From the Altar Call to the Picket Line (with Heather Cronk) | Ep. 91
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[00:00:00] Welcome, friends, to another episode. I wanna begin by inviting any of you who may live in Arizona to our next tasting event happening Monday, November 2nd at 7:00 PM. This is where we take over a wine bar called The Divided Vine, and we do four different pours of handpicked wine and a conversation. And this conversation will be: Have you ever felt like your theology changed and then your community changed as a result?
I suspect you have. We wanna invite you to come talk about why that happens and what to do about it. We're gonna be looking at some of the insights I took away from my series on the Book of Job, And we're gonna talk about what happens when you don't fit anymore in your community.
So if you live in Arizona, if that is interesting to you, check out the link in the show notes, Monday, November 2nd at 7:00 PM. We'd love to have you join us.
Jeremy: Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray,
where we [00:01:00] drink good wine and we explore the deeper story of Christianity. Today, we have a great conversation about what it means to deconstruct and do something about it. Not just stay in the land of deconstruction, but specifically as you start thinking about reconstruction, what does that look like?
It's a conversation with Heather Crunk. She was a fervent and sanctimonious evangelical from ages 13 to 23. Then she got to seminary, as, as some people do, and she started deconstructing a whole bunch of her beliefs. She found her way into progressive community organizing, where she has worked for the past twenty plus years.
She found the term exvangelical a few years ago and got curious why no one would-- was organizing this group of people, despite there being at least fifteen million of us in that category. She started Project 2112 about a year [00:02:00] ago to connect and organize exvangelicals to disrupt Christian nationalism.
So as you can imagine, this is a fun and lively conversation, and I do wanna let you know, as we get into this conversation, a lot of it is about community. It's about finding your place. It's about feeling like you are in a safe environment to process where you're at and also find ways to lock arms with others and move forward.
Heather's gonna give you a way to do that. I just wanna remind you, that I host an online community where we do the same kind of, work, same kind of conversation around rebuilding your faith around Jesus. So if that is something where you're like, "Hey, I really wanna do that beyond a podcast, wanna be able to ask questions to other people, to grow and learn in real time with other people," that's a phenomenal way to do that, and you can find a link to be a part of our online community in the show notes.
We would love to have you there. This episode [00:03:00] is called From the Altar Call to the Picket Line
I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm [00:04:00] here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know.
I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology. So I, oh- I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is... But here we are.
Queer we are. Beer we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. [00:05:00] I'm an emotional guy. Paired with a half a glass of wine, I'm beet red, sweating, and about to cry. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guests drink wine.
It makes sense now. Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage here to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice. Cabernet and pray, yeah.
Jeremy: Well, our guest today has taken on one of the great logistical challenges of our age: how to organize 15 million people whose single defining trait is that they no longer trust organizations. Heather, welcome to the podcast
Heather: Man, you summed up my life right now so succinctly. Well done, Jeremy. Chef's kiss.
Jeremy: I was looking, you know, from afar at your work, and that's, that's the irony as I look at it, and that's what I'm
Heather: Oh, I feel that, I feel that irony very deeply.
Jeremy: Okay, ' [00:06:00] cause I think, I think listeners to this show are gonna be interested to hear how you pull off what it is that you're doing, and we are gonna dive into that.
Before we do, let's talk about the beverages that we're enjoying today. I'm returning to one, I think I have drank this bottle on a previous episode. This is a Lemelson 2022. This is a Pinot Noir from Oregon. This is the holy land of wine, Heather, if you didn't know. The Willamette Valley, it's got my heart.
This is my favorite. I'm not actually a member of this winery, but they are very good. It's a beautiful Pinot Noir I am enjoying today. I'm getting a lot of fruit notes in mine. The, some of the ones you'd expect, cranberry, cherry. I'm also getting mushroom and vanilla, which are some fun Pinot Noir notes when it's made well, especially from Oregon. this is really good. I'm enjoying this. And I have a fun story for you. I try to tie in my wine [00:07:00] to my guest if I can. Doesn't always work. , Sometimes it does, so you get to be the judge. Here's my segue of, of why this bottle for you. Eric Lemelson did not start out in wine. He actually started out in politics. His early career was a congressional internship, state and national campaigns, and work in the Oregon State Legislature. he went to play guitar in a rock band. he went to law school for environmental law and then finally found his calling as a producer of Pinot in Oregon, which is a good reminder for us today.
You can be whatever you wanna be,
Heather: That's right
Jeremy: grow, you can change, you can say, "Hey, this doesn't make sense. This isn't me." We are not locked in on old versions of ourselves. So that's my segue, Heather. That's what I'm drinking and enjoying. What do you got in your glass today?
Heather: That's a perfect segue. Um, so what, so I'm [00:08:00] not a wine drinker. Um, I'm a beer drinker and I am a bourbon drinker
Jeremy: you actually have bourbon listed on your website, which I
Heather: I do.
Jeremy: out is impressive
Heather: I do. But for you, Jeremy, um, I do have a glass of, um... I, I actually, I busted out this special wine. I don't actually know if the... I, I don't think the wine itself is special, but, um, it's a Pinotage from South Africa
Jeremy: Nice
Heather: that I grabbed in the duty-free shop, uh, when my, my partner and I went to South Africa a little over a year ago, um, on a trip that was mostly, mostly revolved around, um, wildlife in Kruger National Park
Jeremy: Okay
Heather: um, anti-apartheid sightseeing.
Um, and which was a great combination,
Jeremy: So
Heather: for
Jeremy: [00:09:00] tourist
Heather: of us. And I, I don't... I mean, as I, as I said, I, I just don't drink a lot of wine, um, but I really liked Pinotage. Um, so I was in charge of navigating the very, very complicated, uh, very overwhelming duty-free shop, um, on our way out of Cape Town, and this is the wine that I grabbed
Jeremy: Excellent. cheers to you, Heather, on your Pinotage, and cheers to you, dear listener, if you are able to enjoy a glass with us today Okay. So Heather, in learning about your story, I read that you were a dedicated evangelical from ages 13 to 23, you deconstructed in seminary. I would love to hear what was that journey like for you?
Heather: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, yes. When I, I grew up in the [00:10:00] church, um, but I, you know, I grew up, like, going to Sunday school and, um, serving as an acolyte, you know, in, in our, in our Methodist church. Um, but my parents sent me to summer Bible camp when I was 13 years old and got the hell very literally scared out of me. Uh, walked the aisle for Jesus.
Or scared into me. Um, walked the aisle for Jesus and became a very fervent and very sanctimonious evangelical. Um, the... So my parents are not evangelical. I escaped the, the kind of worst versions of, uh, that upbringing. Um, but the youth minister at our church was very, very fundamentalist. Um, and I was all in.
Um, and so yes, I was, I was the, the one organizing See You at the Pool, uh, when I was in high school, and breaking every separation of church and state law there was, I'm very, very [00:11:00] sure.
Jeremy: Fun fact on that, on, I, I once broke up with a girlfriend over See You at the Pole
Heather: Uh, that seems like a story that we should hear
Jeremy: I, I didn't attend a See You at the Poll,
Heather: Oh
Jeremy: my faith wasn't legit enough for her and
Heather: Wow. Wow. I mean, I also probably would've made that decision.
Jeremy: I mean, C with the poll, if you guys don't know, was a big deal.
Heather: It was a big deal, yeah
Jeremy: it, that's, that's some street cred for those of us who know. Okay, so
Heather: That's right. That's right.
Jeremy: I like it
Heather: Yep. Um, you know, it's the, like, the street cred that only ex-vangelicals, you know, like
Jeremy: That you wish you didn't know, but if you know,
Heather: #OnlyExVangelicals. Yeah, that's right. Um, and so, uh, so, you know, made my way through, through high school, went to a small conservative, um, college in Georgia, majored in religion. Um, even my conservative religio- religion [00:12:00] professors thought that I was too far to the right. Um, I was arguing with them about the 6,000-year creation, um, or 6,000-year Earth, uh, story, and they were like, "Wow, this is wild."
Um, and, uh, and then ended up going to seminary. And, um, I intended to go into Christian counseling. Um, I had also... I had al- always been kind of interested in that. I also, I believed that women should not be, uh, preachers and teachers, and, and so I had no intention of doing that. Um, and ended up in a place that...
Ended up at Wake Forest Divinity School, which was far more welcoming and inclusive than I knew that it was, or I would not have gone there. Um-
Jeremy: You'd avoided that,
Heather: I, absolutely. But, you know, they gave me a scholarship, and I, you know, went on a visit, and everybody seemed nice, and I didn't ask enough questions, and boy, am I glad that I [00:13:00] didn't.
Um, and, and
Jeremy: ways, Heather
Heather: something. Um, and, and yeah, the, the, you know, the, the, there's many different versions of, of that deconstruction story. Um, but about halfway through a three-year program, my, um, my very rigid fundamentalist theology could not hold up to my lived experience of seeing people who I had been taught were going to hell be extremely kind and very serious about, uh, their faith and, and also very serious about asking questions of the church.
And, you know, some of my classmates, um, had gotten to a place where th- they had ... I was, I was very young. I went straight from college into seminary. Most of my classmates were second career, third career. They actually knew shit. I didn't know shit. Um, they had asked hard questions [00:14:00] before. Like, all of this was new to me.
They were extraordinarily patient as I was asking dumbass questions. Um, and they had already been through a deconstruction and a reconstruction process. Um, and so, you know, I had the benefit of a community of folks who had mostly already gone through that process and, and come out the other side saying, um, "There is still something for me in the church, even if the church doesn't think that it's for me or I'm for it."
Um, and, and so I, I came out the other side of that process agnostic. That's still where I find myself today. Um, but I, I was, I was and continue to be extraordinarily grateful for that community.
Jeremy: Hmm. Okay, so as an agnostic with a lot of history around this, what do you... I'd be curious, what do you think about Jesus these days? How does that all sit with you after all of that experience?
Heather: Yeah. Um, [00:15:00] I mean, Jesus seem- seems great. Uh, I do not need for Jesus to be God. Um, I find it, um Yeah, I just, I just, I find it more likely that, um, people have both made up religion to make meaning out of life and that, that people have ascribed meaning to Jesus, um, than for any of it to be true. Um, and I deconstructed long enough that I have, uh, enough, um, distance from that process to also be able to say, "Look, as long as you're not hurting anyone, I...
Like, it's fine for people to believe whatever they wanna believe about Jesus." Um, it's when people, um, decide to wield that belief to hurt others that, uh [00:16:00] I have no problem with Jesus. I do have a problem with what people do in Jesus's name
Jeremy: Mm. That's an, I, give you a cheers to that. I, I don't have a problem with Jesus either, but I have lots of
Heather: Yeah. Yeah, I mean it-
Jeremy: follower, to people who use Jesus for all sorts of things, as most listeners to this podcast are, like, nodding their heads
Heather: Yeah. Yeah, for sure
Jeremy: So what's interesting about your journey into your work today is you interact with a lot of people who probably do follow Jesus or are deconstructing or have deconstructed or, you know, some point in that journey. mentioned that you've done more than 100 one-on-ones with ex-vangelicals, so people who were in this and then they've left it, and that's kind of how they would place themselves. I'm curious, across all of those conversations you've had, what reason for leaving [00:17:00] came up more than you had expected, and
Heather: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
Jeremy: of the interesting findings in those conversations?
Heather: Yeah. Um, well, I started tho- I started those conversations about a year and a half ago, um, when I first started thinking about this project. I got really curious about, um, ex-evangelicals actually when I went back to, um, uh, my divinity school reunion, and I was kind of, like, back in the same place where I had deconstructed, literally the, the physical place.
Um, and I deconstructed long enough, I'm... or I'm old enough, I guess both are true, uh, that when I deconstructed, like, the internet existed, but social media didn't exist. And so I had some very limited access to information, but no visibility into other people's experience, which is the beauty of social media despite the horror of, of most of it.
Um, and so when I went back, uh, to Wake for that reunion, started getting curious about [00:18:00] who else has been through this process. I was hearing other classmates of mine say, you know, like, "I've grown and shifted," or, you know, "I've deconstructed or reconstructed," and found this whole world that had, that existed when I was going through it, but I didn't know that was happening.
Um, and in the last, you know, 10, 15, 20 years has grown exponentially. And so I started getting really curious about the presence of ex-evangelicals, the experience of ex-evangelicals, and because I'm a nerd, the number of ex-evangelicals. Um, and so, and, you know, because I'm a nerd, I started looking into data and research and found PRRI's number of, um, 6% of American adults, which if you do the math, is about 15 million, conservatively 15 million people.
Um, my guess would be over the last year and a half, that number has grown more. Um, and so, you know, as someone who after I deconstructed, found my way [00:19:00] into organizing, which as a former evangelical was like, "Oh, yes, this makes a ton... I've already done this. I've been trained
Jeremy: you at the
Heather: how to organize." See you at the poll.
Um, I, I know how to... You know, I learned how to, I, I learned what phone trees were doing anti-abortion organizing at my church. Um, and, you know, so as an organizer, it was like that's a ton of people, and I'm curious whether those folks have found their way into, you know, progressive or more liberatory, um, communities or structures or, or, or whatever, um, or if folks just deconstructed and kind of went into the woodwork.
And so as I started to just explore that, that reality or, or that experience, I was finding a lot of folks deconstructed and went into the woodwork. Um, and m- so many of those stories, to finally get around to answering your question, um, so many of those stories revolved [00:20:00] around the guilt and shame of deconstructing Uh, the guilt and shame of, um, I was fundamentally wrong about not just something, like my whole worldview.
And how do I trust myself again? How do other people trust me again? Um, how do I, uh, how do I make up for harm that I caused?
Jeremy: more self-imposed guilt and shame, not what they're getting from the community?
Heather: for sure. Um, and so, so many ex-evangelicals were so racked by the guilt and shame, and without, without, like, in-person, in real life community to process that with, who understand how that feels, folks are just kind of... It was, it was kind of arrested development. You [00:21:00] know, folks were just sort of staying there, sticking there.
Um, and so I, I saw an opportunity to create a space to help people actually reconnect with community that so many of us either lose when we leave evangelicalism or our community leaves us when we decide to start asking questions. Um, so to help people reconnect, but also to help folks just, like, give people ways to work through that.
Some people are able... you know, have the, the, the means to be able to go through therapy or to access a religious trauma specialist in order to do that. But most folks don't have access to a community of other people who have deconstructed to kind of process through, you know, how do I deal with the guilt and shame?
How do I make amends? How do I reconcile with people I've hurt? What responsibility do I bear? How do I then use what I know about these churches and, and this world [00:22:00] to do something different, to create a different reality? Um, and so that's, that's kind of what the project is, is oriented around.
Jeremy: You know, there's so many times I talk to pastors who are like me, who we've come from a more conservative tradition. We have deconstructed that. We still hold onto Jesus, but now we're, we're doing it a very different way, sometimes borderline opposite way uh, to the way we did it when we were younger, and that guilt and shame that you're talking about is so prevalent when...
You know, I think back to sermons I gave.
Heather: Mhm
Jeremy: back to advice I gave to people, pastoral counseling I did, and I believed it, you know, at the time. It made sense to me at the time, and this version of me looks back on that and just cringes.
Heather: Sure
Jeremy: you know, I wish I could go back to every single one of those people and say, "Hey, I, I was way off.
I was way wrong. It's not that way." And that is, that is one of the unspoken, often, [00:23:00] uh, downsides of the deconstruction journey, is that you are forced to face some of your own participation in this. And again, a lot of it is not, by choice. We were raised in this. We were, you know, led that direction. we played a role in it, and we
Heather: That's right
Jeremy: it.
And so before you can ever get to the work that you're doing, you have to face this conversation you're talking about. And I love that you're making room for that because that is... that's hard work
Heather: It's hard work and, um, there's no way to shortcut it either, you know? Um, there is something... You know, there's a reason why, uh, you know, countries like South Africa. I mean, part of the reason why I wanted to go to South Africa is because I wanted to understand how did South Africa go through, and not that they're in a, like, in a perfect place right now, but I wanted to understand the truth, reconciliation, and reparations [00:24:00] process that, and I should say mostly just truth and reconciliation.
There hasn't really been a reparations process. But what did that, what did that entail, and what can we learn from it? At some point, hope- best case scenario, the US at some point goes through a truth, reconciliation, and reparation process. Best case scenario. There are a lot of worst case scenarios. But I wanted to understand for those of us who have had to reckon with causing harm, small harm or big harm, um, how do we model that?
How do we explore what that looks and feels like? How do we, uh, create more of a permission structure for it, um, individually so that structurally, systemically, um, there's more of a, a cultural opening or awareness to what it looks like to take responsibility for harm?
Jeremy: Hmm. Now it seems like you were a progressive organizer [00:25:00] before you found the word exvangelical and then later built Project 2112 it. Would you say you went looking for a constituency or did this one find you?
Heather: I think both. Um, before I, before I was working on this project, I was at a faith-based organization, progressive faith-based organization. So I was really trying to figure out how do we move, how do we move current people of faith? There's so many people in the country, in, in this country who identify as people of faith in some form or fashion.
And what I was finding in the progressive movement was, um, a reticence at best or avoidance at worst of talking about it. So we're just all gonna pretend like this isn't a thing for 70% of the country who identify as people of faith, [00:26:00] um, and we're not gonna bring it into our organizing, we're not going to, um, have conversations about meaning or, um, you know, we're just gonna kind of like, this is a thing that happens on Saturdays and Sundays, and then we're gonna come over here and organize.
And so I wanted to try to figure it out. And man, then the 2024 election happened, and even more people of faith voted for Trump than in 2016 and 2020. And I was like, "This is not, this is not it." Like things are... The-- We have got to do something really, really fundamentally different. Um, at the same time, I was kind of having this, you know, reckoning, uh, or exploration, I guess, um, internally, uh, with the world of deconstruction and, and ex-evangelicals, and those two things happened at the same time.
And so I was getting curious about the constituency at the same time that I was trying to make meaning out of what I was seeing politically, um, and felt like, [00:27:00] man, we gotta be talking to people who have been through a deconstruction process if we want our politics to look different
Jeremy: Right. And a lot of what you talk about is not just the deconstruction. You don't just stop, stop there. You know, that's the, the whole part of it. You talk about reconstruction, I'm curious 'cause like when I use that word, I tend to mean rebuilding of faith, and I often talk about I help people rebuild their faith when it breaks, and so we're gonna put that back together.
Heather: Hmm.
Jeremy: your model, is reconstruction the organizing itself, or is it something else? What are you wanting people to reconstruct into?
Heather: Yeah. Um, theologically, I don't care. Uh, and I say that, I say that with a lot of love. Like
Jeremy: I love, I love just the, the bluntness of that
Heather: The, like theologically, do whatever you wanna do. Um, and I, and I say that with a lot of care. Like, I do want folks to find, um, a [00:28:00] way to make meaning out of life. Sometimes that is reconstructing into a faith, sometimes it's no faith, sometimes it's a different faith than the one that you, that you grew up inside of.
Um- I do very much care about folks reconstructing into something meaningful, um, a, a way to, whether it's, um, investing in a community or taking action or... I do very much care about folks finding a way to make meaning out of their past experience and, um, to make meaning out of what we're seeing right now.
Um, theologically, I'm agnostic. Sometimes I kind of flirt with the, the, the label of humanist. Um, theologically, I believe in community. I don't know how I feel about God. I deeply believe in community. And so my [00:29:00] hope is that at the very least, folks can reconstruct into believing that they can trust people, believing that we can write a different future, believing that there's, um, uh, a role for us to play in, in making that different future.
Um, but man, it's, I mean, as you said, it's really, really hard to, to convince folks who do not trust organizations, uh, to, to trust an organization, um, in order to organize together, and, and also to trust other people. I mean, a lot of folks, depending on what kind of, you know, anywhere from hurt to harm to trauma to abuse you experienced, there are a lot of reasons for people not to trust anyone.
Um, and so we're really, we're trying to create a space where folks can rebuild that, um, both in other people and themselves, uh, and then find ways to take action together. Uh, one of, one of the early one-on-ones I had, [00:30:00] um, was, uh, a woman who grew up in rural Maine, super fundamentalist, like ra- bred to be a trad wife.
Um, she's now very queer and doing rural organizing, which I love. Um, and she told me in, in our one-on-one, because she's from a small town, she said, "Look, Heather, if you build this right, then you're going to have people in the, in community together who have harmed each other or one of them harmed the other one in their evangelical experience.
Um, don't avoid that," right? Like, that is, that is going to happen. Um, but you have to be prepared for it, and you have to create the community and the culture and the norms and, and the processes to assume that's going to happen because so many people across this country have harmed each other. Our hope is that many of those 15 million find their way to, to deconstruction and then [00:31:00] find their way to reconstructing in this community.
Um, we have to be ready for that to happen. And that was a real sobering, like,
Jeremy: Ja
Heather: oh shit, yeah, that's, yep, that's a thing that's gonna happen
Jeremy: Okay, so I wanna tease this tension out a little bit more, because I would guess you would attract a lot of people who deconstructing because the church culture they were a part of got too involved in politics,
Heather: Hmm.
Jeremy: they watched that go, they went, "This is, this is really bad." But then you're essentially inviting them into a different political movement. what would you say to the listener who hears that as the same instrument that's just going a different direction?
Heather: Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, some days that's true. Um, I think we are not, we're not doing partisan work. Um, so I think that's, that's a difference, is that we're not aligning with a [00:32:00] political party or with political figures or with, or with, um, a partisan ideology. Um, we are aligning with a different vision of, of the future.
Um, we are aligning with a vision of a future. Um, I think there, there's a lot of nihilism within Christian nationalism right now. Um, not right now, always. It's part, it's a, it's a feature, not a bug. Um, and so we are trying to counter that nihilism, uh, with some hope and w- and with some empathy. Um, so yeah, sometimes it is, um, using those tools, uh, to write a different, a, a different chapter, a different future.
Um, it's also a really different culture. So we're really trying to build something that, um, a culture that is more open, that is more transparent, that, um, doesn't, isn't, isn't trying to be right all the time, is trying to build power with, not power, power over. [00:33:00] Um, and so my hope is that folks will experience something very different, um, than what they experienced previously, um, even if we're using some of the same organizing tools.
Jeremy: That's good.
Heather: The other, sorry, the, the other thing I'll, I just wanna say on that is the other thing I think is really important is that, again, I, I said earlier, like, a lot of ex-Evangelicals deconstruct and then kind of go into the woodwork. What we're hoping is that this project is an offering for ways for folks to actually take responsibility for, um, for, for creating something different.
Um, so it's not, it's not a passive, you know, um, I deconstructed and now there's nothing I can do. There is an invitation for folks to take responsibility to say, um, "Look, you actually have, uh, both a decoder ring, um, for how this whole system works, um, and you have some [00:34:00] superpowers." Um, you know, the, the right is, um, demonizing and, and painting as sinful the idea of curiosity and empathy.
We're, we're actually, like, actively inviting people into curiosity and empathy. Um, and my hope is that folks will find something meaningful in that, that, that is both, um, hel- helps folk takes, folks take responsibility for harm they've caused, and also healing, uh, for the harm that they've experienced.
Jeremy: I think that's a huge piece that you're offering that is often not involved in a lot of these conversations, which is here's something you can do. A lot of this journey, anyone who goes through a deconstruction process, there's, there's a lot of wounds to that. There's a lot of emotional pain and baggage that comes up with that.
Heather: Yeah
Jeremy: idea of giving that person, you know, deploying them toward a better future, I, I can totally see why that resonates, you know, with so many people. Like, you're giving me a chance to [00:35:00] do something with that. How do you also, in the, in the midst of deploying all these people and like, here's your job, now you can do something, how do you also just make space for like people who are wounded and are like, "I just have questions right now, and I'm not sure how to make sense of them, and I'm not sure what I think about Jesus.
I'm not
Heather: Mm-hmm
Jeremy: what I think about the church." I'm, you know... How do you just make space for that in the midst of, but here's what we're gonna go do? You know what I mean? Like I can see it being also tricky for you in a different way than it is tricky for a lot of other conversations like this.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah, uh, you know, we're, we're trying to do three things. We're trying to build community among ex-evangelicals, we're trying to visibilize, um, our experiences and stories, and we're trying to organize to disrupt and dismantle Christian nationalism. I am biased toward organizing. Like, the project is biased toward organizing, but that doesn't mean that we skip over the other two parts.
It doesn't mean that we skip over community. I think the only impactful, [00:36:00] effective organizing happens in community. It happens when people can build trust together. So, you know, yes, we're trying to move people toward organizing because there are a lot of outlets for folks to do book clubs or to listen to podcasts or, um, to sort of like be in their heads about that process.
For folks who grew up in this kind of odd combination of deeply embodied in the style of worship we all came through, and also deeply disembodied when it came to anything else, right? Like, we are actually trying to move people into embodied, like, taking action. Um, and you actually have to, like, build trust with people in order to do that effectively or, or to really have impact.
So, you know, yes, we're organizing campaigns, and we're moving people into action, but we're also... You know, I was just in Dallas and Nashville last weekend for, [00:37:00] um, uh, for ex-evangelical events there. And in Nashville... or, uh, in, in Dallas, we did a crafting night where folks brought old evangelical books, and we did blackout poetry and cut things up and made them new, and it was awesome.
Jeremy: Just
Heather: Um,
Jeremy: out whole pages, just the whole page
Heather: there was a lot blacked out.
Jeremy: So many markers were required
Heather: tons of markers.
Jeremy: I love that
Heather: so, you know, we're, we're doing things like that. In Nashville, we did a, an evangelical culture trivia night where we all kind of got to, you know, poke a little fun at the culture that we came out of. Um, and so we're trying to do things like that where folks can just sort of like exhale a little bit and just, like, not, not as, like, uptight about this experience, but just like, "Yeah, we're g- we're gonna do a trivia night with a category called How Rich is Your Pastor?"
[00:38:00] And just like, "Let's, let's go," you know? So we're gonna experiment with things like that, and then we're ex- gonna experiment with campaigns, and, you know, we're gonna figure it out together on the way.
Jeremy: You know, I just gotta tell you, I know you're, you've left the Jesus camp officially. However, Heather, as I'm listening to you, so much of what you're describing is what I would hope for the body of Christ, right? That we literally, like the language you're using, like we embody something. Like this is the goal I think of, of Christianity a- at its finest, of what it can be, is when we are the physical hands and feet of Jesus.
We are the representation of Jesus to the real world. Not in ideas in our head, but as we literally manifest it in our presence. And so I love that you're doing this, we'll say maybe a parallel track, I don't know if you're okay with that. But you're, you're essentially doing a lot of the s- same work or similar work, and yet you're doing it, you know, in a way that it, it [00:39:00] might... You know, for someone listening to this, they may go, "Hey, I'm not ready for the church stuff anymore, but this, this I could do. You know, this sounds good." And I, I've got people even in my online community that, you know, love the work that I do and like will listen to my sermons, but they're very clear with me, "I'll never go back to a church." You know? And it's like, cool. Like whatever that journey looks like for you, whatever those boundaries need to be for you, like it's great. I just think it's cool that we're sitting here having a conversation and there's so many areas of overlap, even though we can also say, "Hey, this, this and this might be different."
Heather: Well, look, that's not accidental. Exvangelicals are almost exactly evenly split. It's literally 49, 51%, according to PRI's data, between folks who still identify as Christian and, and folks who don't. And so we, we are also trying to create space where both of those halves of our community can find something meaningful, can find each other.
Um, [00:40:00] we're really clear that it's a non-proselytizing space. And also, if somebody's looking for a church and you go somewhere that makes, might make sense for them, like, cool, that's fine. That's gonna work, hopefully, for most of us. For some folks, you know, some folks have emailed me and said, "If there are Christians at this event, I just can't do it."
And I've been like, "I, I get it. I get it. You know, depending on what you experienced, like, that totally makes sense. I hope at some point you've experienced enough healing that you can be in a room with folks who, um, are supposed to be espousing, uh, these values that, that you just talked through." But for some folks, that's j- that's not gonna work.
So, you know, we're trying to create a space where as many people as possible, as many of those 15 million as possible can, can find a home, can, can find a community. Um, and for some [00:41:00] folks, that's gonna be in addition to a church community, and for some folks, there's, there's just no way they're gonna step back into a church.
Jeremy: It's, it's interesting to me, you know, I'll post a clip of me teaching somewhere on a weekend, and I'll get reactions from people that will jump on me. They didn't watch the clip or listen to it, but they see a guy preaching on a stage, and they assume I'm one of them, right? And so they'll start bashing, "Oh, you believe X, Y, and Z."
And then I'll usually engage in the conversation with these people 'cause I'm like, "Oh, I don't believe any of those things. I believe this." And then they're immediately like, "What are you?" Like what-- We have no box to put this in, right? And so I love that we are creating more and more of these options because I think we need to have a bigger imagination of what it looks like to exist in this space.
And with so many journeys and so many, uh, hurts and so many different, you know, expressions of that, it-- there is no one size fits all for any of this. And, [00:42:00] you know, even like you're saying, even an ex-vangelical isn't a thing.
Heather: That's right
Jeremy: of things. And I love that. I love that we're just seeing more and more options for people who are having these conversations say, "Here's all the different ways that you can pursue this, and here's," you know, uh, "You have a whole bunch of options. If that one makes sense for you, if that one makes sense for you," and, you know, that, especially before the internet, but, like, that was something that, you know, 20, 30 years ago you would not have been able to find or even be aware of.
Heather: That's right. Yeah, and we, you know, we also have people joining the community who are ex-Mormon or ex-Jehovah's Witness or ex-Orthodox who haven't had exactly the same experience, um, but who do understand what it's like to leave a really intensive, insular community, um, and who are looking to organize. Uh, and so I, I think that, you know, there's, there's the [00:43:00] 15 million number, and then there-- that number is growing, continuing to grow.
Um, and there are folks in addition to that 15 million who are s- some of them looking for community but, but really looking to, like, how, what do I do with this experience? How do I, how do I make sense of it? How do I make meaning of it? How do I take action and try to do something else? I-- there are a lot of folks in our community who left a very insular, high-control religious community and did so, um, at great ex- at great expense to themselves but also left siblings behind.
And that for f- for a lot of our folks, there is a really deep... It's not just, "I want something better for the world." It's, "I have a younger sister," or, "I have a younger brother," or, "I have a younger cousin who I know is, you know, still at risk, um, inside [00:44:00] this community, and I want something better for them." Um, so there, there i- there are real stakes in addition to, you know, will this be a Christian nationalist country or not?
Um, there are really personal stakes for folks.
Jeremy: I, I just had a, a conversation yesterday with a friend of mine in the LGBTQ+ community, and she was telling me that she has started to meet some progressive Mormons
Heather: Yep
Jeremy: leaning in and were really embracing her, and that blew my mind. Like, I had... I was like, And she's like, "Yeah." She's like, "There, there are a few of them.
They're really challenging this and rethinking this." And I don't... Like, that was, like, so shocking to me, but also really cool. Like, okay, I never thought I'd be locking arms with Mormons to do this work,
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy: that would be cool, you know? And so again, I love that, that picture of you just kind of like, "We're gonna unite whoever's interested in this."
And you might find yourself working [00:45:00] alongside all sorts of people that you never would've envisioned. I think it's... that's pretty rad.
Heather: I mean, look, there, there are more, there are 15 million ex-evangelicals across the country. There are... And that's a conservative number. There are 12 million Southern Baptists, and that's a real liberal number because they will not take you off the rolls. I've had people tell me, like, "I have called every body within the Southern Baptist Convention.
They will not take me..." Even if you die, they will not take you off. "You're ours."
Jeremy: that's awesome
Heather: but the different, you know, they're organized and we're not, and the more organized we can be, the more f- folks who we can link arms with, the more folks who, uh, we can, you know, create this bigger we. Th- there are, there are so many more people across the US, um, who reject Christian nationalism than who adhere to it.
There, there is an alarming number of people who adhere to it, [00:46:00] but there's so many more of us than them, um, but we, we gotta be better organized
Jeremy: I know just the person who loves organizing
Heather: See you at the pole, Jeremy.
Jeremy: My ex-girlfriend would be so proud of you right now. She's bringing me back into line all these years later. it's, it's full circle. All right, Heather, I want to ask you some questions that I love to ask each guest, and
Heather: Okay
Jeremy: compare your answers and see how you would answer these. Couple wine questions for you.
You're not a wine drinker, so I don't know if you're gonna have an answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it anyways.
Heather: Okay
Jeremy: Have you ever had an amazing glass of wine? Where if I said, "Hey," can you have a memory or a moment where you're like, "That was really good"? And if you even have one, can you think of something, where you were, who you were with, what you were doing, what was the bottle?
Anything. I know you're a [00:47:00] bourbon, and you know, that's not really your thing, but I want a wine story if you've got one
Heather: Man, I should have looked this up, uh, before, before this conversation. Yeah, so when my partner and I were in South Africa, um, we rented a car and drove into, like, wine country, um, in, in South Africa, which was beautiful. And we really... Yeah. Um, we did a lot of research ahead of time because, uh, we really wanted to find a Black-owned vineyard, which is very difficult to do in South Africa.
Um, everything is owned by, um, white, uh, winemakers. But we found, uh, this one Black-owned brewery, or not brewery, a vineyard. Um, and the guy who owned it, um, he, his mom had worked in the vineyard for... So it had existed for a long time and had been white-owned. Um, [00:48:00] his mom worked in the vineyard. Um, the guy who owned, white guy who owned it, um, decided he wanted to sell it, and he sold it to, uh, this, uh, Black winemaker.
And it was just the most beautiful setup. They had an out, like outdoor patio where you, just like you were, you were sort of like in this valley, um, where you could just... It, it was gorgeous. It was a beautiful day, gorgeous. He came out and talked to folks, uh, who were visiting, and it was a, a lovely, lovely afternoon.
Jeremy: That's a great story.
Heather: Yeah. Could not tell you the name of the vineyard,
Jeremy: okay.
Heather: but yeah.
Jeremy: I love that. That's a great story. Okay, I want you to think back to your evangelical days for this next one.
Heather: Okay
Jeremy: of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you, and which member would you not trust, and why?
Heather: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:49:00] Um
The not trust is easy, and I know that other people say this all the time on your podcast, but the not trust is Paul 100%. Even though he deconstructed and reconstructed D-
Jeremy: He's so misunderstood
Heather: I have really tried to extend grace to this man. Uh,
Jeremy: do it, huh?
Heather: can't do it. Can't do it. I know people who love Paul. I was the, I was the researcher for my homiletics professor at, uh, at Wake, who wrote a whole book about Paul. Still can't, can't get down with him. Uh, so that's, that's an easy one. Um, you know, the, the one, the, the character who I am most fascinated by, um, at least in the New Testament, I don't know about, about the First Testament, um, is the Ethiopian eunuch.[00:50:00]
And I think that I would, I would probably trust him to pick something out for me
Jeremy: That is a new answer on the podcast that has
Heather: Deep cut.
Jeremy: offered.
Heather: Deep cut.
Jeremy: Wow, the Ethiopian eunuch, ladies and gentlemen. I like it.
Heather: Yeah.
Jeremy: That is
Heather: Yeah
Jeremy: has not ever been said, Heather, and so kudos to
Heather: Trying, trying to bring some new, trying to bring some new content, Jeremy.
Jeremy: Paul, Paul gets said a lot. There's,
Heather: I know. I know.
Jeremy: three names that come up a lot on the second part, but the Ethiopian eunuch, that's good. what's something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Heather: Yeah. Man, um, I really went hard on purity culture.
Jeremy: Really?
Heather: I re- I was, I was deep in it
Jeremy: way you [00:51:00] described your younger days
Heather: Elizabeth Elliot, Joshua Harris, uh, like whole nine yards, had a purity ring. Very, very convinced of purity culture. Uh, and man, is that bullshit
Jeremy: Many of
Heather: Top, top to bottom, side to side, just really, really
Jeremy: I, I even dunked on James Dobson in my sermon on Sunday. Just threw shade at him from the pulpit. All focused on the family, just all of it. Torch it all.
Heather: Yep. Yep. Yep. For sure
Jeremy: Wow, purity culture. Yeah, that's a... Many of us are spending decades of our lives back the layers of that onion and all of the rotten inner
Heather: It, it doesn't... Look, I deconstructed 25 years ago and that shit does not stop.
Jeremy: Oh, yeah. That, that one'll, that one'll haunt you for a while. [00:52:00] Interestingly, one of the conversations a lot of people, a lot of Christians in this space have is when we're raising our kids very differently than we were raised, you know, what do we
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy: Do we bring our kids to church? Do we not? You know, and, and we, we came from church, and we turned out the way we did, and so there's this debate, this ongoing debate. And for a while, I was in the middle of the debate too, where I was like, "Yeah, I could see both sides." I've moved. I'm not in... I'm not in the middle anymore. I'm firmly a do not send them to what you went through. 'Cause I'm
Heather: ą®‰ą®®ąÆ¨
Jeremy: are literally spending decades of our lives untangling this, and
Heather: That's right.
Jeremy: ones.
Like, we're the
Heather: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy: out, that figured
Heather: That's right
Jeremy: Many people don't. You know, many people are just scarred by this the rest of their lives. And so, yeah, I tell people, like, "Hey, don't give your kids the same experiences you had and hope that they make it through as well. Just save them from all that.
Like, skip over that part." And yeah, they are gonna have different experience than you. It's like I grew up in the pews. My kids are not the same way, you know? And so it is [00:53:00] a little unnerving at times, but the purity culture alone is the only argument you need as to why that's worth it
Heather: I will say, I will say on that, I know you're, I know you have more questions, but I will say on that, a friend of mine grew up with, grew up sort of we, we... I would've said in my evangelical days, unchurched. Um, and she, she has two kids now. She really struggles with that because she grew up without having community around her, without having people who could care for their family when they went through some really rough moments.
Um, grew up without the reference points, uh, like cultural, historical, uh, th- theological reference points. And she, sh- she is navigating kind of trying to figure out, how do I take, how do I give my kids the best of it without [00:54:00] giving, also giving them the worst of it? Um, and man, it is so much work, uh, because you do want your kids to have the community and not kind of miss out on those pieces.
But man, you get, you have one rogue Sunday school teacher and you gotta really be vigilant to, to stay on top of what they're learning.
Jeremy: So my kids often, if it's local, they'll go with me if I'm speaking somewhere, and sometimes I get invited into evangelical spaces and, and so, you know, they'll go to them. And I'll, I'll never forget, there's one time my daughter, uh, she's, she's 14 now, and she was in the student program in, at this church.
And get in the car afterward and I'm like, "Hey, how was, you know, how was Sunday school, guys?" And I, again, I had preached in the services that morning. She's like, "Dad, you will never believe this." And I was like, "Oh, wow. Yeah, give it to me." Like, "What?"
Heather: Can't wait
Jeremy: she goes, "They said that if you don't believe in Jesus, you're going to hell." [00:55:00] like, "Can you believe that?" like, to her, it was the craziest thing she'd ever... Like, people think that you're gonna go to... You know, like, she just, I mean, like, she couldn't wait to come home and tell me that kind of
Heather: Yeah
Jeremy: was like, " I love that that's your reaction to that,"
Heather: That's right.
Jeremy: seen something else, you know?
She's
Heather: Mm-hmm
Jeremy: that sounds nothing like Jesus." But yeah, I mean, it's, it, it is, uh, a little, little dangerous to send your kids to that environment and, you know, you're gonna get all sorts of theology thrown at you that
Heather: Yeah
Jeremy: You know, it's funny to me, we, I was raised be afraid of the indoctrination of the LGBTQ, you know, agenda, and I'm like, the church agenda scares me the most.
Like, we are the scariest agenda by
Heather: That's right. Way more damage
Jeremy: But it's like, no, no, no, that's fine. You know, it's like, no, that's what you should be cautious with your kids.
Heather: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy: But yes,
Heather: right.
Jeremy: a lot there. Uh, okay, what's something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning or you're thinking [00:56:00] about?
Heather: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, we just hosted a webinar last week with, uh, Brad Onishi from Straight White American Jesus, who I love and I listen to, to the podcast all the time. Um, we hosted a webinar with him about his new book, American Caesar, which I can't recommend highly enough. I read it in two days. It was so good.
It is blowing my mind how Evangelical Protestants, reactionary radical Catholics, and tech oligarchs are finding common cau- like, finding each other. There's something, I, I talked earlier about kind of the nihilism of Christian nationalism. I think the Venn diagram i- like, nihilism is, like, in the middle of it.
Um, but I, I have really struggled, as a former evangelical, I have really [00:57:00] struggled to figure out how did tech, how are we having, how are these people in the same room together? They fundamentally have different visions of the future, um, but the degree to which nihilism is, is bringing them all together.
J.D. Vance said on a podcast recently, um, something to the effect of, uh, you know, "I, I don't know if, if we're, we're bringing about the end of the world, but, you know, if we are, so be it." Um, and I was just like, "What are we, what are we even talking about?" So I think that I've, like, understood that intellectually in some ways, but I think I'm, I'm learning it in a, like, deeper, in a deeper sense, and Brad's book was so helpful in kind of peeling back the layers and helping me figure out, like, there's this really guttural, um, emotional nihilism, [00:58:00] um, that, wow, I'm j- I'm just relearning.
Jeremy: That's awesome. Sounds like a great book. All right,
Heather: It's, it's devastating. It's devastating just to...
Jeremy: most good books are. Before we wrap up this conversation, we've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything you wanna add that I have not asked you about? But it wouldn't be right to close this out unless you got this in
Heather: Um
Uh, I don't think there's anything that I would add. I, I really do, whether, whether folks find us or find something else, um, I, I just really implore folks to find some way to get in your body to take some kind of action. Maybe that's heading to our website and finding meetings or calls or joining a list or, you know, something, uh, there.
But what... You know, maybe that's, um, [00:59:00] you know, doing ice watch in your community. May- maybe that's making sure that folks who are getting kicked off of food stamps have something to eat. Um, but I, you know, I know this is not, uh, probably your instructions to folks, but go touch grass, stop listening to things.
Like, just fucking get outside and, and do something
Jeremy: I could endorse that. I like that. That's good. All right, Heather, if someone's listening to this, they're like, "Hey, I love it. on board. Where do I go? What, where do I find this? How do I get involved?"
Heather: Yeah. Head to our website, um, project2112.org. Uh, the 2112 incidentally is not a year. It is also not a Rush album resi- uh, reference, which I learned is a thing. Uh, growing up evangelical, I did not know about Rush, much less their album [01:00:00] titles. Um, but it is a reference to Matthew 21:12, uh, where Jesus, uh, goes in the temple, sees poor people being taken advantage of by religious elites, and flips over all of the tables.
That is the vibe that we are going for, um, and would really highly encourage folks to sign up for the email list. That's, that's where you'll find out about community calls that we do once a month, organizing training calls that we do once a month, webinars, in-person meetings. Um, we'll let you know when something's happening.
Jeremy: You know, Heather, for an agnostic, you picked a Jesus image for your name.
Heather: I did
Jeremy: I'm just saying
Heather: You know, I'm, I'm not ceding Jesus whether I'm Christian or not. I will, will not cede that ground.
Jeremy: pretty good. I have a,
Heather: It's pretty good
Jeremy: I think, uh, I think everyone should be a fan
Heather: Yeah. It that
Jeremy: not the Christian nationalist Jesus
Heather: Look, that kid's got a bright future[01:01:00]
Jeremy: Well, Heather, I love the work that you're doing, and this conversation has been a delight. I'm excited for more people to hear about this, to be aware of this, to get involved in this. I think a lot of our listeners are probably gonna be like, "This sounds rad. I wanna go check it out." So thanks for all the work that you're doing.
Thanks for the space you're making for so many people on this journey, and thanks for spending a lovely afternoon with us on the podcast
Heather: Absolutely. I, look, my, the glass is empty. Uh, you got me to open a bottle of wine that has been sitting on the top of the fridge getting dusty, uh, for over a year. So thank you, Jeremy
Jeremy: Cheers to you. Well, everybody, I hope you loved this episode as much as I did, and go get involved. Go do something, like Heather said. And as you touch grass, make sure you check out Project 2112, right? I gotta make sure I have the number right. 2112, and, uh, [01:02:00] and see the amazing work they're doing. We'll see you next Wednesday on Cabernet and Pray
