Reflections of a Recovered Evangelical (with Daniel Henderson) | Ep. 92
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Jeremy: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray,
today, we have a conversation with a guy named Daniel Henderson, and this one is going to break the box, if you will, that you might have around faith about what it means to follow Jesus, how you follow Jesus.
This is someone who's following Jesus outside of evangelicalism, and he writes a lot about it. This is his story. He is a former forty-year evangelical, so he's, he's done the time. He taught in Christian schools. He was a good Christian nationalist for a season. We get into that. And he walked away from all of it in two thousand and six.
He has since been on a journey to existential well-being and spiritual freedom ever since then. He was a teacher and an educator for forty years. Now he is retired, and writing is the thing he focuses on these days. He publishes a twice-weekly Substack column [00:01:00] called Things We Don't Talk About Like Politics and Religion which is a great...
That's a great title. But I love the imagination that you're gonna get from this episode. You're probably not gonna have a way to make sense of Daniel f-for a little bit as we, as you listen to his story, and yet just be open to it. He's got a really intriguing way of what it means to be fully human and what it means to follow Jesus, even though it probably looks very different than what you've seen elsewhere.
This episode is called Reflections of a Recovered Evangelical
I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot.
Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina [00:02:00] or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast, and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you [00:03:00] explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know.
I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology. So I, oh- I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is... But here we are.
Queer we are. Here we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. I'm an emotional guy. Paired with a half a glass of wine, I'm beet red, sweating, and about to cry here. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guests drink wine.
It makes sense now. Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage here to unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice. Cabernet and pray, [00:04:00] yeah.
Jeremy: Well, my guest today has a similar resume to mine. He was a teacher who passed along a version of faith that he no longer believes. I preached one. We took different doors out of the same building, and now it's time for us to compare notes. Daniel, welcome to the podcast
Daniel Henderson: Thanks for having me, Jeremy. I'm looking forward
Jeremy: Well, I think we're in for a fun conversation. Before we get into that, let's talk about our beverages today.
Daniel Henderson: Hey.
Jeremy: I have got
Daniel Henderson: right.
Jeremy: one. This is, uh, I... This is Italian, and I don't know how to say it. Guisti Di Norti or something to that effect. This is a 2020 red blend, primarily Cabernet Sauvignon. And this is a big boy wine I got into today, Daniel, and
Daniel Henderson: one.
Jeremy: I often say,
Daniel Henderson: for a long conversation, aren't you?
Jeremy: well, not just that, it's just, it's...
This is full bodied. This is giving me [00:05:00] everything. So I was taking a few sips of this and I'm like, "Wow, I, I would normally pair this with a piece of meat." You know, a great steak would go great with this. I don't have a great steak. I have already eaten lunch, and we are, we're recording after lunch for me, but I'm getting great notes of the earthy notes, the fruit notes.
For me, I'm getting a lot of strawberry, especially right on the nose, but then also some, like, leather, some vanilla in there as well. But here's the thing I'll tell you, and I'll illustrate this
The tannins on this thing are like where you pucker up afterward. And so if every, you know, dear listener, if you ever you've drank some wine and you have that like you know, feeling in your mouth, you're like, "What is that?" That's the tannins. And this one is bold with the tannins, which is not necessarily the easiest [00:06:00] when you're trying to talk.
So I might have to take a few sips while you're talking. Let me get the tannins out and then, you know, go back to it. But
Daniel Henderson: You, you, you might want a glass of
Jeremy: I m-
Daniel Henderson: too,
Jeremy: might need a, I might need a dual beverage to, to make it through this. But
Daniel Henderson: Well
Jeremy: like to, I like to try to tie in my wines with the topic if, if at all possible, and so I've got a tie-in for you today, Daniel, to what we're about to talk about.
Daniel Henderson: Sounds
Jeremy: So I was reading through reviews on my, my bottle of wine, and Monica Larner said this about this wine. Said, "The DNA of the wine has changed slightly over the years to favor the Cabernet Franc, with an increased percentage over the Merlot, which has fallen from a previous high about 35% to 40% of the blend a decade ago."
So I'm drinking a red blend that is a work in progress, and we're gonna have a conversation today about what faith in progress looks like. [00:07:00] S- see what I did there?
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, it
Jeremy: So
Daniel Henderson: It's
Jeremy: w- this is a blend that keeps changing, and we're gonna talk about faith that keeps changing. So that's my setup for my conversation with you.
Daniel, what are you drinking today?
Daniel Henderson: I'll show you what I've got. So this is one of my favorite Cabernets, I'll put it up here if you can
Jeremy: Yeah, nice
Daniel Henderson: It's called Freakshow.
Jeremy: That's a cool looking label
Daniel Henderson: Uh, well that's one of the things that, that drew me to it originally was the label. So it is a very, uh, what I would call bold and s- but smooth Cabernet, and that's kind of what I look for in a, in a, a red wine like a Cabernet is I want it to be bold but I, I don't want it to be bitter. You know
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: And so this is a really good wine. And I'll tell you where I found it originally. We have a little Italian restaurant here in the town where I live, restaurant, and [00:08:00] they have authentic Italian, you know, chef and the food is just fantastic but they know how to pair wine. So same thing you were saying, about a steak.
A steak
Jeremy: Right
Daniel Henderson: with this, with this wine. But uh, yeah, I've got, I've got mine right here and, uh, it's not quite as large as your glass but, uh, you know, cheers
Jeremy: Well, cheers to you and cheers to you, dear listener, if you are able to enjoy a glass with us on today's episode
Daniel Henderson: Yeah. Yeah. Goes down smooth
Jeremy: There we go. All right, Daniel, one of the questions I like to begin with, for people who may not be familiar with your story who are listening, tell us a little bit about recent history for you. We're gonna get into some of the, the earlier versions of your story. But if you were to look at the last 10 years, how would you say that your faith, whatever that means for you these days, how has your faith changed in the last 10 years?
Daniel Henderson: That's a good [00:09:00] question. And, and in fact, that's r- really a good frame for this book, because that's what I intended to try to communicate, uh, through Reflections of a Recovered Evangelical. Um, you know, my first book was Confessions of a Recovering Evangelical several years ago. This one is a little bit more reflective of the past few years, and I think probably since 2016, 2017, that, or up to now is, is, is probably a good fit. and what it re- what it shows, in my thinking, is the farther away I'm getting from my evangelical past, which I left that behind back in 2006, you know, that era. So now I'm looking at almost a 20-year period where haven't been really in the evangelical world. I certainly have been, you know, uh, rethinking and, uh, reformulating my whole belief system. [00:10:00] Uh, and, and so it's in a much more, what I would call mature place than it was, say, back before 2016, you know. and so the, the, the book itself should, I think, uh, reflect that, that, that maturity, or hopefully that maturity, in terms of, know, I'm, I'm not just deconstructing anymore, you know, 'cause I, I, I went through that.
I've done that. But I'm really reformu- I, I'm not even sure I like the word reconstruct, but I'm reformulating most of the beliefs, all of the beliefs really, that I had prior. And so the first half of the book, and, and you probably are gonna get to this, but the first half of the book really about those vestiges of evangelicalism that, uh, have either, you know, faded away. Why have they faded away? Why didn't they serve me anymore? And what are my new thought processes? And, and I frame that first half of the [00:11:00] book around the idea of rewiring my own brain. Uh, because, uh, Jeremy, I was a evangelical f- for 40 years. I mean, it was a long time. And, you don't just, you know, uh, jettison that, get rid of that, and all of a sudden you got a new faith. Uh, it takes time, and, and, and there are some residual, um, thoughts and ideas, or habits might be a better word, uh, in your thinking that need to be dealt with. But anyway, that's to give you the answer. It's, it's a probably a little more refined, uh, place than just deconstructing your faith,
Jeremy: I like that. And, and a lot of people, you know, listening to the podcast, th- they're on all different stages of that, you know? That some, some are, are looking at it thinking, "Maybe I should," you know? Others have begun it, and they're starting to wonder, what does this mean? And, you know, some, some people have been doing it for a while, like you're saying, and have worked through a lot of [00:12:00] these.
And I, I love these kind of conversations where we get to explore the nuances of this from different vantage points. And I wanna, I wanna address something because your work and my work have some interesting parallels and splits as well. You left religion behind, a- at least as I understand it. I wrote a book about the edge of the inside, what it means to stay, but to stay on the edge, not where I used to be.
Do you think, you know, leaving was the healthier move for you, and why? And if so, would you recommend that for everybody? So would you... Would that be your kind of blanket endorsement for everybody to leave evangelicalism?
Daniel Henderson: No. No, I wouldn't say that. I, I would never recommend to any individual what they should or ought to do when it comes to faith. Uh, because one of the things... I'll start with this to, to answer your question One of the things I've kind of come to, to appreciate [00:13:00] is s- e- e- even in leaving evangelicalism behind, ha- being this far away from it now, can look back and find some things in that experience, that 40 years that I was in that culture, that are profitable, still helpful. And a lot of it has to do with understanding community, and what it is and what it isn't. Um, and, and dealing, and at that, i- in that culture, dealing with the big questions. Who is God? Who am I? What is my purpose here? Those are the kinds of existential questions that they don't leave you leave the
Jeremy: Right
Daniel Henderson: But the church, the evangelical church anyway, tried to provide a, a package answer for those kinds of questions. so what I'm grateful for is that at least at one time [00:14:00] I, I dealt with those questions, thought I had the answers, you know. Here it is in the box. It's, there's your answer. And then coming to understand, no, that's not really the answer, and then starting over with those big, huge existential questions.
What is the meaning of my life and my purpose now? So, I think, I, I, I think that, uh, I, I wouldn't recommend ... If somebody is comfortable in their evangelical world at this point, they're not questioning and doubting, the only thing I would say to them is, "If you have questions doubts, don't, don't try to push those away."
It doesn't mean you're gonna leave evangelical church behind, but the doorway to a whole new world of faith comes through those questions. Because you know as well as I do, Jeremy, in the evangelical church you're not supposed to ask a lot of
Jeremy: Yeah. They, [00:15:00] they don't, they don't like that
Daniel Henderson: they don't like it very much at all, and you're not supposed to doubt things. I discovered that once ... And, and they were still there. I mean, even those 40 years, there were always doubts and questions along the way. But I, know, chose to ignore them and stuff it down because I knew it wasn't very, you know, popular to do. But eventually it caught up to me, and I, I, I had to deal with it. Uh, so I would just say to someone who's, who's still in the evangelical church, if it's working for you, hey, great, but ignore the questions. Don't ignore the doubts. They aren't a sin. It is not a sin to, to, to have those doubts and questions. And then just let, you know, follow those doubts and questions, and let it go wherever it goes. And- It may end up somebody will decide, "Yeah, I just can't, uh, s- square the circle anymore. get out of [00:16:00] here." Now, the only, the only, uh, exception to that, Jeremy, that I would say is if someone is in an evangelical space where they are being... where they're suffering some sort of abuse. And you and I both know, in fact, I, I have a whole chapter on that in the new book, on, on evangelical, the, the, the crash of the evangelical church, I call it. Because there is abuse. Sometimes the abuse is emotional, the abuse is physical, sometimes it's mental. But whatever it is, if somebody is suffering in that kind of a, a, a abusive situation, then yeah, I would tell anybody to get out of that kind of situation, whether it's evangelical or a bad marriage or, you know, whatever it might be. But, uh, by and large, I, I, I just, I think everybody has to find their own journey pathway forward. And, um, know, I, I... for me personally, it was, it, it [00:17:00] was a long process. So I didn't actually... I mean, I decided in 2005, 2006, I'm gonna not go back to the evangelical church. but the process of deconstruction took me a while.
I mean, that took a good 10 years to, to think through, what am I deconstructing? What do I no longer believe about this stuff, you know? and then like you said, the more recent, the last few years has been more about, hey, this is, this is really liberating where I'm at now. I mean, I've reached a place where, you know, I'm very, very comfortable in my worldview and faith.
So I don't know if that answers your question, Jeremy, but, but, uh, what I would
Jeremy: So it sounds to me like you have kept the questions and you have swapped out the answers. So you had answers to those questions that you said those answers don't work anymore, but the questions that I was focused on are good questions. And I, I like that because I think that's a good [00:18:00] description of the deconstruction journey, whatever you wanna call it.
The questions don't go away. They follow you . And so you can swap out your answers, but the questions, they'll tag along
Daniel Henderson: Well, the most common answer that I swapped out is, "I don't know."
Jeremy: Ja
Daniel Henderson: So, you know, whereas before if somebody would've said, "Well, what happens after you die?" You know, I would say, "Well, well, you know, John 6, s- you know, 17 says this. This is what's gonna happen when you meet, you know, your maker." You, you had answers for those things. and what I discovered through this process is if... is that frankly, we don't know. I mean, the answer is, "I don't know," to most of these questions. And so It's a process of becoming comfortable with saying, "I don't know," you know? Does God exist? I have a whole chapter on that in the book, and part of [00:19:00] the answer that I've come up with is, well, I really don't know.
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: And I'm okay with that. It's ambi- you know, the whole issue is ambiguous to me. not an atheist. I can't say that, but I'm certainly not a biblical theist. That, that makes as much nonsense in my mind as, as being a complete atheist. So, but the true answer for me is, well, I- I'm not sure, you know? I, I'm not sure.
I'm, I'm still searching. And what I... The other thing I discovered about that, Jeremy, is I believe the journey is the destination.
Jeremy: Mm-hmm.
Daniel Henderson: That's the whole
Jeremy: Yeah.
Daniel Henderson: is to do the journey. Now, if you never take the journey, you never struggle, you never, you never, you know, uh, come to that place of ambivalence and, and accept it just say, "I, I'm not sure and I don't know, but I'm okay with that," you know?
That's a good place to be
Jeremy: That's a very humble response, [00:20:00] Daniel, and I would encourage Christians who are listening to this, you can still follow Jesus and also say, "I don't know" about some of these great questions
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, because, you know, the other thing I, the other thing I discovered and I've written about in the book is that the farther away from the evangelical faith I get, the more relevant the teachings of Jesus have become. And, and it's an irony, isn't it? That I, at least for me, I had to leave the evangelical church to find Jesus, and I did. And, and I would still say, I will- I won't, I don't no longer call myself a Christian. I don't use that, that label. I do, would subscribe to the idea that I'm a follower of Jesus. I love the teachings, and there's something pretty radical in his teachings that I think are important, particularly at an ex- existential level. So going back to the big [00:21:00] questions, you know, why we're here and what we're supposed to be doing as human beings, and how do we help our fellow human beings? Jesus had a whole lot to say about that. So yeah, I, I, uh, you can be a Christian and, uh, you know, s- kind of have those doubts, have those, that ambiguous belief, still follow Jesus.
Isn't like Jesus is going anywhere. He's still there, you
Jeremy: Yeah, I love that. I have a friend who, he's been on the podcast before, he refers to himself as a Pentecostal, uh, atheist. And so, you know, he just kinda mixes these worlds and, you know, and, and, uh, I, I love that and I love, I love your journey. I wanna, I wanna play on the words a little bit that you use here, and we're gonna get back to Jesus, 'cause you have a great quote about that I wanna address.
But before we get into that, you, you've got a few books playing with the same idea of recovery. This one is called Recovered, so there is a, you know, more of a past tense there. But in the preface you say that [00:22:00] recovery in the addiction sense is never complete, and that evangelicalism was addictive for you.
So I'm curious, what was the thing that, that pushed you over that edge where you felt like, "I'm not recovering anymore. I, I passed some line and I'm recovered," in the addiction sense? Where did that, where did that make sense for you?
Daniel Henderson: Well, it, you kind of see it in some of the various chapters where I talk about... I'll give you one example. I have a chapter in there called Endlessly Seeking God's Will. I think that's, or close. I can't remember exactly, but hopelessly, maybe it's Hopelessly Seeking God's Will, something like that. And, and it was that practice back when I was a young evangelical, know, we would get teachings about, well, God has a special plan for your life, and it's just for you, and you gotta find out what that plan is.
And, and I said, "Oh, man, [00:23:00] okay, I gotta find out what this plan is. Where is it?" It's kind of like, you know, how do I find it? And I'd be wringing my hands. Oh man, am I doing God's will today? What if I'm not? What if I miss it? I mean, it was really anxiety ridden to worry about am I in God's, you know, perfect plan? Is he gonna, is he gonna punish me if I don't follow his perfect plan? And you know, that, it, what that does is it takes human agency away from you and puts it somewhere else, but it's more like a hiding game. So I, I end up describing it as a shell game almost, you know, which God's got these shells. Put his, your perfect plan under the shell.
Which one is it? You know, find God's will. And that, getting away from that i- is, is like retraining my brain to realize it's, it's, there is no plan other than what I determine through my own [00:24:00] reason and wisdom And there's no one out there that's got a plan for me. All right? I am the maker of my own plan. So it isn't about finding God's will, it's about connecting with who I really am and answering the big questions about why I'm here. And, and then that, I can develop that plan. But, but transitioning to that, you know, that's... What it means is I've gotta take responsibility for my life, right? And I've g- And if I make a mistake in, you know, living my life, well, I make a mistake, but it's not God's fault, it's not the devil's fault, it's my fault, and all right, I'm gonna fix it.
But so that's one example. Um, think there are so many, uh, the, another one that, that, uh, I wrote about in the early part of the book is about redefining, uh, redemption. And I use [00:25:00] analogy of a movie, the movie of Scrooge. It's a, it's, a, one of the newer ones. And I don't know if you've ever seen it, Jeremy.
It's a British one. uh, what's his name? Oh, shoot, I can't remember his name. Guy who played, uh, Scrooge. But it's a very, very dark movie. I mean, it's actually a movie I wouldn't let kids
Jeremy: Oh, wow
Daniel Henderson: Um, it's, it's really something. But the, the twist in the movie is that in the end, Scrooge actually rejects redemption. He's offered redemption by the spirits, right? They come to him and take him through. And, uh, his friend Marley asks him, "Why would you refuse redemption?" And, and Scrooge's answer is, is, "Because if I were, were to accept redemption, would only be trying to save myself He, and he said, "The only thing I want is to see something good happen for Tim here." [00:26:00] And boom, that was the redemption. The redemption was not for his soul. His, the redemption came when he turned his whole view of life from himself toward the betterment of people around him, people like Tiny Tim. And, and to me, it, it, it brought back so many memories of how, what I ... And the way I describe it in the chapter is how narcissistic redemption is.
It's all about me. It's all about my sin. It's about my redemption. It's about me going to heaven, and it's about me getting saved, and it's about me, me, me, me, me. Even though the evangelical world tried to teach, well, you gotta put God first, others second, and yourself. That's really not how it worked. It was me, me, me. And, and I had to ... So redemption, in the biblical sense, is quite frankly a narcissistic idea. You know, to think, for me to think that God would sacrifice his... First of all, the idea of [00:27:00] sacrifice is kind of, human sacrifice, is kind of a, um, archaic idea, in my mind anyway. But sacrifice his Son just for me, well, how narcissistic is
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: me to believe that, right? So are the k- habits of mind, of thinking, that, that I, when I say I'm recovered, don't think that way anymore. Um, and those, so I'm, the farther I get away from it, doesn't mean I've arrived, doesn't mean I'm, you know, quote, enlightened. means, it just means I think I've made a lot of progress in, uh, getting rid of some of those habits of mind that, that really hel- I think they hold people back, Jeremy.
I really do, especially things like the depravity of the soul. Think about that one. I mean, you're a horrible human being. You can't rely on your own judgment. Well, where's the human agency in
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: right? Who's responsible for my life if I'm so depraved I can't even make decisions, right? So there's, [00:28:00] there's those habits of mind that I, I think I'm referring to in that process.
Jeremy: That's great. So yeah, you've, you've embraced something that you were thinking about for a long time, and it sounds like it settled in and became a reality for you
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's not like, uh, I guess it's like, uh, you know, seeing the world in a whole new way and not And, and again, a habit of mind is really a good, I think, a good way to put it. when you're in the evangelical world, you develop habits of thinking and habits of mind based on that box, that doctrinal box that you're given uh, told, "Here's how the world is." Uh, and then when you get beyond that, you, you develop, you take responsibility for your own life and, uh, begin to define those things for yourself, you know?
Jeremy: Yeah, that's great. Okay, let's look at a few quotes you've got that I thought were, were interesting. You say this: "I have found abundant life without religion at the center of my thoughts or values. [00:29:00] This part is essential. It is a profound act of human agency, and for me, humanity and becoming more human are my goals.
When I identified as a born-again Christian, my goal was to be a better Christian, although I wasn't always sure what that meant, and I experienced a lot of anxiety about it. Now, my goal is to be the best human I can be, and that subtle shift in focus has made all the difference." What does it mean to be a better human apart from what we've attached to the, the...
our ideas of faith around that?
Daniel Henderson: Well, let me take it back to the teachings of Jesus, because I really believe this is where a lot of Christians misunderstand Jesus. And I, I, in my earlier book, I called Jesus one of the greatest humanists of history, because his teachings were so hum- humanistic. They're so about, uh, uh, human, hum- how do we live our lives?
What's the best [00:30:00] way to live? And, and somebody asked Jesus, "Well, what's the greatest commandment?" Well, the greatest commandment is to love God and love your neighbor. Well, that's pretty simple, but it's hard to do, especially when your neighbor, you know, sucks, right? Espe- espe-
Jeremy: It's amazing how many neighbors suck
Daniel Henderson: And, and especially if the neighbor doesn't look like you, or the neighbor doesn't worship the way you worship, right? So w- j- you know, the teachings of Jesus help, you know, uh, there's so many. Um, the last shall be first, the first shall be last, right? And so it's about developing connections with, first of all, your own humanity, because one of the things that, I, uh, discovered after leaving evangelicalism behind is that w- to be a good evangelical, it's like to be a good Christian, right, when I wrote that, is you have to sort of divorce yourself from your humanity. You [00:31:00] can't be a real human being. Pastors can't have flaws, right? You've, you've been a pastor, you know what I'm talking about. can't have issues, right, in your life. Uh, you can't be a human being. And so after I left that behind, I discovered, you know what? I need to reconnect to my own humanity and what it means to be a real human being, not a Christian, because that's, th- to me, that's kind of like a cul-de-sac.
You know, you go round and round and round. Am I good enough today? Did I pray enough today? Did I do my devotions today? What do- did I give enough money? know, that just goes round and round. But being a good human is a whole different matter, and, and it's about connecting with my own humanity, which allows me then to connect with the humanity of every other living human
Jeremy: Hmm.
Daniel Henderson: So what that does it, it strips down, uh, tribalism, [00:32:00] right? Humans are very tribal, and there's a reason for it. I w- won't go into it, but a reason for it. But it becomes a real problem when we have things like nuclear weapons and, you know, drones that can kill people. So how do we get beyond that now i- in terms of our common shared humanity? I would suggest that you can be a good Christian and still connect to your humanity. You can be a good Buddhist, you can be a good Muslim, you can be a good atheist, and still we can all connect with each other- In terms of our shared humanity. That overcomes those us versus them, that group over there, that group, they don't look like us so we can't, you know, love them. um, those, those kinds of... That approach is what I'm talking about in that quote, I think, is, uh, I, I, I have no desire to be a good Christian anymore. I left that behind, [00:33:00] but I really, really, really wanna try to be the best human being I can be, and that means loving myself and then loving every other human being that I come into contact with, and doing things that better my community, my...
the people around me. Family, of course, but, but even the people I don't know and, and, uh, don't look like me. So that's what I'm getting at in that quote, uh, Jeremy. I hope that makes sense.
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I, I think it's a fun pivot because, you know, most Christians, like you said, the goal is, "I gotta be a good Christian," which then, depending on the church community you're a part of, you know, it's, it is the Bible reading, it's the church attendance, it's how much you give. All these, all these markers that a lot of them can seem arbitrary in the sense where they may not cause you to love your neighbor any more directly, right?
And yet what you're saying is, what if we focused on being fully human? And it would be interesting if all Christians did that [00:34:00] in their pursuit of Jesus, if they thought, "Hey, rather than my goal to be some abstract good Christian, I'm gonna be fully human." Because I would argue that is the thing we see in Jesus.
Jesus was the fullness of what humanity looks like. So it's not... What you're proposing is not inherently an- you know, antagonistic to anything with Christianity. You're just pointing out that there is a gap in practice, which anyone who's been in Christianity long enough would agree with you. Like, yeah, there, there's a huge gap there
Daniel Henderson: Well, and, and there's a thought experiment you can do with this, and I write about it in the book, is what I've tried to train myself to do. This is why it's not... This is not easy, really, because we're so used to tribalism. You know, I'm so used to identifying myself as a baby boomer, white dude, straight, you know, from the Midwest.
Well, you can, you can draw a whole bunch of conclusions about me, you know, just based on that information. You may not like [00:35:00] it or you might like it. I mean, it just depends. But if began to identify myself first as I'm a human being who happens to be boomer, happens to be a white straight dude, um, and happens to be someone who has an interest in spirituality? Okay. notice the emphasis. The emphasis is on, not on those things that, know, might cause us to disagree, but it- it's on I am a human being first. So think about anyone. Uh, what if the MAGA guy next, my neighbor, right? I see him first as a human being who happens to be a MAGA supporter. Well, I have full, you know, pretty strong opinions about MAGA supporters, but I have compassion and empathy with human beings, [00:36:00] right?
So it changes the whole dynamic if you can train yourself to put the identities that we use to divide ourselves second. Now, the identities are still important. Always... You know, w- we've got people with white skin, we've got people with brown skin, dark sk- uh, black skin, uh, different religions. Those are, you know, those are cultural things that we use as identifiers, and that those aren't gonna go away. But they also cause us to divide ourselves. This, this is where a lot of the polariza- political ideas would be another one. So training myself, when I see somebody walking down the street and they don't look like me, trying to get myself to say, "Hey, there's a human being. Oh, and they're Black." Right? what? They're a human being. I can connect to that, right? that's, that's where it becomes re- uh, what I call in the book rewiring my brain, is to get me to think in terms of humanity first, [00:37:00] and any other identity is secondary to that
Jeremy: Yeah, I actually think that sounds a lot like Jesus, Daniel. I think, I think Christians,
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, I mean,
Jeremy: need to lean into this
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, I mean, the Samaritan and the woman at the well, these were all people that weren't like Jesus. They weren't the same tribe anyway, and, and, uh, I think He tended to see people as human beings. The, the centurion that came to Him, the Roman, you know, who came to Him, He didn't see him as a Roman. saw him as a human being who had a need, He met the need.
Jeremy: and Jesus'
Daniel Henderson: didn't matter
Jeremy: about enemy love, which is so radical compared to, you know, all the world religions, is, is getting at the humanity that you're saying. Humanity first. How do you have an enemy truly when you see that other person as fully human as l- uh, as, you know, as you are? Then whatever part makes them an enemy, right?
It's they're a different nationality or a religion or whatever, you know, they're opposing me in this or [00:38:00] that, is secondary to the fact that they are a fellow human
Daniel Henderson: Yeah. How can you pray for your enemies and love them if you, unless you put their humanity first? Even though they mistreat you, they're still human beings. Even though they're, they're not like you, they're still human beings. So love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you. How do you do that unless you, you prioritize over any other tribal identity? That's, that's the only way. So Jesus, yeah, I think you're right. I, I, I'm just trying to follow Jesus
Jeremy: The ultimate humanist. I love it.
Daniel Henderson: yeah, He is. I, you know, it's kind of scandalous
Jeremy: Ja
Daniel Henderson: because a lot of, a lot of evangelical Christians say, "Wow, those humanists, they're terrible." another identity,
Jeremy: Well, what's funny is we use humanist as a synonym for atheist a lot, right? Like, "You're just a humanist," you know, and it's... It is usually, when I hear it used, is in a derogatory sense. [00:39:00] I love that you're using it in such a pure sense of a humanist would be the goal for all of us, Jesus followers included, because that's, that is what, you know, He modeled.
And even theologically, if we think Jesus is fully God and fully divine, then He by definition is a humanist. He's fully human, offering us the way to do that, right? The example to follow
Daniel Henderson: doesn't... Yeah, the Bible doesn't describe him as fully Jewish. It describes him as fully human,
Jeremy: Ja
Daniel Henderson: and, and he happened to be. So again, here it is. We call Jesus a human being who happened to be Jewish. You see how that, that just turning those two words around, changes the priority? It's the humanity that's the priority. Now, being Jewish is important. I'm not saying that's not important. Um, it isn't the first priority,
Jeremy: Yeah.
Daniel Henderson: right?
Jeremy: I'm with you, Daniel. I like it. It's good stuff.
Daniel Henderson: [00:40:00] Okay.
Jeremy: so this gets us into community then. So if we can learn to see others the way you're describing, we can exist in community together. I can imagine someone who's listening to this is like, "Well, my community is faith-based, so how would I have a sense of community without that?"
Here's a quote you say. "In the post-evangelical era of my life, community has come to mean something quite different and frankly more meaningful than it did during my evangelical period."
I would love to know, outside of a church, 'cause that's again where most of us, our minds go, what does community look like for you? How have you seen this in the way that you're describing?
Daniel Henderson: Okay, very good question. So let me, let me first say that the community I experienced when I was an Evangelical, uh, w- was a good thing for me, particularly when I was young. I, I became a Evangelical as a young kid, and the youth groups I was in, the church I was [00:41:00] in, uh, they were all really, quite frankly for me, a pretty positive experience. And I even still have friends from that era
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: And some of th- now some of them are Evangelicals, some of them aren't. A lot of them have gone the, the, the same journey or a similar journey. But here's what I discovered and, and I'll tell you the, I'll, I'll tell you the quick story, uh, that goes with it in just a second.
But what I discovered is that community in an Evangelical sense is faith-based. You ju- you said it. And I call it belief-based, so it means you're part of the community, you're all good with us as long as you believe the way we do. So in essence, your acceptance in the community is quite conditional. You're loved, you're cared for, you're... You know, if you have a need, we'll take, we'll take care of you. And, and I experienced that. There were times when I experienced that from other [00:42:00] believers and, and I, I don't doubt their sincerity. But the minute I began to doubt and ask questions, all of a
Jeremy: You're not safe anymore
Daniel Henderson: You're not quite part of the group the w- in fact, we, well, you're part of the group because we're gonna, we're gonna pray for you at the next prayer meeting. You're, you're, you're the next
Jeremy: The prayer of concern
Daniel Henderson: w- Yeah, prayer of concern 'cause you're kinda backsliding there, you know? So okay, so you've got that. And, and what I would suggest is that any time you're in a community of people where it's belief-based and you have a different belief, you're gonna, you're, you're gonna find yourself rejected at some point.
You're gonna find yourself on the outs. Uh, and, and that's hurtful. I mean, I, I, I So the story I'll tell is this. Uh, when I was into Christian school, was the, uh, principal of the largest Christian [00:43:00] school in Iowa 19- early '90s, and I was married and had two kids. Uh, my wife was a and we went to a, you know, we, we were a Christian family, and, and we were kind of the role model, and everybody, you know, e- Well, m- my wife and I ended up getting divorced in 1993, and this is not good for an evangelical leader. And so I had a parent, uh, uh, come in, to my office o- shortly after it was announced I was getting a divorce, and he asked if he could speak to me, and I said, "Sure." I thought he wanted to talk about his daughter, you know? And, and so he came in, sat down, and he said, "Well, I hear you're getting a divorce." I said, "Oh, well, yeah, unfortunately that's true." He said, "Well, God has told me that you're no longer fit to be the role model for our children, and you should resign." And so it was, it was the classic [00:44:00] community, no longer part of the community. You know, Christian leaders don't get
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: That's just not allowable. you probably have seen it before.
Pastors, youth pastors, when they go through a situa- That's why I say you really can't be a human, uh, in an evangelical sense, particularly if you're a leader. You have to divorce yourself from humanity, your own humanity, your own flaws, your own weaknesses, your own problems. so that, that, that was probably, uh, that event along with the divorce itself which kinda shook my whole worldview about, well, I thought I was in God's will.
This goes back to the perfect plan, right? I thought I had the perfect plan.
Jeremy: Whoops.
Daniel Henderson: I had it. Here it was. I had, I got, you know, wonderful wife and two kids. I got a, you know, Christian school. I'm the principal of the biggest Christian school in Iowa, and then boom, uh, you know, you're no longer acceptable, right?
Jeremy: Well, that's a story so many people [00:45:00] can relate with because that happens over and over and over. And someone does something, they say something, they ask a question. They say, "Hey, I don't know if I believe this one thing like I used to," and then the community reacts and they go, "Whoa, this was way more conditional than I had any idea
Daniel Henderson: So, so on the other side, 'cause your question was about where do we find community we leave
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: Uh, uh, so in the past 20 years, I have found so much community in, uh, together with people who aren't like me. One of the things, and, and it... There are several different ways I've done that, so I'll give you two examples. Uh, one is, you know, I'm a Midwestern guy. Iowa is not a very diverse state. So
Jeremy: I, I don't think of it that way, so that's good to know.
Daniel Henderson: it is, it's
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: [00:46:00] And, and I didn't have many f- friends of color, people of color. And so I be- I th- And, and, and one of the thing, one of the realizations I came to once I came to this understanding of connecting with people in their humanity instead of their identity is I don't have any friends that are Black. And, and the church actually conditioned me that way, to think that way. If you look at churches, particularly in Iowa, I don't know where they are in Arizona, but pretty segregated,
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: you know? They're, they're not a lot of integration in there. And, and you, a- and I developed, or I talked about what I call the Billy Graham doctrine, which is, you know, if you ask Billy Graham when he was preacher, when he was alive, uh, whether he thought racism was wrong, he would say, "Oh yeah, that's a sin.
You can't be racist." And he believed that. But if you asked him, "Well, how do we get rid of racism?" His only answer was, "Well, you gotta come to Jesus and accept [00:47:00] Jesus. That's the only way." All right? Well, what that... If you think about that, that makes racism completely individual to the, to me. So I can say, "Well, Jesus has forgiven me from our racism.
I'm not worried about racism anymore." Forget the systemic part of it. Forget the fact that our whole society is based on white supremacy, and that there are inequities within every institution that exists. I'm forgiven, so I'm good. I'm going to heaven, right? So it's, it's, it's like a permission slip. Yeah, you can ignore the issue now because you're
Jeremy: You got a hall pass
Daniel Henderson: Yep, got a hall pass. So when I came out of that, I realized, yeah, first of all, I remember back to very- various people in my evangelical life who were very racist people. remember racist jokes at summer camp, I mean, counselors. I mean, you know, we're talking. And, and it's [00:48:00] like, well, wait a minute. Christians.
They've accepted Jesus as their savior. That didn't, that didn't erase their racism. They're still just as racist as, know, the guy who might not be a Christian who's a racist.
Jeremy: Are you saying Billy Graham was wrong?
Daniel Henderson: No, I think Billy Graham was misdirected. I th-
Jeremy: Billy Graham was wrong on a number of things, so I'm just picking on him right now
Daniel Henderson: Yeah. Well, I, I write in another place about what if Billy Graham had been a true anti-racist, true anti-racist?
Meaning, he would've come out and stood with Dr. Martin Luther King in Selma. He would've come to the, uh, March on Washington, 'cause he was invited, he didn't go. What if he had turned the whole evangelical church into anti-racists? Because he had that kind of
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: He really did. He was the pope of the evangelical world. And, and [00:49:00] he didn't do it. Now, he would say, "Oh, yeah, racism is a sin," "And I don't wanna be a racist." But he was not an anti-racist. So that's what I discovered coming out of evangelicalism, is I'm not an anti-racist. I wanna become an anti-racist. So anyway, going back to community, I mean, I, I, I, I just began to reach out to other writers.
Now I... By that time, I was doing a lot of writing, so I reached out to writers, uh, who were people of color, uh, artists, so on. And I made some of the most wonderful friends that exposed me to just a whole new culture, for one
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: that I, you know, had very little knowledge of. with the LGBTQ community, because, you know, you know how that works in the evangelical church. That's just a no-no. So, uh, I, I, you know, I have bec- I have befriended people c- at, at the Pride parades gotten involved in community. And you know what I found out, Jeremy? [00:50:00] Gay people love you no matter who you are. They they, partly because they're s- they have been so abused rejected and kicked alongside the road themselves that they, they have a resilience and a love that is very, very powerful, uh, because of their experience. And I, I, I... There have been some, some of those events I've gone to where I felt more love and acceptance in my
Jeremy: Ja
Daniel Henderson: than anything I ever experienced in the evangelical world. So those are a couple of examples, and then I have been reaching out recently, more in the last couple years, to, uh, non-doctrinal churches.
So I, I, I actually, uh, I was living in Spokane this summer, Spokane, Washington, and, and I, uh, connected up with a, uh, Unity Church, Unity, uh, Spiritual Center. And it's a fantastic place because there's no [00:51:00] doctrine that
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: to s- you know, there's no doctrinal statement you gotta sign. You're not have to believe...
You can be an atheist and come here because we believe in humanity. And that was like, "Oh, this is the place for me. You know, this is what I wanna do." And, and, and there's all kinds of different flavors of people, and they have all kinds of different ideas, they love one another, goes back to what Jesus taught us, isn't it?
I
Jeremy: That's so cool
Daniel Henderson: that's the bottom line. Yeah. So there are communities. Now, you might have to look for them and find them and, and exert yourself, you know, once you come out of evangelical world, but they're there. And I would say that that kind of community i- is, is what we need. It's, it's what's gonna save us. It's not gonna be the Christian community
Jeremy: Well, and
Daniel Henderson: or even, even the Muslim community or even those communities that are exclusive that wanna divide people.
Jeremy: But that's the point you're making. A lot of those communities are, are all like-minded [00:52:00] people, so it's, it's a hub to get reinforced that everything I believe is true, everything I feel is right, you know. And, and that's not an environment where you're gonna grow to the same level as when you have people challenging you or saying, "Why do you see it that way?"
Or, "Hey, that's totally different than my lived experience." And then you have to make sense of that, and that is a beautiful sense.
Daniel Henderson: yeah
Jeremy: I just, I hope that, again, to a listener who may be on the more of the fringes of this journey for themselves, and maybe they're thinking... 'Cause I hear this a lot, "I could never go back to a church," you know, like that, "I had bad experiences."
And I don't give people blanket endorsements that you need to if, if that's not gonna be good for you. But I love that you're, you're showing like, look, you can find community outside of it in these intentional ways. And so again, it's just one more piece for people to realize you have lots of different ways you can navigate this journey, and you are providing a number of them.
Okay, I wanna get to two more quotes before we run out of time here. And, and
Daniel Henderson: do it
Jeremy: you, you [00:53:00] write about something that every now and then we'll get into in the deconstruction conversation. We don't get into it enough, I think, but I was asked about it. We had a Q&A after I preached on Sunday, and someone brought this up, and so this was fresh in my mind that this is something we need to talk more about.
And I love y- you give us a great opportunity to do it. So here's the quote. You talk about some of your past, and you've referenced it, but here's what you say. "From 1979 to 1997, I taught history at Christian schools. During that time, I promoted the white Christian nationalist idea that the United States was founded on biblical law and that it was a Christian nation.
I taught students that the separation of church and state was at best uneven and at worst a myth." Then you say this line, "I wish I hadn't done that." And I love the honesty of that because what I have found, if you get deep enough in the deconstruction journey, [00:54:00] you start to have an awareness of your own complicity, of things you used to do, you used to, you know...
And for me, it's like I preach sermons that I cringe about, you know, that I'm like, "I cannot believe I said that from the pulpit," but I believed it. And I counseled couples in our church, advice that now I, I wanna just curl under a blanket and pretend like never happened. But there's a reckoning that for our own healing, our own growth, we have to stare at this stuff and go, "I was a part of that."
You're offering an invitation here. So what have you learned? As someone who's further down this road than many others, what have you learned about looking back on things and versions of yourself that now make you cringe?
Daniel Henderson: Hmm. I used to be... When, when I first came out of evangelical life, I was kind of embarrassed to talk about it to other people. Uh, and, and after a while I [00:55:00] got over that because I realized that my evangelical experience is just simply part of my life experience making me who I am today. So I'm not embarrassed by it anymore and... But having said that, I do want To make amends. so one of the way I do-- there's several ways I do this. The writing is one way. In fact, my first book, of a Recovering Evangelical, which I wrote... That one was published in twenty twenty-two. Um, I dedicated that book to all of my former Christian school students. And I, and I-- and in the end introduction dedication part, I, I, I kinda wrote them a note, and, and that's because I, I still have, um, connections and, and relationships with some of those students. And I look back over my career, you know, I taught thirty years, twenty years in the Christian school. Uh, we're [00:56:00] talking hundreds, maybe thousands of kids that, that I had some influence with. And I've maintained connections with some of them. Some of them are really happy with, with where I've gone and, and supportive. In fact, I've got a couple of s- former students that wrote endorsements for my
Jeremy: Oh, that's cool
Daniel Henderson: Oh, it was so-- It was s-- Talk about rewarding. That was so rewarding. But I've also had conversations, like on Facebook, with former students who angry with me. They said, "Were you lying to us? Were you just lying to us?" and, and it's a hard thing to explain because it's like, you know, I was doing what I thought was right at that time in my life. I wasn't trying to be insincere. But it illustrated two things for me, that that never changes, uh, it, it, it gets stuck. And for this student in particular who was really upset that I, I had [00:57:00] changed, right? He was still stuck in the same faith, you know, tradition and mode, which that was fine if it worked for him. I didn't care. But, but I wanted him to understand that I have grown and, and my faith is different now. I'm, I'm sorry if you feel that way, that, you know, if you're angry. But the other point that I tried to get across to him is your faith is your responsibility. The mistake you make is in looking to me Even then, back when you were a student, you should have questioned. You should have questioned it. You should have an, uh, asked, uh, you should have doubted it, right? That's how your faith grows. doesn't grow when you just accept what somebody out, you know, some authoritarian religious figure tells you, right? Uh, and then you never change. You just keep going. So that's been a, that's been an interesting journey. The writing is a big part of it. Now, [00:58:00] uh, more recently, uh, I have begun to offer, um, workshop.
In fact, I'm offering a workshop this fall right here in my hometown called Challenging Christian Nationalism. And it's a four-part series on... It goes beyond, it, it's going beyond just, well, what is Christian nationalism? And, and of course, from my point of view, I mean, I knew who David Barton was before anybody knew who David Barton was, 'Cause I used his stuff in my classes, and I mean, this is back in the '80s, you know? And I understand Christian nationalism. I understand the thought process. I wanna help people deconstruct that so they can make their own choices about it, but also know how to challenge it, because it needs to be challenged.
It's at a whole different level now in terms of power than it was in the '80s and '90s. But, uh, so I'm offering this workshop. I'm probably gonna take it online eventually, and, and I wanna do whatever I can. [00:59:00] I, I don't know if undo the damage is the right word, but maybe undo some of the damage I might have caused when I was teaching those, those ideas. Um, and, uh, so whatever I can do. I, I, I, I, I don't feel guilty anymore. I kind of felt guilty for a while about, you know, some of that stuff I did, some of the things I taught. But, uh, it's, it's a little bit more like, yeah, I've just kind of grown, and, uh, I, I'm no longer in that place, and that's a really good thing. But I'm gonna have to try to explain it to
Jeremy: Ja
Daniel Henderson: because not everybody understands
Jeremy: and ironically, I wonder how many people avoid changing their mind to avoid having to say, "I was wrong in the past, and I don't know how to reconcile that now."
Daniel Henderson: Yeah. Yeah, and that, but that's part of the evangelical mindset. Just saying, "Hey, I was wrong," many evangelicals say that?
Jeremy: It's not a, it's not a common thing, Daniel, no
Daniel Henderson: [01:00:00] No, no, no. Uh, because you're certain. Certainty, certainty is the goal
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: in evangelical world. You gotta know every- you gotta have all the answers. Everything's certain. And, and if you pull one, one, uh, Jenga block out of the structure, man, the whole thing might
Jeremy: Ja
Daniel Henderson: So you gotta defend it all, whether it's the six-day creation and 6,000-year, know,
Jeremy: It's a v- it's a very fragile faith when you get under the hood
Daniel Henderson: oh my gosh, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a house of
Jeremy: It is
Daniel Henderson: is, is what it is. And I don't mean that to demean anybody who believes those things, but I, but that's why the questioning and the doubting is so important, 'cause once you do that, it, it, it, it doesn't take long for you to realize, yeah, they really don't have all the answers.
Jeremy: Well, and this is what I, I encourage people who begin any kind of deconstruction journey. You know, you often... You begin it with one domino, right? And it can be anything. It can be you're rethinking hell, or you're rethinking, [01:01:00] you know, is God really against gay people, and you, you know, you rethink that, or any number of theological issue, Christian nationalism.
And you knock the one domino over, and you're, all you're attempting to do, or this person is, is rethink that one issue. And then what happens is they realize there was, like, 10 dominoes behind it, right? They didn't see them. And then they start going, "Oh, no. Well, then that means there's a problem with this, and there's a problem..."
And it... You just start un-undoing it all, and that begins the journey. And that's why I tell people is you can't control it. You can't manage what issues you're gonna get into, but just go. Go along for the ride. And, and it, and it... You go back to the journey. Like, enjoy the journey of exploring and asking questions and, and being open to new ideas that you've not thought of before
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, the journey is the destination,
Jeremy: I love that.
Daniel Henderson: you know? Yep
Jeremy: right, so let's get one more quote. Let's get back to Jesus, 'cause I thought after all we're talking about, I wanna, I wanna land you back at Jesus. You've already talked about Jesus, Daniel, a number of times. I'm very proud for someone who's left evangelicalism, [01:02:00] how often you talk about Jesus is delightful.
Here's what you say: "Looking back over 20 years after leaving religion behind, the most startling realization for me is that the teachings of Jesus, without the lens of evangelical faith, are even more radical and compelling than I had thought before, especially when contrasted with white Christian nationalism.
How ironic it is that I had to leave evangelicalism behind to find Jesus." I love that so much
Daniel Henderson: Yeah. And it isn't, it isn't a, uh, like a born-again experience kind of thing, you know? Put... That's not the lens I'm say- I'm using in that line. It, it, it's more how in, in coming to understanding Jesus as a humanist, let me go back to that f- that framework, understanding the teachings of [01:03:00] Jesus from the st- from the framework of common shared humanity, that was a revelation to me.
I mean, that's an epiphany to me, and it opened up whole new world of thinking about Jesus and going beyond Christianity. See, I don't even think Jesus... Jesus didn't have anything to do with Christianity than other people took, you know, his name and, some of his teachings, and maybe some things about his life, and created this super structure of doctrine and belief that you have to believe in. don't think Jesus had any of that in mind. I, I think he was very much, uh, thinking about the connection of human beings to each other. He universalized whole concept of God. You know, if you, if you compare the God of Jesus to the God of the Old Testament, they are not the same
Jeremy: Š£Š³Ń
Daniel Henderson: I mean, the God of the Old Testament is pretty puny guy [01:04:00] that, you know, gets jealous and, you know, destroys the
Jeremy: Needs to kill a bunch of people
Daniel Henderson: we're gonna...
Yeah, we commit genocide because we don't like that group." The, the... When Jesus talked about God, I think he was talking about something so universal that connects all of us together, that if we can connect with that, that's where we're gonna find, uh, where, where we're gonna overcome that tribalism, for one thing. Uh, but it, and, and so there's still a place, I think, f- in today's world to promote and talk about the teachings of Jesus, but not within the context of evangelicalism. That's too narrow. That box is so small when you think about Jesus was talking about. Um, and, and quite frankly, it takes the power away from it, uh, of what Jesus was really talking about. yeah, I haven't, uh... Th- That phrase or that quote that you, you put there, that really is true. And, and, uh, I wouldn't, uh, [01:05:00] wouldn't call myself a Christian, but I sure would call myself a follower of Jesus
Jeremy: Love it, Daniel. That's so good.
Daniel Henderson: Good.
Jeremy: right, we're gonna close with some questions that I like to ask each of our guests, and we compare your answers with everyone else. Start
Daniel Henderson: this'll be
Jeremy: w- with a couple wine ones, okay? So the first one, I know you are a wine guy, so I'm excited for this. If I were to ask you, Daniel, the best glass of wine you have ever had in your life, what story comes to mind?
Can you think of where you were, who you were with, what you were drinking? W- what, what comes to your mind when you think about wine as good as it has ever been for you?
Daniel Henderson: Well, that's a really good question, uh, because I've had so many good
Jeremy: Yes
Daniel Henderson: wine in my day. You know, you look at how old I am. I mean, I've been around a long time, man. I,
Jeremy: That's a lot of wine.
Daniel Henderson: had a lot of wine. Uh, but, uh, to answer your question, um, there, there's a winery... [01:06:00] There's actually a winery in, uh, Oregon,
Jeremy: Come on now. It's my, this is my favorite place
Daniel Henderson: Okay, it's in the Columbia Gorge region, and it's up on the side of a mountain where they have these beautiful vineyards. And I just happened to stumble upon this, uh, vineyard. I was traveling through the Gorge, right? Saw the sign for it, so I thought, "Well, I'm gonna go check it out." And went up there and, uh, looked at their wine, took a glass. went out and sat in their yard. They said, "You can go out and sit in the yard if you want." And, and the yard looks out across the
Jeremy: Which is one of the most stunningly beautiful places ever. I mean, just re- remarkable
Daniel Henderson: and I was alone. I, I, I, I was traveling alone at the time, so I wasn't with anybody. But I remember drinking that glass of wine, and it was so good.
It was, it was really, really vintage. And, uh, and looking out at that scenery and I thought, "Man, I, I don't need [01:07:00] anything else in my life right now. This is the only place I wanna be. This is what I wanna sit here and do."
Jeremy: Love it
Daniel Henderson: was in the moment, let me put it that way. So that would, that would answer that question
Jeremy: That's so good. I'm going to Oregon this week and doing a wine trip with some guys, so I'm very excited to go experience what you just talked about
Daniel Henderson: Cathedral, Cathedral Ridge is the name of the
Jeremy: Yeah, I'm familiar with that one
Daniel Henderson: you get up there. It's near Mount Hood, so the, the little town called
Jeremy: Yep.
Daniel Henderson: along the
Jeremy: Yeah, very beautiful. All right, Daniel, which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you, and who would you not trust and why?
Daniel Henderson: Boy, who, who in church history would
Jeremy: Would you trust to get you a bottle of wine? And then who would you not trust? And then give us your reasons
Daniel Henderson: Okay Um, I think I would trust Martin [01:08:00] Luther to pick out a bottle of wine because I understand he drank quite
Jeremy: He was a drinker, yeah
Daniel Henderson: He was a drinker. I think he probably had a... And he was a German. He probably had a pretty good palate. I got a lot of German background, so, yeah. So I think Martin Luther maybe to pick out a good one.
The one I wouldn't trust, uh Probably, probably... Let me think here a minute. I gotta get the right name. I think it would be, um, well, I, I'm gonna say Augustine.
Jeremy: I, I resonate with this one deeply
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, uh, Augustine just had such a dour view of humanity, uh, that I, I'm not sure I'd trust that guy to pick out a bottle of
Jeremy: And it wouldn't be a fun conversation, let's be honest.
Daniel Henderson: no, I don't think it would. It would just be how
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: depraved you are, you know? We could probably have a few drinks around that, and I might even end up agreeing eventually, but, you know,
Jeremy: Oh, [01:09:00] that's so funny.
Daniel Henderson: I don't think it would work
Jeremy: Okay, so I have a question I normally ask, and you actually had a quote that was almost, uh, verbatim. My question is: What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about? And then I read this quote from your book, "Looking back at my first book, I realize I now disagree with some of the ideas I once held."
So I thought, okay, maybe it's your first books, but, like, what... where would you go with that?
Daniel Henderson: Well, uh, uh, the, the issue, the one thing I was thinking about when I wrote that was in my first book, I still referred to my belief system, I still referred to myself as a Christian in my first book. Although I, I, I, um, I, uh, uh, all kind of conditioned it a little bit on the idea that, know, I still consider myself a Christian, but I'm probably gonna be considered a heretic by most of the
Jeremy: But not once you [01:10:00] finish this book
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, which was okay because I know a lot of really, really good, nice heretics, and I love
Jeremy: We've, we've had a lot on this podcast
Daniel Henderson: yeah. And, and so now, uh, the, the difference is I don't even call myself- I, I've just gotten rid of that label completely. It, it, it doesn't mean anything to me anymore I, I've studied church history. I used to teach church history when I was in Christian school, and, uh, uh, there's just nothing resembling, that I can think of, the life of Jesus that, that is reflect...
Now, there are people, individuals, who I ca- through... There's this thread through all of church history that, that keeps the thread of Christ, Christ's teachings alive. But the church, you know, whether it's Christendom, whether it's the Crusades, whether it's this doctrine of discovery and we're gonna wipe out all the people in North and South America the name of Jesus, you know, uh, nothing [01:11:00] Christianity that I need to hang onto anymore. So that's what that's about
Jeremy: All right, I like it. What's something that's blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
Daniel Henderson: Oh, that's a good one, uh, because I have been studying neuroscience of neuroplasticity in the brain. And it, it... And I talk a little bit about it in the n- new book, because I was just starting to get into it as I was writing that book. But it's about being able change the way we think very, very deliberately, and the neuroscience of that, uh, supports the idea you can change your brain. Okay? And by, by just the, the example I used earlier about changing the wording around, using the word human before any other identity, all right? Well, when I started practicing that, what I [01:12:00] learned is that terms of neuroplasticity, this was creating new neural networks within my brain. And the more and more that I practice it... So it's like, it's like how do you get really good at playing basketball? Well, you practice it over and over, because your brain is imprinting those neural networks for what to do, and you can get really good at it, right? Well, the same is true if you wanna think a different way. If you wanna change the way your brain functions, you can do it yourself. so that, that has really been an interesting discovery for me to realize, first of all, I have the agency to do that. I can change my
Jeremy: Yeah
Daniel Henderson: I want to. But it means you gotta be open to, to thinking different ways, learning new things. Learning something new is always a good way to change your brain. Um, you know, learn a new language, learn about a new religion, different religion. anything like that. Uh, so that has been a fun... [01:13:00] I actually, uh, also connected that to the process of writing, because one of the, one of the studies I read, uh, talked about the process of writing helps to change your brain, okay? particularly if you've gone through a, a traumatic experience, and, and I won't go into all my traumatic experiences. But, but when I wrote about those, my brain rewired the story behind it, okay? And gave me a new narrative to think about I wrote it. Because the, the act of writing slows your brain down.
It slows down the whole, uh, language process. So there's a lot of science behind that that I'm discovering that is just fascinating, it shows me again just how, how much power humans have to change themselves, to be different, to choose a different way. We can do that, and, and that's a lot of what I've, I've been writing [01:14:00] about.
So yeah, long
Jeremy: Good answer.
Daniel Henderson: but as... Yeah.
Jeremy: All right, well, we've talked about a lot, Daniel. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you wanna add before we close this out? And it wouldn't be right if we didn't, if we didn't let you talk about it
Daniel Henderson: Well, I, I wanna tell you my website
Jeremy: I'm gonna ask you that in just a second. I'm gonna ask you that in just a second
Daniel Henderson: Okay. Well, beyond that, I, I think, uh, you know, for me, I've, I've written three books now, uh, about my journey, and I, I'm contemplating writing another one. Uh, but I, I think my message is the journey never ends, and that's the beauty of it. If, if, if you're
If people are leaving their evangelical faith behind, I hope they'll understand, first of all, they're not alone. There are a lot of people out there like you, myself, and others who have gone through this, and there is abundant life, very, very [01:15:00] abundant life after you leave your faith behind, if that's what you choose to do. Uh, but even after you do that, um, the, the whole art of being human is learning, learning something new and b- and changing, allowing yourself to change, and to go on the journey and just keep going on the journey. Don't stop. You know, I'm 70 years old. Well, actually, I'll be 71 tomorrow,
Jeremy: Well, happy birthday
Daniel Henderson: you. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, and, and I'm so excited, uh, about what I'm learning these days because I know that it's helping me change and become a better human being. I'm trying to do anyway. And, uh, so I, I encourage people to think about that. Uh, it's an exciting journey.
Jeremy: I love that. I want that perspective when I'm 71, Daniel
Daniel Henderson: Man, I'll tell you, life is good. I got grandkids. I mean, there's so many things to live
Jeremy: That's so good. All right. Someone who is listening to this, they're like, "I like this guy. I resonate with this," what's the best way for them to connect [01:16:00] with you and your work online?
Daniel Henderson: There's two ways. I've got, uh, two websites. One is, uh, Dan Henderson author, one word, .com. DanHendersonauthor.com. That's where you're gonna find all the works I've done, some other stuff. That... In fact, that's where you'll find information about the, uh, uh, uh, workshops I'm doing on Christian nationalism. The other is I have a Substack column. You're familiar with Substack, I assume. but I do. It's called... The name of it is... So if you look it up, you just put in Things We Don't Talk About Like Politics and Religion. That's the
Jeremy: Which is a, a great name, by the way.
Daniel Henderson: and that's what I...
Jeremy: I'm not gonna invite you over to Thanksgiving, but it's a great name.
Daniel Henderson: Yeah, you wouldn't wanna do that. uh, I, I put out two columns a week uh, oh my gosh, it's so fun, uh, because it, it... week I'm thinking about what's going on and how I can frame it and how I think about it, [01:17:00] and, uh, I get such good feedback from people. So if you wanna subscribe, it's free of course. So, uh, Dan, uh, uh, Things We Don't Talk About Like Politics and Religion
Jeremy: So good. Well, Dan, I love the work that you're doing. I love the posture of your faith
Daniel Henderson: Oh,
Jeremy: and the fact that you are following Jesus in a really beautiful way, and you're doing it in a creative way for a lot of people that haven't maybe seen it done like that. But you're giving options for people to be more fully human, to be more fully alive.
And so thank you for the work that you're doing, the books that you're writing, the Substacks that you're creating, and thank you for taking the time to join us on the pod today
Daniel Henderson: Well, thank you for having me, Jeremy. This has been fun and, and, and I enjoy sharing a glass of wine with
Jeremy: Well, absolutely. It's... A- any reason to enjoy a good glass of wine and talk about God, it's a good day.
Daniel Henderson: yeah. Yeah, it is a good day
Jeremy: Well, thank you everybody for joining us on this episode of Cabernet and Pray. We will see you all next [01:18:00] Wednesday for the next episode. Bye, friends.
