Grace, Sideways: Faith, Doubt, and Deconstruction (with Jack Reese) | Ep. 88
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[00:00:00] Welcome, friends, to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we drink good wine and we explore the deeper story of Christianity.
Today, we've got a delightful conversation with a guy named Jack Reese, who is a lifelong doubter, and yet he's not what people often think about when they think about someone who is big into doubt or deconstruction.
He's 75, and he's done a lot of the typical Christian roles that we would expect for someone who's got things figured out, and yet, as you'll see on this episode, that's not the posture he takes, and he's got a brand-new book to talk about it. Jack is retired from full-time teaching and ministry. Now he's focusing on writing, mentoring, and pastoral care.
He considers himself to be a doubter for most of his adult life. He previously served as a senior pastor of the Oak Hills Church in San Antonio. He received his PhD from the University of Iowa School of Religion. He was a [00:01:00] full-time professor for 28 years, teaching freshmen, upper-class majors, master's, and doctoral students.
He's married to Dr. Melissa Reese, a speech pathologist and co-owner of Ethos Speech Language Learning in San Antonio. And fun fact, their favorite pastime is wine tasting, and their favorite wine-tasting area is Santa Barbara County of the Sideways fame, if you are familiar with that movie. And so I chose a bottle in honor of his favorite region for today.
This is just a, a delightful conversation with someone who is significantly older than most of us, and yet I love the perspective that he brings and the way in which he holds his faith today. I think it's gonna be an encouragement to you. This is Grace Sideways: Faith, Doubt, and Deconstruction.
I've never shared this with [00:02:00] anybody publicly If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight, so I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk [00:03:00] about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know.
I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I... Oh. I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is... But here we are.
Queer we are. Beer we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. I'm an emotional guy. Paired with a half a glass of wine, I'm beet red, sweating, and about to [00:04:00] cry here. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guests drink wine.
It makes sense now. Yeah. I get it. A little bit of liquid courage here to unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice. Cabernet and pray, yeah.
Jeremy: Well, there are two guys at the center of the movie Sideways. There's Miles, the doubting wine obsessive who overthinks everything, and Jack, who spends the whole movie making terrible decisions. My guest today is named Jack. He loves Santa Barbara wine, and he has spent his life doubting and overthinking, which makes him the wrong Jack and the right one at the same time.
So Jack Reese, welcome to the show
Jack Reese: Thank you, Jeremy. I appreciate it, and thanks for sharing, one of my favorite movies
Jeremy: Well, I did wanna ask 'cause your book is called Grace Sideways, is there any nod, any [00:05:00] little hint, any love connection there to the movie Sideways about wine?
Jack Reese: Purpose. I was aware of the movie. We love Sideways Country, but, tried to steer the book a little away from, from the adventures of, of, the Santa Ynez Valley. So, n- not overtly
Jeremy: Okay, not overly. But in honor of you today, I am drinking wine from that region. And so I wanna explain what I'm drinking, and then we'll see what you've got in your glass.
I am drinking a 2023 Story of Soil Syrah. This is a single vineyard Syrah, which is not super common, but the winemaker and the owner, she loves Syrah, and she believes that Syrah should get its own love the way that Pinot Noir does, which a, a lot of the Pinots that I drink from Oregon are all single vineyard Pinots, and those are super cool.
[00:06:00] The vineyard that this one is from is called the Presqu'ile Vineyard in Santa Barbara County, and I did a little research on it, and I found an interesting story. This was, uh, started by the Murphy family of Louisiana. They're the ones that own this particular vineyard. And I wanna read something that I found on the website, and I'm gonna tie this into our conversation today, Jack.
So, so buckle up. Here we go. "The name Presqu'ile is a Creole term for what would technically be an isthmus, but we think the literal translation is even better. Quote, almost an island, end quote. The name pays homage to a beloved family gathering spot on the Louisiana coast that was lost to Hurricane Katrina.
The new Presqu'ile is exactly the right spot to carry on that tradition of connection, offering a place where family, friends, and guests can share food, drink, and camaraderie." So they took loss and [00:07:00] pain, and they found a way to make something beautiful out of it, and I suspect that might be some of our conversation today.
So that is what I'm drinking. It's, it's a nice... We, we were talking before the episode. J-Jack and I are both in hot places right now. So this is not domineering. I'm getting blueberry and graphite on it
It's light. It's not, it's not too overpowering. So it's a nice afternoon glass for my conversation today. Jack, what do you got?
Jack Reese: Well, I am drinking a wine from Australia. My wife Lisa and I have been to Australia now a couple of times in the last five years. And the last time we were there, we spent days in McLaren Vale near Adelaide in South Australia, and found some lovely, vineyards. And so, in honor of our good friends in Australia, this is a Mollydooker, a Mollydooker. [00:08:00] Mollydook is a, an Australian word for a left-hander. f- a boxer molly meaning sissy. A, a left-handed boxer, 'cause they didn't like left-handed boxers at the, the, the turn of the 20th century. So, left-hander, they called a mollydooker. This is a Shiraz. I, I, I have learned to pronounce that correctly. to call it a Shiraz, but in Australia they say Shiraz.
Jeremy: Okay, thanks for letting us know
Jack Reese: Merlot Cab, and it is stout for an afternoon, but it is just lovely. Would be perfect with a steak. it is plum a bit of vanilla some, some, some spices. Just it's a lovely dry mostly Shiraz.
Jeremy: Well, excellent. Well, cheers to you and cheers to our listeners if you are able to enjoy a glass with us on the episode
Well, [00:09:00] Jack, as we get going, f- for someone that may not be familiar with you, may not be familiar yet with your book, one of the questions I love starting with is just to get a snapshot into the more recent journey that you've been on. Obviously, you've, you've lived a few decades, but think about the last 10 years.
How would you say that your faith has changed in that time?
Jack Reese: Oh, almost in every way. If I could go back 13 years, I I left the world and life and career that I had known after having served as a, as a pastor and as a longtime professor and academic dean. I moved away from that and moved to Dallas to the poorest zip code in in the state, one of the poorest in the, in the countries. And was me, literally in the [00:10:00] wilderness. I, I, I walked away from something that I knew and that I loved, but I needed to. In, in your language, I, I, I needed to move out to the edge. I had been spending too much time in the, in the center of things. And a number of reasons, this was this was the right move, which means that I was not one with the answers. I was living in someone else's world. My first day with the Foundation for Community Empowerment, which I, I led for five years, my first day, I went to the neighborhood and visited with some of the neighbors, and they, they said, "How long will you be here?"
Jeremy: Hmm
Jack Reese: And took them literally, and I looked at my watch, and I said, "Well, until middle of the afternoon."
And they said, "No, no, no, no. How long will you be here? You, you rich white people come down here to to our neighborhood, and you stay for month or six weeks doing this or that, [00:11:00] and then you can't stand it. And so our question is, how long will you be here?" And I made a commitment to be there. And so those years in an almost entirely African American world, worshiping at a Black church finding my way toward a different, new, exciting future, faith was tested in almost every way, and I came out the other side in almost every way a different kind of person with a different kind of faith
Jeremy: What surprised you the most looking back on that?
Jack Reese: It surprised me how quickly I adapted, but that was primarily because the people at my church embraced me fully and [00:12:00] accepted me as one of them and not as the as the odd white person in the, in the group. They their nickname for me was 1% because the preacher would, would often say, "We are a 99% Black church," and so they, they called me 1%. It was a term of endearment and of of acceptance. And being embraced by people who would have no reason to embrace a white man to love me unconditionally to teach me what it was like to, to live in that world, in that community i- it was it was a culture shock in every way and and I loved almost every minute of it.
Jeremy: You can't love every minute, let's be honest
Jack Reese: almost. Almost. There were, there were some trials and there were some, were some difficulties. There [00:13:00] were you know, the, the main obstacle in, in those years was that the neighborhood around Dallas' Fair Park had been so desperately abused by the city by the State Fair of Texas. The neighborhood was allowed to run down. A, a fence was built there in the, in the 1970s as a way of keeping the neighbors out and keeping what happened in, in Fair Park and the State Fair in. It, it... dealing with power in a in a city like that trying to defend and partner with and learn from, the Black community around Fair Park yeah, there were, there were a lot of trials in that world. but some really good things happened as well.
Jeremy: Well, you've got a book called Grace Sideways, not tied to the wine movie, at least not that you're gonna go on record saying. And it, it is, in a lot of ways, [00:14:00] something that you would expect a young 20-something to write, because this is a book that celebrates doubting and celebrates, you know, some of the, the questioning of life, and yet that's not your story.
Uh, it's not, you know, your, your age of life, your season of life, and I, and I love that. I love that you're, you're inviting a conversation in a surprising way, and, and people go, "Oh, it's okay to, to doubt even after you've had years of, you know, having a chance to figure things out," and I think you offer a really healthy premise there.
There's a few things I wanna talk through that I really, uh, enjoyed that you wrote. You, you write this: "Sometimes I wish God had created a world in which God's presence was clearer, more straightforward, and utterly undeniable. It seems like it would be easier that way, though I suspect it would not actually be, be better for me or anyone [00:15:00] else."
This is a theme I feel like I get in a lot of conversations with, of people saying, "Why is it so confusing? Why would God not make it clearer?" And yet you, you're making the argument that even if it was more clear, it wouldn't actually be to our benefit. What, what do you mean by that?
Jack Reese: If, if God created a world in which everyone recognized God, and in which by my behavior and by my attitude and by my faithfulness I was advantaged I pray and the good things happen. I know what God wants and I choose to do it. Then everyone, everyone would be good, and everyone would follow, and everyone would be a Christian.
It would, it would remove... It's just too flip to say it removes free will, but it, it removes our, sense that we can choose or [00:16:00] not choose God. God created a world in which is not certain. God's existence is not provable. Even though those who go through the apologetics exercises feel like they get close, is not the world God created.
And anyone who believes that that's the world God has created hasn't read the prophets hasn't read the Psalms. I'm not sure they've read the Gospels or the Epistles because God is largely hidden. And, and if we live in a world in which God is hidden, then we have to rely on something other than than sight.
Because sight's not going to, not going to accomplish it. We're not gonna be able to find him that way
Jeremy: Yeah.
Jack Reese: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy: In our series through the Book of Job, we've been exploring the idea of what Dr. David Gushee calls a just world theology, that things work out the way they're supposed to. Good things happen to good people, bad things happen to bad people. And in that world, we [00:17:00] don't have any doubt. We don't have any...
There's no lack of certainty 'cause everything makes sense. But as most people know, and as certainly every, I, I suppose every listener to this podcast knows that's not the way the world works. That's not the way experience feels. And so I, I, I think you're onto something there, where we may crave that God would just make it so simple, and yet that, that simplicity might create something really kind of bizarre, and there's something more true even in the mystery.
We just have to be comfortable, as you are modeling, being comfortable in the midst of our doubts
Jack Reese: you know, Jesus said it r- God rains on the just and the unjust. God also sends storms to the just and the unjust. I, I live not very far. In fact, I spent last week, about a half a mile from the Guadalupe River. a year ago, last July 4th in Kerr County, Texas, out in the Hill Country in Hunt, Texas, where, where I [00:18:00] was, the, the river flooded in a once in a thousand year flood.
Though it happened again just a couple of weeks ago. And 130 plus people died It storms on the just and the unjust. It blessings come to the just and the unjust. You can't just count your blessings and say, "Okay, well, then I must be on the good team. The other team doesn't get any blessings."
And well, often, often it is the ones who are most cruel that get all kinds of advantages, sometimes the ones who are most faithful catch it in the neck. You can't, you can't calculate it on that kind of a scorecard. In the midst of all of that, when, when good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people learning to trust anyway is is the hardest thing, but I don't know how else to get there than learning to trust anyway
Jeremy: [00:19:00] You have a line, you say, "I'm not paralyzed by my doubts, but they are close by." Which I think is such a great way to say it. Because functionally, paralyzing is what doubt often feels like. When people describe the feeling, it's like, "I could move forward, but I wonder about this." And, you know, I've always been the person that just inherently is the doubter, so when I look at people with certainty, I often have the thought, "That looks so appealing."
You know, like, look at how happy they are. Like, they, they don't have the same questions that I have, and I, you know, I look at them and I think, "They're enjoying life more than I am." Like, I wish I could, and yet I think for a lot of us, that's just not, it's not a realistic option. So talk to us about the idea of w- of when, when doubt feels paralyzing, and then how do you get it to not feel paralyzing?
Jack Reese: I, I [00:20:00] don't understand certainty. There, there are people, in fact some of my friends and some of my family members for whom certainty comes easily. I've never fully understood. I wish that I knew what it felt like to say "I prayed and God told me that God wanted me to do this or that," or some event happened I could say with certainty, "Well, God caused that." I don't know how you get there. And so it's not like uncertainty is something I have chosen. I, I have, I have lived in an uncertain world, and in some ways was trained to be uncertain to ask questions to doubt and then to doubt my doubts. If the only way that one can move forward is by knowing for sure what's around the next corner I, I am [00:21:00] helpless to, to help those, those people. It, it may very well be that God does whatever God does in other people's lives, in other people's hearts, in other people's minds that I don't grasp, I don't understand. I am, I am honored to know people like that, some of whom are dear, dear friends. But I don't think in general the Christian life is about figuring out how much we know about God, but it is figuring out how much we don't know about God. And those who claim knowledge too strongly well, as Paul says, "Knowledge puffs up." N- knowledge is a, is ultimately a dead end and one learns, I think, in life that the more one knows, the less one knows for sure. When I was a young senior pastor of a pretty big church in, in my early 30s here in San Antonio in fact I, I knew almost all the answers. [00:22:00] I knew almost all the answers. Yeah, there was a time h- however I was teaching a class in Romans and Romans is not the easiest of books and there are all kinds of, of problems, interpretive problems, theological problems, textual problems and I, I said at one point there, there are a couple of main theories of this, that one group thinks that this is what's going on, another group thinks that that's what's going on. And so those are the two theories and I, I went on and a, a guy raised his hand in class and he said, "Well, how do you mean you're going on? Which one of those is, is right?" And I said, "I don't know. I don't know which one is right." And a little group came up to me after, after class and said, "You know, we hired you to an- to answer questions."
And I said, "No, sir, you hired me to ask the questions." And for me that was a, a learning point in my, in my early 30s, that there are just a lot of things I don't know and the older I've gotten, the less I know for [00:23:00] sure. So, I, I don't struggle too much with the certainty thing anymore. I, I am not certain and, and I, I find myself more and more comfortable living there.
Jeremy: I remember when I was a lead pastor, I would often, you know, the church would say, "Hey, we wanna talk about some subject," you know, whatever it is. Let's say it's hell, and so it's like, "Let's do a series on hell," and people are, you know, wanting to know about it. And so the way I would approach it is very similar to what you described.
All right, historically, the church has had three different positions of, of hell, and let's walk through each of the three, and I'll give you a little bit of the pros and the cons and which verses seem to indicate each one, and, you know, land where you think makes the most sense, and I can tell you where I land, but, you know, all this.
And it was the same exact reaction. Like, "Pastor, no, no, no, no. Just tell us the right one." And you, you realize, like, there's a paradigm there, right? Of like th- the end of this should be the answer, and if you're not offering that, then the very conversation's a non-starter for them. And yet, [00:24:00] I think for people like us, it's like I, I would never approach this conversation like that, and that would be a ludicrous thought.
And yet I wonder, too, do you think personality shapes a lot of this? 'Cause I wonder, are there just people more wired to be doubters and people who are just wired that they don't have the same kind of questions?
Jack Reese: Probably so. I, I couldn't tell you why. I'm not enough of a student of psychology to, to give something definitively. I can point you to some folks who, who might have clear answers, but in my experience, there are some who have been confident who live lives of certainty almost from, from the beginning.
I- in the book, I, I, I talk of the language. First Carl Reiner as, as the one who introduced the notion of, of summer and winter Christians, but Marty's book, A Cry of Absence describes Christians who are summer Christians and Christians who are winter [00:25:00] Christians. And the summer Christians live in the hymns. Praising God is easy. God is alive. God is at work. I see God everywhere. And I, I am envious of them. But they have always been that way. Sometimes it's a tragedy that happens that may cause summer to move into, into, into winter. I, I have always been edge of melancholy. Like my father and like my brothers, I cry easily. I, grasp the, the the winter-ness of life, the times that things don't go well. I find in them places where I can be closest to God. I-- for me, those e-emotional ruptures in life are thin places in which God can be most, at [00:26:00] least for me, easily discerned. And, and I don't want to lose that.
But yeah, I think that some naturally are summer Christians and some naturally are, are winter Christians, the church needs both praise and lament. We don't do a lot of lamenting, at least in the churches I've been a part of. We do a lot of praising. And so those of us who grasp and cling to lament find ourselves in need of, of of, of ways that we're encountering God sometimes in the shadows
Jeremy: Hmm. That's so good. It makes me think we really have designed the, the stereotypical ideal Christian experience around summer Christians, where mo- you know, if you pop into the typical church anywhere in, in the US, that's gonna be the weekend experience. It's very much celebration. It's, you know, we're gonna celebrate all the cool things.
It is [00:27:00] more rare to have the lament, to have the, the grieving, to have even the acknowledgement of something is wrong or there is a longing, right? Because that doesn't, you know, it doesn't give you the same boost on the way out. I remember, again, you know, learning as a lead pastor, people were like, "Hey, your, your sermons need to end on an encouragement."
You know, 'cause I often wouldn't. I would end on a question or end on a, "Hey, let's, let's ponder this," or, "You and the Holy Spirit work on this this week." You know, and it wasn't an upbeat summary type conclusion, and I would get feedback. "We, we need you to do this for us." And I just remember thinking, "I'm not wired for that."
Like, that's not... I'm not that guy. And as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking we have really lopsided the, the whole mechanism where we, we really don't make room for both, and yet, as you acknowledge, I agree, we, we need the full experience. And so in that regard, what I [00:28:00] think is interesting is those of us who, who are in the doubting camp have a lot to offer the church if, if we can figure out a way to, to make it work
Jack Reese: Yeah. No, that's right. I, I, I'm recalling as you share your story. my first year I was 31 years old. My first full-time pastorate, and I was the, I was the senior pastor, and it's a, a big church and growing. And I, I... Early on, I decided to preach a series on Habakkuk. May not have been my, my best choice, but I, I love Habakkuk, and I'd, I'd been studying Habakkuk in in graduate school.
And I mean, there is a, you know, "How long, Lord, how long?" And, and I had stories of my own experiences. I, I had been in, in, in Iowa City, where I did my, my doctorate at the University of Iowa. And we had had several major tragedies that had happened. And so I shared some of the stories. And there was a, a, a woman whom [00:29:00] I, I, I, I l- learned to love dearly. She was an attorney. She was fierce and she was fearless. And she came up to me after service, and she grabbed me by the shoulders, and she said, "What's the matter with you, young man? Are you depressed?" I thought, "M- m- maybe.
Jeremy: Probably
Jack Reese: but that's not why I'm doing this." But I, I was too young to know how to set that up and, and too young to understand why lament-- why and how lament has to be taught, because it doesn't come naturally for for most American Christians.
It comes naturally, by the way, for Russian Christians. My experience it's been a long time since I've been to Russia, but my, my friendship with Russian Christians was was a wonderful encounter because lament is something that they had learned to live with and embrace. They were learning to praise, [00:30:00] and they found that Americans praised so quickly and, and so to their eyes and ears superficially. I, I think there is a way of, of, of learning not, not to make the church depressed, but to recognize the grief that people are going through. We introduced it at the church that I, I'm a member of here. I'm, I'm no longer on the staff. I, I was pulled out of retirement several years ago to be executive pastor of of, of this this church.
So I did that for four years. It was great. But I have no responsibility for, for what, what came. Our worship leader began to introduce a lament service at the end of every year and ask the congregation to share all the people during the year, their friends, their family, members of our congregation- who had died during the year and, and, and we, we read Psalm... We read every December psalms together and, and sing songs of [00:31:00] lament. And it does end, in hope. It, it, like most of the songs, it ends in a, in, in a, in a cry of, of presence and not just a cry of absence. But we do have some members that say, "Why are you doing this? Why are you trying to make us sad?"
And we're like the church has to learn how to cry with those who cry, and to stand with those who, or sit with those who are in darkness even when we don't have words, to say." That, that is a, a ministry of the church that is woefully lacking in my experience. Yours too? That that's...
I, I'm not alone in that, am I?
Jeremy: No, you are, you're preaching to the choir here, my man. I I'm just listening to you, I'm going, "Yeah, that's, that's been my experience as well." And again, why I think just the, the pursuit [00:32:00] of honoring the posture of doubts, honoring the posture of lament,
Jack Reese: 嗯。
Jeremy: it's... There's something so valuable in that. And, you know, in a lot of the spaces that I'm in, 'cause I feel like I, I bounce in and out of, you know, different traditions in, in the work that I get to do today.
And in some of them, it's, it's almost like, well, only, only those people that are confused or disgruntled or, you know, are going through something, they're the ones that doubt, they're the ones that need to deconstruct, they're the ones that, you know, this and that. And it's just trying to even redeem... I find myself often trying to redeem the value of that conversation of, yeah, they may have had a hurt, you know.
Your Christians in Russia have experienced a different kind of, of experience than we have. You don't discredit them for that. You acknowledge it, right? You make space for that to say, "Their, their experience has been different than ours if for, you know, in the United States." And I think a lot of times when, when someone is in, again, the, the, the [00:33:00] terminology that's popular right now is the idea of deconstruction, but call it whatever you wanna call it.
When someone is challenging things, they're asking questions, they're going, "Hey, I don't know if this works for me anymore," we tend to want to, you know, say, "Well, you had one bad experience or one fluke thing," rather than validating what they're saying has merit, let's sit in this, you know. And and I think, you know, again, what you're saying in all your years of ministry is like you've seen the summer s- sessions, you've seen the winter, yeah, right?
And you're saying, "Let's, let's make room for the part that often gets overlooked." And that's what I love so much in the spirit of this because you're not... This is why I love it. You're not the token deconstructing 20-something disgruntled pastor, right? And, and so anyone who wants to put that, that label on it, like, you don't fit it.
And so then to hear someone like you and with your experience say, "No, there's real, there's real merit here," it's, it's a, it's a conversation changer, I suspect, for a lot of [00:34:00] people
Jack Reese: You are hinting at the fact that I am somewhat older than you, I think
Jeremy: Y- you are s- I think you might be a few years on me, yeah
Jack Reese: a few years. I I turned 75 a little more than a month ago. So yes, I'm,
Jeremy: Happy 75th birthday
Jack Reese: Thank you very much. It, it, you know, the phrase that we throw about so, so easily we weep with those who weep, and rejoice with those who rejoice.
But what most Christians do is rejoice with those who rejoice and say to the weepers, "Stop crying.
Jeremy: Oh,
Jack Reese: need to stop crying.
Jeremy: that's so true
Jack Reese: you, you make me uncomfortable when you cry. If you gotta go cry, go, go ... But let's, let's rejoice with those who rejoice." Or we throw a token grief in, know, for the poor soul who lost their father.
"But, but we need to go on. We need to be happy. We need to be happy and let's make sure that the first 20 minutes of the service is all upbeat and upbeat and..." Well, I wish the world were that way, but it's not. And we need to [00:35:00] find a way to give a grammar to our and, and, and our doubts. I, I have over the years found people push back on the notion of a hidden God. Some of the, the, the book walks through that, that journey about the God who is increasingly hidden, and it happens quickly in, in the Old Testament. But someone who says "I don't think that God hides," I don't think has spent much time in the ancient songbook of Israel or song, songbook of course, the, the ancient hymnal of, of the early church. Because the notion of God's hidden-ness o- occurs over and over and over again. should we be surprised when things happen and we don't know what God is doing, or if God was present at all in that? Why are we [00:36:00] surprised at that? We ought to have a vocabulary that expresses that, but we have to quickly say, "Oh, well, God did this and God did that." It happened again in our flood on at on the Guadalupe last year. were quick stories about, about saving this person and, and God leading this. Some of which were false, by the way. Some of which were just, just made up out of whole cloth. But we were quick to find God's presence for those who were saved- Or for someone who rescued someone else and have no language to, to talk to the families of the 130 eight or so souls that were lost in a matter of a, of a couple of hours that, that night.
And if we don't have language for that, then, then, we don't have the language of Zion. We don't have the language of, of of the Psalter. We we need to find a, a, a way hear [00:37:00] doubt, not challenge doubt, but to lean into, into faith even when we don't have the answers
Jeremy: I love that. It's-- And it's, it's the language, it's also the theology. Because when someone wants to celebrate, "Hey, let's celebrate that God answered prayer and saved this person from the flood." Okay. I-if in the same breath you can also help me understand why then God did not answer that person who also prayed and then was not saved.
And, you know, our, our modern theology for most Christians that I have found has no way of handling that conversation. "Well, I don't, I don't know," and, you know, we, we skirt over it. And so I feel like the last probably 10 years of my journey have been trying to work with questions like that, that are really uncomfortable, but are true to lived experience.
And not only, like you say, in the scriptures, but I would just suggest anyone [00:38:00] who's actually followed Jesus themselves for any amount of time has also experienced the hiddenness of God. And if you haven't, I, I, I don't... I mean, it's like I envy you maybe. Like, I'm not sure how you haven't, right? Because that's been what I've known, and the people that I have done life with, that's what they've known, is these seasons and these moments where you go, "I don't know where God is.
I don't know what God is doing. I don't know why God isn't answering this prayer." And, you know, and then you sit with people who are grieving, and we say, "We don't know why God didn't answer this prayer," right? And sitting with that, when you have to not only find the language, but you have to find a theology that stands up in that moment, it's a very different task.
And I love a, a quick phrase you said earlier, but you said, "You know, when we bring this into the church service, it makes other people uncomfortable." Like, you're making me feel, you know, down. I don't wanna feel that, so let's move on. You should just get over it. [00:39:00] That is really the pain point, is it makes others uncomfortable to sit in this space.
And so for those of us who want to or need to, and then you look around and you're like, "Will you sit with me? Will you join me in this?" And, you know, for a lot of us, what we find is the answer is no. Get on with it. Move on. Do it somewhere else, and then come back, you know, when you're ready. And that is just so false to not only what we've been handed, but to the lived experience for most of us.
Jack Reese: Yeah, yeah. On the cross, Jesus' almost last words as he quoted a hymn Psalm 22, God, my God, are you hiding from me?" it's you, thought I want... I mean, isn't that what the, the prayer that he prayed in the garden just just hours before, "If it be your [00:40:00] will, please take this away from me. I don't want this." Why are you hiding from me? And, and yet the, the Psalm itself, 'cause Jesus knew the whole Psalm as he, as he began the opening verse, but the s- the last words of the Psalm are I think, "God has done all these, these amazing things" the, the, the hiddenness is not the final word, and the last words are, "For He, God, has done it." Which was, of course, exactly what was taking place on, on the cross. God's presence and God's absence in the same moment, in the same event. Yeah, we don't need to run quickly from God's hiddenness because we see something of God's nature there.
Jeremy: Hmm. That's good. Okay, you have this line that I loved, "Doubt's role is to keep a check on our own arrogance." There's a lot of, uh, I suspect you've met them, a lot of very arrogant [00:41:00] Christians who do not doubt and who arrogantly say that you should not doubt. Talk about... I- if someone's like, "All right, I really don't want to, but maybe I should give this..."
I- i- if this alone isn't worth it, I think, you know, everything else is. But talk about how do you see this as, as a natural check on any sense of arrogance when you actually make room for this?
Jack Reese: By its essence, faith says, "I don't know for sure, but I trust anyway. If I knew for sure, it would not be faith." In some ways to say I doubt is, is a definitional word. I am defining faith. If faith knows for sure, it is not faith. The person who says, "I do not doubt," or as I hear from time to time from certain preachers, some of whom are very [00:42:00] prominent, some of whom have written a lot of books about this, "If you doubt y- y- you are sinning, and this is the reason why God is not blessing you. You need to find your way back to God because you know, God is present with you, and you need to see him, and you need to stop doubting." The person who says, is a sin and you must not doubt because I don't doubt," may be the the epitome of of, of arrogance. I mean, it is back to Paul, the language of knowledge puffs up. Love builds up and knowledge puffs up. The, the sense that I know what God wants, I know what God is doing, I know who God is, I never doubt God's existence, all the answers are clear to me is both arrogant and [00:43:00] immature it seems to me. It, it reveals a, a, a lack of understanding of of, of God's nature.
I don't know how someone mature in the faith can say "I, I know now. I know now. I didn't know before. I was a young minister, I was a young Christian, I didn't know, but now I know." It seems to me that the older one gets the less one is willing to a, to judge other people, to condemn others. The less one is able to say, "I, I pretty much have the answers here."
I if, if the church in our troubled times were able to present a faith that says "I don't know for sure- you and I disagree on some really, fundamental issues, but I love you anyway and I'm willing to learn from you. Let's [00:44:00] talk. We'd, we'd have a different kind of presence in the world and a different kind of future than the future that we have right now, where the church seems to know all the answers, and has turned unbelieving world off the point that it may be generations before we can catch their attention again.
Before God can catch God's a- attention through the, the lives of the Church as we engage with others. These are, these are hard times, and arrogance is not helping us
Jeremy: I, I love that, and I'll just add this. I, I have watched that as people get older, the... one of two things can happen. What you just said is, is one option. There is also a hardening that happens, where as people get older, they get more set in their ways, they are... They double down, they become more close-minded, harder to interact with, more arrogant, and there's almost this idea of, "I have seen it all.
I have done it all. Thus saith the Lord, you know, don't even... [00:45:00] How, how dare you even argue with me?" kind of a posture. And I think we all know those people, and so age by itself does not make one more humble and less arrogant. But as I listen to you I think, "This is how I wanna sound when I'm 75." I want to have the same humility that I hear from you, which is, "Hey, I used to be more convinced of things than I am now.
I used to have more answers than I have now." And even, you know, again, I'm, I'm 43. I, I would say that has been up to this point in my life. I look at things I said in my 20s, sermons that I gave, and I just shake my head 'cause I was, I was convinced this is it, you know? And now I'm like, "I don't know." And even I get...
You know, I was asked recently about what are the essentials of Christianity, and I kinda had to chuckle 'cause I thought, "You know what? I used to think that was a pretty established list." And these days, I even that, I hold so loosely of can we rally around Jesus? And even if we understand [00:46:00] Jesus differently, like, I'm okay with that.
Like, I just don't have the same guardrails, you know, that I used to that were so tight. And so I do just wanna acknowledge that it's not just you got older and of course this is what you did. This is a choice you made, and I think for anyone listening, this is, this is the fruit of a lifestyle of doubt, of healthy doubt, to say, "I'm gonna hold this loosely.
I'm not going to, you know, be certain all this." And it has produced someone who doesn't sound arrogant, who doesn't sound like, you know, "Come gather around and let me tell you all the answers that I have figured out." And so I just wanna, I, I wanna acknowledge that in you just hearing that because I think it's, it's remarkably refreshing because not everybody gets to age 75 and has that.
Jack Reese: You're, you're kind. I know my arrogance is more than than, than most. So I, I am aware of, of how much I still have to, to learn. You obviously read Richard Rohr. [00:47:00] I've seen in the things you've written and heard enough to know that you, that you love Richard Rohr. But Richard Rohr's book, Falling Upward gets at some of this, that there, there is a time in a person's life in which the, a, a black and white world is helpful. when you're a child, you need to live in a black and white world. Don't cross the street, it's dangerous. That's true when you're three. It may not be true when you're 23. When you're 23, you have to use some discernment. There are some things you're aware of. When you're 23 y- you know most of the answers to the most important questions. And when you're 53 you know that most of the answers that you came up with at 23 don't work anymore. And you know that there are people who have screwed things up in their lives and the lives of others, who are still made in God's image, who still are servants [00:48:00] of the King, as flawed and broken people. And, and, and at 73 or 75, it's just harder to, to look down at others and say, "Oh my that's really a shame. I can't believe they did that. I can't believe... I, I'm, I'm gonna have no part of, of them." I, I'm just more willing for God to use broken people. And the older you get, the more broken you are, and the more broken you, you are aware the world is. We're saved by a broken Savior, and and our relationship with God does not depend upon our not being broken anymore
Jeremy: Amen. All right, let's switch gears a little bit. I wanna ask you some wine questions. I want you to think about, and I'm excited for this 'cause you are an a person who can appreciate a good glass. If I were to ask you, Jack, what's the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life? Can you think about, does one story emerge?
Can you think about where [00:49:00] you were, who you were with, what you were drinking? W- anything come to mind for you?
Jack Reese: yeah, several. Let's just go with one, though. Two years ago Lisa and I and a couple of our dear friends from here, spent two weeks in Australia. And we, we spent most of our time, in Adelaide and, and in the South Australian wine district. Got to see some dear friends. We found some good wines, but everyone kept telling us we need to go to the Dandelion Vineyard.
There is woman there, I think from Bulgaria, named Elena, who had created this wonderful winery, and we couldn't find it. We, I don't know. The maps were wrong. We couldn't find it. On our last day, found this wonderful winery, the Dandelion Winery. And the, the, the wine tasting is done in a room called the Wonder Room,
Jeremy: Nice
Jack Reese: the [00:50:00] room is almost-- I mean, the, the, the structure's almost entirely of glass and, and you're able to look down the lawn and down the hill and into a valley, and the valleys across the way, and you see all the grapes in the vineyard growing.
And, and you didn't, you know, do just a traditional wine tasting, but they have a chef there, so it's all about pairings. And so, she would bring the first dish, and then would pair it and then a second dish, and we had about five dishes, and we got to meet the, the owner and just fell in love with the place.
And the one who was serving us said "All right. We've given the w- wines we typically give our, our wine tasters. Elena is-- wants you to taste this wine. This is a, a wine that she's really proud of." And she put-- she just put the wine bottle on the table and walked away. And the person the couple that we were with, the woman and the, and the couple, she grabbed that bottle and she poured a big fu- a full pour for all [00:51:00] four of us. Big full pour. we drank that, and then she poured another... and everyone just left us alone. We drank the entire bottle over the next hour. No one said a word. That bottle was around three hundred dollars we found out
Jeremy: Oof!
Jack Reese: it wasn't just the taste of it, it was the people, it was the place, it was the community, it was the food, it was sitting in God's creation. of that came together. That is a taste of wine I will never forget.
Jeremy: That's a great story, Jack. Ugh, I can just imagine it. I love that
Jack Reese: have a chance to go to the Wonder Room at the Dandelion Vineyards, you should go. it is worth worth the travel, my
Jeremy: Add it to the list. I like it.
Jack Reese: sir
Jeremy: Okay, which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you,
Jack Reese: 嗯
Jeremy: and who would you not trust, and [00:52:00] why?
Jack Reese: You know, it was a long time ago that I studied church history, and I don't remember ever this question arising.
Jeremy: They don't ask you about wine drinkers, huh?
Jack Reese: nah, didn't talk about it at all. All righty, let me, let me play it this way. This is the best that I can do what I would want to do with it would to be to sit at a table in the Eagle and Child Pub in Oxford, or The Bird and The Baby they call it, on St.
Giles Street near where Thomas Cranmer was burned at the stake With C.S. Lewis as the host of the table with the Inklings gathered around, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Williams, and Owen Barfield, and whoever else might be around at that time. Now, they would mostly be drinking ale but they would gladly pour a glass [00:53:00] of wine. To have C.S. Lewis pour a glass of wine and say, "Let me tell you a story," yeah, I could could do that.
I could,
Jeremy: Drinking with C S. Lewis would be pretty next level stuff
Jack Reese: it, it would be. The one I, I wouldn't, I don't know a, a lot about the inclinations of church histor- or the, the, the, the major figures in church history and, and their inclinations toward wine. This is the closest I can get. Zwingli in the Swiss Reformation Zwingli was concerned about anything sensuous, anything that the senses touched that might be a distraction away from the beauty of God And so Zwingli who was a great musician, forbade music in his churches.
No [00:54:00] music at all. Antiphonal know responsive readings of the, of the songs, but that, but that's all. And if he was that way about music, which he loved he would certainly not want to serve a glass of wine that one might cherish for its beauty. So maybe, maybe not Zwingli. I think I'll let Zwingli drink to himself.
Jeremy: I follow your logic on that one. Yeah, I'm not going Zwingly either. If you're, if you're trying to get rid of anything that arouses your senses you are not gonna enjoy a nice glass of wine with that guy
Jack Reese: Yep, yep. I, I'm fairly certain that's correct
Jeremy: That's awesome. Okay, what is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Jack Reese: I come from a a fellowship of people, a denomination that had great confidence in human reason, had [00:55:00] great confidence in humans' ability to understand what God wants and to do it. We did not talk about, humans being fallen. It's not that we didn't believe in sin, we just that you could understand what God wants and, and you could do what God commands, and that when you did that, God would save you I no longer have that kind of confidence in humans. I don't have confidence in me that I can understand and get everything right. I don't have confidence that the church will always understand and get everything right that all you have to do is just sit and read the Bible and you will come up with all the right answers. I think when humans fell, we fell hard. And so I at, at its best a good This theology of sin is [00:56:00] about the sovereignty of God. God is capable of taking broken, sinful, people and doing something marvelous with them. I've seen it happen, just in others' lives, but in, in my own. And I I, I have confidence in God, but I don't have a lot of confidence in humans
Jeremy: Fair enough. What is something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
Jack Reese: I, I've read a, a book recently, I listened to it actually on Audible by Charles King, who is an American cultural anthropologist who has written a book about Handel's Messiah called Every Valley It's one of the most remarkable books I've, I've, I've, I've read or heard. It's worth listening to it.
The, the, the reader, [00:57:00] the narrator is just so extraordinary. She has a wonderful British accent. She plays, the, the stories of what was going on in Handel's life so well. But the premise is we make a mistake if we look at Handel's Messiah Only for the music and trying to understand what the music was doing, what the music was saying, what, what the libretto, what the words were, were doing, what the words were saying. And so in, in this book, he paints a, a magnificent picture of the culture of the times. Of the British king, of the tragedies of slavery, of, of all these pieces that made this such a difficult world, and why Handel's Messiah in that context was so life-giving. Why within a decade or so, it, it, it, it [00:58:00] became the, the balm that began to heal the wounds of the times and, and of the people.
And, and it's, and it struck me harder than I've ever been struck I think that, that that's also and always the world in which we live. We are being shaped by our world around us. And the issues that we think are important and way we couch our language, the way we speak to others, is reflective of the context and culture in which I live, in which my church lives, in which the people in this city live and our nation and, and our times.
We're always affected by our times. When, when the book Prayer of Jabez came out that, that you pray that God would, would you know, e- expand your, your fields, your possessions. The Prayer of Jabez has, has been used over and over and over and over again in Scripture, but this is the first time it w- has [00:59:00] ever been read mean something related to personal wealth. Only an American, only a modern American could take the Prayer of Jabez and make it about expanding my, my, my wealth.
Jeremy: Talk about summer Christians
Jack Reese: that's right. Yeah. so I, I am hit again by how much our culture is affecting us. We, we see it in the, in the political conversations today the whole Christian manhood the whole notion of white Christian nationalism. There is something in the culture and, and I, I, I, I hope that the winds are beginning to blow differently, but we will always be affected by the winds in which we live, by, the Holy Gust, as they say that that our times and our culture express to us ways and means by which we may see and know and know God.
So, that's a long story, but Charles King is, who as far as [01:00:00] I know, is not a believer- wrote a book that, that was as inspirational as anything that that I've read in the last decade
Jeremy: That's good. All right, Jack, we've covered a lot. Is there anything that I have left off that I have not asked you about that we can't wrap this up unless you get to say?
Jack Reese: Nah, you've done well. We've had a great conversation. are many things in the book, as you know, that we have not talked about, but I don't feel the need to make sure that someone knows this part or that
Jeremy: On that note, you can go and, and check out the book. How, if someone is resonating with this and they're like, "I wanna find out more," what's the best way for them to connect with your work online?
Jack Reese: probably they could either go to my Substack just Jack Reese and, and, and you'll find it there. Or it, it would connect with Grace Sideways. My website you can get to it several ways, but gracesideways.com will get there, and there are some other resources. That's also a way if anyone wants just to reach out or write me a note. Go to [01:01:00] gracesideways.com and, and, and and send me a note, and I'll, I'll be glad to email, call. I don't do Facebook. I don't do Insta. I've been a conscientious objector to those for a long time, but I, I do love talking to people about these things, and so I would love to visit with anyone who wanted to reach out
Jeremy: Well, there you go. I'll put all those links in the show notes for anyone listening. Jack, it's been a delight to get to know you and to hear your, your journey and your perspective, and I'm grateful for the book you're, you're putting into the world, and also just the, the posture in which you're showing us how to follow Jesus.
So thanks for p- spending the time with us today, and, uh, thank you for all the work that you're doing
Jack Reese: Thank you. It's been my pleasure. Love your work and keep going, man
Jeremy: I will. We, we got a lot of work to do. So on that note, thank you for everyone for tuning in with us. We will see you next week on Cabernet and Pray
