The Judas Effect (with Amy Hawk) | Ep. 90
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Jeremy (2): [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we drink good wine and we explore the deeper story of Christianity.
Today, we have got a fascinating conversation with an author named Amy Hawke. In addition to being an author, she has been a Bible teacher for decades. She's also a prolific YouTuber and social media content creator, I think is the official way to say that.
She's doing a lot to speak truth into this season right now. What I appreciate about Amy is that her story is not like a lot of the stories that you hear on this podcast. In particular, she tends to come from a more conservative background, and that's really where her journey has been. Yet I love the way she has seen what she's seen, she has responded to it, and today she's inviting us all to think about how we do it and to offer us a better way forward.
We're talking about her latest book and a [00:01:00] lot of very provocative ideas in that. This episode is called The Judas Effect
I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just [00:02:00] duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know.
I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology. So I, oh. I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently, the wine is... But [00:03:00] here we are.
Queer we are. Here we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. I'm an emotional guy. Paired with a half a glass of wine, I'm beet red, sweating, and about to cry. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you had your guests drink wine.
It makes sense now. Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice. Cabernet and pray, yeah
Jeremy: well, today's guest has spent the majority of her life in my favorite place, the Pacific Northwest. And if you needed even more proof of her PNW street cred, things got serious with her now husband when he drove his 1990s Pine Cree- Green Subaru to her house. Amy, welcome to the show.
Amy Hawk: Oh, Jeremy, thank you so much. Okay, I can tell you, you actually read the book when you pull out little [00:04:00] details
like
Jeremy: when you're talking about a 1990s, Subaru, you're just showing off your PNW there. I mean, that's just like look at, look at how PNW we are
Amy Hawk: That's right. Well, and let me just correct you slightly there. It wasn't my
house, It,
was my
Jeremy: it was, yes, it was a cabin. But for the sake of clarity, I just simplified it, yes
Amy Hawk: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I just, I wanted even more street cred with the
Pacific Northwest
Jeremy: Yes. It was a cabin, yes, even, even more remote. I was just trying to simplify it for, for, you know, the common folks that don't understand the glory of the PNW, right? So, uh, you just have a little teaser there for where we're going. We're gonna talk about, hopefully, a little bit of the PNW, but we're also gonna talk about what we're drinking today.
I have got a 2019. This is a reserve cab called Ideology. This is from Napa Valley, this thing is big and bold, and the [00:05:00] color is everything that I was hoping for. I would like, I think, a meal with this, but I don't have a meal with this. We're just gonna have a delightful conversation. But this thing is big.
I'm getting big fruit notes, blackberry, black cherry, a little bit of pepper as well
Amy Hawk: Oh, it looks amazing
Jeremy: I'm not gonna lie, it's delightful. I've had this one for a little bit, and I thought, "I'm gonna pull it out today," and I'll tell you why, Amy. I'm gonna connect this to our conversation. So this wine is literally called Ideology. I didn't name it. It's what the wine is called. Today we're gonna discuss what happens when the church trades Jesus for an ideology.
See what I did there?
Amy Hawk: I see
what you did there. That was
Jeremy: that's why I'm a pro at this. I can connect wine to just about any story. So we're gonna talk about ideology today while I drink Ideology, and I suspect [00:06:00] the ideology in my glass will taste better than the ideology you're gonna talk to us about. But I don't wanna spoil anything before we get there.
So that's what I'm drinking. Amy, what do you have in your glass?
Amy Hawk: Okay, what I have in my glass is 2026 watermelon flavored Airborne
Jeremy: Wow
Amy Hawk: that I was gonna try to pass off as wine.
Jeremy: It has an interesting color, yes
Amy Hawk: Yes, it's a little pinker than I was thinking. Um, but I got heatstroke yesterday. Talk about being in the Pacific
Jeremy: Wow
Amy Hawk: It was, yeah, 90 degrees here in Oregon yesterday. I was outside on the river. I got a touch of heatstroke, and when I woke up this morning, had a headache, and I was like, "You know, I am so sorry, Jeremy, but I'm gonna have to pretend that this is my wine
Jeremy: Okay. So
Amy Hawk: But it is still delicious and, and [00:07:00] beautiful, and it has fruity notes and vitamin C and
Jeremy: And hope- hopefully it'll give you what you need for our episode today
Amy Hawk: I think it will. I, I really felt like I wanted to go with the elec- extra electrolytes today, and so that's, so that's what I've
got.
Jeremy: cheers to you, and hopefully you are enjoying a real wine at home and not feeling heatstroke, and you're feeling good. But if you are, hopefully you've got something delightful in your glass as you join us
Amy Hawk: I couldn't lie. I was gonna try to pass it off, but
Jeremy: Yeah, that doesn't,
Amy Hawk: I was like, "Better to
Jeremy: it doesn't look like wine. I would have had some follow-up questions for you on, on that one
Amy Hawk: Yeah.
Jeremy: when you showed it to the camera. Okay. You have a line that says, "I let the evangelical church lead me until she took me to a place I couldn't follow." So Amy, for someone who may not know your story, let's, let's get a little bit of [00:08:00] that journey.
Tell us the last 10 years. How has your faith changed in the last 10 years?
Amy Hawk: Okay. Well, to back up just a little bit more, we were very immersed in white evangelicalism, uh, to the degree I was discipling, um, and teaching a Sunday school class to adults, teaching at a private Christian school to children, teaching Bible. Uh, my husband was on the worship team. We both served as elders in our church off and on over the years.
So when I say we were at church every weekend, I'm talking about not just at weekend, but like pretty much every time the doors were open. And I tell people in the book, we our kids in Christian school. My car just went from school to church and home again to where we led a Bible study group, and it just made that circle, and it did that [00:09:00] for about 25 years until 2016 happened, which was 10 years ago, and our entire, the entire evangelical bubble that we were living and moving and breathing in just completely collapsed around us.
And I'll let you cl- you know, clue people in on as to why that happened in 2016
Jeremy: Okay, so then take us from there. So 2016 to now, what has your faith journey been like?
Amy Hawk: So we eventually stepped out of our church environment. It was really, really difficult for us because like I said, that was our entire life. We had built our entire adult lives on serving and ministering through the institution of evangelicalism. And we finally came to the point where we realized that because of some [00:10:00] of the different ideologies that were swimming around in the church, because of the, um, idolization, we felt like the celebration and enabling of a sexual predator, and criminal, and con man, we didn't feel comfortable inviting people And so then it started dawning us, like, if you can't invite people to the place where you're spending most of your time, maybe you shouldn't be there either.
So
Jeremy: it's a logical conclusion to draw from that, yeah
Amy Hawk: yeah. It, it took us actually a few years to draw that conclusion because, um, we loved our church, we loved our pastor. We just honestly felt God's cloudy pillar was guiding us out, and have never looked back. We are closer to Jesus today than, we were then, and it is [00:11:00] because I think what we needed to learn was that Jesus is everywhere. You... If you are seeking Him, you will find Him. It doesn't have to be within the walls of the church.
And the church has a lot of great, you know, attributes, and if that's your journey and you're comfortable there, you know, that's wonderful and truth is being preached. But we started feeling uncomfortable in our spirits, and, that's... So today, we, we worship outside of the traditional church environment, although I will say we both have prayer groups.
We both have friends that we meet with. We still take communion. So it just looks different
Jeremy: So how was that received from your community when you decided, "Hey, I think Jesus is leading us elsewhere"?
Amy Hawk: Угу It was difficult. Um, [00:12:00] our immediate pastor understood how we felt because we had ha- we had been having conversations with him all along. the greater, I would say, the greater sentiment from, we were in an Assemblies of God at that, at that time, um, there was some anger directed at us.
There was some shunning. Um, there was lo- actual loss of friendships. I lost my two best friends that I had had for, we raised our kids with, you know, 25 years. and that wasn't so much just because we left. It was also because after we left, I got very vocal, and I started speaking out on my website, and, um, that was hard for a lot of people.
So I mean, still to this day, I can go to the grocery store, and [00:13:00] somebody from our church may turn away from me, and I'm never sure, oh, did they really not see me, or, know, am I, have I just become an object of some, you know, of shunning? And so it's kind of been, it was a very difficult journey.
Jeremy: Yeah, this is the, this is the common story for anyone who has gone down this road is you can do something that you know is right, and then as you say, like, "I'm closer to Jesus than I've ever been." And on one hand that just sounds so good, right? Like, this has been a great journey, and we're finding Jesus, and we're following Jesus.
This is amazing. And yet there's this huge pain that comes with it of, but it has meant that our community treated us like this or responded like this, and now I go to the grocery store and I have to decipher the looks that I'm getting, you know? And, and so many people listening to this, that's the world we live in, right?
Like, that's the yeah, we, we have paid that price. And, uh, and then again, you know, so you took it up a notch. You [00:14:00] decided not only to do that, but then I'm gonna be vocal about it. Some listeners decide to go that route. Some people are just kind of like, "No, I'll let other people be vocal. I'm not gonna do it."
As you've gotten more vocal, uh, I would imagine it's gone from even whatever it was when you left to now, hey, we have to kind of oppose you or stop this or offer a rebuttal. What does that look like in your context?
Amy Hawk: I've had to just pull away from some certain, um, friend groups that just couldn't tolerate me being vocal. I had to get to a place with Jesus where I felt that he was saying, "Do not be intimidated by the voices that are opposing you." And I think that's a journey that all of us need to take. When you know that you are standing up for justice, you're standing up for truth. I've never done anything except tell [00:15:00] the truth. It's just that truth interrupts people's preferred politics. So, you know, you can go out and say, "He's a criminal, he's a felon." "Well, you're just, you know, have TDS." I'm like, "No, I'm telling you the truth." And so to me, I had to decide in my heart, with Jesus, is it more important to me to tell the truth, or is it more important to me to have the approval people who are living outside of it?
Even though my heart is tied to them and I do love them, and we have had a relationship all these years, but I couldn't, couldn't shut up. I mean, I tried. I tried to be quiet and just kind of shrink back, and God was not having that. So I had to choose to obey him as opposed to win the approval of, of certain people.
Jeremy: I've had people, you know, in my own life, "Hey, why do you, why do you have to say that? Why do you have to write that? [00:16:00] Why can't you just let it go?" And there's a part of me, and I suspect you, I wish I could. Like, my life would be so much more peaceful if I could. I just can't. Like it's n- like legitimately not an option.
And so when it's not an option, it's like you, you ... It's like I have to. I have to say this. I have to acknowledge this. And I do think people, if they're not wired that way and they don't see what you see, they can look at you like you're just choosing this for fun. And I think it's good to add the personal story of what it costs, because you're not doing this for fun.
This has not been an enjoyable experience. It's been a very painful experience, and that pain is what unites a whole bunch of people on this same journey
Amy Hawk: Absolutely. And I'm glad you said that part about y- um, you know, you've seen... Uh, what happened with me is I did try to shove back what I felt I was discerning in the Spirit. I did try to do that. I wanted to be on board because I didn't [00:17:00] wanna go against my church, and prior to 2016, entire adult life I w- voted conservative Republican.
I mean, that's what you did. I, I, um, wrote a book, oh, you can't see it here, but with the help of Senator John McCain, my first book about a um, in Vietnam. And so, you know, I voted for John McCain. I voted for Mitt Romney. I did what I was expected. So I, I wanted to be on board with Donald Trump, what happened is I saw him mocking a disabled person. I heard him mocking women and basically saying it's okay to be aggressive toward, toward women if you're rich. I, um, I heard him at rallies stand up and say from a high platform to a crowd of people, "I am here to save you. I'm the only one who can save you." And my... I mean, the Holy [00:18:00] Spirit inside of me, there were just alarm bells going off everywhere. So it's not like I am opposing him because of I don't like, um, his policies or even some of the things he's done. I'm opposing him because I think he presents a great spiritual danger to us all. And if we are not willing to listen to the warnings of the Holy Spirit, and if we are not willing to take those warnings in Scripture seriously that say, "Do not be deceived by a deceiver. Do not fall for this kind of shameless con. Do not align yourself with a criminal and bully for power." I mean, these warnings are all over the Scripture. So if you want to disobey Scripture and disobey the warnings of the Holy Spirit, you do you, boo, but I cannot go there with you.
Jeremy: Oh, there we go. There's your quotable clip for, for the episode. [00:19:00] Okay, so let's play off that, 'cause I think that's an interesting connection. You have a phrase in the book. You say, "As inconvenient as it is, for those like myself who lean politically conservative." So it's what you just said, and you, you're honest about that.
Like, that's where... You're not writing this, you're not saying what you're saying as a progressive with an ax to grind, right? That's not your story. But I think people might hear the idea, "Evangelicals betrayed Jesus," and they go, "Oh, this must be partisan," right? "This must be progressive." They m- might wanna just close the book, shut it down.
What do you want a conservative to hear who wants to dismiss you out of the gate because they want to label you in some box that makes it easy to dismiss? What do you want a conservative-leaning person to hear that, that maybe would change it for them?
Amy Hawk: Number one, we are never called in scripture to win a culture war or to dominate [00:20:00] people with our religious beliefs. are never called to partner with a bully for political power. of course, what a counterfeit spirit, what a masquerading person is going to do to win favor with conservatives is approach you with a godly agenda. But what we should be wary of. We should be most wary of a person who is willing to offer us everything we want on a silver platter if we will overlook his transgressions, his criminality, his abuse of women, his misogyny, his racism. of that we're willing to essentially endorse and support and embrace if he will just give us the power we so desperately crave.
And I hear the Holy Spirit saying, [00:21:00] "Don't take it. I never called you to take it. You don't need to take it. What you need to do is humble yourselves," because what Jesus has really called us to do is go out into the world with loving, generous, kind, compassionate spirits to everyone. If we wanna see the Kingdom of Heaven come to Earth, and, and that's what we're kind of hiding behind with this whole let's partner with Donald Trump for political power so that we can, you know, have God's kingdom on Earth, for heaven's sakes, we don't need political power.
We need spiritual power. We need humility. We need to wash people's feet, and then we will see the changes in the world that we say we really want. But it's not going to come to us by partnership with, an abuser
Jeremy: And, you know, when you say it like that, it's like, well yeah, of course. But the complexity is, you know, he gave that person, particularly a conservative, [00:22:00] the ability to say, "Oh, this is the pro-life candidate," and because of that one out, you know, they could, they could feel like this is the o- the, the one that God endorses, and then it's like the rest of what you just said doesn't matter.
And I think, you know, like you, there's many of us who logically are like, "That is... I don't have the imagination to even understand how you just did that jump," right? Like how you can say because this one looks good, everything else that looks horrendous isn't bad because this one is good, and it really is that simple for a lot of people.
Like, well, this is the issue, and so I'm gonna dismiss it. And then I feel like we're trying to have a conversation about all of these other things that don't seem to matter to them, but you're putting them all together like, "Hey, consider all of it," right? Like this is an entire a- agenda. And you have an, a, a word that's kind of the engine of this book, the word being betrayal, right?
This, this sense of betrayal. [00:23:00] That's a heavy charge, you know, to level against another Christian. Uh, a, a skeptic could say that you're naming opponents as Judas is a power move, right? That, that it's the exact thing that you're diagnosing from the other side. So how do we keep betrayal from becoming a holier weapon in the same fight?
Amy Hawk: Well, okay, the reason that I called it the Judas Effect is because what I saw when I really stepped back and look at the dynamics that are happening here, ministered alongside Jesus. We assume that he was doing the same things that all the other disciples were doing. He was traveling with him. He was, know, we assume that he was doing the miracles, doing all this stuff. But at the end of the day, his was moved by greed. He was willing to betray [00:24:00] the, the love, the, the dignity, the character of Jesus uh, because he had a greedy heart. And that's, that's what I see when I look at evangelicals who have celebrated him, endorsed him, and supported Donald Trump, is I say, "You are detaching yourselves now from the character of Christ because he does not endorse or support those things.
He would be truthful about those. He would say, 'Don't partner with those.'" But it is, in the end, I think a coming out of a Judas type of spirit, a, a spirit that is greedy for power. And we have been discipled in some of our churches to believe that we have the power in America. And I am trying to say, we [00:25:00] don't need it.
If we really want to affect change in America, we don't, don't need it. We need spiritual power, and that comes through humility and service. And because you brought up about the pro-life, I had to do... That was... I had to do a lot of deep soul-searching in my own heart about that issue. And at the end of the day, I, I came to understand that pro-life means from womb
Jeremy: Yeah
Amy Hawk: and that's what it meant for Jesus too.
And so, know, look at what's happening under this administration. We have hundreds of thousands of children dying all over the world because of cuts to USAID. So th- um, this is not pro-life. This is hiding behind [00:26:00] but his agenda is bringing death and destruction and chaos, and it is and harming the very people that we are called to come alongside, um, which is Brown and Black people, you know, immigrants, and people in other countries who have depended on this aid for survival. So now when somebody tries to come at me with that pro-life argument, I mean, there, there's nothing more hypocritical than saying you're pro-life and supporting Donald Trump. And did study, you know, prior to his election and found out that abortion rate does traditionally go up Republican
Jeremy: Right, uh
Amy Hawk: So I, I knew that he was holding that out like a carrot, I knew that in the kingdom of God, it wasn't, it wasn't going to actually come true. You [00:27:00] can't have good fruit coming from a rotten tree. And so I knew it wasn't going to, to bless and prosper God's kingdom by promoting and enabling Donald Trump
Jeremy: Yeah. And for a lot of people, that's something that y- you have to just work through, you have to do a deep dive on and rethink it. And I even... You know, for me, I grew up, I grew up conservative. Uh, I wouldn't consider myself a conservative these days, but, uh, that was my own trajectory, and so I would always say, "Of course, I'm pro-life," you know?
I'm, I'm, I'm Jesus. But then what I had to realize at some point is when you use even that phrase, "I'm pro-life," that phrase has been hijacked by a party to mean something that I believe is very anti-pro-life, right? And so it was a f- funky day for me when I was like, "I'm actually pro-choice because I'm fully pro-life," right?
And that's the only way I can even navigate to a place that honors [00:28:00] life the way I think it should be honored. But it, it... For a lot of us, again, if you've come from any kind of conservative background, that's something you've gotta work through, and I, I appreciate that, you know, you've, you've done the homework.
You've had to work through that as well because it is, it i- becomes this blanket endorsement that then, you know, opens the door for a whole bunch of stuff. So let's rip the Band-Aid off. Let's, let's go to one of the more extreme arguments you make. In chapter nine, you spend time on the parallels between Trump and Hitler, and you call the similarities stunning even while insisting you do not wanna flatten the difference between the two of them.
So my question to you is, why is the comparison worth the risk, and where is the line that you would draw with it?
Amy Hawk: Well, there, uh, in my opinion, there is no way that you can honestly look at this regime and the steps that Donald Trump has taken and not compare it to 1930s Germany. I mean, there [00:29:00] are so many and o- I am not the only one who has, you know, considered this, including hi- uh, historian, you know, uh, actual historians like Timothy Snyder, who are saying that when you have a person come on the scene, first of all, be very suspect when they are calling the press the enemy of the people. Um, be very suspect when they are hiding behind some kind of, you know, godly agenda. very suspect when they are, um, exercising, like, forced patriotism. Like, you're not a patriot if you don't, salute me. So they're, they are conflating themselves with, with what it means to be a patriot. So, um, there's just multiple signs.
I, I read a [00:30:00] huge, um, couple of books on, on Hitler, and I, I came to understanding that he was, you know, obviously a sociopath. He was a misogynist. He was... He wanted chaos. he called immigrants names, some of the very names that we hear Donald Trump repeat. He called people human scum. I mean, that phrasing from Donald Trump comes straight out of Hitler's playbook. I, yeah, I'm willing to go on, on record and say that, uh, I'm willing honestly to go as far as to say this, this is a 1 John 2:18 spirit. This is a very similar spirit, that we are seeing today. And the [00:31:00] reason that I'm willing to say that is because, listen, if we, if we are following Jesus, we should have a spiritual sense of these things and not shy away from that. There wouldn't be so many warnings in scripture about false leaders, leaders who try to put people under a spell, which is what Hitler essentially did, and he used phrasing, he repeated phrasing over and over, just like how I said when Trump got up and kept saying he was here to save us. He used Messianic language to describe himself. And, um, warns about that kind of stuff in his scriptures. Why would God put those warnings in there if we were just going to ignore those because somebody comes along and offers us a pro-life platform? It is foolish to ignore those warnings. Um, it's, in [00:32:00] my opinion, it is a sign that we have gotten so far off track of the Holy Spirit that we have allowed a generation or two or three to be discipled by Fox News. And so our understanding of Christianity is now conflated with propaganda, First propaganda, and we don't know how to separate those. um, and so we're ... Our, spiritual acuity in some ways has been deadened by that. So, you know, that's why I go so far as to say this, this is the 1 John 2:18 spirit, and leave it at that.
Jeremy: You're not really leaving it at that, but yeah, I, I appreciate what you're saying. So you have a few things that you say [00:33:00] that, that don't normally go together, and I'm intrigued at how they fit together in your mind, 'cause this is interesting. You diagnose our president, and you also say you feel an almost maternal, uh, like, feeling toward him, and you pray for him as a lost little boy.
So, you know, both of those are, are kind of like, whoa, that's, that's a lot to try to wrap my head around. Which is the truer posture for the church toward a leader like this, the diagnosis or the prayer for the person? And can you hold both of those without losing one of them?
Amy Hawk: I think you can hold both of them. Now, keep in mind, I wrote this I started writing this book in 2016. At that time, you know, as I was writing, I was heavily in prayer for him. I was praying for his deliverance and for his healing. I saw him as a person who had [00:34:00] no true moral compass pointing north. I, I saw him just kind of spinning around in circles and taking all of us with him. um, I did spend a lot of time in prayer. Sometimes as you're praying, God shows you more and more. And so, this book came out... At the time I wrote it, I wasn't expecting a second presidency. That was the furthest thing from my mind. Um, but the, the Trump 2.0 has only solidified in my mind his second appearance as this i- we are in dire straits So pray for him all you want. Pray for his healing. I [00:35:00] mean, for his deliverance. But we, th- we need deliverance. This country needs deliverance from evil. And, and I think that is the h- is a very high priority what all of us should be praying right now. And, you know, in, in the scriptures we see teaching his disciples to pray, "Deliver us from evil," whatever that looks like.
I mean, that's my daily prayer
Jeremy: A lot of listeners to this podcast have left evangelicalism as a result of many of the things that you're, you're talking about and the churches that support it, and they kept running, right? And they continue to run, uh, as far away from anything that sounds like spiritual warfare. And so your deconstruction, as I understand it, moved you toward more of that world, uh, not less.
So you talk about a physical healing, a trumpet player prophesying over [00:36:00] you, a personal revival on a Saturday night. For someone who hears that language as the same manipulation that they are fleeing from, why do you want them to trust it in your hands?
Amy Hawk: Hmm. That's good. you know, when I write about these things, so what you're referring to is w- we, we used to be very charismatic, Pentecostal. Um, and so we were involved in a lot of that s- spiritual and then, and the healing and all of that stuff. And we have since, um, you know, stepped out, we've stepped out of that. but I still think that when you're following Jesus, you are aware of, you know, what's happening in the spiritual realm sometimes. And we have, uh, we have never stepped away [00:37:00] from Jesus. We have stepped away from more of the, I guess you would call them culty attributes that can come from some parts of being in that environment. Um-
Jeremy: you can expect, right? Some culty attributes
Amy Hawk: Yes. I mean, I own that. You know, I own, I own that we were definitely part of that. what happened for me in my process of untangling myself from these religious systems and structures institutions that I felt were platforming and promoting a criminal, um, I did not go farther away from, from Jesus.
I went closer to him. In fact, I felt that it was him that was helping me untangle myself. So I, [00:38:00] know, for me, the, the been from the institution itself, but it has never been from Jesus, the Son of God, and he confronts, um, in the Gospels, he confronts people who are spiritually empowered to hurt people. I think that those of us who are keeping in step with the Holy Spirit and who have the heart of Christ and, and want to serve and, and want to accurately represent Jesus on the earth, we should do the same. If we see in a position of leadership who is executing evil on people, it is our moral duty to, to speak up and to speak out, and that's what I'm doing
Jeremy: So what would you say to the person that doesn't know how to do that and [00:39:00] detangle everything from the church in the process? So you've been able to navigate that, right? A lot of people don't know how to. They don't know how to go back to the church, how to entertain any of that language, uh, uh, the ideas, the paradigms, without, uh, all the culty attributes, as you mentioned, creeping back in, right?
And so for a lot of people, it's like, "I just don't wanna touch it then." H-how would you maybe encourage that person that's like, "I don't know how to do what you're saying"?
Amy Hawk: Mm-hmm. Well, it helps me to remember that Jesus with us in the wilderness. He's with... He was with John on the island of Patmos. Like, He's with you just as a single person. I think for a long time I was trained to believe that you had to be in a group or a community of people in order for Jesus to really,
Jeremy: have critical mass for him to show up?
Amy Hawk: Yeah. [00:40:00] Yes. So I, I think just starting there, you know, just, just experie- just, um, you know, can you go for a walk in the woods? Can you go for a swim? Can you go for a hike and just enjoy His presence and acknowledge Him without all of the churchy stuff? Just leave that behind, l- l- let Him just be Him, who He is in the, in the Gospels. I think that you might find that there... It's a whole different dynamic and relationship when you approach Him that way. And I know, um, so many people have been hurt by the scriptures, because they have been misused to hurt people. They've been used to women back. They've been used to oppress people and malign people, and they've been misused.
[00:41:00] They've been, you know, in inappropriate ways. And so some of us don't want to approach them again. But for me, I would say That is going to be a really powerful tool for even you... I think you would find Jesus through the scriptures giving you more freedom than you might expect. And that word is so powerful to engage on one and one just with him. Don't... You don't need a, a teacher. We've got a lot of just bad teachers and bad theology.
That's why we're in the place that we are in right now, where, you know, the majority of the church is enabling and supporting an adjudicated predator
Jeremy: the name of God, they're supporting
Amy Hawk: in the name
Jeremy: him.
Amy Hawk: God. So I hear you when you say, "I don't wanna get back into these scriptures," 'cause that's what they [00:42:00] were using to
Jeremy: Yeah
Amy Hawk: uh, if you can do it by yourself without them, I think you will find that Jesus will honor that
time.
Jeremy: good. Not to k- kill, uh, the whole book with a spoiler, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the end here. The book ends with two words: Jesus held. You believe the j- the church's greatest days could still be ahead of her. So here's my question: Is this a book about saving the church or surviving it?
Amy Hawk: It is a book about... Yeah, it's a book more about surviving what we've been through, what we've called church, looking ahead to what it could actually be, to me is a community of people who have the heart of Christ who just wanna go out and serve their neighbor. I think that's all we were ever called to do.
I think that's all we should be [00:43:00] focusing on. And I think if we could, if we could learn from this, if there's anything we could learn from this season, it is that we don't need Trump, we don't need, um, we need to separate ourselves from, from that nationalistic propaganda. Our best days could be ahead of us if we could humble ourselves and do that.
And in my, in the communities that... So I, I started an, an online community on Facebook at Amy Hawk Author, on Instagram, and on YouTube kind of by accident, but what I have found is people, people It's kind of like what the Bible calls the remnant, people who know that there's, this is wrong, um, but we, we still want to do good in the world.
We still [00:44:00] want to be followers of, of Chr- the, the true Christ are coming together to, um, support and encourage and affirm each other in that. So in that way, we could actually have great days ahead. It's just going to look different
Jeremy: Yeah, sometimes I try to imagine, like, my grandkids, you know, like, who don't exist, but my grandkids, like, they may never know this era the way we have known it, right? And they could, they could grow up, and it could be something we read about in the history books, and it makes no sense to them, and, you know, we have to explain it 'cause they're like, "There's no way this is real," you know?
Like, I would love for that to be so foreign to them, and yet I look at, like, my kids, and I'm like, "My kids have grown." Uh, this is all they've known as a kid, right? This has been their defining, shaping years. They've watched the church at large. They've watched Christians support this. They... You know, so, like, [00:45:00] the rest of their lives are going to be shaped by this, no matter where this thing ends, and I think that's what's tricky is this is not just a blip on the, on the map, you know.
We're talking about a generational, multi-generational thing that is gonna have to be endured, uh, and survive for a long time in order, and I, I love that you say that, in order for something new to emerge. But what we have right now has gotta die, and I think we are gonna have to watch the death of it, and w- the, the power structures that all these Christians are putting their faith in, they, those have to die before they go, "Oh, that's not it.
Like, we thought it was, you know. We were convinced this is what Jesus was doing," and then we realize it's not it. And hopefully one day the light bulb comes on, and they go, "I had no idea. I didn't, I didn't see it," you know, even though for many of us, we, we don't know how that's possible. But, um, grateful that you are still holding out hope.
I, I felt a little naive at [00:46:00] times whenever people asked me to offer hope for something, and I'm like, "Look, I get it," you know. It's like things are bad. I'm not trying to sugarcoat any of this. And yet, you know, I think we live in hope, and we live in the hope of what could be, and we, we work toward that. We, we show up every day, and we have these conversations, right?
We invite people into a different imagination, and I think you're doing that, so that's, that's really cool. All right, I wanna ask you a few questions I like to ask everybody, and, uh, we get to compare your answers. First couple ones will be wine ones, which you owe me some good ones since you're drinking an Airborne today, okay?
So I'm expect something good.
Amy Hawk: Airborne wine
Jeremy: So I want you to think about if, if you were to look at your whole life, and hopefully something comes to mind, what's the best glass of wine you've ever had? Like, is there a story that comes to your mind, like, "Hey, this is where we were. This is who I was with," or, "This is what I was drinking"?
If you think about the best wine has ever tasted to you in your life, is there any one story that comes to your mind?[00:47:00]
Amy Hawk: Well, we had the wonderful blessing of going to Italy last
Jeremy: Okay, great spot for it. Yep
Amy Hawk: Yes. And my, so my sister and her husband own a restaurant, and they are wine connoisseurs, and they know what they're doing. Like, I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to wine. And, um, so we traveled with them, so they ordered wine, the dinners and the wine everywhere we went. um, we drank the Cabernet. So I associate the best wine of my life was in Florence summer, to my sister who knows about good wines.
Jeremy: Yeah. Well, someone who knows what they're doing, and in Italy. You put those two together, you've got a pretty good, pretty good recipe. I love it. All right, which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of [00:48:00] wine for you, and who would you not trust, and why?
Amy Hawk: This is so funny. You're, you're assuming I, that I know about wine.
Jeremy: This is your view on church history. This has nothing to do with wine. I'm just using wine as the gateway for us to figure out what you really think about people in the church
Amy Hawk: Okay.
Jeremy: They're gonna bring you a bottle of wine. Who as a person do you go, "You know what? I think this, this person is gonna bring me something good"?
Amy Hawk: But I don't know
Jeremy: It's fine. You don't have to get hung up on the technicalities of that. Let's assume they do for the sake of the question
Amy Hawk: okay, so does it have to be history or can it be, like, a person
Jeremy: Let's go right now if you want to
Amy Hawk: Yeah. I'm gonna say Charlie Dates, Pastor
Charlie Dates, because he is... So I don't know, I can't remember if [00:49:00] I mentioned this, but I am watching church on- online. I'm back to doing that. I stopped for a while. Now I'm kinda gradually. Um, Pastor Charlie Dates is somebody that I look up to and trust with the word of God, with the knowledge of God, um, he preaches really good sermons. He's willing to speak the truth. s- you know, there's a lot of people I don't trust anymore, I trust him, and I have a feeling that he, he would know how to deliver a really good glass, really good
Jeremy: Okay, I like it. Who do you not trust?
Amy Hawk: Um, well, how long do you have? I mean, I don't trust Franklin Graham with anything. I'm not gonna trust Robert Jeffress. I'm not gonna trust, um, you know, basically any of the old white guys [00:50:00] that were, that have led us into this mess. They probably don't know how to pick out a good bottle of wine. And, so yeah, there's like a whole segment of the church that I... If you would've asked me 10 or 12 years ago, I would've said, "Oh yeah, these are great guys," you know? And now I'm like, "No, don't. not gonna take anything that you have to offer."
Jeremy: And I, I just love that, that insight because I think it's helpful for people. You can change your mind. Like, to someone listening, you can change your mind, right? And Amy's giving you such a great story of someone who's like, "12 years ago, I would've told you something totally different," but you changed your mind because of what you saw and the facts that you saw, and you didn't look away.
And this is what I encourage people, and I think this is a huge role of the Holy Spirit, is to help us change our minds, right? To show us something and then stir something up in us to go, [00:51:00] "Oh, I can't look away. I've gotta do something about it," right? Like, that is one of the most beautiful roles that I have found with the Holy Spirit, is that I think she allows you to change your mind, where you're like, "I used to believe that, and now I don't."
And, uh, so I love that, and I love that that's been a journey for you. On that note, what is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Amy Hawk: Um I used to believe women shouldn't
preach. Mm-hmm. when we first entered into the evangelical church. We were in a very, we were in an environment where women couldn't lead or, or preach or teach, and I was very much indoctrinated into that belief, um,
Jeremy: you change your mind on that?
Amy Hawk: when God started calling me to preach
Jeremy: You're [00:52:00] like, "Oh, I..." You know, it's funny, I've interviewed numerous women, that has been their story. Like, literally, I don't think I can do this, but I feel God asking me to do it, so I have to revisit this with God because how would I do something that God doesn't want me to do, right? But I love that, like, the act of God ask you to do it is what forces you to, like, maybe I should rethink this then because this is what God's asking me.
That's amazing
Amy Hawk: Well, and he did, you know, t- also to say how nervous I was about it, um, it was right around at that same time that we, we moved from Washington, Washington i- to Oregon. And so we changed churches, and without knowing it, we joined a church where the pastor, he, he was, um, he was encouraging me. He was actually st- asking me to step out and start teaching Sunday school classes and teach and, and that, and I preached a couple of times, uh, in his church, and then I started getting asked to preach in different churches.
So at the same time that God was already [00:53:00] working in my heart toward that, we switched leadership, and then all these books started coming my way. Um, so I did investigate the, the scriptures along those lines as well. But it kind of goes back, too, to God pours new wine into new wineskins, and if you're gonna be old and inflexible, um, you're, you're not gonna get that, that new wine.
You have to be open to the Holy Spirit. And, you know, if he shows you something new, wrestle it out with him. But y- we have to be open to the Holy Spirit. He's gonna do what he wants to do
Jeremy: To be fair though, I do like drinking old wine. So yes. So old wine and new wine, I drink it all. They're all good. For the sake of the illustration, I agree with you, but since we're talking wine on a podcast, I also have to add a disclaimer there. Uh, what's something that's blowing your mind right now?
Something you're learning or thinking about
Amy Hawk: [00:54:00] Okay. Um, what is blowing my mind right now is that... This, this is blowing my mind. God is using, in my opinion, social media, um, women, um, people of color to lead us in a new direction. So, so many of us has, have stepped out of our white evangelical institutions, and I am blown away by the community of people that I have found online, you know, on YouTube, um, that feel the same way and that have, have left their institutions but they haven't left the heart of God, and I do think that He is opening doors to [00:55:00] bring us together. I mean, even this, this podcast to me, it's something that, you know, I feel like we couldn't have predicted 10 or 12 years ago that, that this would be an avenue for God's grace and healing, bringing us together for conversation.
I mean, this is chur- this is like the new church
Jeremy: I, I, I have had people tell me that, you know, and it made me uncomfortable at first. Like, "No, no, no, no, that's not what this is." You know, I felt like I had to like, like, "No, no, no, don't call it that." And then I, I came to the realization of like, yeah, that's how God is using this. And, you know, there's, there's a something happening.
And so for a lot of people, they don't feel comfortable going to a church building, and they don't feel comfortable supporting the institution of the church in America right now, and I totally get that, and I make space for that. And so, you know, if someone's listening to this right now and they're like, "That's me, I'm not stepping foot in a church," I'm glad you're listening to this.
Like, you're listening to a [00:56:00] conversation about Jesus showing up, you know, in the midst of the church's failure in this regard, and you're still entertaining it. You're open to it. And so I think that's super cool, and it is... I, I do love, you know, as a person, I used to be a lead pastor, so all of the, the requirements and the, you know, the, the rules you gotta follow with that.
A podcast, like, you can go anywhere you want. You can talk about what you want. You know, there's not children's ministry, you know, telling you, "Hey, wrap it up. We gotta turn the parking lot." It's great. And so you just let these conversations go and, you know, I get to explore a lot of conversations that would be very tough to have in a church building, um, but on this p- you know, in this kind of a medium, you're able to do it
Amy Hawk: And it kinda makes you think maybe this is what church was supposed to be all along. You know, it's a, we're supposed to be talking things out and having conversations with people. Um, who says that, that there, that church necessarily was [00:57:00] always supposed to be the same guy preaching down on us week after week after week?
I mean, I don't see that in there. So, um, I... To me, this feels, you know, and we're having... A lot of my conversations, we're talking about scripture, we're talking about what's, what's God doing. I mean, that's, that is coming together and, and talking about him and look, we're having communion together, and this is... It, it does seem of uncomfortable for those who, we say the word church and, and we have that connotation of what that is. But we can broaden our perspective of what that really means, and I, I think it's a beautiful thing
Jeremy: Cheers to that, Amy. I agree.
Amy Hawk: Cheers,
Jeremy: right, is there anything I haven't asked you that you're like, "Look, we can't close this out before I get a chance to say this"? Anything you wanna add to this conversation? We've covered a lot
Amy Hawk: We've covered a [00:58:00] lot, and I, I guess I just, I just want people to know how loved they are. I know so many people are hurting. So many people are depressed and in despair for good reason, because we are, are seeing people be so badly hurt and displaced. And this is happening on our watch, which is so painful, um, and it's happening under the guise of a godly agenda, which is a betrayal, it's, it's really hard.
I mean, I s- I spent that for... 2016 was mo- probably the most difficult of my life. I spent a lot of it just in bed under the covers, because I felt like my whole world and my worldview was unraveling. And I guess I just want to [00:59:00] say to people, "Don't give up hope. Find people that are going to inspire you, and inspire, you know, your spirit and keep you moving forward, and, uh, you are greatly, greatly loved."
And, um, I also just want to say, where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And so much of our experience in the church has been about boxes and constricting people into spaces and lessening them and oppressing them and pushing them back, and that is not what Jesus is about. He is for you, and he wants your freedom.
He is after your freedom. So with that, I say cheers.
Jeremy: Cheers. I like it. I, I, I like that. All right. If someone's like, "I resonate with her, I like this," what's the best way for them to connect with [01:00:00] you online with what you're doing and, and your book and all of that?
Amy Hawk: I'm on YouTube. I'm doing interviews like, you know, what you're doing here. I'm on, um, Facebook at Amy Hawk Author. on Instagram at Amy Hawk Author, Substack. What I do is I take my, Bible study training, you know, I was a teacher for 20 years, and I turn those into small sort of bite-sized videos to help inspire people and keep them going during this season.
And we are going to look back on that, on this time. Like you said, has been part of your children's lives now forever. This is it. And we are gonna s- we are going to determine who were the truth tellers and who were those who were engaging in hypocrisy to support this [01:01:00] regime. And so I am out there every day telling the truth. I want my grandkids to be able to look back and say, "She told the truth. She exposed the wickedness that some were trying to cover up so that they could have power." So that's what I'm doing online. You can find me at any of those places. I'm just every day out there the truth.
Jeremy: the good fight, Amy.
Amy Hawk: I'm in the good fight.
Jeremy: Well, hey, I am so grateful for your voice, for the, the journey you've been on, the way you are inviting people to change their minds, to see things differently, to speak the truth as well. So thank you for all of that work that you're doing, and thanks for spending an hour with us on the pod today
Amy Hawk: This has been a blast. Thank you for having me, Jeremy
Jeremy: everyone, thanks for tuning in on another episode of Cabernet and Pray. We will see you next Wednesday
