Saints, Sinners, and Clickers (with Matthew Distefano) | Ep. 74

June 03, 2026

What do saints, sinners, and zombies have in common? In this episode, Jeremy sits down with author Matthew DiStefano to talk about his book on The Last of Us, the video game that somehow became one of the most philosophically serious explorations of what it means to be human. This conversation goes places you won't see coming: the MLM structure of Christian nationalism, why empathy is more dangerous than we admit, why our morality is less about our convictions and more about our context, and what it feels like to play a character you hate, only to discover you've started rooting for them. You don't need to be a gamer. You need to be someone who's ever wondered what you'd actually do when the world falls apart.

Watch the episode on video: https://youtu.be/tGczdlIaiPw

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My new book, The Edge of the Inside, is now available. You can get a signed copy or in whatever form you prefer: https://www.edgeoftheinside.com/

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Episode Transcript

Saints, Sinners, and Clickers (with Matthew Distefano) | Ep. 74
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[00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray, where we sip the wine and we stir the faith.

And today we've got an episode that I think is a first. I think it's the first time we ever talked about a book based on a video game. So this is gonna be maybe a challenge for you if you don't consider yourself a video game player, but I hope you go into it with an open mind because this is a fascinating conversation about not only the role of video games, but the role of story and empathy and ethics. And we get into all of that on today's episode.

We're talking with Matthew DeStefano. He's an award-winning author, best known for The Wisdom of Hobbits and Mimetic Theory and Middle Earth. He's a co-host of the popular Heretic Happy Hour podcast. He's a co-owner of Choir Publishing and the owner of Happy Woods Farm, a small permaculture farm nestled in the Sierra Nevada foothills of [00:01:00] California.

Matthew's work explores spirituality, theology, philosophy, politics, and culture, and his writing has been featured in Sojourners, Patheos, and beyond. He's a graduate of Chico State University, and when he's not writing, farming, or playing The Last of Us, he enjoys spending time with his wife and his daughter.

This is episode 74, Saints, Sinners, and Clickers.

I've never shared this with anybody publicly If this was Sports Center, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, "How'd you learn so much?" Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment.

Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis [00:02:00] or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is a universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I have been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. So this is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected.

So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. You told me to drink on this show. I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine, and I'm already feeling it, so this is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct-taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it.

We're gonna sit down at a table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about the beauty of Jesus. Thanks for what you're doing with this podcast and for the creative way you're doing it, and the beautiful, positive spirit in which you're doing it. I really appreciate this venue, what you're doing.

It is fun, and yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor [00:03:00] and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique. I never thought of church history in terms of wine drinkers. I love this question. Really got my mind rolling.

You had me with herbaceous notes, I want you to know. I'm ready to just stay here and live in the wine tour. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with Drunk History, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I... Ooh. I got a little spicy there.

It's the peach wine. Apparently the wine is... Here we are. Queer we are. Beer we are. No, it's wine, Jeremy. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you have your guests drink wine. It makes sense now.

Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast. I think you've got a good podcast. Th- throwing the wine bit in there, that's nice, isn't it? Cabernet and pray, [00:04:00] yeah

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, some people play video games and some people write books, and today's guest writes books about playing video games. So welcome to the podcast, Matt.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. Uh, cheers. It's the tin cup because I'm in the process of, like I was saying off the air. We're, we're, things are in boxes still moving across town, so, you know, not,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: that Tin C is gonna,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: my grandmother would be rolling in her grave right now,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: he is, for those of you only listening on audio, he's got, he's got a less traditional glass to enjoy

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: today. So let's talk about what we're drinking. I am rocking the traditional glass for our episode.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: there you

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I have got a 2015 Contino Rioja. Grand Reserva is a Tempranillo blend from Spain, and the Grand Reserva is like, that's the big boy, which means it's aged longer.[00:05:00]

So this can be aged about, uh, I think it's four years, no two years in Oak, and then up to four years in the bottle, which just allows a lot of the other flavors to emerge that, you know, if you don't have the time or the money, uh, you don't get to enjoy all those. But this thing is banging. I'm getting tobacco, cedar, cherry vanilla.

I am loving all of this. So that's what I'm enjoying. Matt, what are you, what are you enjoying in your metal tin?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: well first of all, know a lot more about wine than I do. Um, and I I love that you able to, to pick up on all that kind of stuff. I, I have, um, a, there's a local winery. That, uh, I guess they're like a farmer's market neighbor. 'cause I do a lot of farmer's market stuff at Roca Vine, uh, vineyards.

and I'm drinking one of their merlots. I I normally like, I think my favorite red wine is Old Vine [00:06:00] Zinfandel, but Merlot's. Okay. Um, I, I, I like it's dry. I don't like the sweet wines, so I like the dry wines. Um, not as dry as my grandmother used to drink, but, um, but yeah, I like it. I, I don't drink, uh, at all anymore, but I don't drink a lot of red wine, but, um, I do like it.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: So you've referenced your grandma a couple times. Was she's a, was she a total wino or what was the deal?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh, she, yeah, she was, she was, yeah, she was a Sicilian woman. Um, so there was wine with every meal

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yes.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Every meal, a glass of wine and you know, not every meal, but maybe on the weekends. Her drink was, um, it was a gin martini up with two olives,

just gin and vermouth and two olives. Fuck it. jet fuel.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: It sounds like my, I had a grandma that would roll her own cigarettes and they would drink hard alcohol. And I remember as a kid, I didn't fully appreciate what [00:07:00] that meant, but I kind of knew like, grandma is kind of a badass, you

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: uh, Yeah. Now I'm like, wow, grandma, that's, that's hardcore. So cheers to the grandmas out there that are

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Shout out to the grandmas

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: laying it down for us.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I love it. Okay. Before we get into your latest book, uh, one of the questions I love to ask guests, just to give listeners a chance to have some context. For you, for your story, and for how all of this evolves and we're all works in progress. If you were to look at the last 10 years of your faith journey, uh, and your experiences with God the way it all makes sense to you, how would you describe, you know, how have things changed in that time in the last 10 years?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh wow. Um, I've, I've gotten, well, I feel like, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it has changed a lot. Um, maybe not my theology per se or my view of the Bible [00:08:00] or something, um, I, I've almost come full circle to where I like to have conversations about Jesus again, 'cause I was on this big kick about like, we all just need to shut up about Jesus because none of us are doing what he asked us to do.

So until we do that, why are we even talking about it? Um, and so that was very much where I was at for a long time. Um, but I feel like with so much hijacking politically of Jesus as a person and, and him being used as a mascot and a prop and this kind of performative television Jesus stuff, I feel like it is important to talk about him and what he actually stood for.

so I feel like I'm back in the head space of wanting to engage those conversations. 'cause there was a long time where I wasn't like, if you just look at my bibliography of the books I've written, like they were heavy theology, heavy anthropology, it went like, and, and, and anthropology, I mean like, and how [00:09:00] it related to the Bible.

then it went into, like, I wrote books about Tolkien. Now I'm writing a book about, about the last of us. I was like, I want nothing to do with traditional theology. Y'all are exhausting. Um, and, and now it's, now, now it's like, well, so much talk in the political sphere about what Jesus would do and these Christians basically like trotting out there and telling us how Christian they are, it's like, wait a second.

But he said to pray in, in silent, why are we doing prayer in schools? He said like, let's actually talk about the difference between what they want and what Jesus actually told us to do. So I'm kind of in that space now where it's like, not that I, not that Jesus needs defending, but I feel like he needs people to, to talk on his behalf in a way.

Like, it's like, wait, he gave us this precedent. We need to carry that tradition, not whatever this fascistic, culty manifestation of Jesus is. 'cause it's not even Jesus. It's [00:10:00] actually antithetical.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

I have, you know, numerous people who. When I say stuff in church, you know, like, Hey, why are you getting political? You know, we never used to be political. And I've tried to explain to people, well, it never used to be as blatant, where our government is using spiritual language to defend the craziness of what they're doing.

So when they are using the language that they're using, it's absolutely being hijacked. So then you have to give a counterpoint to that where, which then, you know, the Christians sound political, but it's like, that's because the politics are hijacking all of this language. And you know, as we record this episode, we're in the week where we're, we're reading the Bible performatively, and I just watched a clip of our president read the Bible.

And I'm like, what's so sad to me is there will be many Christians who will be like, see, see this is the most Christian, you know, government we've ever seen. And will completely miss the point that you're saying of like, this is actually [00:11:00] nothing, nothing like Jesus.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: And, and this isn't like my new, my new progressivism. This is like, I'm, I'm going, I'm tapping into what I grew up being told and believing. Like even if they were right, they're not, I'm not going on record to say that the administration has anything to do with Jesus, but even if they were, it's still supposed to be done silently quiet.

It's a, it's a, you have a reverence for your faith. Like it's the quiet acts of helping the poor, of helping the, those in your community. All of this on TV stuff, doesn't, it, doesn't it really have the vibe of Grif televangelist and it's like, lo and behold, that's who their spiritual advisors are and, but.

I, I what I, what I don't, and, and there's always gonna be those grifters, but what I don't quite understand still yet today is the people who lived their Christian faith a certain way and, and, and they thought [00:12:00] those televangelists were insane. They thought they were grifters. And now they're almost like, it's almost like an AP apologetics for them.

You know? It's like, how, how are we not talking about like, we knew Paula, white, Kane was nuts 20 years ago. I thought like, now all of a sudden it's okay like this. Like just sow your a thousand dollars seed money, do this. We all thought, like in my churches, we were like, no, that's not what the gospel's supposed to be.

now it's like, and, and that's blasphemy almost. It's like using the name of Jesus to make yourself rich. Like what worse can you do? Like now it's just like, oh, well, okay, this is, that's, this is a sign that it's Christian. In what way?

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: In what way is it like Matthew five? In what way? Does it line up with the Beatitudes?

In what way does it line up with the fruit of the spirit that Paul talked about? In what way? Please write me an essay. I will. I, if it's good, I'll put it as a guest contribution on any of the places that I publish for. [00:13:00]

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: and you

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I Yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: and John Fugelsang, who we both are connected with, you know, hi. His whole thing of like, give me one thing that MAGA talks about that's actually a teaching of Jesus. Like a teaching of Jesus. Right. And it's like, it's not, none of this stuff is, and I love that you said God doesn't need to be defended.

'cause I, I, I completely agree. And I think the difference is, it's not that we're trying to defend God in this season, but it's almost like you're trying to appeal to all the people who are being duped, I guess. you.

know, and you're like, Hey, this isn't it, you know? So it's like you used to be able to know this wasn't it?

And now you don't seem able to know this, isn't it?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. And it's almost like they got caught in the MLM and you're like, but, but we, we all knew to look out for the MLMs, and now you are in one

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: you're in the downline Do you not see

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: you're in The downline and you're down away, so you're not gonna be that

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: making that money.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: You're way on the downline.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: yeah, they're like, no, I'm in it. man. I'm gonna [00:14:00] get more people in underneath me and

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Oh yeah. that's great that this is a giant MLM we're in.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: MLM, it's a pyramid scheme. There's nothing there for 'em at the end of it.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Oh, that's amazing.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: with some MLMs you can sell products, I suppose. Right. I don't love the structure, but this is more of a pyramid scheme where it's like, it's it's funny money. It

doesn't

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: it's a Ponzi. scheme, right? There's nothing there.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah, exactly. There's nothing there. It's bur, it's, it's Madoff, you.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I mean, literally, yeah. I mean that's, that is, I think the thing, and I don't even, it obviously began where I think progressive Christians saw it first. Now, I think we're in the stage where there's more and more people that would not label themselves progressive, but are like, Yeah,

this is, you know, confusing.

It's like the guy is just making stuff up. Like, you know, he sells his own Bible, he sells his own cryptocurrency. Like, it's just, it's, I'm gonna manufacture the, the most random, crazy shit. And then people are like, I have to have this. And even like his Bible. I'm [00:15:00] like, I, I don't know how I would handle it if I ever saw someone, like in the wild, if I saw someone bring that to church, how I, would like be so triggered by that, you

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I, it's, there's all these moments where you're like, okay, this is gonna be the one where he

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: the, the, the purity culture. Uh, the Christian, the devout, you know. It's not when he signed the Bibles, it's, it's not when he put, it's not when he put the lyrics to a song in the Bible and the Constitution.

I don't think Revelation is talking about the Bible when it says, do not add or delete from the words of this book, the Bible as it's currently formed, didn't

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Didn't exist

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Right. So But

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Details. Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: but they believe that. And you yet you think it's just what, like, it's just Trump saying it like it is.

No, he's, he's, are you okay with that? Like [00:16:00] when, when someone like, I don't know, Joe Biden or something, did something, he didn't do it like in the name of Jesus. Like he, it's like if I had, it's like if I have a complaint about any politician that's just doing shitty things, am I allowed to cuss on the show?

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Then, then I get to point to that politician say, I disagree with that. At least they're not generally doing it in the name of Jesus. Like the Trump thing is like, you're desecrating your faith for this guy for the next thousand years or whatever. Like it seems like you take this a little more seriously.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, I wrote a blog post in 2016 that was basically, you know, an appeal to Christians who supported Trump. And my whole, my whole point of that post was, I don't care if you vote for him because you think that there's good reason, Sue, that's fine, but please don't vote for him because you think he's the Christian candidate. right. And that was the language I was hearing. It was like, he's not, so if you vote for him, let it be for other reasons, not for that. [00:17:00] And I got all this reaction. People were like, well, are you gonna say the same thing? You write a post about Hillary? It's like No one. is saying Hillary is a Christian candidate.

That's the difference. You're not realizing nobody said that. Right.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Right.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: So when you have the, this is a Christian thing, then it's like those of us who are like, Yeah. we're actually following Jesus and that ain't it. We do feel the need to like, Hey, uh, hey guys, this isn't, he's just using that word like that doesn't mean that.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: So all that to say, you're back into theology. Welcome,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Well, maybe I

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: welcome back.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I mean, I, I, I do talk about theology, like even in a book about video games. I, of course, I have to talk about theology when I'm reading Tolkien. He was a devout Catholic. Right. So, but yeah, as far as like the, the more nuts and bolts about Theo. I mean, see, I, I don't think we can, don't think we can be completely and [00:18:00] theological or apolitical.

Like, I think, I think even, I think even, uh. Not being political is itself a political statement. Like it, it itself is a political stance. Like it's, it's having the political privilege to have that view and to have that belief because not everyone has that privilege. Generally

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: from a posture. yeah,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: it.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: based on the color of your skin, your sexuality, your gender, uh, whatever.

Right. And so when you're not political, okay, well good for you. Whether you're political or not. Gas prices. Or gas prices, right. Like, uh, you know, uh, tariffs or tariffs, right? Like wars are

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Okay, so as an author, writing books that were more in that lane and then writing books that were more in a different lane, obviously you're the same person, or, I mean, you're growing, but you fundamentally are you what? What's that? What's that experience been like? Is it totally different writing the Tolkien books and the video game books, or do you feel like it's similar?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I [00:19:00] was more nervous about the Tolkien book, the first one, especially because I was like, well, what can I write about when it comes to Tolkien? There are literally like graduate advanced level degrees that you can get in Tolkien studies like, and then I laughed at myself and I was like, but I've written like eight books at this point on God,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: You could also get degrees on that. Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: A few. A couple. There's a, there's a few options out there. Um, so I actually felt more nervous about that. Just I, I don't know why. Like, I, when I published my first theology book, it was with Wiffen stock, and I was just excited to be published. but I never had like, oh, I don't know if anyone's gonna read this.

I was like, oh, I just wanna publish a book. It just happens to be about theology and, and, and, but yeah, that, but the writing, I think is the, it's a similar process, right? It's like, it's all exegesis and hermeneutics. How are you interpreting this and what are your grids and lenses? We, you know, you've got JD Vance who claims to be a Tolkien fan, and then Peter Thiel, who names his company after Palantir, [00:20:00] which is what you shouldn't name your company after if you're trying to be good.

Um, and, and you've got people like me who approach Tolkien and come. Come away from it as far as Richard Rory is from Kenneth Copeland. You know, and they're both Christian, right? Like, it's like, oh my God. Like, so it is really, and it, but it's the same text, it's the same set of books. It's the same movie, it's the same video game.

What's the difference? observer? What's the difference? It's the person who's interpreting, the text and the media in front of you.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I've, I've loved like watching Stephen Colbert talk about Tolkien, and that's where you realize this is, this is bible level nerdery happening

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh, totally. Yeah.

Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: and

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: even some of Tolkien's texts read like ancient

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Bible stories. Like, I gotta get outta genealogy, I gotta get outta outline. I gotta write these names down. It's like, oh my goodness.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I love it. Okay, so you've been on a journey. You've, you've [00:21:00] written about different things. The latest one is about a video game, so not a ton of books about video games. Why, why was that where you felt like that was the next project you wanted to work on?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: It was one of the, like, I don't know what it is for you on your process of, I have like, sometimes it's like you have different motivations to writing different things to do certain projects. Sometimes it's like, I mean, if a, I own a publishing company, but if a major publishing company wanted to gimme like a hundred thousand dollars advance to write my deconstruction story or something, I don't necessarily, that's not

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: When do you need it?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah, I, I'll, I'll, I'll be like that Kermit the Frog meme, like write it, press me and if you need it in a week, I could probably do something.

and then there's the, the projects where it's like. It's like, it just, I don't know where our thoughts come from. I don't know where our motivations come from, from a lot of things. like all of a sudden it just clicks like, oh, that has to be my next book. Like it has to be, [00:22:00] then for me it was like a title, really.

It was Saints, sinners and Clickers. I, I thought that was a really cool title. for those that don't know, um, a clicker is a type of zombie. I put 'em in scare quotes 'cause they're not really zombies, but they're kind of like zombies. so I just love the sound of that. Um, and because it fits with the title, like the, but like, any of us saints, are any of us sinners?

it's all the above. Um, so it becomes ambiguous, like, what's, who's the good guy and who's the bad guy here? Uh, we don't really know. Um, so I just like, I have to write that book. Um, so that's what it was for like the Tolkien stuff. And for this, it's like. Just kind of like tuning yourself to how you're feeling, what you're observing, what you're passionate about in the moment.

Um, I think and, and how, like when those ideas come to you, pouncing on them if you're

able to

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I love that. It, it is often the creative process feels like something you're chasing, that you got, you have [00:23:00] to

you have to go after it. And it's like, I, I just have to, I have to follow this.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. And, and oftentimes you have to let it come to you too. Like, you have to be willing to say, like, like right now, after this book comes out, I, I told Keith, my business partner the other day, I was like, I don't think I have another book right now. Like, I don't have a book. Uh, I'm gonna co-write.

We're Keith and I have a book that we're gonna co-write, but I don't have a book. And I was like. To me that, and, and I've had this desire to write a story. I wanna write a fiction. Um, so I was like, okay, now is the time to do that. I don't, I don't need to publish a book right now. And I know fiction, it could take a long time, a lot longer than nonfiction.

I feel like, at least nonfiction I write. Um, so gonna develop that story, but that's just me, like being okay with, I don't know, like I don't know where this next project's gonna come from, and I'm okay with that.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Hmm. Okay. You wrote this, the last of us may be the most philosophically [00:24:00] sophisticated narrative in video game history. That's a, that's a hell of a statement there. What is it about that game that.

captured your imagination?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I just think, I think how, um, like I've always gone to video games and I'm not, and I don't say this as like, I'm not like a deep dive nerd. Like there could be like video game nerds out there. I'm, I'm a nerd in many different ways, so, but I'm, I'm a, I'm a, like a, I wouldn't even call myself a gamer, but I play video games if that makes sense.

Right? Like, um, but I'm not like a hardcore gamer that has to get all the titles that come out and do all that. for me what hit me was I generally approached video games as an, as kind of an escapist sort of thing. Like I want to in another world and escape from reality, and I want to go play Skyrim or oblivion and be in fantasy, or I wanna [00:25:00] be in Red Dead redemption and ride horses and you know,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: It's such a great game.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: too.

It's so good. And that one. That used to be my favorite story, and it still is right there. It's like one A and one b.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Oh, that one is so good. Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: There's, something about brutally honest the last of us is, and, and, and I know others are. Red Dead is brutally honest too. I think for me, being a father of a teenage daughter, there's so much of that context in the last of us, and so again, me bringing my grid and filter into that story, I think just enhances it in such a way that's different than other stories.

Because, you know, I can see myself in Joel Miller, the main character see my daughter in, know? I don't want to, I'm trying, I'm trying not to give spoilers away, but in, in Ellie, the other main character, the, you know, his surrogate daughter and, and [00:26:00] Joel goes through a hell of a tragic, that's you, the first 15 minutes of the video game will rip your, rip your heart out through your chest, uh, before you even learn the mechanics.

Like, and so that to me, struck so deeply in wrestling with, with that and what that would look like and like, to just have so much empathy for the characters when the entire world, not only like, like the zombie apocalypse is the backdrop to this very human father losing everything. And so, like, I'm not a horror fan necessarily.

I'm not like a, I liked Sean of the dead and I like, you know, 28 days later, but I'm not like a zombie nerd. but it was that human. You're playing a video game to escape. And now I gotta, now I gotta, I gotta ask some deeply philosophical questions within five seconds of this game. Like, how dare you? But then you can't put the controller down 'cause it's so fun.

It's such a good game. Like just from a gaming standpoint, super fun. [00:27:00] And then the story keeps drawing you in and drawing you in. You're like, oh my God, this is who we are. It doesn't take a zombie apoe, it just, in this world it takes, it takes a breakout, an outbreak of, of a fungus get us to see who we've always been and how real the last of us is, is.

I think it's just on another level.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Is this a game? I mean, can you replay this game or it's like it's a story. You play it one through

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Well, okay. I've replayed number one, like 5, 6, 7 times, and

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Wow.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I've only played number two twice, and I've watched a play through and I've done a lot of research and watched, you know, done. I, I've read there's, there is another book on the last of us, part two is part, part one is like the depths you would go for someone you love and part two is like the depths you would go to to find, to seek retribution.

And that's a whole different one. That one's [00:28:00] way heavy. And that was part of the controversy of like, everyone loved, I mean, it was like unanimous part one. Everyone loved part two. It's like there's a lot of us who loved it and there's a lot of, a lot of people who could not handle it now, which I think is part of the brilliance of it.

It's like, oh, we're gonna go even deeper and darker because that's where humanity can be found and. That's where some people are. That's where some of us have been. Um, and where does that, where does that lead our characters? And it's so that one's super heavy. I don't, they have some sort of like, you could just play levels and you could do this kind of thing in part two.

But as far as playing the story, know how many times I'll play that one through. If, if, if I'll ever play it again. Maybe.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: That's so interesting. You

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: thinking about, I was driving my daughter, picking her up from dance or something the other day, and we started talking about like ethical dilemmas.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: fellow, a fellow dance dad.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah, there you go.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh [00:29:00] yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: And, uh, you know, you're Always driving if you, if you're a dance dad. And, um, and we were talking about ethical.

I don't know how we got into this, but you know, the idea of, you know, she was asking something. about, she's working through some ethical idea. And so I was like, all right, you know what? If you had to kill a child in order to save a hundred other people, like what do you think about that? And, you know, getting her to like, wrestle with these ideas and, you know, she was like, do I.

do I have to kill the child?

Or like just, I just know the child's gonna die, you know? And it's like you start to realize like, there, this brings out raw aspects of humanity, of like, what would you do? And, you know, then she was asking me like, well Dad, how would you do this? And I said, you know, it's really hard when we're sitting here driving in a car.

To, to really say what we would do. Right?

We can say what we'd want to be true, but I said, you know, I, I don't think until you're there, you really know what you would do.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yep.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: It seems like games like this are about as close as you can get [00:30:00] without really being in it to, to kind of figure out, like that reaction you're saying of like, what would I do?

And it's almost like, you know, I remember like, uh, my son just recently finished Breaking Bad and so he got into all that and he was like, dad, you know, you're rooting for the bad guy. And I was like, isn't it interesting how that brings out these complicated feelings you, that are there? And then you're like, should I feel what I feel?

So it's like, is this what this game does? It's like, does it cause you to like face these raw aspects of your humanity?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, why am I, like, you're only rooting for this one person because of the context. And I like that you had that conversation. You pointed it out with your daughter. and I, and I state something very similar in the book. Like often, like our, our morals and our moral system is a matter of, um, how did I, how did I say?

I don't know exactly how I said it, but, that it's, it's, it's, it's, um, it's less about our convictions and more about our context. It seems like [00:31:00] what would I do if I were hungry? Well, I don't know. I'm not hungry. And

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Right.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I, and if I'm hungry, I'm not hungry. Hungry. Hungry, like hungry, hungry. Like I don't know where my next meal's coming from.

Right. Like, how would I decide in those moments? I, I can, yeah, again, I can speculate, I also speculate through this idea that Matthew Jada, Stefano is some noble, know, other oriented Jesus following sort of fucking hip. And, but I, you know, I, I haven't lost what Joel loses in the game. I, I, we haven't, I haven't lost my entire humanity.

I haven't been pushed to the brink of, of survival. and, and what deci decisions are you gonna make, uh, in light of that? So this game does that, I think, and more. I think it takes you to places where you don't want to go and hopefully don't have to go. Um, but I almost said it's fun to [00:32:00] wrestle with. It's not fun to wrestle, but I think it's necessary to wrestle with it so that we can have an understanding of what I think, I think ultimately, hopefully to lead us to more empathy.

Not to write off the decisions people make to, but to understand them better.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah, it reminded me, Uh I remember reading the Gulag Archipelago. I dunno if you've read that. And it, it just wrecked me and like, put me in a funk for a while because that isn't fiction. That's what humanity Has actually done to one another.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: done,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: And I remember just like, uh, you know, kind of wishing I had never read it.

Like,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yep.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I felt that with, uh, the, the, the novel silence as well. Like, I kind of wish I never read this. 'cause it, it's like I, I lost some innocent part of me died, you know, and I read those. But then kind of what you're saying is I had this reality of like, but that's real life. Like, that's, that's what people have had to go through.

And so I guess it makes me wonder, do you [00:33:00] think we can prepare ourselves? Like when you say like, Hey, this is who I would be. We obviously don't know, but can you do anything now to make the person you wanna be in that moment more likely to be the person you would actually be?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh, sure. I think I, yeah, I think the more you, the more you wrestle with that question of like, who am I as a human being in relation to other human beings? I think the more we take seriously the plight of others and those in our community and enriching lives and being like, I mean, it's simple, but like when, when I'm gone, I want the world to at least be better than when I got here.

In my own way, I can't control the world, but because I was here, I want, I want things to be better. when I wasn't here, I wanna improve that com. I want to improve the community in some kind of way. And whether the community is your local community, online [00:34:00] communities, whatever it is, um, so that when we come face to face with those.

You know, life situations, um, we'll at least have ran through it in our mind and be, and mean, it's better to be prepared that way and not have ever experienced it, than just like, oh, well I think I'll this. And then never, have any practice. Like, it's like expecting to look at a piano and be able to play, you know, Vivaldi or Japan next week or something like, um, spirituality and, and ethics and all these things are like, I mean, they're like, they're disciplines in a way and they're like, they're, they're they, how people navigate the world.

And then, and then we think we can't practice 'em. We can't but it takes 10,000 hours to be a master at something, right? Like you pick up your guitar, it's gonna take 10,000 hours to be a master at it. We have to master some sort of spiritual discipline. Doesn't mean you have to go to [00:35:00] church or anything, doesn't mean you have to.

Pray or anything like that, but like your walks in nature are prayer, maybe maybe feeding the person on the corner without thinking about like a copay or if he's gonna use your money for drugs or something that, that's practice. That's all those things are spiritual practices, I think. Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

I, I love that idea. And I think, you know, if someone's listening to this and they're like, well, I don't play video games, you know, it might be easy, kind of dismiss this whole thing of like, that's, you know, for, for other people. I think the reality though, it's kind of, it, it, I would say, 'cause I, I, I also, I would describe myself as very similar to you as a gamer, where it's like, I'm not the diehard, but I, I do love it.

And it's, uh, it is very relaxing, very entertaining. I love the way it ignites my imagination.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: but I, I kind of compare it to, you know, when I read a, a good biography, Right.

You get to see someone's life in its entirety [00:36:00] and it gives you a perspective, like when you finish it, you're kind of like, I got to go with you on your whole journey.

And I got to see the impact of the decisions you made in your life. And it gives you like a different perspective. Like, what am I doing with mine? You know, of

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Right.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: this is, this is a finite thing. I've got, I'm in the middle of mine, or wherever you're at. I got to read someone's whole, you know, trajectory.

And I think video games, these story video games allow you to kind of experience, it's almost like, you know, good fiction creates empathy in you. I, I believe, and so does a story video game where you have to then, it's not just you're reading a good fictional story, but like you get to, depending on the game, participate in it somehow.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: What would you say to someone who's listening to this that maybe is not either a gamer or is kind of like, Yeah.

I've never really done it. Like, how have you seen the power of these kind of stories and, and the way this builds empathy in a unique way?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I just think it's more intimate, like you, like in this story, it's, [00:37:00] it's linear, the story's the story. Whereas in Red Dead Redemption too. Yes, there are, there's like a arc, but you also get to go outside of it and make your own decisions and you get to sometimes choose to do one thing or the other. It doesn't ultimately, I think, impact the, the, the main arc necessarily in subtle ways.

one is more linear and it's just so intimate. Like a movie could be an hour and a half or two hours, or if it's Lord of the Rings, it's, you know, 12 hours

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: the extended cut.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah, the extended versions. which still don't include the scouring in the Shire, but that's the different conversation. Um. But a video game, you might spend 20, 30, 40 hours with this character.

It's, it's more like a book, like a novel like you're reading. It might take you a couple weeks to read through a long novel or something. Um, so it's just, it's you and video games are just so well done in terms of like, I think Last Of Us does a great job where like there's gameplay and then there's great cut scenes, and then it, so it's like you could take all the cut [00:38:00] scenes.

I think people have done this, they have to have and put 'em on YouTube and it's like a seven hour movie, right? Like so you're talking about something that's three. It's four times the length of a movie. And these movies, we care about these characters. If you, you know, any of your favorite movies where you really care about the character, I don't, I don't know, like The Martian, you really want him to get off, off the planet.

Like are they gonna save him? Like, and it's just this one guy that you're rooting for and it's like, imagine spending 20 hours on screen with someone. And not only that, but you are controlling them. You are clicking the buttons and then they're doing the action. And yeah, it's, your hands are forced in a way, in, in many video games, but still participating.

The last of us is like, it like destroys the mannequin hero though. Like you're complicit in like killing like, and, and, and, and, and in part two, the NPCs have names, like you kill one of 'em and they're like, Hey Adam, where are, like, they have names and so you're

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Oh geez.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: if they have names, they have [00:39:00] families, like if they have names, they have whatever, you know?

And so it's like, oh, and I'm complicit in that I'm clicking the buttons.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: This is like a, like empathy on steroids really, as I'm thinking about it, of like, what a great tool to help people develop a skill that is desperately needed, especially in an era where we talk about toxic empathy, you know?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Well, who's talking about toxic empathy? Ali Beth Stuckey,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah. Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I feel like some people talk about empathy. They say toxic empathy anytime you have empathy,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, it's empathy for the people. They don't want you to have empathy about.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: right? Yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Okay. So you

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: it. Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: you mentioned Joel in this is, is that the character you most resonate with or is there someone that you really found yourself diving into?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I mean, at first, yeah, because he is like the father figure and he has to lead Ellie across the United States to where they're going. [00:40:00] Um. So that's kind of like, and you're playing as that character. And so I'm a father, I have a teenage daughter and you know, she's kind of crass and like, makes jokes with him and my daughter and I can be that way too.

Like, so that dynamic obvious was an obvious one for me. but I really do resonate with Ellie and my like, like I'm, I'm, I don't resonate with her as far as like, because I feel like I'm like her, but it's more like, I feel like, like I see Ellie as a daughter type and so in part two when her story gets super dark, like, it's like that's what was so difficult for me to play.

'cause you're playing as her too. And you're also playing as basically her enemy as well. And that's another thing. It forces it, it forces you to watch horrible things and then hate a person and then it, you play as them and you're like. Like, [00:41:00] I don't think a game has done that where you're like, without giving spoilers, like you witness things go on and you're like, I hate this person.

Like I hate them. And then like the next cut scene happens, and then you're like,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: You are them.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: you're them. And so there's like these videos of them like running, running off the cliff, over and over and like, you know, it, it's, but then you play it and, and then, and then by the end of that you develop empathy for her too.

the, I like that the, um, my friend Lauren Sabine is an author. She wrote The Forward and she really resonates with that character that are, the game forces you to hate. Um, and so we've had really good conversations about like how that, how that works, why that works. And I think they took a big risk in doing that, but they pulled it off because you really see, and you sit back and you say, yeah, I'm really rooting for these people based on my context.

If I had a different context, I might hate these people. I might despise these people. [00:42:00]

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: That's so interesting. I love that.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: So the game expl.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: what you normally jump into for a video game, like you normally don't think I, I wanna get really heady about this.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

Well, I mean, I, I think about like, there, there have been, you know, games that I, I love the morality system, which, you know, it can be kind of trivial, you know, in video games like Red Dead of like,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: know, I, I, I, I'm trying to think of what, what I always like if you, if you shoot someone that's bad.

You don't get any bad morality, but if you loot their corpse, you do. You know, and I was always like, I'm getting bad morality for that. Like,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Right,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: you know, two, $2 off this body of a bandit that I just killed. And that, I dunno. So the morality can be funny, but I also like, my favorite, my favorite franchise is the Fable franchise. I dunno if you've ever played those games.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: haven't, but I'm, I'm interested in playing the new one.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: The new one is supposed to be unbelievable. I'm, so, I'm like nerding out on the new one coming [00:43:00] out. I think it's like October-ish. But, uh, there's three Fable games and they, they were like one of the early ones where you character can be good or bad depending on the, the choices you make and people react to you, right?

And like, and it physically changes your body. So like, you start to look sinister if you keep doing, you know, if you keep murdering civilians, you, you start like, people like run away when you show up. And, uh, and so I, I do think it's an interesting, like we're dealing with big. Morality, ethical things in almost a, a more lighthearted accessible way.

But you, you've shared that like the game explores the moral psychology of revenge and forgiveness, which obviously are opposite, you know, polar opposite ends of that spectrum with radically different outcomes. What have you learned about those through this game and through, you know, participating in the game in that way?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Hmm. On specifically revenge and forgiveness. Yeah. So forgiveness, uh, [00:44:00] is often a process. 'cause, uh, Ellie says, um, in one of the flashback scenes to Joel, I, I want to, like, what does she say? I want forgive you. Or, um, or I hope, I hope someday that I will. So it's like. I, I would like to do this. And so that already is the part of the process.

Like it is almost like Ellie knew she was going to eventually

able to forgive Joel for Um, you know, I really want people to play this, or at least watch the television show, which is a fair adaptation of it, but it's at least worth it. Um, so I don't, I don't want to spoil it, but like, it's like, it's like she was already in the process of forgiveness and I think what she would realize is that the forgiveness is not necessarily for the other person.

The forgiveness is for herself. Um, and what really [00:45:00] struck me in terms of revenge is that at the end of it, because the Abby, the, the, the enemy of Ellie, she gets revenge. For something that had happened and then loses everything. So revenge seems like a, a default programming when someone wrongs us tit for tat, right?

Like quid pro quo. Um, you know, in the Bible it's like, uh, early on in Genesis, if, know, uh, lame is hit by a boy and if it's his vengeance was 70 times seven, so obviously he's gonna kill this guy, um, that doesn't actually bring back the thing that you lost.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: of course we know that without the video game, right?

Like we know that by experience. But like, it really emphasizes that like, not only, not only do you lose yourself, but even if you get, even if you're successful, you win, you get your [00:46:00] vengeance, thing that you lost is still gone.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Hmm

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: It's still gone. And so it, that vengeance, revenge is not part of the healing process.

It's simply not. And forgiveness. is, and it's for the person forgiving. 'cause forgiveness and reconciliation are two entirely different things.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: hmm. Yeah.

it's interesting you see these play out in, in this story in a big way, and then yet you realize these are the options we have every day to the things that people do to us. You know, where. I can choose to try to reconcile, I can choose to try to forgive you. I can choose to try to move on, or I can just get bitter and like, now I'm gonna make you pay for whatever you did to me.

And they're very different roads to walk down. And sometimes I think it's helpful to see it play out in a story where you're like, Oh, that road doesn't [00:47:00] deliver. Because I think like most movies especially, and probably most video games, I mean, it is a, it's a revenge story, right? Because that's like, that's, that's the standard.

Somebody's wronged and then we're gonna watch 'em make it right. The rest of the movie it's, you know, it's the John Wick, like something was done and then this badass is gonna go make it right. And we get to enjoy vicariously, this sense of revenge. I dunno if you've ever seen the movie Pig, but, uh, it's Nicholas Cage.

Phenomenal. I love this. And it's like, it's like the antithesis to John Wick.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Uhhuh.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: kind of setup, but then. He handles it like the opposite way that John Wick would ever have handled it. And it's one of the most beautiful stories to me because, you know, like the John Wick thing, it's like, that's in Hollywood.

Like you don't, you don't solve your problems by just mowing everybody down and going through everybody. Like that doesn't, that doesn't bring anything back. You have no sense of closure over [00:48:00] that. But stories like pigs show you like, oh, if you actually appeal to other people's humanity and your humanity, even when you're wrong like that, that allows a different outcome.

And so I do think it's interesting in some of these stories to see it play out and then go, oh Yeah.

that's not actually what I want to do.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. And it's, um, it makes me like, I don't wanna like totally gas 'em up, but it makes me like really praise naughty dog for taking the risk. Especially in part two where you do, you do play a lot of the game and you're like, all of this, even like with the way it ends, you're like, so all of this was pointless?

You're like, yeah, that's, that's kind of the point. Like, and that's the risk you take. Like could you create a video game where at the end of it you're like, that was pointless. I had fun. And it helped playing like the actual mechanics. Super fun. Like, it's one of the most, like, you know, when you play a video game and you feel like you're kind of, you're not on the ground, you're like an inch off the ground.

game is very grounded. Everything has [00:49:00] weight.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Hmm.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: so that what, that's what makes the game super fun. Like. It responds in a way that like, oh, I want them to move like this. And you're able to, and like there's weight to the game. So that is fun. But then as far as the story goes, you're like, oh, so I didn't have to do it.

Like I not only didn't have to do that, but shouldn't have done any of that.

I shouldn't have because that's, that's the point, right? Like, this is futile. It's futile. Like what happened happened. And going to going to make it right is not, that's not a, that's not a possible, that's not a possibility. There's no making it right. done. Like you're not, you're not, you're not undoing that which was done.

That's a risk to take in video gaming though. Like, whatcha talking about

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: like, yeah, let's go spend a hundred million dollars and make that. It's like, and they did and it, and it works.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Do you find [00:50:00] yourself, I mean, I would imagine so. Thinking about stuff from the game just in real life, like something happens and it brings like a scene to mind or something

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: All the time. Yeah, there's between, between Lord of the Rings and like, and, uh, between Lord of The Rings and Stardew Valley, another video game, which if you're into cozy gaming, it's the greatest. It's a farming simulator. I'm a farmer. I've basically modeled my farm after Stardew Valley, so, um,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: really.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah, with like, yeah, we're doing a lot.

Yeah. I mean, not modeled in terms of, of like how it looks. It's like a 32 bit video game, but like, Kind of like, yeah. but yeah, every time I see a giraffe, um, giraffes have become my favorite animal. Um, next to the chicken. 'cause I raise chickens. I love chickens. yeah, every time, every time I see, uh, mushrooms I think of like.

some way I think of last of us, 'cause the whole premise is a, a real mushroom cord. ISPs, it's a science fiction take on on what happens if cord [00:51:00] ISPs, which does what it does in the game to ants in real life. Like, it'll take over their brain and force them to behave in a certain way. And then stocks will come out and it'll draw the other ants and they'll get infected.

And how it continues the cycle. It basically controls the mind of it. So it takes that puts it into human every time I see mushrooms. Yeah, there's, there's so many things like dates. The reason the book comes out on April 28th is because that's the day Ellie gives Joel, uh, a certain picture.

and then there's the draft scene, which is famous and last of us where it's like, it, it's like if you took like the craziest. Progressive metal, metal core, whatever. And then you had like a five minute interlude of the most beautiful music you've ever heard. That's, that's the giraff scene. It's so striking and it, like, the first time you watch it, you're just like crying.

You're like, this is beautiful. Like, giraffes for me, [00:52:00] like every, I've got giraffes in my office, little things here and there, have just become like my favorite animal. I think they're fascinating.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Wow.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I love it. That's a, that's a good story is when it lives rent free in your head in real life.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. Most bad, most things that live rent free in your head aren't positive, but I feel like that's positive.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I like it. That's awesome. Well, I think you've made a, a good case for it. Let's switch gears. I want to ask you some questions that I like to ask each of our guests, and we get to compare your answers and your perspective to everyone else.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I love

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: We'll start with wine or with the wine question.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Okay.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: If I were to ask you, what's the greatest glass of wine you've ever had in your life?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh, geez.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: there a story that comes to your mind and we'd love to know, is it 'cause of who you were with, where you were, what you were drinking, anything that comes to mind? What was the greatest glass of wine you can ever remember?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: So I don't know what I was [00:53:00] drinking, and it's not because it was, it wasn't a particularly expensive bottle of wine. um, it was at a bed and breakfast in Napa, of course. Um, I, I live in Northern California and my wife and I were there it was a bunch of people. I mean, Napa's very wealthy and you could tell it was like a bunch of wealthy people.

And, and then it was us. and they, they decided to open up. It was probably like a hundred and some odd dollar bottle of wine, which is not anything we would ever, ever. Bye. Um, and so it wasn't the wine, I can't remember. I mean, it was good, but it wasn't like, oh my gosh, that much. I mean, I wouldn't be able to tell between that and a $20 bottle of wine probably.

But just the memory of like, and it, it was such like, it was so fun. Like the people were like way down to earth, even though you knew they were like in a different wealth class than you were. We had such a good time. And I'm not like I, I, my wife and I were there, it was like in the basement of this being was like this cool basement area and we had, we just hung out and normally I'm not that social, but [00:54:00] like this was super f so that always stands out. It was like one of our anniversaries early on. Not early on in our marriage, but like, I think before maybe right when we had our daughter. So it was like 15 years ago.

Maybe, maybe an early getaway, something like that for like a night and just being able to be like, pretend we were bouie,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: um, was super fun. But it not, but they were all cool. So it was actually fun. It wasn't like they weren't snobs and we were just trying to observe. It was like they were actually just down to earth, people who happened to like really expensive wine and having to have money.

So that, that stands out to me.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Those are, those are good people to be around.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: All right. Which member of church history would you trust to pick out a bottle of wine for you and who would you not trust and why?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh gosh. Um,

I would trust, uh, Francis of Assisi.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Okay.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I feel like he would know where the grapes were [00:55:00] grown, what methods were used in like, um, you know, the soil and all. He would be able to tell me about the whole ecology of it, what the farm is like. You know, they're like, oh, they, maybe it's a regenerative farm. He would probably wouldn't have that language back then.

But now, if it was like modern asi, I would not, I feel like I wanna say Calvin, but that's an easy answer. I want to go, like, I feel like Tertullian might slip something in there.

You know what I mean? I feel like he, yeah, I don't need, I don't need to trust this guy.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: You slip something in there that's amazing.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I'm not trying to defame his character. Don't come back from the dead and sue me. But I do not, I don't have much respect for Tertullian.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I love it.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: what, who are your guys or gals?

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Uh, I think Augustine will probably be top of my list of who I'm not,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: not, I'm not taking any bottle from you and your theology. I, I always like this question 'cause it [00:56:00] takes, you know, like. Whose theology you like and then applies it in a totally funky way of like,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: picking wine out for you, which shouldn't have anything to do with their theology, but It totally does.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: he

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I'm not drinking that. If you, you pick that bottle.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah. Well, Calvin would only take the elect grapes.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: see, here's what's interesting though. Calvin was a wine guy and he is French. So

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: even though the, this is, I, because I, Calvin comes up regularly in this, in this question because theologically, I don't resonate with Calvin at all from a wine point of view, probably would've liked the guy.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: probably, Yeah. He, is.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: He's probably, he was probably legit and probably. would've been a solid pick. But if we just go theologically, you never get, you never get there. So that's why,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: it's, appealing to our greater humanity. Matt

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Right. And Luther was a beer guy. Right.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Luther was a beer guy, so Lu again, Luther's a guy theologically I probably wouldn't have loved, but alcohol wise probably knew what he was doing and could be solid with it.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Okay.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: [00:57:00] So there you go. Question gets you just to think, you know about

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: the categories we put people in. Okay.

What's something you used to believe that.

it turned out later you were wrong? About?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Where do I start? Um, I, I mean, I pick, pick one of 'em. I used to believe in the rapture.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Hmm.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Um, I used to believe as a child that the earth was only 10,000 years old.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah. I I had you beat,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: one pretty quick

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I, was 6,000. I was the

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: purest.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh, I, okay. Well, I was a heretic then from early, from early days, but I, I felt like those, those, well, the rapture stuck around for a while, but those, those other ones like, yeah.

Yeah, 10,000 years old. And then I was like, then I, then I took like, I don't know, science in elementary school and I was like, oh, probably not.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: In elementary school.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I took science, you know, just,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: That's your elective.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: that's why I liked him. I'll take science, please.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: [00:58:00] Oh, it's amazing.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Did you, you changed your mind on those in elementary school? 'cause it took me a lot longer.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: not rapture. Rapture was like, um, like late high school. Early college then, but no, the, the, the early, yeah, the young Earth stuff and like the bible, the Iner Bible, pretty early on, but the hell stuff and the, the scary stuff stayed with me for a while.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Hmm.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Like the really scary stuff. Like the earth being 10,000 years old.

That's not scary. It's silly, but it's not scary. the hell and the rapture, that's, those are the two big ones.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Why do you think that one or those two took you longer?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I feel like those ones make those ones again, make sense to some part of us. Like people there are bad people and they deserve to be punished. Um, the rapture, because I honestly think people who taught me Christianity did not teach me Christian history. If I would've [00:59:00] known that this was like a, a doc, a doctrine developed in the 18 hundreds, and that is like a small sl, assumed all Christians believed it.

I would've, I, I would've believed, I, I thought, I guess Catholics believed it and it's like, no, they don't believe in that stuff or orthodox like, so, so I think because I was just ignorant to what Christians actually believed, and, and I It was probably like this for you in your church, like you were taught, right?

Doctrine. You weren't taught the history of Christian theology.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, and I was never given options of

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: No.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Christians have landed here, here or here.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Go. Yeah. Go, go pick one,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, yeah. Or like, or go, go research 'em. Like understand when each of them, you know, 'cause Yeah. like the rapture is what, 1823 or 33? I don't remember.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Something like that.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah. it's like this is recent history. I mean, this is crazy recent and Well, it's like left, Left behind.

though.

You know? It's like no, that's all, that's fan fiction. I mean, this [01:00:00] is not theology.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: fiction

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: bad. fan fiction.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yes. Very bad. What do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in the us? It.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Um, oh, the main one. Okay. Let me get like, I guess meta right? Like, um, the, the, the idea that a Christian should have any power. That's not Jesus. Jesus was not interested in any power. So the idea that a nation can be Christian is, is ridiculous. Like, um, the idea that you should have any, like, yeah, any power.

P power is, is not something that [01:01:00] Jesus was interested in, in the traditional understanding of power. Power is found in powerlessness. Um, and so I think if, if you, if they understood power, their, their theology would start this, this is probably Luther actually the theology would start, and I don't love Luther, but, um, power starts at the foot of the cross.

A theology of below rather than a theology of above, um, power needs to be flipped on its head. You find power in only serving. Others. Um, so that would solve the, the ability for the Pete Hegg sets and the cash patels or whoever to like use religion to wield as a tool of power. wouldn't work because Christians would be like, well that's, that's literally by definition not what our religion can do.

You got the wrong guy.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: [01:02:00] It's very Anabaptist of you.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Well, probably yeah. In terms of that, right, like I, I definitely have a lot of respect for the Anabaptists. Um, there's a lot of, like all the, you know, the Mennonites come from that, that tradition, right? That, uh, the Amish, we have a lot of Mennonites here in Northern California. Um,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: yeah, I speak at a Mennonite church twice a month now.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah, all lovely people. A lot of the farmers actually that I know from the farmer's market, a lot of 'em are Mennonite.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Oh, interesting.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah, like the new school ones, right? Like they're the, um,

'cause I've been, I've actually, I've actually been back in, um, Pennsylvania a lot, like three or four times and like, to drive around and get little history lessons on like the old order Mennonites versus the, like, in the old order, Amish.

And like, some of them can, um, some of 'em can, they, they have to use scooters because a bicycle can be considered [01:03:00] power. Like you could pick up momentum or something like, so some of 'em have to use scooters. Some of 'em can use bikes

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Oh, well.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: like, some like the, the different wagons, like some of 'em are, if they're covered, that means they're married.

You can't be, you can't be unmarried with a covered wagon, has to be an uncovered wagon. like, oh, it's wild.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: So that's hardcore the way I, 'cause I've, I've, you know, I come from mainstream megachurch, evangelical

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: have like, Yeah. I don't resonate with That,

tribe trying to find other tribes and have actually really loved the Mennonites. But

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: it's not what you're describing that's not.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: all. Yeah, that's the old order stuff.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Um, the way I describe, 'cause people are like, Mennonites, like, what is that?

And I'm like, all right. So imagine the Anabaptist is like a spectrum. The Mennonites are like the progressive Anabaptist. It's kind of like, like that's my way. They Probably plenty of people would say that's not. accurate, but like, that's the way I've made sense of it. 'cause you have the Amish or like much more on the conservative end

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Right,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: of stereotypically.

But yeah, the, [01:04:00] the whole issue with power is fascinating as we're watching Christ and dumb erode around us, right.

Where power has been the default setting for 1700 years and now it's starting to, you know, all the cracks are showing where it's like, oh, this isn't what we thought it was. It's like, how do we exist with power in a completely different way?

I think is a standing conversation.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. Yeah. I think it would change how we viewed the intersection of politics and faith and culture and all that. Like, yeah. I mean, some of these Christians are just like, if you got the good stuff, you don't have to try that hard, like, let people live. They'll come to you if you got that, that good stuff.

And it's like, no, you gotta, you, you, the gospel being like beat over the head with people doesn't make sense. Like it's good news. You don't have to convince them of it.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, Yeah. If, if I have to scare you with hell to get you to agree with me, my view of Jesus probably isn't that good

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: It's probably not great.

Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: if the only [01:05:00] reason people would want it. 'cause they don't wanna burn.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: You're Not offering something really. compelling. So

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Not really.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: worth, worth examining. What is something blowing your mind right now that you're learning?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Um, do you wanna go optimistic or pessimistic?

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Let's go optimistic.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Okay.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: keep it upbeat.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: keep it upbeat. Um, my daughter has gotten into, she, she for a long time wanted to be a marine biologist, and now she's like talking about space a lot. And I think just like about, like, just learning factoids about the universe and just the, um, it's blowing my mind how little can be known by humanity at this current.

Like, it blows my mind like how vast the universe is. Um, the one thing specifically that I can't, I can't [01:06:00] wrap my mind around is that the expansion of the universe implies expanding into something in my mind. And so like, what does it, what does that mean, right? Like.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: What was there before that? It's coming into?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah, like, so it's, we're here.

What's here?

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Right? Like, um, another thing totally ran, totally randomly. Um, I heard, uh, I don't know if this is true, but like some people, I mean like people who are blind don't, don't see black. This is not related to space. They see what the same thing you see out of your elbow and that, that was how it was described to me.

And I, I couldn't experientially understand what that meant. Blew my mind.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Okay. What,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Right? Think so.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: what?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: blind, like you see black, right? You close your eyes and if it's pitch black, you see black, right?

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: That's not what someone born [01:07:00] blind experiences. They see, they, they experience the same thing like that. You would experience the vision from a non vision entity, a non vision appendage or something.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: So you're saying They they see nothing,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Nothing.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: not black,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: they see nothing. I couldn't under, I couldn't understand. I didn't,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Wow, this is, this is some deep thoughts after a gloss of wine.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: it's not, like, a blind person, just think of like a, think of like a living being that doesn't see anything. Like what is that experience like? I don't know.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: This is inter, like, one of the things I do sometimes on like wine experiences with people is I'll ask 'em to like, describe the color yellow to someone who's blind.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: you realize how hard that is of like,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: it's impossible

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: would you describe this to someone who's never seen colors, never seen the color yellow.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Mm-hmm.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: and it gets you to start thinking about your senses differently of, right?

Like, how do you perceive anything? Um, so [01:08:00] Yeah.

I don't know where I'm going with that, but the elbow thing really th threw me for a loop.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Like, it's like, it's like, describe the taste of yellow. It's like, that's like the like. That's what, how could someone, because like your, like your eyes don't go away when you close your eyes. Right? Like you're seeing, seeing the back of your without much light coming through or any light if you're in a perfectly dark room.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, like when people answer this, they usually will talk about the sun. Like, well, it's like the sun's. And I'm like, but They've never seen the sun.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: seen it,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: So how do you describe the sun to some, like you would describe, maybe you felt the heat of the sun or, you know what I mean? Like you have to use other senses because you can't use the way you, you think about it.

So it is, you

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: But

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: going back to space, you know, the thing that I've, I've mentioned this before, the thing that,

boggles my mind with all the scientific stuff we've got, and I mean quantum, you know, theory and all. I mean, so [01:09:00] like stuff that's like amazing that we can figure out. The majority of the universe, we just call dark matter or dark energy and we don't know what it is.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: don't know what it's

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: it's a big percentage. Just chalk it up to dark energy or

dark

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah. It's dark matter. we

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: What

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: don't really know What and I'm like, the majority of what's out there, we don't know what it is. it's dark matter what, that's what, that's the label we call it. 'cause we don't really know what it is. I'm like, that's wild.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. We don't know anything.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I mean, we're like mapping the brain and doing some cool things and we don't like the majority of what's out there.

We're like, I don't know what that is. It's,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: with the ocean though too. The ocean trips me out, I think more than the, um, maybe not more than space, but it trips me out to think about it gives me the, I don't like it like that, that titan. I was like, you'll never see me down there dying of that. Like, that's never gonna happen to me.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: you're not gonna die in a submarine.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Unless someone shoved me in there and made me go in.

[01:10:00] That's the only submarine I go in is the NEMO ride at Disneyland.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I hate the Nemo ride. I'm out.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: but

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: terrible.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: like it, but I'll go in it if I have to, but I'm not

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: That's amazing.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I'm not scuba, I'm not doing nothing. No. The ocean is scary, dude.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I just got a fear of the ocean. Duly noted.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: blows my mind before we, before we move on to the next one or whatever you're doing, you know those in, in Nemo the, um, that fish with the light

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah. Yeah. Angler fish.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: angr fish can fit in your hand.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Dude, that one that died blew my mind recently.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I, live my whole life thinking it was this massive thing that I gotta be afraid of

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I'm a hundred percent with you, and they, my wife was like, oh, I'm so sad about this angler fish side. I'm like, those things are nasty, ugly. She's like, no, it's cute. I'm like, it's not cute. Then she showed me the size of it and I'm like, wait, that is, that fish?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: totally is not what I ever imagined.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Which actually makes sense. Being that deep, you're not gonna have this huge animal.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: That's a cute little thing, man.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah, [01:11:00] poor little Anglo fish got a bad wrap.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah, he did, man, I feel bad about how we hated on it.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I totally hated on it for my whole life.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Oh, that's amazing. All right. What's something you're excited about right now?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Um, my farm,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Star New Valley?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: started Valley in real life. It's called Happy Woods Farm. Um, we just planted 30 fruit trees. We have 48 now. And

this

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: what trees?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: uh, we've got various plums, peaches, nectarines, pear, olive, pomegranate, almond or almond as they say out here. Um, I'm missing some apple.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Wow.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah, we're doing that.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: he got a ton over there.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. Farmer Matt. I'm excited about that. yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Is this like you're working at sunrise out there on the farm type deal? Or

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Depends on the day. Yeah. So I've got choir and I've got the [01:12:00] farm, and then I've got a, um, I'm working with a sourdough company as well. Um,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: when? When you've got spare time.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: when I've got spare time, when I'm living my real start valley life, um, I'm excited that this is the end of the dance season. Um, all the competitions are done and my daughter has two more.

She's not gonna dance as a senior, she says. So she's gonna dance as a sophomore and a junior. And then that's, it's always, it's exciting to watch 'em dance, but it's also exciting to be done with the season. 'cause they're long.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah, And we've got three nights of the week we have regular dance things and that's not when they have performances. Right. So then it's like we have a performance on Saturday and you

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: yeah. Yeah. How old, how is your daughter that dances,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: She's 13,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Okay.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: so she's, she's in eighth grade and, uh, does, does club dance, does school dance. I mean, it's like,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: and this is a racket.

These guys have [01:13:00] got to be raking in the money.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: the, it's,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: it's

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I'm in the wrong line of work because I look at how this business model works and I'm like, you guys have got to be rolling in the dough.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I mean, yeah, you could do like, I think the other day it was like, oh, gonna do an intensive in the summer. For one day. It was like $400 for a day. One day. I was like, how many kids are showing up to that? I'm pretty good at math. Like, woo shit.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, yeah. She's like, yeah.

if I wanted, if I wanna do a solo dance, I can do a, I can try out for a solo dance and then at this thing, and then it's, you know, $800 to do.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yep.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: To, to add on to what we're all, you know, it's

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yep.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: keeps stacking. It's like, gosh,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I need, I need everyone to buy five copies of my book,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: support support Matt's daughter's dance career by buying his book. I love it.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: lot of copies of my [01:14:00] book.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Alright, we've covered a lot. Is there anything that we have omitted that you're like, look, we gotta talk about this real quick before we wrap up this episode, otherwise it wouldn't be complete.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Uh, are you wearing that hat 'cause you like it or because you're a Yankees fan?

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Uh, I like it because I'm a Yankees fan?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Oh, I'm a Red Sox fan, so I'm

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Oof.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: world that like, that we can come together in unity though we are diametrically opposed to each other.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: We are. Yeah. And

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: I have a good, friend who's an Arsenal fan and I'm a Tottenham fan and they're gonna probably win the league and we're probably gonna get relegated

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: what's it. Right now the Yankees are playing the Red Sox in a series.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Red Sox kind of suck. I heard

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah. They're not good this year, and I'll be in Boston next week, and I will not be bringing any of my Yankee gear.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: nine and 15. God, red Sox are terrible.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah, they're bad. It's not a, it's not been a great season, [01:15:00] but I almost got beat up by a woman when I was in Boston the last time, so I'm not gonna bring my inky gear this time. Mm-hmm.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: They take it seriously. I lived in Providence, which is kind of in between, you get a lot of Red Sox fan, but you still get a lot of Yankees fans. And I've, I, I've always liked sports, but I've never been serious. Like, I, I take them semi seriously when I'm into 'em, and I just like, it's like a religion in some places.

Like, it's like serious business.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, That's what I realized. Like for me, this is. Like a hobby. I enjoy watching the Yankees, I enjoy the history, I enjoy whatever. But I was like, oh, this lady wants to fight me. This isn't, this is something different for her. Like,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: it. It is something, yeah. And I've never be, I've, I've never even, like, there are, I've never been like a hater on other teams, like even the rival teams. I don't care what ha Like I've always thought it was weird. Like, I'm like, well, shouldn't you just care about what your team's doing? Like if you guys, like, if the Red Sox [01:16:00] don't win the World Series, I'm not gonna be like, oh shoot, the Dodgers won again.

Like, it's probably not great for baseball, but like, whatever, like,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: see, to me the rivalry is fun. And I actually use this analogy to explain, um, like the, the, the Samaritans, right? With the Jews of like, they were hated, but they're actually pretty similar. If you look at what they believe, like to me, I can look at a Red Sox fan and go like, oh, you're the enemy, but you're also a baseball fan, right?

So like I have more in common with a Red Sox fan than I do with someone who only watches football.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: That's true.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: So you may not be my enemy. Right. But like you're watching a whole different sport. Like I actually have more in common with the Red Sox fan.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: When, when, when you, if you're really into something, wouldn't you want rivalries? Doesn't that

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Totally. It makes it more fun. Yeah.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. So if you're, but if you take it so seriously that you're gonna beat someone up, you're not having fun anymore. You miss the whole point.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: You know what, Matt?

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: have been

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I agree with us.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: La

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Yeah, I,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: San Francisco Giants, like they have a big rivalry, California, [01:17:00] there's been people killed.

Like, I, what? These players get traded from one to the other. I remember when Johnny Damon went to the Yankees, I was like, they, they don't have the same allegiances that we do.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: I remember, I can't remember which comedian it. was, but they're, they were like breaking this down. They're like, so let's say you have a star player and then they get to their team. Now, now you don't trade. They're like, you're essentially rooting on a jersey. you

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: are cheering for a jersey. That's all you're cheering for,

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: That's all you're doing.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Doesn't matter who's in it. You're cheering for a piece, a, a piece of a uniform.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah,

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: was like, that's a funny way of like, how at the end of the day it's

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: that. That, that's true. Yeah. Wow. Well, I forgive you for being a Yankees fan, and

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: see Jesus has brought us together.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Jesus has, only Jesus could have done this.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Well, hey, this has been a fascinating conversation. Uh, I think I might go play this video game. I'm not normally an [01:18:00] apocalyptic guy because I feel like my life feels apocalyptic enough already. But I'm kind of intrigued and I wanna see, uh, how I respond to the intro. The way you described it, I think it sounds super interesting.

So thanks for the conversation. Thanks for going wherever you need to go, whether it's theology or video games or Tolkien or whatever and, and just kind of living out your faith in that way. And, uh, and thanks for spending some time on Cabernet and pray with us.

matthew-j--distefano_1_04-23-2026_110858: Yeah. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

jeremy_1_04-23-2026_110857: Alright, everybody, you can go out and buy Matt's book, support his daughter's dance career and go check out the video game for yourself and maybe develop a little bit more empathy in the process.

We'll see you all in the next episode of Cabernet and pray. I.

Saints, Sinners, and Clickers (with Matthew Distefano) | Ep. 74

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