Letting Go of Control: Jesus and Lao Tzu (with Gregory T. Smith) | Ep. 93
===
Jeremy: [00:00:00] today, we're gonna take you somewhere you have probably never gone before.
I think that's safe to say. We're gonna explore what happens when you bring Jesus to a campfire and Lao Tzu, the person who established the ideas of Taoism, and you bring them into conversation together.
Not to necessarily blend them to create something new, but to bring them both into the same conversation. It is fascinating to find a Jesus follower who is doing this. Today is an interview with Gregory T. Smith. He is the author of a book that has recently published called Jesus and Lao Tzu: The Way of Love, released in September.
Greg spent 26 years as a Baptist pastor, and he's got all the trauma you'd expect from that. He now works in behavioral health and community services. His writing today explores progressive [00:01:00] Christianity, interfaith spirituality, and what it means to follow the way of Jesus beyond the boundaries of conventional religion.
He writes a blog at Patheos called Breathing Space, and he lives in British Columbia with his wife, Christina. This is a fascinating conversation that we got into. I had to do some homework for this one, not only to learn how to pronounce the names that we talked about, but because it's something I was not as familiar with as well, and yet I loved the things that I walked away from this conversation with, and I suspect you will have the same reaction.
This episode is called Letting Go of Control with Jesus and Lao Tzu
I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot.
Resistance to change [00:02:00] is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universe spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.
So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast, and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.
It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about [00:03:00] your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know.
I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology. So I, oh. I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is... But here we are.
Queer we are. Here we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. I'm an emotional guy. Paired with a half a glass of wine, I'm beet red, sweating, and about to cry here. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you had your guest drink wine.
It makes sense now. Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage here to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good [00:04:00] podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice. Cabernet and pray, yeah
Jeremy: Well, on this show, we like to pair a great, robust theological conversation with a glass of wine, and my guest today is going to argue that Jesus and a Chinese poet go together like peanut butter and chocolate. And so evidently, he is an expert at pairings.
Gregory, welcome to the pod.
Gregory T. Smith: It is so good to be here, Jeremy. I appreciate you having me, and I look forward to, having some peanut butter and chocolate along with some wine
Jeremy: I mean, I'm a big fan of Reese's, so when you came out of the gate with this pairing, I was like, "Okay, I like it," and I like chocolate, I like peanut butter. They're amazing together. So you had, you had me hooked at the very premise. So we're already enjoying things.
I'd love to talk about what we're drinking today. I have got an Italian wine. So this is a 2020. [00:05:00] Let's see if my camera will zoom there. 2020 Solo Per Amore. This is a red blend from Italy. It's 60% of the Dolcetto grape, 40% of the Nebbiolo grape, and I don't know, Greg, this is not like most wines I've had. I'm getting into this thing, and there's, like, no fruit notes that I get at all, which for anyone who's had a glass of wine, not common.
You normally get some fruit notes. I am not. The dominant note I'm getting is cola, just, like, the, the standard cola note and then a lot of, like, minerality, cedar, potting soil, clay pot. I always joke of, like, forest floor is, I think, the funniest tasting note, but I would say I'm getting a little bit of that here So for me, it's just not a normal, uh, not a normal glass at all, but I dig it.
I really dig this. This is more of an o- old world style wine for sure, and it's had a little bit of time to age, so it's, it's really a fun one. [00:06:00] I love to try, I try my best to connect the wine to the conversation when at all possible, and Gregory, do I have a doozy for you today. Are you ready for this?
Gregory T. Smith: Give me the doozy
Jeremy: So the name of this is Solo Per Amore, which translates to for the love of it. The subtitle of your book is The Way of Love, and here's what's hilarious. I was looking at wine reviews of this, of this bottle. One wine reviewer gave a backhanded compliment, and they said this: is another serious wine despite its rather silly name." Which I was like, wow. I mean, throw shade at that name. So I'm ready to explore today whether the way of love is silly or not. How's that?
Gregory T. Smith: We're gonna, we're gonna find that out.
Jeremy: is
Gregory T. Smith: That's fan- that's fantastic. I, I like that, I like that selection. That's a good selection. [00:07:00] We're gonna talk about The Way of Love and see if it, uh, fits with your For the Love of It
Jeremy: we go. All right, so that's what I'm drinking. What do you got in your glass today?
Gregory T. Smith: I have got, um, if I, if I pronounce this correctly, this is Nk'Mip Cellars. So th- this is, um... it's four- 14.5%, uh, you know, alcohol, and it's a Merlot, and my brother brought this to me from the Okanagan Valley when he came to visit us here in British Columbia. So this is a local or fairly local wine to where I am, and I also wanted to pair it with the conversation.
Jeremy: yes
Gregory T. Smith: Uh, so it wa- you'll see where I'm going here. Uh, but I wanna share a little bit about... Uh, so this is the, the label.
Jeremy: cool
Gregory T. Smith: Beaut- beautiful label. And it says on the back, uh, "Throughout the Okanagan Valley on cliffs and in caves are hundreds of drawings of animals and [00:08:00] people known as pictographs, evidence of a culture that has continued to florence- flourish in the Okanagan Valley for thousands of years.
The Osoyoos Indian Band are a proud and progressive people, and first to commercially plant Vitis vinifera vineyards in the South Okanagan. The depth and complexity exhibited in every glass of Nk'Mip Cellars wine is a reflection of the years of nurture and experience in the vineyard. Nk'Mip Cellars, North America's first Indigenous-owned and -operated winery.
Discover the legend of our land in every glass."
Jeremy: What a story
Gregory T. Smith: Right? Right? Isn't that great? So, uh, I thought that it paired well, even though, you know, today we're talking about, um, we're talking about Jesus and Lao Tzu. Um, this, this is [00:09:00] really a conversation about what it means to recognize wisdom from a tradition other than our own.
And I thought I would bring in, uh, some
Jeremy: An indigenous wine to
Gregory T. Smith: an Indigenous wine. Yes, absolutely. So that's a, that's a fairly local winery from where I am
Jeremy: Well, Gregory, cheers to you and to our listeners if you are able to enjoy a glass with us as well. Cheers to you on another
Gregory T. Smith: Cheers to you
Jeremy: and conversation All right, Gregory, for someone is new to you and new to your story...
Gregory T. Smith: Mm-hmm
Jeremy: pleasant reaction to that, for those of you only listening on audio.
Gregory T. Smith: That is very nice
Jeremy: We love that reaction here. We love that. So someone who's new to you, new to your story, one of the questions I love to start with is tell us about the recent journey that you've been on with God.
What has the last 10 [00:10:00] years looked like? How has your faith changed during that time?
Gregory T. Smith: Oh my goodness. Well, the last 10 years. Uh, the last 10 years have had a lot of changes, uh, a lot of life changes and a lot of faith changes as well. Uh, in the past 10 years, I, um, went through a lot of personal transitions. I went through a divorce, a new, uh, new relationship, uh, a new marriage. Uh, I moved across the continent into a different country.
Uh, so I'm, I'm from Virginia, and I now live in British Columbia. Uh, I was a pastor. I was pastoring churches for 26 years, and now I'm in social work. So there's been a lot of changes in the last 10 years just in a, in my personal life. And I would say that my faith journey has, um, continued [00:11:00] to grow and develop and evolve as well.
Um, I would say that when I was in ministry, um, I, I love all the churches that I served, I love all the people that I took care of, uh, and yet I will say I was never what you might call a good Southern Baptist. Um,
Jeremy: badge of honor on this podcast, by the way
Gregory T. Smith: it was, it was never a good fit. Um,
Jeremy: If
Gregory T. Smith: there's an old
Jeremy: Southern Baptist, I don't think we'd be having this conversation, let's put it that way.
Gregory T. Smith: Or the wine.
Jeremy: Or the wine. Yeah, true, it's true
Gregory T. Smith: You know, there, there was that old expression, dance with the one who brung you. And, um, that was the advice that was given to me as I was starting out in ministry. So, uh, I l- like I said, I loved every congregation that I served, uh, but theologically it wasn't always the best fit. Um, but the past 10 years have allowed me to [00:12:00] express, uh, a lot of the things that I was not able to express necessarily when I was in the pulpit.
Jeremy: Funny how that happens, huh?
Gregory T. Smith: right? Or, or the things that maybe if I did express it, it got me in trouble.
Jeremy: Yeah
Gregory T. Smith: Uh, so there were some of those things as well. Uh, so just that freedom to be able to write about the things I wanna write about, uh, to, to talk about the things I wanna talk about, um, that freedom has been tremendous. And I think that the freedom to express those things has actually given me the mental space to be able to think about those things as well.
You know? 'Cause if you, if you can't share what you're feeling, sometimes you end up trying to suppress. It's like, "Well, I'm thinking about this, but I better not go down that path too far."
Jeremy: my gosh, you are describing the tension I hear and over and over again [00:13:00] with, with pastor friends of mine
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: every, every radical idea they entertain comes with an immediate risk, uh, or a cost or a loss or a what is this gonna do? when that is your reality you're living in, it's really hard to let your mind and your imagination go where it
Gregory T. Smith: Right
Jeremy: really hard to even say yes to what the Holy Spirit is doing because you're, you're like, "If I go there, if I entertain that, if I..." know, so when I... I, I don't know if this is your experience. When I stepped away from being a lead pastor, I changed my mind within like the next couple years on a bunch of theologies, and it shocked me.
Like, am I backsliding? Am I going off the rails? And then I realized I was going this way all the time. just had been holding myself back relationally to be with my community
Gregory T. Smith: That is 100% it. Um, so yeah, I would say that, that I have moved further to the left, um, in the [00:14:00] past 10 years. But my, my former church members would s- would, would say probably that I've r- moved radically to the left,
Jeremy: Off the
Gregory T. Smith: it w- off the scale within that period of time. But really, there was a lot of me that was already there.
Jeremy: Угу
Gregory T. Smith: I just couldn't, couldn't really develop it. Um, and I didn't leave ministry because of theology. Um, I, I, I left ministry because of life changes, and geographical changes, and so many other things. Um, but I have been asked, uh, many times if I would consider going back into the pulpit. Um, and I do. I, I'm on the teaching team, uh, at the church that I attend.
We rotate through, but I have zero interest in going back into full-time ministry
Jeremy: I understand that. And I also think, obviously this affects [00:15:00] pastors, but I think just people within a church community, you often are equally bound by the imagination of the community. And a lot of people on a deconstruction journey feel that tension. They realize, "Oh, I'm a little bit over here," or, "I'm a little bit, uh, you know, further along here," or, "I'm asking this question that everyone else... And you realize, "If I keep going with that, I will be out of sync with my community." And that's the loneliness that comes in a lot of these conversations. And so a lot of the work I'm trying to do to- today, along with many others, is create new safe spaces where we can let our imaginations go. We can let the Holy Spirit take us wherever, and we don't risk, "Oh, everyone's gonna turn their back on me if I say I changed my mind on this," right?
Which is a very scary reaction.
Gregory T. Smith: Absolutely. And I would say I w- I was really blessed, uh, all along the way to have good friends, um, who were also pastors in other denominations, and that was... And, and [00:16:00] also my brother, who's a pastor in another denomination. Um, that's a lifesaver because there's, there's a lot of safety in developing those relationships outside of your own box, uh, because, you know, uh, there's always just that concern that if you share a little bit too much, uh, that whatever you shared in terms of your theological musings could cause a ripple effect in your own theological camp.
So, um, having those friendships outside of the denomination, absolutely essential
Jeremy: Yeah, ironically, the people I'm still friends with from my, where I lived, you know, when I was a lead pastor, are not really the people who went to the church. You know, they're
Gregory T. Smith: Угу
Jeremy: I had made friends with outside of that because they weren't as limited by what happened with the church. They're like, "Oh, that's whatever." It was the
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: that like couldn't see beyond that, you know what I mean? And so it's like, oh, okay, this is interesting how, [00:17:00] these relationships work over time, and I get to hear all these kind of stories, you know, week after week in, in these conversations. And I, I love to see how God is moving, breaking out new wine for new wineskins, you know.
It's, it's the whole
Gregory T. Smith: There you go
Jeremy: Okay, so I mentioned that your subtitle is The Way of Love, which everybody, you know, is like, yeah, cool. Your title is where you're gonna turn some heads, right? Jesus and Lao Tzu, not a pairing most Christians are seeing a lot of. I
Gregory T. Smith: Right?
Jeremy: just like maybe the elevator pitch for you, someone who's going, "What the hell is this episode gonna be about?" Give us the where are we going, what's your premise in this book?
Gregory T. Smith: Well, um, thank you. I, I appreciate that. Um, Jesus and Lao Tzu, first of all, most Christians aren't even gonna know the name Lao Tzu. Uh, so that, uh, being part of the title, it's already an obstacle to overcome.
Jeremy: Ja
Gregory T. Smith: But, um, Lao Tzu was a, [00:18:00] uh, Chinese philosopher, poet, um, who, who lived... Mm, he was kind of a semi-legendary figure.
Uh, so y- you could kinda say he lived at a certain time period, uh, kinda not, so anywhere from 600 to 400 years, uh, BCE. Uh, but, um, the way that I kind of approach this is, a- as you've already said, is looking at a peanut butter cup. Um, so in my, in my, uh, preface to the book, I talk about that old Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, uh, commercial, where there's a couple ca- uh, couple cowboys sitting around the campfire.
And they're, they jostle, and one of them, you know, uh, bumps the other one, and one says, "You got your peanut butter in my chocolate." And the other one's looks at him and says, "You got your chocolate in my peanut butter." And then the, the announcer cuts in and says, "Reese's Peanut Butter [00:19:00] Cups, the two great tastes that taste great together."
And that's kind of the premise of the book is, is that you- it's possible to have two things that taste great at the very same time. Uh, but what I'm, what I'm doing with this is I'm not trying to take chocolate and peanut butter, which do taste great together. I'm not trying to throw them in a blender and create chocolate peanut butter.
Like a good peanut butter cup, maybe Reese's, maybe some other kind, a good peanut butter cup is the kind that you can bite into, and you can taste the chocolate, and you can taste the peanut butter at the same time. But just like with your wine and you've said, "Hmm, I'm getting notes of forest floor and cola."
You say, "How in the world are you getting forest floor and cola at the same [00:20:00] time?" Well, that is, you know, that's what I'm doing with the book is holding Jesus and Lao Tzu at the same time without trying to blend them into one, um, one thing and pretend like everything that they said, they agreed on each other, you know, with each other.
Not trying to do that. Um, and I'm also not trying to, um, show how they would argue with each other, but when there are, uh, differences, I'll highlight those things as well.
Jeremy: And I think you're, you're, you're writing an interesting line through this book, the premise. There's an inherent tension there, an inherent balancing act, and from what I can see, I think you're doing a good job. I'm curious what the reactions you're getting. Because, you know, someone could push back and say, "Well, I can go buy a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup because it is a third thing," right?
So it is chocolate, it is peanut butter, but it exists as its third thing. And there are moments where as [00:21:00] I'm, as I'm reading this, I'm like, "This is a third thing." Like, it kinda feels like a third thing, right? But then I keep trying to go back to your premise of like, no, he's not saying it's a third thing. them together, enjoy them together, and it's almost like that's tough for us to do. Like, we want it to be like either it's this or it's this or it's a new thing. even your premise, which again, I have no issue with, but I do... Even as I'm working on this, like, interview, I'm finding myself hesitant to go to that third thing, and I'm like, "No, it's not what he's saying." How have, how have the reactions been? I mean, I know this just came out, but as people are hearing these ideas, do you think they're able to, to hold both of the beauties together, or does it feel really like that third thing is trying to break through?
Gregory T. Smith: That's a really great question. And, uh, to be, to be really honest, I think that it... Yeah, I would agree. It is difficult to hold that balance. In fact, what we're holding is the result [00:22:00] of a lot of editing, uh, and making sure that I'm communicating, uh, as carefully as I possibly can.
Jeremy: early
Gregory T. Smith: in,
Jeremy: wild, that's what you're
Gregory T. Smith: the early drafts, yeah, the early drafts, I was saying stuff like, um, uh, the Dao is another word for specifically, like, for the Holy Spirit or, you know...
And, and I was trying to, you know, mush them. Because in my personal life and practice, th- uh, they, they can, they can get a little, um, wibbly-wobbly, you know, together. Um, but in the, in the, um, the Daoist symbol, the yin yang, some people say ying yang, but it's, it's yin yang. Um, you have black and you have white, and they're swirling together, but there's also a little drop of [00:23:00] white in the black, and there's a little drop of black in the white.
So as they're swirling together, it's not just that the black and white are, are experiencing an interplay. They're, they're experiencing a little bit of like, yeah, there's some of this inside of this. They, they get mixed up. Um, so for me, yeah, yeah, sometimes it- it's a little, it's a little difficult
But that's where mystery comes in. You know, within Christianity, we, we talk a lot about mystery. Uh, i- if we're reading Paul, you know, he likes to use the word mystery. Um, but we're not comfortable with mystery. We, we like to have certainty instead
Jeremy: how can I be certain if you are inviting me to entertain mystery?
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah. Yeah. So we have idolized certainty
Jeremy: Ja
Gregory T. Smith: in the evangelical church, at least. Uh, I think [00:24:00] that the Eastern Church does a much better job. Uh, and when I say Eastern Church, I'm talking about, uh, Eastern Orthodox. I'm also talking about... Yeah. A- and, and also forms of the Christian Church that we find in the East.
Jeremy: Ja
Gregory T. Smith: they kinda just do a better job of, of accepting mystery than we do in Western evangelicalism that, that many of us came from
Jeremy: All right, so let's flirt with the resis together. How
Gregory T. Smith: right.
Jeremy: I wanna get into
Gregory T. Smith: Sounds good
Jeremy: you had, some phrasings that I thought were intriguing to explore Christianity with this other pairing built in. I, I wanna... before we dive into the c- some of the concepts though, I, I still wanna make sure we get listeners realizing the beautiful premise you're inviting us to, 'cause I think there is something here. One of the lines I loved, you said this: "The modern Western Christian urge to overpower, to [00:25:00] force outcomes, to be seen as right and strong, is a disease that runs counter to the spirit of Christ." Damn, dude, that's a sentence right there for the highlighter.
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: listeners to this podcast in particular, left church because of control, because of certainty, because of these things that you're talking about. Why does Lao Tzu matter to them?
Gregory T. Smith: I think Lao Tzu matters to them because he gives us permission to to just rest in that, um
I, I hate to keep using the word mystery, but to just, to rest in the unknown, to rest in, in the, the I am-ness of the divine. Now, Lao Tzu never used the word I am. Uh, his word, his word, [00:26:00] uh, is Tao, and Tao means the way. And he never tries to define the Tao or the way. Uh, in fact, he says that the Tao that can be described or defined is not the eternal Tao.
So what that means is once you start trying to take the Tao and put it in a box and, and say, "Here's exactly what it is," as soon as you do that, you've lost the Tao. You've lost the eternal Tao.
Jeremy: It's kind of
Gregory T. Smith: our, our-
Jeremy: Once you start measuring it, it changes
Gregory T. Smith: Yes. Yes. Um, our, our Buddhist, uh, uh, relatives would say, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."
And what they mean by that is you can't meet the Buddha, uh, or, or you can't, you can't [00:27:00] encapsulate the Buddha. Um, you know, or once you think that you have achieved some kind of enlightenment, you've missed it, 'cause then you're walking around going, "Oh, I'm enlightened," you know? Uh, yeah, found it. So this is why in, in the Book of, of Exodus when Moses encounters God, he says in- to the burning bush, "Who shall I say to Pharaoh is sending me?"
And God says, "I am." And, and we could, we could talk a long time about the Hebrew and, and everything that that means. I won't get into the exact Hebrew words, but the better translation would be, "I am existence itself." Uh, sometimes it's translated as, "I am the self-existent one." Or I saw one translation that said, "I am being-ness."
I am being-ness. Um, in other words, I am in this [00:28:00] present moment. I am eternal presence. And once you try to, uh, you know, catch the wind- You're gonna find that you can't catch the wind, you know? It's like trying to, to hold water in your hand. If you grasp it too tightly, it runs through your fingers. Um, so in, I think in, in Western Christianity, evangelicalism in particular, we just love that certainty, and we get told you can't have it both ways, you know, in all kinds of things, you know?
So you can't have ... Oh, you ... Oh, here's one. You must be a literal seven-day or a six-day creationist,
Jeremy: Must be a
Gregory T. Smith: you know?
Jeremy: of things
Gregory T. Smith: Right. Right. So what ... Yeah. We, we, we'll use creationism as a, as an example. Um, and I've heard Christian teachers, fundamentalist Christian teachers say, uh, "You must be a literal six-day creationist because [00:29:00] if that is not true, then nothing is true."
And so what they've really done is they've built their faith on this house of cards And then kids go to school and they, they, you know, they learn biology or they learn, uh, geology or they learn, you know, quantum physics or whatever, and they come back and they're going, "Ah, I don't know what to do. I have to leave Christianity behind now And with mystery, with, with our ability to accept mystery also comes the ability to say, "Hmm, I can hold science and faith at the same time."
Um, so I think that that's, that's one example of what we can do with it. Uh, it's, it's not... This is not all just about Jesus and Lao Tzu. This is about a lot of things that, that could seem, uh, contradictory or could seem ironic or whatever, [00:30:00] that, no, it- it's possible to, to kinda be both. Um, gender studies.
Jeremy: Hmm,
Gregory T. Smith: Gender studies would tell us the same thing, right? Uh, the traditional o- binary idea of you're, you're either this or you're that. And now we're beginning to understand, well, there's a whole spectrum of things that you can be, and sometimes you can even be more than one thing at the same time. So yeah, we, we need to let go of our stinking urge to control everything and understand everything, and just say, "There, there is such a thing as mystery
Jeremy: Well, and I think that's
Gregory T. Smith: that we-"
Jeremy: byproducts of someone interacting with your work here would be that. So not, uh, n- not even where they land on all of the, the Dao stuff, but just the idea of the way I engage my faith can incorporate more [00:31:00] mystery, should incorporate more mystery, should have more of these things that I go, "Yeah, that is hard to explain, and yet...
You know, and yet there's some beauty here of this." You have this quote, you say that you have been looking for the places where their views clash, uh, of these two ideas, and where they quietly come together in ways that both surprise and reassure me. So that got me thinking. What i- like give us an example of something that a Christian would go, "That's a beautiful overlap with Christianity.
Love it." And then what's one that maybe has surprised you that the typical Christian would go, "Wait, what? I'm gonna have to go think about that"?
Gregory T. Smith: One overlap, and there's a lot of them, um, that, that are in the book, but I think one of them is the idea, the, the Christian concept of kenosis or emptying. So what is kenosis? Kenosis means that, uh, for example, Jesus emptied himself. Uh, that, you know, here's [00:32:00] Jesus, um, the pre- the pre-incarnate Christ. We'll, we'll say that.
And that this pre-incarnate Christ, who is by the way, much bigger and much more mysterious and much more cosmic than anything we might know as the, the person called Jesus of Nazareth. But we have the, the Christ principle some might even say, or the cosmic Christ, who empties himself to take on, as John chapter one would say, you know, uh, the Word, the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us.
How did the Word become flesh? By the way, in, in the, um, in the ancient or the old Canton Bible, this is the Chinese Bible as it's translated when it says that, that the Word became flesh or, or in the beginning was the Word. It translate that word Word [00:33:00] into, into Chinese, it translates it as Tao.
Jeremy: Oh, really?
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah. So in the beginning was the Tao
Jeremy: Уф
Gregory T. Smith: Um, yeah.
So they knew what they were doing, too. They, they, they saw this. They saw this. Um, but so here's, here's the Tao, the Word, emptying itself, you know, shedding divine privilege, shedding, um, w- you know, everything that we can think of. Uh, if, if you believe in a, a literal heaven, you would say that Jesus stepped out of heaven to live on Earth, that kind of thing.
Um, but He emptied himself to be, to take on this human flesh and to, uh, bleed and poop and drink good wine and, you know, all, all the things, right? So that emptying, Christians understand that and we embrace that, uh, and [00:34:00] Taoism does as well. Uh, Lao Tzu talks a lot about emptying. He, he says, um, "If, if you hold a cup," uh, like the only reason that I was able to put any wine in this cup at all is because it was empty.
And you, you can't... You know, and you've heard the phrase, you can't pour from a, a, an empty cup, but you can't pour into an empty cup either. Uh, so that emptiness becomes important. So the, this Christian idea of kenosis or self-emptying means that we become available to God, uh, to, to manifest in our lives.
Uh, Lao Tzu said it's, you know, the sp- the, there's a wheel, but it's that emptiness in the hub of the wheel that, that holds it all together. Uh, or, uh, he talks about a bellows, you know, that you would use to, to pump, um, [00:35:00] a fire. And he said i- if that bellows doesn't have vacuity inside of it, it can't do its job.
There, there must be that empty space. And so we need to also practice kenosis. We need to have that empty space in our lives, whether that's through prayer, contemplative prayer for me is fantastic, uh, meditation. Um, whether that's means emptying ourselves of the constant desire to fill our lives with more and more things.
Um, whether that means shedding our, our need to have people, um, admire us. Whatever that is, is that kenosis. So I think Christians and Taoists would, would absolutely, uh, kind of groove together on that.
Jeremy: I think you're safe on that one. What's a, what's
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah.
Jeremy: one?
Gregory T. Smith: A riskier one, one that they don't necessarily agree on. Um, [00:36:00] I, I wanna touch on two risky ones. If you wanna pr- press into either, either of those, you can.
Um, uh, one is practical and one's more philosophical, theological. So the practical one is, uh, I, I believe that Jesus was much more of a pacifist, like, you know, like a real pacifist. Um, whereas Lao Tzu was ... I mean, hi- his goal was to teach young noble people. You know, like as, as they're children, they're growing up, they read his works, and they're eventually gonna become rulers one day, and war is a necessary thing.
Um, so Lao Tzu was teaching, uh, young rulers. And so his teaching was, if you're gonna do battle, you go into battle and do the least amount of harm that is possible to achieve your result. [00:37:00] Uh, he didn't say, you know, "Turn the other cheek." Um, but he did say, "Be as peaceful as you can, and as you're going into that battle, you should have the mindset that you are, you are presiding over a funeral," you know, "And you should honor your enemies."
Uh, so Jesus would say, "Love your enemies." I think Lao Tzu, uh, might, might say, uh, "Honor your enemies." Um, so that's a practical difference. They're, they're kind of on the same page, but I, I think that Jesus goes farther than Lao Tzu does
Jeremy: so let's dig into this 'cause I have, I, as I have a follow-up
Gregory T. Smith: Okay
Jeremy: you got there. So you had a... You had some sections where you get into the differences there, and I was very intrigued with this because at one, on, on one level, I really liked view of, "Hey, let's bring this way back," you know, and I'm like, "Yes," like that...
The world would be better, right?
Gregory T. Smith: Угу[00:38:00]
Jeremy: checked that and we weren't just starting wars for fun.
Gregory T. Smith: Right
Jeremy: like if you were living in a country that did that, right? So that would be better. But I am a follower of Jesus, which has caused me to become committed to the way of non-violence because of Jesus, not because it's the most practical belief out there, but I think this is what Jesus models, and this is the way of Jesus as I understand it. you had this quote. You said, "So if you're going to follow the way of love, don't use violence at all or use it sparingly at most." Right? It was kind
Gregory T. Smith: Угу
Jeremy: think, your, like, summary phrases of that idea. again, I love it on one level. Where I then go though, and as you know, the sparingly is very subjective.
Gregory T. Smith: It is
Jeremy: man saying, "This is me holding back," is another man saying, "No, you're not. You could do way less than that." And then I think that's how you get just war theory, right? Where we're [00:39:00] gonna, we're gonna tell you how far is okay, and in my theological experience, just war theory and its credentials are bullshit.
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah.
Jeremy: That's my official take on that.
Gregory T. Smith: I agree with you 100%.
Jeremy: I think that's the problem I have within this Daoist view is I like the heart behind it, but it really is no different than I would say mainstream evangelical Christianity with its just war theory. Do you see that the same way, or do you think it's n- more nuanced?
Gregory T. Smith: I would say in... Yeah, th-th-that's, that's a difficult question. Um, first of all, I probably should have written that sentence backwards. So I probably should have said, "Do as little harm as possible, and it's better if you do none," you know, rather than the way that I wrote it, which wa- which was, "Don't do any harm, but
Jeremy: it
Gregory T. Smith: maybe a, but maybe a little," you know?
So I probably should have written that [00:40:00] s- yeah, may- I sh- maybe I should have written that sentence backwards, but yeah, next edit. Uh, I, so I appreciate you pointing that out. Um, yeah, I, I would say that, um, modern evangelicalism is not even following just- the just war theory now. Um,
Jeremy: yeah, for real
Gregory T. Smith: uh, yeah, I mean, I disagree with just war theory, uh, like you, but I would say, fricking left it behind altogether.
It's just like, whatever's in our interest, we're gonna do it. Um, you know, is there oil in Venezuela? Let's just go take it. Um,
Jeremy: benefit.
Gregory T. Smith: for, yeah, just, just for the b- or, or, or, you know, there's, there's a whole lot of Reeses or up- uh, Reeses. Re-
Jeremy: Maybe metaphorically there
Gregory T. Smith: maybe- That's right, there's a whole lot of Reeses. Uh, up resources up there in Canada, let's make it the 51st state.
Um, so I, while I disagree with the just war theory, I, I think that evangelicalism [00:41:00] has even left that behind. Um, I think that the just war theory, and maybe I'm giving it too much credit, I would like f- I would like for it to be true that the just war theory is kind of similar to the original intent of an eye for an eye, right?
The original intent of an eye for an eye was You have the right to go up to and including taking that other person's eye because of the eye that they took from you. But you cannot cross that line and, and take two eyes, you know? That was the original intent of, of the eye for an eye expression. I think that that's kind of where the just war theory is going, but Jesus takes it further than that,
Jeremy: further
Gregory T. Smith: you know?
Um, so Jesus says, "Go to the cross rather than take up the sword." Um, Jesus says, [00:42:00] "Become the servant rather than wear the crown." Um, and that's completely upending what modern evangelicalism would say when it tries to embrace the crown, uh, and put other people on the cross. Oh, that sounds good.
Jeremy: Write that down
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah, I gotta write that down.
Um, so I, yeah, I think that Jesus and Lao Tzu would not, would not totally agree on that. Lao Tzu is coming close, uh, to what Jesus is saying, but he's writing ... But he, again, the context is different as well, and w- and we do have to acknowledge that the context is different, um, that Lao Tzu is writing for rulers whose job it is to run armies.
So what would Lao Tzu have done or said different if, if, if he, if he had a different audience? Don't know
Jeremy: Yeah. Okay, what was your second one?
Gregory T. Smith: The theological, uh, one that [00:43:00] is problematic for a lot of people, and it, and it may be where a lot of the, uh, Christian readers could have some hangups, is that, uh, Jesus talks about Abba, Father. Jesus has a very intimate relationship with God. Um, in his Jewish upbringing, he, he w- he has been taught to pray, uh, "Blessed art thou, O Lord our God, king of the universe."
You know, this is the Jewish, um, way of, of thinking about God as the ruler of the universe. But Jesus wants to crawl up in God's lap and call him Daddy, which is absolutely beautiful. Um, Lao Tzu does not believe in a god. So the, the Tao is not a, a deity. Uh, the Tao is closer to, you know... And my apologies to, to all the Star Wars fans, you know, but, uh, o- of which I am one.[00:44:00]
Uh, but the Tao is closer to the Force. In fact, when George Lucas was creating Star Wars, Taoism is something that he leaned very, very heavily on. Um, I don't think he did a good job at it. In fact, I think he did a horrible job at it. Um, but the, the concept of the Force being this energy field that surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together, that is really hard to swallow for a lot of Christians, who would say, "No, no, no, we have a trinity, and every person of the trinity is very personal."
God the Father, and when we think of God the Father, we're thinking of, uh, you know, some dude in the sky with a beard. And Jesus, well, we can put our finger on Jesus 'cause he's this human. Uh, Holy Spirit is a little harder to, to grasp. Um, I love William Paul Young's depiction of, of Papa in The Shack. Um, that, [00:45:00] that was really influential to me, uh, and has been
Jeremy: a lot of Christians didn't like that
Gregory T. Smith: A lot of Christians did not like that.
Jeremy: That
Gregory T. Smith: he, he
Jeremy: controversial at the time
Gregory T. Smith: yeah, yeah. He left a lot of mystery, and Christians don't like mystery. Uh, you know, you like to have it all wrapped up in a bow. Um, so
Jeremy: They
Gregory T. Smith: the idea,
Jeremy: of God as a woman. That
Gregory T. Smith: you know, God or a Black woman, right? Uh, and the Holy Spirit was depicted as,
Jeremy: As an
Gregory T. Smith: as a- an Asian woman, right? Uh, or when God did appear as a man, God beyond, beyond Jesus, uh, when Papa did show up as a man, it was as a, a Native American man.
You know? So Paul Young is constantly trying to upend our presuppositions. Um, but yeah, I think that that's gonna be some pushback from some Christians [00:46:00] who are like, "No, no, we have this personal God." And the answer to that is yes, we do But God is also transpersonal. Now, I'm not saying impersonal, I'm saying transpersonal, um, beyond personal.
So we have, we have a lot of images of God, uh, throughout the scripture that are like, God is a rock. God is living water. Um, God is... And we get these nebulous kind of philosophical concepts like, God is the one in whom we live and move and have our being, you know? And Jesus prays that great prayer, uh, may, may, may you be in me, and me in you, and them in me, and us in them, and it, it's, it, it all becomes very wibbly-wobbly at that point.
Um, you know, it's, it- it's, it's God in everything and [00:47:00] everything in God. And we do have some scriptures that support this, this idea that God is not just a person in the sky, but God is this, this transpersonal essence, um, this, this divine presence that runs in and through, above and below all things. Um, so a lot of Christians who would have an objection to the Dao I would come back to them and s- and challenge them, you need to read your Bible more.
Because we have both in scripture, and the, this is our ability. We have to be able to hold both at the same time and accept and embrace the mystery, which is why I think, and a- again, not saying the Holy Spirit is the Dao But one of the nice things about Holy Spirit is that we don't have this human image.
We don't have the f- a [00:48:00] father or a son. We have the Holy Ghost, right? Just this essence, the mighty rushing wind. And that comes closer, I'm not saying the Holy Spirit is the Tao, but it comes closer to, to a Christian being able to kind of understand what it means for God to not necessarily always be a person
Jeremy: Okay, so let's, let's dig into this, 'cause I love this. You, you talk r- i-i-in this book about the Trinity, about Trinity language, about how this overlaps. Just o-on a personal note, the Trinity has been something I have been thinking a lot about lately, rethinking a lot of the Trinity, and exploring the ways that I grew up understanding the Trinity, and how I think I need to challenge that, go deeper with that.
And so I've really been making room, to use the word we've been using, for mystery with the Trinity. Like, what does this really look like to have a more robust understanding? did a, a, a podcast series on a different [00:49:00] podcast where I went through the entire Book of John, and literally verse by verse. And one of the things I noticed as I did it recently, 'cause I've done this before, but I noticed how often Jesus referred to the Father being greater than he is. And I just, every time I'd read it, I'm like, "There are so many of these," and it really disrupts the traditional reading of Trinity. Like, there's some other thing happening here, right?
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: when I was intrigued by the way you handle the Trinity, uh, you, you say this: the Bible itself does, hold Trinitarian language somewhat loosely. different chapters, I may use Tao instead of Holy Spirit in one paragraph, then use the same word Tao to point to Christ or to the Source, Divine Parent, in another." So I'm curious, how has the Tao and all of this, how has it helped you? Not just as another way. How has it helped you make space for a divine, mysterious, robust [00:50:00] Trinitarian theology of your own?
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah. Well, um, so your question , how has it helped me to make space for a robust, divine,
Jeremy: Trinitarian theology of
Gregory T. Smith: theology of my own?
Jeremy: I didn't
Gregory T. Smith: Ah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I will not say that I'm not a Trinitarian. Um, but I will say, uh, just like I was a really bad Southern Baptist, I'm a really bad Trinitarian. Um- Because I think that while the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a b- is a, a beautiful depiction of who God is, I don't think it's the only depiction of who God is.
Um, so I do, as a Christian, uh, my native language is Christianity. You know, I... This is how I learned to express my understanding of and relationship with God. And I've had [00:51:00] visionary experiences, uh, which, uh, you know, uh, were Trinitarian in nature, you know? So there's, there's Father, Son and Holy Spirit in this visionary experience.
Um, but also understanding that God's not just that helps me to embrace other human beings as well. It, it helps me to not build walls. Uh, it, it helps me to realize that it's not for me to determine whether somebody else is a true believer or not, whether they claim to be a Christian. Um, it's not for me to determine whether their Christianity's good enough, or whether they claim to be a, a Buddhist or a Wiccan or a, a, you know, a Zoroastrian or whatever.
Uh, it's just not for me to address whether or not their faith is valid. So embracing that mystery, um, and, and even saying, "Look, I don't even get my faith." [00:52:00] Um, even, even the Trinity. If you're a true Tri- like, if you're a classical Trinitarian, I'm not sure there is such a thing as a classical Trinitarian, 'cause there's so many different kinds of Trinitarianism, but if you're a classical Trinitarianism, you by nature are embracing mystery if you're good at it.
Like, if you really believe the Trinity, how can there be three in one and one in three? So there's mystery in there, and, and you have to... You gotta give up on that certainty
Jeremy: Yeah, and what's interesting to me on this subject in particular, you know, if you would have asked me, I don't know, even 10 years ago, "Is a belief in the Trinity a- an essential part of Christianity?" would have said yes. You know what I mean? It, it was like, of
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: or else you're following something else. If you asked me that today, I'd, I don't think I would say yes. I'd be like, no, I think that that is a very common way of understanding God. It's a very [00:53:00] common way that Christians h- historically have made sense of God. But I agree with you. It's not the only way to make sense of God, and even if you say that is the way, there's a bazillion nuances to then how you make sense and how you see those three pieces working together
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah. Well, and, and to go back to my quote that you read, uh, I, I talk about, you know, a- as the Bible also does,
Jeremy: I
Gregory T. Smith: I hold Trinitarian loosely. Because the Bible never cl- never clearly spells out a doctrine of the Trinity, and we like to walk around pretending like there is something like that. Um, I, I've come t-
Jeremy: did not believe in
Gregory T. Smith: Mm-hmm.
Right. I have come to appoint myself of saying while I absolutely am a Jesus follower If we define Christian as someone who adopts all the creeds, um, and has a, an [00:54:00] orthodox view of everything as dictated by, uh, you know, somebody at some council 1,500 years ago,
Jeremy: white guy
Gregory T. Smith: yeah. Like, no, I'm not that, but I absolutely am a follower of Jesus.
Jeremy: I think that's a
Gregory T. Smith: So
Jeremy: of what do we think it means to, to be a follower of Jesus.
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah, I think so
Jeremy: I've never resonated the creeds. The older I get, the less I resonate with the creeds, I'm like, it- 'cause the creeds are literally trying to remove all sense of mystery. I mean, it's like we're gonna define it, you are gonna quote this, and this is the line, right?
And you're
Gregory T. Smith: Угу
Jeremy: and to me it just obliterates the beauty and the paradox and the mystery, and it's like, no, let's make room for a wilder understanding. I was curious, uh, to see what you did with the idea of karma in this because I... And I don't know if this has been your experience. I think most Christians [00:55:00] believe in karma.
Gregory T. Smith: Aha
Jeremy: realize they believe in karma, and they don't realize that karma isn't a part of Christianity. You know what I mean? It's like, hey, if you're getting that peace, you didn't get it from here. Like, you got it from somewhere else, right?
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: of times I'll hear people say like, "You know, what goes around comes around, da, da, da, da," and I'm like, "You know you're arguing karma right now."
They're like, "Okay." I'm like, "Well, just so you know, that's not a Christian belief. Like, you're, you've brought that in." you have this line, I'm curious, uh, this is where you go with this. You say, "The things we do in this world have impact. Call it karma if you will. Name it the law of reciprocity if you prefer. Sowing and reaping sounds better to some. No matter how you label it, every great belief system shares the same concept. What we send into the world tends to return to us." Okay. I agree with everything you wrote there, but here's my question. On a bigger theological level, do you see the [00:56:00] cross as an interruption to this?
Gregory T. Smith: Hmm. That's a really great, great-
Jeremy: the scapegoat mechanism, you know, all these things that we see, these are the systems that run, and then what I have made sense of the cross is, the cross is the spoke in the wheel. That the system that we have gotten used to doesn't work anymore once the cross enters the picture
Gregory T. Smith: I have in, in some other things that I've written, I have talked about that. Um, and I've talked about how, uh, the cross is Jesus absorbing that karma. Uh, I'm not sure that I would put it that way anymore. I, I know that I've written that at some point. Um, here's what I, here's what I ultimately believe happened at the cross.
Um, I... And, and, and don't let me off the hook 'cause I, I'm really trying to get away from talking about karma. Uh, but so, so we can [00:57:00] get back to it, but here's what I think happened at the cross. Um, it's really easy for me to forgive you if you, if we're in a crowd and you jostle and bump into me. "Oh, sorry, man."
"Oh, it's okay." You know, and we'd just go on. It's a little harder for me to forgive you if you intentionally, hmm, you know, shoulder check me It's even harder for me to forgive you if you, um, stab me. It's even harder for me to forgive you if you rip the flesh off my back and nail me to a cross And it was from that position that Jesus declared, "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they're doing."
So it's from that ultimate position of having been offended. Now, the, the frequent thing that [00:58:00] we like to say happened at the cross is that Jesus... Is that God laid all the sin of the world on Jesus, or that Jesus took the sin of the world, um, maybe almost in the karmic sense. You know, that, that there's this, there's this, uh, spiritual, um, storm cloud that we have created and, and that Jesus said, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna receive that instead of you, and I'm gonna receive the wrath of God instead of you."
I don't see it that way anymore. I, I don't think Jesus took the karma of the world upon himself on the cross. But what I do think that Jesus did is he took the worst that we could dish out. He took the worst that humanity could even begin to invent, and it was from that position that he declared forgiveness.
So, um, did Jesus do [00:59:00] something metaphysical on the cross where Jesus, um, kind of like had a divine gotcha? You know, like, oh, you know, Satan thought he had you guys and, but I've got you instead. Um, I, I'm not so sure anymore about that. Um, but I do think that Jesus's, uh, experience of the cross was salvific.
Jesus declared that forgiveness from the place of the greatest, um, harm, and demonstrated that we can do the same thing.
Jeremy: So I
Gregory T. Smith: For, for those of us who, uh, yeah-
Jeremy: Well, that's what I'm getting at with my question, is not from a penal substitutionary atonement point of view
Gregory T. Smith: Right
Jeremy: accomplish something and, you know, God's not mad anymore, but more from a humanist point of view. Did he invite us into a different way of life [01:00:00] and model something that breaks karma? It breaks any sense of reciprocity There is no karma with the cross is what I guess I'm saying, right?
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah.
Jeremy: you enter into that way, it disrupts any reciprocity of anything
Gregory T. Smith: it disrupts our need to be the vehicle of that reciprocity. Um, you know, if, if I know that I am forgiven from the cross, then I've got, I've got no, um, I've got nothing in my quiver to shoot, you know? Like, Jesus empties my quiver. His, his manifestation of divine love and then his invitation for me to live that way of love means that I have to lay down all my weapons.
So something radical has, has taken place at the cross, and what... But I think that what, what has changed, I can't remember who said it now, um, that, [01:01:00] that the cross doesn't change God's view of us. It changes our view of God. Um, the radical change is that we become followers of the way. In fact, that's, that's what the early church was called is followers of the way.
Uh, the Dao happens to be called the way, so that's not intentional, but it, it fits. Um, and if we are followers of the way, it means that that way of love that Jesus manifested is gonna be our way. So how, how can we, um, how can we then practice violence against our neighbor? How can we sanction those who do practice violence against their neighbor or commit violence on our behalf, you know?
Um, and I don't think we can. I think we have to be radically [01:02:00] changed
Jeremy: I love that. A- all right, one more quote, and then we're gonna go into closing with some questions I like to ask each guest. But I saved your, your, your biggest hot take quote that I found for the last one, okay? been, I've been warming you up for this one, getting you, getting
Gregory T. Smith: All right
Jeremy: some wine in your system.
Gregory T. Smith: Do I need a refill?
Jeremy: All right, so here's what you wrote. Uh, I think this is great. "A person does not need to give their heart to Jesus any more than a flower needs to decide to open itself to the morning sun.
Gregory T. Smith: Yes
Jeremy: an act of will so much as an act of nature. The entire universe gets its energy through the Tao's love without that source demanding people become its followers."
Gregory T. Smith: Hmm.
Jeremy: Gregory, is a
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: today. What does this mean for someone choosing to follow the way of Jesus?
Gregory T. Smith: [01:03:00] Well, um, I think the first thing that it means is that, um... Well, I'm a universalist, uh, I'll, so I'll just, I'll just say it that way. Yeah, so it, it means that there's nobody who is so bad that they escape God's love. Um, it's, uh, th- there's nobody whose sin is so great that, that, um, that God's grace doesn't reach.
Um, it means that
Well, the, the analogy of the morning sun, and by the way, I had a, a wonderful professor, uh, who's passed away now, uh, in seminary, uh, uh, Glen Hinson, and he prayed on a, on a regular basis, uh, "God, we open ourselves to you like a flower to the morning sun." So that was... I have to give, I have to give credit [01:04:00] to, to him for that line.
Um,
We are naturally drawn to that divine source We come from that source and we're gonna return to that source Ki- I, I'm mixing metaphors here, so I apologize for mixing metaphors, but like the water cycle You might start as a drop in the ocean And then you evaporate and you're, you're in a cloud over here someplace, and y- you might have forgotten that you're part of the ocean, and you're just floating around and, and then you g- you rain, and then you get all dirty and you're muddy and, and you're like, "Oh, I got all this sin all over me," and like, you know, whatever you call that, that mud or that dirt or that, you know, it's the worldly, uh, stuff or it's the flesh or however we, we like to term that.
And we [01:05:00] like to think that that is something that separates us from God. And it can't possibly separate us from God because we are a drop of the ocean. And eventually we're gonna make our way back to the ocean. And maybe when we get to the ocean, we're gonna throw our water drop arms wide open and, and we're gonna say, "Ah, I'm so glad that you took me back."
And the ocean's gonna say, "You were never gone." So I think that that, that's kind of what I'm getting at there, is that we are one with this divine source anyway. I think that's what Jesus meant when Jesus called God Papa or Daddy or Abba, is Jesus is basically calling God the source And acknowledging, like, we're, we're all part of each other.
This is the [01:06:00] prayer that he prayed for the disciples, you know, uh, we're all one. Let them know that we're all one
Jeremy: Ja
Gregory T. Smith: And there is no separation. So I think that's where I was going with that
Jeremy: Love it. Great response to the hot take.
Gregory T. Smith: Thanks
Jeremy: wrap up with some questions we love to ask each guest, and we get to
Gregory T. Smith: Угу
Jeremy: answers to everyone else. Start with a couple wine ones. If I
Gregory T. Smith: OK
Jeremy: glass of wine you've ever had in your life, there a story that
Gregory T. Smith: Ah!
Jeremy: to mind? What were you drinking? Where were you? Who were you with? Anything that comes to mind. I love hearing people's favorite glass of wine
Gregory T. Smith: Well, I have heard, uh, some of your guests, uh, 'cause I've listened to multiple episodes, and some of your guests will go, "It's this glass right now, Jeremy, the one that I'm sharing with you."
Jeremy: say that.
Gregory T. Smith: Suck ups.[01:07:00]
Oh, but I, I don't, I don't know that I have one glass... Well, I can't tell you what the wine was. Um, but I, I will tell you that, um, I was on this amazing, uh, date, uh, with the woman that I'm now married to, and we went to this place that was called The Mansion, uh, in South Boston, Virginia. Uh, tiny little place.
Uh, but there's this old mansion, uh, that got turned into a restaurant, and I was, I was in the community where I was serving as a pastor of a Baptist church, and I freaking got a glass of wine on this date. And we, you know, like, we used to joke that a pastor ha-
Jeremy: of town
Gregory T. Smith: right? A pastor ha- uh... We used to joke that a pastor has to go two ZIP codes away before he can buy alcohol.
So, um, it was actually, [01:08:00] it, it was all tied up in the fact that we were on this date together, the relationship was new, we were in a beautiful location, but it also had to do with the fact that I was beginning to let go of, of the stricture that was there. And I said, "I am in the community where I am serving as a pastor, and I'm gonna have a glass of wine, and I'm gonna hold both of those at the same time."
Jeremy: Love it.
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: That's a great answer, Gregory.
Gregory T. Smith: Thanks. Appreciate that.
Jeremy: that
Gregory T. Smith: I worked really hard on it
Jeremy: Well done, sir. You nailed it. right, which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you, and who would you not trust, and why?
Gregory T. Smith: Oh my gosh. Oh
Jeremy: Most
Gregory T. Smith: Who would I...
Jeremy: one first.
Gregory T. Smith: Who... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I've probably had too much wine 'cause I'm forgetting the, the d- the individual's name. Who was the one who [01:09:00] castrated himself?
Jeremy: Oh, um, uh, was it I-
Gregory T. Smith: I,
Jeremy: Irenaeus.
Gregory T. Smith: I wanna say Ambrose or it's not Ambrose. I- that dude. That dude, that's who I, you know, that's
Jeremy: you wine or not bring
Gregory T. Smith: This, I am not touching his wine.
Jeremy: S-
Gregory T. Smith: It's like you're gonna do
Jeremy: that Origin?
Gregory T. Smith: Origin, that's who it was. He is the origin of that story.
Jeremy: that reason. Someone said, "If you're doing that,
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: not asking you to bring me wine. Like,
Gregory T. Smith: Yep.
Jeremy: my guy
Gregory T. Smith: That is absolutely it for me. Um, who, whose wine am I gonna drink? And I'm not gonna Jesus juke you and say Jesus, 'cause he makes the best wine. 'Cause if you've had any guests who have said that, um, they're sucking up as well, just
Jeremy: ever had a guest say Jesus
Gregory T. Smith: but who? Let's see Da- I'm stumped by that one. Um I [01:10:00] want, but I'll tell you who I wanna drink a glass of wine with.
So this would have nothing to do... Yeah, I want to have a really great conversation with Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Jeremy: that would be phenomenal. He'd probably wanna do beer, but yeah, if you could get
Gregory T. Smith: Probably. I could do beer with him too. So I'll drink whatever he wants to drink. I'll keep buying him until he spills it and, and tells me all the things that I wanna hear.
Jeremy: Oh
Gregory T. Smith: But
Jeremy: would be, that would be a phenomenal conversation
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah. So that has nothing to do with my trust in his ability to pick a good wine, but, um, that's who I wanna sit down and drink some wine with.
Jeremy: Love it. What is
Gregory T. Smith: We'll talk about violence
Jeremy: Yeah, seriously, let's unpack some things.
Gregory T. Smith: Mm-hmm
Jeremy: What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Gregory T. Smith: Não
Oh, so there are so many things. Um, I believe that I can confidently say, um, not, I, I, I'm not gonna say, [01:11:00] "Oh, I don't think I believe in hell anymore." I'm just saying like, "Hell no," is what I'm saying. So yeah, that's something I used to believe. Like I, I remember preaching sermons where, you know, I, I told my congregation, "Look, you know, there's people out there dying and going to hell, and, and you guys are not out there trying to evangelize them 24/7, so you're falling asleep on the job, and, and, you know, you're shitty Christians," or whatever.
You know, like, um, I, I believed that. I believed that- that hell was the, this- this real thing that- that God created and was gonna put people in. Um- And that causes so much trauma. Um, oh my goodness. Like, what do we believe that God is? What does that say about who we think God is, that God would create a place called hell?
And people, people will defend God and say, "Oh, but God didn't [01:12:00] create hell for people." God, it- the Bible specifically says, "Created for the devil and his angels." You know? Yeah. If, if people are gonna go there and God knows everything, it, it's all the same. So who do we think God is? Is, is God... That makes God an absolute monster.
Um, so that's something that I deconstructed a long time ago, um, this idea that God's gonna send people to hell.
Jeremy: Good
Gregory T. Smith: and I, and I, this... I'm so confident about that. Like, I, I don't say I, I hope I'm right. I just like, know.
Jeremy: Yeah, reading David Bentley Hart changed the way I talked about hell and heaven, and just finally like, "No, I don't, I don't think there's any reason to that. It's, it's monstrous."
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah. Yeah I learned more about theology from [01:13:00] parenting, I think, than I ever did from seminary. And there's, there's absolutely no level on the, uh, you know, where, where I would take one of my own children who I love
Jeremy: Right?
Gregory T. Smith: a- and throw them in a fire.
Jeremy: ' Cause they chose poorly
Gregory T. Smith: Right. Like, it's, that's just stupid
Jeremy: I use parenting analogies so often because it's one of the easiest ways to show people that their views of God are horrific.
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: I'm gonna take this thing that you believe about God, I'm gonna apply it to a, a dad, and
Gregory T. Smith: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy: me what you think of that dad, you know? And they're
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: It's like, yeah, that's what you think God is.
Like, it's awful.
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: So yeah, that's good. What's something blowing your mind right now that you're learning?
Gregory T. Smith: It's a lot of work writing a book.
Jeremy: Yeah
Gregory T. Smith: Um, I have, I have so much more respect. Uh, this is my first book, so, [01:14:00] um, I have so much more respect for those who do this on an ongoing basis and, and keep churning out one book after another, especially for those who have day jobs, and also keep writing one book after another.
Um, so I, yeah, I'm learning. Um, so how does that pertain to myself? Um, I'll, I'll be real vulnerable here for just a moment, and I'll, and I'll say this is something that I'm learning. I'm learning that I can write a pretty, pretty good book about Daoism, but learning to live that, that's, that's the challenge.
Because writing a book when you have a day job, it's just, it's exhausting. And the book is all about balance, right? And, and I, I even-- like I've got chapters in this book all about, uh, you know, people who are just driven and have to just go, go, go all the time, and I am learning that I need to give myself some space.[01:15:00]
So
Jeremy: Don't you
Gregory T. Smith: yeah. The--
Jeremy: material
Gregory T. Smith: know.
Jeremy: you?
Gregory T. Smith: Ah, dang it.
Jeremy: Yeah, that's Every, every good preacher knows that feeling of like, "Man,
Gregory T. Smith: Угу
Jeremy: talked about this," or, "I just wrote this, and
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah.
Jeremy: need to do a better job of it."
Gregory T. Smith: Gotta listen to my own sermon
Jeremy: that, uh, Andy Stanley is a famous, uh, pastor, and he has a line that I always r- think of. like, "Preach from your weaknesses, and you'll never run out of material." I'd
Gregory T. Smith: That's good.
Jeremy: of like, yeah,
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: I'm learning, this is what I'm not good at, this is what God is
Gregory T. Smith: Mm-hmm.
Jeremy: you know? It's like,
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: you write about that, you'll have material for the rest of your life
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah. I, I used to, uh, read and listen to a lot of Andy Stanley 10 years ago. You asked me about 10 yea- 10 years ago. Um, he was definitely part of my transition out of ministry, so
Jeremy: 10 years ago for me too. That, that quote is at least a decade old. Yeah, that's not a...
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: not sure what, what Andy's doing these [01:16:00] days as much as I was my previous life, but.
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah
Jeremy: All right, Gregory, is there anything I have not asked you about that we cannot close this episode without you having a chance to, to say something about it? Anything you wanna add?
Gregory T. Smith: Um, I, one thing I don't think you've asked me, um, but I just wanted the opportunity to say it, is that, um, I have developed so many friendships, uh, and, and relationships with people who are of other faiths
Jeremy: Hmm.
Gregory T. Smith: And
We relate to other people who are part of those other faiths. And I, I just have just gotten to the point where, um, I'm far more interested in curiosity and finding out about another human being and what they believe and about what they experience. And I'm not as interested as I used to be about determining whether that person is [01:17:00] right or wrong, 'cause I no longer believe that they're going to hell.
Uh, and so I don't have to believe that I have to fix them. Uh, so I think that the idea of this, th- this whole book of Jesus and Lao Tzu, you know, it's like, what if they could sit down together at a campfire and just kind of hang out together? If I were to be a Baptist pastor in, in this sermon with an invitation, I gu- I gu- I guess that would be it, right?
Is, is what...
Jeremy: behind you right now
Gregory T. Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Let's just, let's sit down at some campfires with people, you know, and, and let them share their peanut butter, and we can share our chocolate. And, um, moving towards somebody means not having to try to fix them. That's what, that's what love does. Love doesn't have to try to fix people.
Love just embraces people
Jeremy: Gregory, [01:18:00] I love what you are doing in this book. I'm excited for more people to be exposed to something that most of us as Christians are not exposed to, and I do think you're gonna do a great job of bringing that conversation to the campfire for the rest of us. So thank you for the work that you're doing, and thank you for spending time with us today on the podcast
Gregory T. Smith: Well, thank you, Jeremy. I've appreciated it. I've appreciated the opportunity to share the wine with you and to share the spirit with you
Jeremy: Excellent. Well, everybody, hopefully this one's got your brains thinking about all this. Oh, I forgot to ask you, if someone wants to connect, they love this, what's the best way to connect with your work online?
Gregory T. Smith: Well, the book is Jesus and Lao Tzu: The Way of Love, and that, that is spelled L-A-O T-Z-U.
Jeremy: words.
Gregory T. Smith: So Jes- two words, Jesus and Lao Tzu: The Way of Love. It's on Amazon. Uh, and it's in Amazon in a whole bunch of different countries. Uh, so that's the first way. Uh, also I blog, [01:19:00] so I'm on Pathios, and the name of my blog is Breathing Space.
So you can go to Pathios, check them out, do a search for Breathing Space. You're gonna find me. I'm on just about every social media, uh, outlet that there is or that I know of, whether I like that outlet or not, um, just to, to get the word out. So, uh, they can find me there as well
Jeremy: Love it. Well, everybody go check out his work, check out this book, and embrace some mystery in your faith this week. We'll see you next Wednesday on Cabernet and Pray
