with a, a half a glass of wine, I'm fucking beet red, sweating, and about to cry here Um That I, there was one guy in the church who had so much fucking money, so much money that he gave the church a $50 million loan to build their property.

That's the kind of money this guy has. He invented, like, I, I, I won't say it 'cause then you could look him up, but he invented a certain process that allows us to have a computer. Um, like invented it. And so, uh, he came in at the last minute and said, "I'm gonna pull all my funding from this place if you allow same-sex coupled, couples to be married by your pastors, if you go down this road."

And so, um, there was so much fucking hurt involved in that, you know? And as someone who led this four years out, like [01:17:00] devastated. And, and it was in that moment I thought, "There is no hope for this place." Like, and, and if I want to be the beacon of change, if I wanna be a voice of change within these walls, I have to leave it, and I have to get outside of it.

Um, and I still carried my faith out of, out of that un- uh, not unfortunately, but fortunately for me, like part of deconstructing your church belief, it intertwines with your own core beliefs, you know? And that's what I get a lot from people too. People say like, "Just because you left, like you hate the church doesn't mean, uh, you should hate Jesus."

And I'm like, my m- my problems with the two things are separate. They often intertwine, um, but they are very separate. I'm intelligent enough to know I have problems with both systems, you know? So, but yeah, it was so fucked up, and that was ultimately what kind of led to me like going like, "There is no hope for this place.

I can't, I cannot do this."

Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, when you, when you see something that indefensible, it's like, what, [01:18:00] what, what would it do to your soul to stay at that point? You know what I mean? To say, "Oh, we would rather keep this guy's funding and, and not follow what literally the Holy Spirit has led us through in a four-year journey of discernment."

Joshua Colburn: Yeah

Jeremy: Like that's, that's a wild story

Joshua Colburn: A-and then to, you know, and then to have to go and face Karen and look at this woman in the eyes and be like, "I'm sorry." But here's the redeeming story of that. I left the church, and a month later I married them, and it was so fucking powerful.

Jeremy: that's cool

Joshua Colburn: Like I, I, I was... One, one of the coolest experiences to, to, to go years and years with this woman who really loved this church and wanted to be accepted by this church and loved by this church, um, to leave the church and then to go marry them was, was profound and a beautiful way to start my deconstruction journey.

Yeah.

Jeremy: What a, what a great story to end on. I love [01:19:00] that. All right. Joshua, is there anything I have not asked you, we have not talked about that we cannot wrap this episode up unless, unless you get to say it?

Joshua Colburn: Do you think that God could make a burrito so hot in a microwave that he couldn't take a bite out of it?

You don't need to answer today.

I suck with fucking parting words. I'm drunk off a half a glass of wine. I'm s- I-- Like, th- I... Is this, like, a people see this shit or is it more like people listen to this shit?

Jeremy: There's, there's more listeners usually than, than viewers, but it is, it is on YouTube as well. So if you'd like to see what Joshua looks like

Joshua Colburn: I mean, like, this is moist

Jeremy: For, for you listeners, he's currently showing us his neck

Joshua Colburn: I'm getting up close and personal, almost like Jesus the other day

Jeremy: Is that why you keep your hair long so you can just [01:20:00] play Jesus in all these videos?

Joshua Colburn: You know, I th- actually, sorry, I know we are wrapping up, but I have to say it. My long hair is actually an act of rebellion towards the church. I always wanted to have long hair. Um, senior pastor, the first time I started growing my hair out, the senior pastor brought me into his office and said, "People are having a hard time connecting with you."

Jeremy: No.

Joshua Colburn: we didn't have IMAG 'cause of my hair. We didn't have IMAG at the church. There was no me on the screens, on the side screens. Um, I was very anti that, and so, uh, I was like, "You can't fucking see me past, like, the first three rows anyways. This place seats thousands of people. What are you talking about?"

You know? But they would not let me have long hair at the church. And so, um, I grew my hair out as soon as I left the church, and I haven't cut it since. So it's-

Jeremy: now

Joshua Colburn: Yeah. Look at me now, Church. Look what you did to me. Huh? Look what this trauma did.

Jeremy: me do," in the words of Taylor Swift

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, totally. Or that one, uh, that one [01:21:00] druggy commercial when we were kids.

Like, "I learned it from watching you, Dad."

Jeremy: Yeah. Well, that was a, that was a dark part of our childhood you just brought us back to there on

Joshua Colburn: Oh, wise. We've hit two things of that, the do you know where your children are, and I learned it from watching you. Welcome

Jeremy: sacrificing your children for a bridge, you know. Heavy stuff with kids today

Joshua Colburn: But you know, in tr- true traditional evangelical ki- uh, e- evangelical fashion, "Ah, kids will be fine.

Jeremy: They're, they're resilient, right?

Joshua Colburn: Give them to Dobson, they'll be fine

Jeremy: That's another episode. Hey, Joshua, this has been incredible. How, if someone has not... I'll, I'll put the links, but just for the, the listeners that you're listening, what's the best way to connect with your work online?

Joshua Colburn: Yeah, Originals Synfluencer on all platforms. I also do music under my personal name, Joshua Colburn. Um, I produce for my wife as well, Presley Moy, and, uh, [01:22:00] and so all of our music is kind of... We're kind of creating a universe. So, like, the Synfluencer universe is just one aspect of kind of our, our, our lives.

We do beekeeping. We do gardening. We're insane. We're just... It never ends, so. Um, but yeah, that, and then I do have a new song coming out that deals with a lot about deconstruction. I'm really proud of it. It's called Amazing Grace, and it is basically, um, using the song Amazing Grace to kind of unpack the journey of, um, you know, your experience in the church and their version of God and all this stuff, and it's really cool.

My... One of my close friends played violin on it, and she, um, she's absolutely brilliant. She did the deconstructed version of Amazing Grace. So the, the violin on the song is actually Mopey, is actually, actually the upside-down version of Amazing Grace.

Jeremy: Oh, that's cool

Joshua Colburn: so yeah. Mopey, hey

Jeremy: The dog, dog is excited about this song

Joshua Colburn: She was at my feet the whole [01:23:00] time, and then, yeah, she's, she's pumped on the song. It's her favorite song

Jeremy: Well, Joshua, I just gotta tell you, dude, I have immense respect, um, for not only your work, but the journey that you've been on, the way you've navigated it, the way you've been true to face the pain, face the ugliness, and, uh, and not run from it, not just, you know, try to move on to something that feels better.

But n- the, the fact that you have done that has then opened the door for a bunch of other people to follow and have these conversations and get to experience your content and have all the reactions that they're gonna have to it. And so, uh, I just wanna say thank you for that. Uh, it has been incredibly helpful for me, and I'm immensely grateful that you'd spend some time with us this afternoon, uh, on the pod.

So thanks for, thanks for joining us today.

Joshua Colburn: Thanks for having me. I was scared to meet you and, and I'm, I'm glad that we did

Jeremy: Why were you scared to meet me?

Joshua Colburn: Because I thought you [01:24:00] were gonna try and convert me. Like, when I first saw, like, the pastor thing, I legit had someone invite me onto a podcast pretending to be deconstruction, and then they fucking tried to convert me on it. I'm not lying. It's a crazy world out there

Jeremy: Yeah, that's not this podcast

Joshua Colburn: No, I, I figured that out halfway through my f*****g wine

Jeremy: Oh, this is a g- this is a

Joshua Colburn: So good

Jeremy: All right, everybody, I hope you have enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. We'll see you next Wednesday on Cabernet and Pray

Humor for Church Trauma (with Joshua Colburn) | Ep. 84

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